| --- Log opened Tue Sep 30 00:00:53 2014 |
| 00:41 | | Derakon[AFK] is now known as Derakon |
| 00:54 | <&McMartin> | NURBS. Not just for breakfast anymore. |
| 01:00 | <&McMartin> | froztbyte: https://www.flickr.com/photos/vonguard/sets/72157647744260599/ |
| 01:03 | <&McMartin> | (That's a photoset from the hackathon yesterday) |
| 01:03 | <@Reiv> | McMartin: How goeth the hackathon? |
| 01:03 | <&McMartin> | It was yesterday |
| 01:04 | <&McMartin> | They've been at it for awhile, they'll continue to be at it; the hackathon was "let's get everyone involved in a room all at once" so I was just kind of horning in |
| 01:04 | <&McMartin> | Which was OK because one of the things they needed by surprise was a Java developer, and I'm close enough to one that I can fake it~ |
| 01:05 | <@Reiv> | haha what |
| 01:05 | <@Reiv> | how do you surprise yourself with java |
| 01:05 | <&McMartin> | Recall the context; resurrecting a program from the 1980s |
| 01:06 | <@Reiv> | right |
| 01:06 | <@Reiv> | I did not know java was popular back then |
| 01:06 | <&McMartin> | "We need three or four Java developers" is not usually a thing you expect, but we ended up needing to expand the recreation of the old QuantumLink server code, and the reimplementation turned out to have been in Java, so... |
| 01:06 | <&McMartin> | It did not exist until 1995. |
| 01:06 | <@Reiv> | Precisely why I did not think it was popular in the 80s~ |
| 01:06 | <@Reiv> | Oh I see, it was for emulationarily purposes |
| 01:06 | <&McMartin> | Pretty much |
| 01:07 | <&McMartin> | And it turns out that there are known incompletenesses on the server side, with all records lost to the team |
| 01:07 | <&McMartin> | But people at that thing have enough pull that one of the products of the hackathon were "lists of header files to ask the CEO of AOL for" with what seemed like reasonable confidence that they'd either get them or get "sorry man, we can't find them either anymore" |
| 01:08 | <&McMartin> | Things to apparently credit AOL for: their leadership was in it for the long haul. They're the same guys as they were back when all this was being invented in the first place. |
| 01:09 | <&McMartin> | They have done very little in my active timespan that I can truly respect. But I can respect that. |
| 01:11 | <@Reiv> | holy jeez |
| 01:11 | <@Reiv> | That's kind of an impressive thing to be able to ask a CEO, and even more that a business might actually /have/ it |
| 01:12 | <@froztbyte> | haha |
| 01:12 | <&McMartin> | Actually, the original original guy stepped down some years back but is still sort of involved, it seems. |
| 01:12 | <@froztbyte> | not....as much as you'd think :) |
| 01:12 | <&McMartin> | Also hilarious |
| 01:12 | <@froztbyte> | there's a couple of places on the internet where, if you know who to speak to, you can do/get some really impressive things |
| 01:13 | <&McMartin> | Chip Morningstar wrote the assembler they used to write the client code for all this |
| 01:13 | <@froztbyte> | between 2 IRC channels I'm in, 70-odd % of the world's routable internet is controlled |
| 01:13 | <&McMartin> | It's a neat little block-structured macro cross-assembler that ran on a VAX running BSD. |
| 01:13 | <&McMartin> | He named it MACROSS. |
| 01:13 | <&McMartin> | "Is that as in Super-Dimensional Fortress?" |
| 01:13 | <&McMartin> | "Heck yes." |
| 01:13 | <@froztbyte> | McMartin: :) |
| 01:14 | <@froztbyte> | bah, I should sleep |
| 01:14 | | * froztbyte leaves the pictures open to look tomorrow |
| 01:37 | | * Vornicus puts his faith in Chip Morningstar! |
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| 08:01 | < simon_> | does anyone here know how to create a better keybinding in Mac OS X for backslash? right now it's alt+shift+7 and doing LaTeX this way is severely depressing. |
| 08:02 | < simon_> | oh, it seems there's a Keyboard settings menu. I'll explore that. |
| 08:02 | <@Azash> | simon_: To start with, navigate to gentoo.org ... |
| 08:05 | < simon_> | heh |
| 08:06 | | * simon_ runs Arch on his own computer. the mac is just one that's lying in the living room for browsing the web and playing games. |
| 08:06 | < simon_> | my roommate wanted to TeX on it. |
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| 10:24 | | * McMartin looks at backscroll |
| 10:24 | <&McMartin> | What |
| 10:24 | <&McMartin> | Since I spend 98% of my time in OS X on Terminal, I can say with some confidence that I have never encountered one that didn't just have a backslash key. Where are you getting this alt-shift-7 thing? |
| 10:24 | <&McMartin> | (By which I think I mean "can you post a photo of your keyboard, because seriously, wtf) |
| 10:25 | <&McMartin> | I don't actually doubt your word, mind you, because I have been called in to troubleshoot a case of "I have been asked to press Ctrl-Alt-Del to log in and I do not have a delete key on this keyboard" |
| 10:25 | <&McMartin> | And they provided, for the pics-or-it-didn't-happen reply. |
| 10:26 | <&McMartin> | This was nominally a Windows laptop even, I can't even |
| 10:26 | <@TheWatcher> | ... |
| 10:26 | <@TheWatcher> | Lemme guess, it's one of those where you need to hold down Fn+something to get Delete? |
| 10:26 | <&McMartin> | And when we went googling, so many models of laptops do this that I can't give a consistent answer. Some have it be Fn-shift-D, some have it be Fn-I, some have other things. |
| 10:27 | <&McMartin> | But whatever it was, they certainly couldn't have been arsed to label it *on* the keyboard. |
| 10:27 | <@TheWatcher> | Yeah, madness isn't it |
| 10:27 | | * TheWatcher eyes the latest bash patchery, sighs |
| 10:28 | <&McMartin> | ... it occurs to me that I should ask where the backslash goes on a UK keyboard, because there's no reason that it should be where it is on the US ones (where it is a double-sized key immediately above RETURN) |
| 10:28 | <@TheWatcher> | honestly, at this point I don't see why they don't just /remove the sodding environment-defined functions malarky/ and get the two people using the fucking feature to do something less insane |
| 10:28 | <@TheWatcher> | Yep, same on a UK keyboard |
| 10:28 | <&McMartin> | I said this when format string vulnerabilities first became a thing because of %n |
| 10:28 | <&McMartin> | "We need a --no-l33t-features flag in our configure scripts and possibly also in gcc" |
| 10:29 | <&McMartin> | And yeah |
| 10:29 | <&McMartin> | One of the products we ship includes pre-configured Linux images |
| 10:30 | <&McMartin> | Our solution to shellshock was to apply one of those patches that just wipes out the ability to define functions in the environment |
| 10:32 | <&McMartin> | Incidentally: The war is over. http://www.emacswiki.org/Evil |
| 10:35 | <@TheWatcher> | also idly, UK keybaord: http://fleet.starforge.co.uk/images/keyboard.jpg |
| 10:50 | <@Tarinaky> | McMartin: Backslash or Backspace? |
| 10:50 | <@Tarinaky> | Because '\' is to the right of shift and not in the same place as an American keyboard iirc. |
| 10:50 | <@Tarinaky> | Err, right of L-Shift |
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| 11:47 | <&McMartin> | Backslash was the key in question. |
| 11:48 | <@TheWatcher> | Oh, right, I read backspace... I obviously needed more tea |
| 11:56 | <@TheWatcher> | Wait, i put that in the past tense. |
| 11:56 | <@TheWatcher> | Still need more tea. |
| 11:59 | <@Tarinaky> | First feedback on getting <software project> running with the new graduate joining the team. |
| 11:59 | <@Tarinaky> | Seriously nervous. |
| 11:59 | <@Tarinaky> | I think I care too much :/ |
| 13:41 | | iospace is now known as ioffice_space |
| 13:55 | <@froztbyte> | Tarinaky: wut |
| 13:56 | <@froztbyte> | bad feedback? good feedback? nervous just because feedback? scared of new people? |
| 13:56 | | * froztbyte doesn't know how to parse the comment |
| 14:00 | <@Tarinaky> | Nervous because at the time there was no feedback yet. |
| 14:00 | <@Tarinaky> | Schroedinger's feedback |
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| 16:41 | <@Tarinaky> | Does anyone here know their way around Ruby's FFI? |
| 16:42 | <@Tarinaky> | I have a C file I'm compiling into a dll to see if it gives me any appreciable speed-up over a native Ruby implementation |
| 16:42 | <@Tarinaky> | I have a Ruby binding for the dll |
| 16:42 | <@Tarinaky> | However ffi_lib keeps complaining that it can't find the .dll |
| 16:42 | <@Tarinaky> | Even though it's right there. |
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| 17:14 | | * ioffice_space slips on for but a moment |
| 17:15 | < ioffice_space> | I have come to a conclusion regarding this code: ALL THE MAGIC NUMBERS |
| 17:15 | | * ioffice_space skips off |
| 17:15 | <&ToxicFrog> | Don't get poisoned! |
| 17:18 | < ioffice_space> | coworker agrees |
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| 17:26 | < ioffice_space> | oh, and the vendor's code has tabs T_T |
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| 18:23 | < ioffice_space> | so i joked with one of my co-workers: We should send Clifton (a mutual professor we had) after them |
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| 18:39 | <@macdjord> | ioffice_space: Tabs are fine. Honestly, I prefer them; each person can set their tab width to whatever the prefer. But it has to either be /all/ tabs or /all/ spaces; mixing them is just a horrible time for everybody. |
| 18:39 | <@Tamber> | ^ ++ |
| 18:40 | <&jeroud> | Tabs for indentation, spaces for alignment. |
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| 18:41 | <@macdjord> | jeroud: Okay, yes, that kind of mixing sd valid. What I meant is you souldn't switch between tab-indent and space-indent within the same file (or, better yet, same project). |
| 18:42 | <@macdjord> | Or worse, I've seen places where the indent size was 4 spaces, the tab size was 8, and indents were done with tabs /except that odd-level indents used 4 spaces to get the half-tab indent/. |
| 18:43 | <&jeroud> | I generally prefer spaces because so few people can properly configure their editors. |
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| 18:44 | <@Tamber> | I prefer tabs, because fuck you if you can't work your goddamn editor. |
| 18:44 | <@Tamber> | That said, I don't work on anything I have to share~ |
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| 18:53 | <@macdjord> | jeroud: Yes, but they can miscofigure their indent size as easily as anything else~ |
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| 19:09 | <&jeroud> | macdjord: Considering how many people can't even get basic consistent indentation right when most editors and IDEs ship with sensible defaults, there's no way I'd expect J Random Programmer to get tabs-for-indentation-spaces-for-alignment right. |
| 19:11 | <@macdjord> | jeroud: Well, I just use tabs exclusively, myself. |
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| 20:12 | <&ToxicFrog> | I used to use tabs. These days I use spaces, because editors have gotten better at treating spaces as though they were tabs, and this ensures that the code is not totally unreadable in less or github's code viewer or the like. |
| 20:14 | | * ioffice_space nods |
| 20:15 | < ioffice_space> | this... was inconsistant tabs |
| 20:21 | <@Tarinaky> | Well, the new hire bodes well. They use vim. |
| 20:21 | <@Tarinaky> | Or does that count as a cultural fit? |
| 20:23 | < ioffice_space> | urge... for... snarky comments, RISING |
| 20:23 | < ioffice_space> | (in the code, not here) |
| 20:24 | < ioffice_space> | Tarinaky: i'd use |
| 20:24 | < ioffice_space> | Vim, only right now i'm using netbeans because I have to navigate my way through the code here and I'm not writing yet :< |
| 20:26 | | * macdjord prefers notepad++~ |
| 20:27 | <@Alek> | ^ |
| 20:27 | <@macdjord> | (Seriously, I want a goddamn GUI on my editor. The mouse is too useful a selection tool to ignore!) |
| 20:27 | <@celticminstrel> | ^ |
| 20:27 | <@macdjord> | Plus, pull-down menues mean I /don't/ have to memorize every bloody key combo. |
| 20:27 | <@celticminstrel> | Heh. |
| 20:28 | <&jerith> | macdjord: That's the exact opposite of the way I use my editor. |
| 20:28 | <@celticminstrel> | Though, most of XCode's keyboard shortcuts aren't in the menus... |
| 20:28 | <@celticminstrel> | I think you can find them in the preferences. |
| 20:28 | < Julius> | I should memorize the keys to exit vim if I somehow accidentally launch it. |
| 20:28 | < Julius> | It is a trap. |
| 20:28 | <@celticminstrel> | I think it's something like :q |
| 20:28 | <&jerith> | Julius: <esc> :q |
| 20:28 | <@celticminstrel> | Ah, right. |
| 20:29 | < ioffice_space> | if I can find a Vi plugin for Netbeans, I'm using it |
| 20:29 | <@macdjord> | celticminstrel: That's fine! If I use a function a lot, I can look it up and memorize the shortcut. But I should not have to refer to a help file just to be able to use some function that I need only once. |
| 20:29 | <@celticminstrel> | Most of the ones not in the menus are for text navigation, I think. |
| 20:29 | <&jerith> | macdjord: emacs has "M-x <command-name>" where the command name can be tab-completed. |
| 20:30 | <@celticminstrel> | Or maybe other navigation. |
| 20:30 | <&jerith> | That gets me most things. |
| 20:30 | <&jerith> | (Not that I'm suggesting you should work the same way I do.) |
| 20:30 | <@macdjord> | jerith: Assuming I know the correct name for the function I want, sure. Categorized lists are easier. |
| 20:31 | <&jerith> | macdjord: Yeah. I can usually guess enough of the name to find a thing. |
| 20:31 | <&jerith> | Otherwise I search the web for "emacs <thing I want to do>" and get a manual entry. |
| 20:32 | <&jerith> | I seldom find that necessary, though. |
| 20:32 | | Kindamoody is now known as Kindamoody[zZz] |
| 20:40 | <@Tarinaky> | macdjord: Agreed. I use gVim. |
| 20:40 | | * Tarinaky ducks. |
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| 21:06 | < ioffice_space> | netbeans plugin get! |
| 21:06 | < ioffice_space> | for vi :3 |
| 21:13 | < ioffice_space> | erm |
| 21:13 | < ioffice_space> | vi plugin for netbeans |
| 21:13 | < ioffice_space> | there, that |
| 22:35 | <@Tamber> | Okay, for someone elsenet, how much screaming would there be from the embedded (i.e. routers) land if IP packets didn't have a fixed layout, but were effectively a string? |
| 22:37 | <@TheWatcher> | ... wat |
| 22:38 | <@TheWatcher> | That very question indicates a fundamental lack of comprehension of the technology involved in reliable data transmission. |
| 22:38 | <@Tamber> | Yes, he's a fucking moron. Apparently, tokenising a string to get the packet metadata adds /negligable/ time~ |
| 22:39 | <@Tamber> | (I threw out "imagine it takes ten times longer per packet, and consider the case of an embedded system such as a router", and got "a process so small that the time it takes to do is unfathomable, times 10") |
| 22:39 | <@Tamber> | I think this is the kind of dense that I'm not penetrating without DU. |
| 22:40 | <@Azash> | Without losing all faith in humanity and objective good* |
| 22:43 | <@Tamber> | I'm pretty sure the guy's spent his entire life in "Swimming in CPU-cycles, processing with high-level languages" land. |
| 22:44 | <@Azash> | The question here is why it would even be worth considering doing the conversion from bitmap to data structure in the network and not just in the endpoints |
| 22:45 | | ioffice_space is now known as iospace |
| 22:45 | <@Tamber> | Well, you've got to figure out what the addresses are, to be able to route things; right? |
| 22:47 | <@Azash> | Sure but I'm pretty sure they don't get turned into strings |
| 22:47 | <@Azash> | In the network |
| 22:47 | <@Tamber> | You're somewhat missing context. |
| 22:47 | <@Tamber> | http://pastebin.furryhelix.co.uk/post/320 |
| 22:48 | <@Azash> | I read the first line and changed tabs |
| 22:48 | <@Azash> | >> |
| 22:48 | <@Tamber> | Yup. |
| 22:48 | <@Tamber> | Much smarter than I was. |
| 22:48 | <@Tamber> | I attempted to explain why it was a stupid idea~ |
| 22:49 | <@Tamber> | (Not very well, I might add; but I sorta rely on people being bright enough to grasp the general idea of what they're discussing.) |
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| --- Log closed Wed Oct 01 00:00:09 2014 |