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| 04:53 | < Turaiel> | Anyone happen to have racket experience? |
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| 05:08 | <@Azash> | I can bang some pots and pans together if that helps |
| 05:12 | < Turaiel> | Heh, not quite |
| 05:14 | <&McMartin> | Only the tiniest bit, but I can forward questions to people with more experience if it comes to that. |
| 05:14 | <&McMartin> | (I assume you mean the successor to PLT Scheme here?) |
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| 05:26 | < Turaiel> | Correct. I guess I'll just be giving up for the night though |
| 05:26 | < Turaiel> | I'm writing a parser for class, and delaying execution is difficult |
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| 06:22 | <&McMartin> | Turaiel: Are you using racket-specific stuff here or the stock delay-force from r5rs? |
| 06:22 | < Turaiel> | I'm using the racket/promise package |
| 06:22 | <&McMartin> | OK |
| 06:22 | <&McMartin> | I know the theory behind promises from Clojure; I'll take a quick look and see which paradigm they match and if it's one I recognize. |
| 06:23 | <&McMartin> | I'm guessing this is one of the kinds where futures are involved |
| 06:25 | <&McMartin> | Mmm |
| 06:25 | <&McMartin> | OK, this is beyond my ken. I get the theory, but this looks like it's intended to be used in very specific ways and they aren't the ones I'm used to. |
| 06:26 | < Turaiel> | My major problem is that I have each of my expressions wrapped in (delay), but when I go to (force), I can only force one level of nesting |
| 06:28 | <&McMartin> | Hrm. A quick look at the docs implies that you may want "lazy" instead of "force". |
| 06:28 | <&McMartin> | lazy seems to auto-force the last expression in its body if that result is a promise. |
| 06:29 | < Turaiel> | lazy replaces delay, not force |
| 06:29 | <&McMartin> | Yes. |
| 06:29 | <&McMartin> | Sorry. "lazy" instead of "delay" |
| 06:29 | < Turaiel> | Right, but then the force only works on everything in the top level of the lazy call |
| 06:30 | < Turaiel> | Which means that anything lazy nested within it will remain a promise |
| 06:30 | <&McMartin> | You shouldn't be turning literally everything into a promise, as I understand promises. |
| 06:30 | < Turaiel> | Oh? |
| 06:30 | < Turaiel> | At the moment all of my expressions result in promises |
| 06:30 | <&McMartin> | A promise is roughly the equivalent of a thread, not any given operation in some other thread. |
| 06:31 | <&McMartin> | (Note that "promise" is heavily, heavily overloaded as a term; JavaScript has a notion of "promises" that meet the academic definition of promises and are nothing at all like this) |
| 06:31 | < Turaiel> | I'm currently trying to implement if |
| 06:31 | < Turaiel> | The problem is that the true and false results of if are evaluated before if is. |
| 06:31 | <&McMartin> | Right, which is why if is traditionally a special form. |
| 06:32 | <&McMartin> | If you're doing it with promises, you pass in a single promise whose forcing computes the *entire* value, for true and for false |
| 06:32 | <&McMartin> | And then force the appropriate one as needed. |
| 06:32 | <&McMartin> | So any given evaluation of this is two delays, one force, one drops off. |
| 06:33 | <&McMartin> | (delay and force, alone, are actually part of R5RS and are not unique to racket. All the variations in racket/promise however are unique to it.) |
| 06:35 | < Turaiel> | Here's what I have currently: |
| 06:35 | < Turaiel> | ((force (let ([a (thunk $4)] [b (thunk $5)]) (if $3 (delay a) (delay b))))) |
| 06:35 | < Turaiel> | Where $4 is the result if true, and $5 is the result if false |
| 06:35 | < Turaiel> | However, calling (if (= 1 2) (write -1) (write -2)) results in -1-2 |
| 06:36 | <&McMartin> | What does (thunk x), and what distinguishes it from delay? |
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| 06:37 | <&McMartin> | Like, I would normally think of it as (let ((a (delay $true)) (b (delay $false))) (if $cond (force a) (force b))), to make up some syntax. |
| 06:38 | < Turaiel> | thunk is a lambda with no arguments |
| 06:38 | <&McMartin> | But of course whatever fills that in has to not evaluate *its* arguments |
| 06:38 | <&McMartin> | if *has* to be a macro, or the delay has to happen during the call. |
| 06:38 | < Turaiel> | This is my problem |
| 06:38 | < Turaiel> | This is why I was delaying all expressions |
| 06:39 | <&McMartin> | Yeah, you only have to delay the top. |
| 06:39 | <&McMartin> | By which I mean, the direct arguments to if, at the time you expand if. |
| 06:39 | <&McMartin> | And then if forces the appropriate argument right there. |
| 06:39 | <&McMartin> | If the if is part of some delayed expression, the forcing is also delayed. |
| 06:40 | < Turaiel> | Then I don't know where I need to delay here |
| 06:40 | <&McMartin> | I would do the delaying inside the let. |
| 06:40 | < Turaiel> | Right, like (let ([a (delay $4)] [b (delay $5)]) (if $3 (force a) (force b))) |
| 06:40 | <&McMartin> | a and b should not be thunks; they should be promises. |
| 06:41 | < Turaiel> | But that still results in -1-2 |
| 06:41 | < Turaiel> | Because $4 and $5 are evaluated before they're in the delay |
| 06:41 | <&McMartin> | "$4" is syntax that is new to me. |
| 06:41 | < Turaiel> | That's just the grammar syntax |
| 06:41 | < Turaiel> | [(OP IF boole exp exp CP) (let ([a (delay $4)] [b (delay $5)]) (if $3 (force a) (force b)))] |
| 06:41 | <&McMartin> | Erm |
| 06:41 | <&McMartin> | If (delay (write 2)) is writing 2, your copy of "delay" is broken. |
| 06:42 | <&McMartin> | My guess is that some part of your macro is not macroing hard enough. |
| 06:42 | < Turaiel> | The parser that we're writing evaluates everything as soon as it's read I believe |
| 06:43 | < Turaiel> | So as soon as it sees (write 2) it evaluates it and then hands it off to the if |
| 06:43 | < Turaiel> | Where it then gets "delayed" |
| 06:43 | <&McMartin> | ... is "delay" part of your parser? |
| 06:43 | < Turaiel> | no |
| 06:43 | <&McMartin> | Your parser is too eager. "delay" must *also* be a special form. |
| 06:43 | <&McMartin> | Anything whose evaluation rules are not exactly like functions *must* be some kind of macro or special form. |
| 06:44 | <&McMartin> | This is why they are "special" forms. |
| 06:44 | < Turaiel> | I can't implement delay, as it is not part of the specified grammar |
| 06:44 | < Turaiel> | I can only use the built in one |
| 06:44 | < Turaiel> | It works well if ALL expressions are delayed |
| 06:44 | < Turaiel> | But then I cannot nest expressions |
| 06:45 | <&McMartin> | You either need a custom evaluator or a less eager parser. |
| 06:45 | <&McMartin> | "Keep forcing until it's not a promise anymore", basically. |
| 06:45 | < Turaiel> | I cannot change the parser, only the grammar |
| 06:46 | <&McMartin> | It sounds like they're putting you under extremely specific constraints here and I'm not going to do your homework for you =P |
| 06:46 | < Turaiel> | Of course not |
| 06:47 | <&McMartin> | But I will say that the general solution here is in fact "change the parser" |
| 06:47 | <&McMartin> | "if", when parsed, generally will not evaluate its second and third arguments. |
| 07:04 | < Turaiel> | Thanks for the help you could offer |
| 07:04 | < Turaiel> | Perhaps I can code reasonable after sleeping |
| 07:26 | < Turaiel> | McMartin, as an update, it looks like I was on the right track at one point, but I missed a spot when forcing |
| 07:26 | < Turaiel> | Everything appears to be working now |
| 07:27 | <&McMartin> | Hooray then |
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| 15:24 | <&jerith> | Well, my conference talk seemed to go well. |
| 15:25 | <&jerith> | I should probably put my slides up at some point. |
| 15:41 | <@Tarinaky> | So as nice as it is that Ruby provides such an easy interface for writing bindings around dll extensions |
| 15:41 | <@Tarinaky> | JESUS CHRIST Ruby is slow. |
| 15:42 | <@iospace> | lolruby |
| 15:51 | <@Tarinaky> | Preeeety much. |
| 15:51 | <@Tarinaky> | Beats working for a living though. |
| 16:43 | <@iospace> | heh |
| 17:27 | <@Tarinaky> | Also: someone at work was saying how people should have to start programming by learning C |
| 17:27 | <@Tarinaky> | And 'working their way up' |
| 17:27 | <@Tarinaky> | Like wtf |
| 17:28 | < Julius> | Psh. Obviously should start with machine code. |
| 17:29 | <@macdjord> | Julius: Hand-built logic gates. |
| 17:29 | <&ToxicFrog> | Tarinaky: this is a sadly common perspective. |
| 17:30 | < Julius> | macdjord: Made with silicon hand-extracted from the earth. |
| 17:30 | <@macdjord> | Julius: After creating their own universe, of course. |
| 17:31 | <@froztbyte> | M-x butterly with the magnification modifier? |
| 17:31 | <@Tarinaky> | Trying to explain that even in prestigious British universities, when it comes time to teach a /second year/ module on C |
| 17:31 | <@Tarinaky> | And you /still/ get floods of crap on Facebook along the lines of: "My 300 line C program segfaults. Fix it for me." |
| 17:31 | <@Tarinaky> | "What's a gdb?" |
| 17:32 | <@macdjord> | ToxicFrog: To be fair - C experiance /is/ useful. I often draw on my understanding of C to deduce what a proper, high-level language is actually doing 'under the hood', which in turn informs me on what is or is not fundamentally possible. |
| 17:33 | <@Tarinaky> | If you already know how to program! |
| 17:33 | <@macdjord> | Tarinaky: Yes. It is not a good language for teaching the fundamentals of programming. |
| 18:11 | <@TheWatcher> | When I was an undergrad our first year languages where MIPS assembler, Edinburgh SML, LISP, and C. |
| 18:11 | <@TheWatcher> | I was glad I already knew how to program back then >.> |
| 18:13 | <@Tarinaky> | Insert joke about how long ago that was. |
| 18:13 | <@Tarinaky> | Ahah, found one. |
| 18:13 | <@Tarinaky> | When you were an undergrad, Nelson Mandeela was an internationally renowned terrorist. |
| 18:14 | <@TheWatcher> | Close! |
| 18:15 | <@TheWatcher> | (I started university in 1995) |
| 18:16 | <@Tarinaky> | When you started Uni, Star Trek was still good. |
| 18:16 | <@Tarinaky> | Mir was still in orbit. |
| 18:16 | <@Tarinaky> | America was still operating the Space Shuttle program. |
| 18:17 | <@Tarinaky> | Concorde provided commercial transatlantic supercruise services. |
| 18:18 | <@TheWatcher> | Are you trying to make me feel old? |
| 18:18 | <@Tarinaky> | And American had never gone into space from Baikonur |
| 18:18 | <@Tarinaky> | *And an American citizen |
| 18:18 | <@Tarinaky> | I'm just working my way through Wikipedia's 1995 page |
| 18:22 | <@Tarinaky> | And the Right Hon. Harold Wilson was still alive. |
| 18:23 | <&ToxicFrog> | macdjord: C experience is absolutely useful and I recommend learning it at some point, yes. What I object to is teaching it as an intro to programming language. |
| 18:23 | <&ToxicFrog> | And I'm sick to death of having to add that qualification every goddamn time. |
| 18:24 | <@Tarinaky> | It's because you keep opining about how useful C knowledge is during conversations that're specifically about an intro to programming languages. |
| 18:24 | <&ToxicFrog> | Tarinaky: what? |
| 18:24 | <&ToxicFrog> | Tarinaky: did you mean to direct that at macdjord? |
| 18:24 | <@Tarinaky> | "Also: someone at work was saying how people should have to start programming by learning C" |
| 18:24 | <@Tarinaky> | 'start programming' >.> |
| 18:24 | <&ToxicFrog> | Yes.... |
| 18:25 | <&ToxicFrog> | I have no idea what you are getting at. |
| 18:25 | <@Tarinaky> | Myeh. |
| 18:25 | <&ToxicFrog> | You said that someone at work said C should be used as a teaching language. I said that that's sadly common. |
| 18:25 | <@Tarinaky> | I dunno I'm tired. |
| 18:25 | <&ToxicFrog> | macdjord then went on about how C experience is useful, prompting me to add the qualifier. |
| 18:25 | <@Tarinaky> | I'm going for a shower. |
| 18:25 | <@Tarinaky> | Oh. |
| 18:25 | <@Tarinaky> | Then I am confused. |
| 18:26 | <@Tarinaky> | Ignore me. |
| 18:26 | <&ToxicFrog> | Which I am sick of having to add every time I say "C should not be used as an introductory programming language" |
| 18:31 | | macdjord is now known as macdjord|out |
| 18:35 | <@Tarinaky> | Okay. |
| 18:35 | <@Tarinaky> | I am sorry. |
| 18:35 | <@Tarinaky> | I'm tired. |
| 18:50 | < RchrdB> | I suspect that everything that C does which is good pedagogically is done better by learning any form of assembly. |
| 18:50 | < RchrdB> | By all means teach it later as a prereq for your systems programming classes or whatever |
| 19:02 | <@Tarinaky> | Programming fictitious microcontrollers in Machine Code was a lot of fun in A-level electronics. |
| 19:02 | <@Tarinaky> | Was my first real taste of programming in anger as well. |
| 19:03 | <@Tarinaky> | By which I mean, at the time I was a full-time student. So my schoolwork was what I 'did for a living'... kinda. |
| 19:03 | <@Tarinaky> | As opposed to doing it in my bedroom because I wanted to make some shitty RPG that never got past hello world. |
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| 21:41 | <&jerith> | Tarinaky: Most people's shitty RPGs don't even get *to* hello world. |
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| 22:09 | <@Alek> | truth |
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| 22:57 | <@Tarinaky> | jerith: Not the point. |
| 22:57 | <@Tarinaky> | jerith: And my shitty RPGs still totally don't get past hello world even today. |
| 22:58 | <&jeroud> | Tarinaky: I know what you meant. But personal projects that get started, even if they go nowhere, are valuable in a different kind of way. |
| 23:01 | <&jeroud> | Also, I've always seen "in anger" as "for a specific purpose that has importance beyond merely being a vehicle for doing a thing" rather than "get paid to do a thing". |
| 23:01 | <@Tarinaky> | Well, the specific purpose is getting qualifications. |
| 23:02 | <@Tarinaky> | But maybe you're right that I'm using the wrong word. |
| 23:04 | <&jeroud> | Tarinaky: No, I'm saying that your use is reasonable and qualification about it being kind of "what you did for a living" was unnecessary. |
| 23:05 | <&jeroud> | The original "in anger" was regarding weapon use. |
| 23:06 | <@Tarinaky> | I'm bad with metaphores. |
| 23:06 | <&jeroud> | It differentiates "on the rifle range" from "on the battlefield". |
| 23:06 | <@Tarinaky> | And I know. |
| 23:07 | <&jeroud> | Or, more pointedly, "at an inanimate target" from "at a sentient being". |
| 23:07 | <&jeroud> | "For real" from "just playing". |
| 23:08 | <&jeroud> | I've written OCaml in anger, even though it's a personal project that nobody uses for anything. |
| 23:18 | | * Tarinaky blinks |
| 23:18 | <@Tarinaky> | I'm cloning this repo |
| 23:18 | <@Tarinaky> | But nothing's appearing |
| 23:18 | <@Tarinaky> | WTF? |
| 23:19 | <@Tarinaky> | $ git clone --recurse-submodules https://github.com/Tarinaky/.vim.git --verbose --progress |
| 23:19 | <@Tarinaky> | Cloning into '.vim'... |
| 23:19 | <@Tarinaky> | And then it just returns |
| 23:19 | <@Tarinaky> | o.O |
| 23:33 | | * Tarinaky arghs at bim |
| 23:33 | <@Tarinaky> | *vim |
| 23:33 | <@Tarinaky> | "Undefined vatiable: c:" |
| 23:33 | <@Tarinaky> | Yes. |
| 23:33 | <@Tarinaky> | Because you're running on Windows dear. |
| 23:33 | <@Tarinaky> | That's what a Windows path looks like. |
| 23:34 | <@Tarinaky> | Take your fucking alzheimer's meds. |
| 23:34 | <@gnolam> | Well... if you're dealing with vatiables, you're answering directly to the Pope, so... |
| 23:34 | <@Tarinaky> | I'm not using a fucking variable. |
| 23:35 | <@Tarinaky> | I just want to tell it the location of the ctags binary it should be invoking. |
| 23:35 | <@Tarinaky> | :let g:tagbar_ctags_bin=c:\ctags.exe |
| 23:35 | <&McMartin> | If you're in "git bash" it believe that C:\foo\bar\baz is in fact /c/foo/bar/baz |
| 23:35 | <@Tarinaky> | E121: Undefined variable c: |
| 23:35 | <@gnolam> | Who said anything about variables? :) |
| 23:35 | <@Tarinaky> | McMartin: I gave up on git and just found a local copy :/ |
| 23:35 | <@Tarinaky> | My keyboard is broken and I'm tired. |
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| 23:56 | <&ToxicFrog> | Also, use forward slashes everywhere, windows understands them just fine and then you don't run into escaping issues |
| --- Log closed Sat Oct 04 00:00:51 2014 |