| --- Log opened Sat Sep 27 00:00:04 2014 |
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| 00:19 | < Scoot> | Okay, so apparently web design has changed A LOT since I learned to do HTML in notepad and upload it to angelfile when I was 12. For work, I've got to build a website. It's running on Office 365, and using microsoft's service as such. Anyone have any helpful hints on how to build a website that is more than just pictures and text? |
| 00:19 | | Turaiel is now known as Turaiel[Offline] |
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| 00:25 | <@Tamber> | The 'not entirely serious' response from me is: "Cry, and get lots of spider repellant." |
| 00:36 | <&ToxicFrog> | That is my entirely serious response. |
| 00:37 | < Scoot> | Spider repellant... This sounds like a good idea. Is a lighter involved? |
| 00:39 | | Turaiel is now known as Turaiel[Offline] |
| 00:40 | <@Tamber> | Only to light the flamethrowers. |
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| 01:02 | | * celticminstrel is a little confused at why Office 365 is involved in that scenario. |
| 01:26 | <&McMartin> | froztbyte: http://massively.joystiq.com/2014/09/26/museum-hopes-to-resurrect-habitat-worlds -first-mmo/ |
| 01:26 | <&McMartin> | Apparently the news has leaked~ |
| 01:28 | <&Derakon> | I was going to say "But what about MUDs?" but if this dates to 1985 then I think it predates even those. |
| 01:29 | <&Derakon> | Mm, Wikipedia says that the first MUD was made in 1978, but maybe that's not massive enough. |
| 01:30 | <&McMartin> | BartleMUD, yeah |
| 01:46 | <@Alek> | I believe they're considering graphical in their requisites. |
| 01:46 | <@Alek> | so uh. |
| 01:50 | | * McMartin intends to show up and try to help out. |
| 01:50 | <&McMartin> | Since I have very little contact with the relevant communities, that will be somewhere between "domain expert" and "testing drone" and I have no idea where~ |
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| 07:49 | <&McMartin> | If I wanted to learn how to properly program sockets, where would I go? |
| 07:49 | <&McMartin> | Python has a socket library but it seems to assume I already know what I'm doing, and I don't~ |
| 07:58 | <@froztbyte> | McMartin: \o/ |
| 07:59 | <@froztbyte> | also, beej's? |
| 07:59 | <@froztbyte> | http://www.beej.us/ |
| 08:00 | <@froztbyte> | http://beej.us/guide/bgnet/output/html/singlepage/bgnet.html || http://beej.us/guide/bgipc/output/html/multipage/unixsock.html |
| 08:00 | <@froztbyte> | McMartin: ^ |
| 08:01 | <&McMartin> | Looks helpful |
| 08:02 | <@froztbyte> | I think the one caveat note I might know of is that "more advanced" socket features aren't necessarily on all platforms |
| 08:02 | <@froztbyte> | SO_REUSEADDR for instance, iirc |
| 08:03 | | * McMartin nods |
| 08:03 | <@froztbyte> | so I think what I'd do is "read beej's first, then go read a couple of the twisted reactors" |
| 08:03 | <&McMartin> | Basically, I want to be able to do something netcat like to use a socket to be an intermediary between a local process that has stdin/stdout and some external program. |
| 08:03 | <@froztbyte> | because they've got stuff for every eventloop and every platform, so it's a nice way to see the edge cases |
| 08:03 | <@froztbyte> | McMartin: `socat`? |
| 08:04 | | * froztbyte reboots for updates |
| 08:04 | <&McMartin> | Looks like very close to what I want, but I bet I won't get to use it alone, at least not without some extra layers. |
| 08:05 | <@froztbyte> | yeah it's pretty direct; you'll probably need to know exactly what you're doing on the socket |
| 08:05 | | * McMartin is trying to do some groundwork prep for Sunday :D |
| 08:05 | <@froztbyte> | the other option I can maybe recommend looking at is ... whatsisface |
| 08:05 | <@froztbyte> | suckless did some work. a window manager, for one. a fifo/file structure based IRC client is the other |
| 08:06 | <@froztbyte> | that latter one might be useful reading too |
| 08:06 | <@froztbyte> | http://tools.suckless.org/ii/ <- this |
| 08:06 | | * froztbyte reboots forrealsies now |
| 08:06 | <&McMartin> | And I'm expecting that we'll need some kind of program that pretends just hard enough to be a Hayes-compatible modem to trick old networking software into "dialing out" to what is secretly a site elsewhere on the net |
| 08:09 | <@froztbyte> | There was a thing for this too |
| 08:09 | <@froztbyte> | I'll try check just now |
| 08:09 | <@froztbyte> | Alternatively some dude might pitch up with a Cisco and rock vpdn on it |
| 08:10 | <&McMartin> | Yeah |
| 08:10 | <&McMartin> | I literally have no idea what to expect or what will be expected of me |
| 08:10 | <&McMartin> | So, fiddling about with related techs to get better at them. |
| 08:10 | <&McMartin> | I was able to get VICE running on Windows to talk to netcat on Linux and vice versa |
| 08:11 | <&McMartin> | (all combos of machine netcatting and machine VICEing) |
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| 08:18 | <@froztbyte> | yeah I don't really know either |
| 08:18 | <@froztbyte> | I have some idea of which people might be there, but that's really about it |
| 08:21 | <&McMartin> | Yeah |
| 08:21 | <&McMartin> | I found the IRC channel where they're recruiting C64 maniacs. |
| 08:21 | <&McMartin> | Dudes are maniacs and also very useful! |
| 08:21 | <@froztbyte> | haha |
| 08:21 | <@froztbyte> | efnet or ircnet? |
| 08:21 | | * McMartin has all the technical manuals he could need if he has to write BayesHayes himself. |
| 08:21 | <&McMartin> | newnet, actually |
| 08:21 | <&McMartin> | Mostly US East Coast so they're much quieter longer than, say, here. |
| 08:22 | <&McMartin> | And we're pretty darn low-bandwidth! |
| 08:22 | <@froztbyte> | ah |
| 08:22 | <@froztbyte> | McMartin: yeah I'm in a couple of choice spots across most of the world |
| 08:22 | | * froztbyte is ~international~ |
| 08:22 | <&McMartin> | Anyway, I've been there for two days now and there have been six users connecting on actual C64s by means of various bridging technologies and two servers. |
| 08:22 | <@froztbyte> | hee |
| 08:24 | <@froztbyte> | sounds like you're gonna have a pretty good time :) |
| 08:24 | <@froztbyte> | kinda sad I can't join tbh |
| 08:25 | <@froztbyte> | McMartin: so, the hayes thing; would that be something that looks like an actual modem interface over serial, or what? |
| 08:27 | <&McMartin> | Basically, yeah |
| 08:27 | <&McMartin> | You send it ATZ\r and it sends back \r\nOK\r\n |
| 08:29 | <&McMartin> | I can't type that fast and netcat kept refusing to send \r so NovaTerm decided the modem must have been offline; but I could go into raw terminal mode anyway and type in the emulator and have it appear on my xterm, or send a line from the xterm and have it blasted over to the C64. |
| 08:30 | <&McMartin> | So I've been half-imagining a program where you "dial out" and the phone number ends up making decide to, say, load up dumbfrotz and let you play the IFComp games through the terminal interface. |
| 08:30 | <@froztbyte> | linmodem might be able to do that |
| 08:31 | <&McMartin> | Yeah, most of the real tutorials out there are actually for hooking actual modems up and feeding it in via tcpser |
| 08:31 | <&McMartin> | Also, I'd like to be triplatform |
| 08:31 | <@froztbyte> | hmmm |
| 08:31 | <&McMartin> | Which is why python.socket is appealing |
| 08:31 | <@froztbyte> | right, I see where you're going with this |
| 08:31 | <@froztbyte> | McMartin: honestly, if you're going to be fucking with sockets |
| 08:31 | <@froztbyte> | McMartin: do it with twisted. |
| 08:32 | <&McMartin> | Noted |
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| 08:32 | <@froztbyte> | if you need a sorta runthrough, http://krondo.com/?page_id=1327 |
| 08:32 | <@froztbyte> | I suspect you could probably reasonably skim over the first couple of sections |
| 08:33 | <@froztbyte> | due to subject familiarity |
| 08:33 | <&McMartin> | Yeah |
| 08:33 | <@froztbyte> | http://krondo.com/?p=1682 is where you'll start paying attention |
| 08:33 | <&McMartin> | It turns out that I can use pipes on Linux, anyway, for this |
| 08:33 | <@froztbyte> | yup |
| 08:33 | <&McMartin> | It's only on Windows where I have to use sockets to interface to the RS-232 stuff |
| 08:34 | <&McMartin> | virtual RS-232, mind |
| 08:34 | <@froztbyte> | yeah but still |
| 08:34 | <@froztbyte> | also iirc the UART stuff in windows, even if virtual, still makes you do all the checks and balances |
| 08:34 | <@froztbyte> | so glhf.. |
| 08:34 | <&McMartin> | Right |
| 08:34 | <&McMartin> | I'm saying Windows (and Linux) have NFI that UARTs are being simulated. |
| 08:35 | <&McMartin> | (This is a known shortcoming of VICE, in fact - if you hook a real modem to it through the real serial port, it does not recognize when it has been hung up on.) |
| 08:35 | <@froztbyte> | oh, that way around |
| 08:35 | <@froztbyte> | herp |
| 08:36 | <@froztbyte> | sorry, I'm still waking up here :D |
| 08:36 | <&McMartin> | I should really be heading to sleep here |
| 08:36 | <@froztbyte> | haha |
| 08:36 | <&McMartin> | If I do go to this thing I need to wake up at like 9 AM on a Sunday |
| 08:36 | <&McMartin> | boo hiss! |
| 08:37 | <@froztbyte> | I've been doing that regardless, but that's because I suck at sleep |
| 11:12 | <@macdjord> | McMartin: You said a while ago that the BASH vulnerability wasn't that bad, because unless you were running BASH CGI scripts, all someone could do with it is run aribitrary commands from a login that was supposed to be restricted to specfic commands. |
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| 11:13 | <@macdjord> | But the vector here is system variable, right? So wouldn't any service which calls system() ever be vulnerable, since it will pass its enviroment to the child? |
| 11:19 | <&McMartin> | Yeah, and actually one of those is dhcpclient. So now it is in fact *real* bad. |
| 11:20 | <@TheWatcher> | Any it's not just bash cgi scripts, but any cgi script that calls system() |
| 11:20 | <@TheWatcher> | If /bin/sh is bash |
| 12:35 | < Xon> | and it hasn't actually been fixed yet for linux |
| 12:36 | < Xon> | the last 2 rounds of patches don't actually /fix/ the problem. that is bash is doing crazy shit to enviromental variables |
| 13:01 | <&ToxicFrog> | One suggestion I saw is passing the function names in a special variable, like __funcs__, and then only parsing the variables named there |
| 13:01 | <&ToxicFrog> | Which moves the attack preconditions from "can set any environment variable" to "can set one specific environment variable", and if they can do that you're already boned anyways. |
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| 14:48 | <@TheWatcher> | I'd prefer to just be able to turn the godsdamned stupid functionality off. |
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| 15:39 | <@Tarinaky> | Do services often call system()? |
| 15:48 | <&jerith> | Calling system() is a horrible thing to do. |
| 16:07 | <@TheWatcher> | Tarinaky: does your router have a ping or traceroute facility? If so, that's almost certainly done by the script invoking the appropriat etool through system, exec, or the like |
| 16:08 | <@Tarinaky> | TheWatcher: Fair example. |
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| 17:05 | <@Tamber> | Not like routers are shining examples of what to do. |
| 17:05 | <@Tamber> | In fact, usually quite the opposite~ |
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| 21:26 | <&McMartin> | froztbyte: re: our discussion last night of netcat and socat and friends... |
| 21:26 | <&McMartin> | ... the tool that it seems I was trying to mostly reinvent may be more conveniently renamed "telnet" =P |
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| 23:03 | <&McMartin> | http://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2014/09/yahoo-killing-off-yahoo-af ter-20-years-of-hierarchical-organization/ |
| 23:03 | <&McMartin> | I didn't actually realize that the Ya in Yahoo was in fact the Ya in yacc |
| 23:04 | <@Tamber> | huh. |
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| 23:06 | | * McMartin flails at the Internet |
| 23:07 | <&McMartin> | This shouldn't be that hard, except for I guess hilarious disparities in stuff |
| 23:08 | <&McMartin> | What this project seems to need is basically "netcat or socat, but that can speak X.25". I see AF_X25 in socket(2) right there, but none of them seem to recognize it. |
| 23:14 | <@Tamber> | "[S]houldn't be that hard, except for all the hard bits.", then? |
| 23:15 | <@TheWatcher> | Ah, software! |
| 23:15 | <&McMartin> | Except that X.25 was a moribund standard by the time Linux mattered at all. |
| 23:15 | <&McMartin> | "I want Linux to be able to serve as a CompuServe ISP node" was not really a driving force for, well, anyone. |
| 23:16 | <&McMartin> | (What the project is actually *doing* is trying to get a machine to bridge between an ancient machine talking X.25 out its serial port and The Wider TCP/IP-using Internet) |
| 23:16 | <@Tamber> | :) |
| 23:16 | <&McMartin> | (That seems like th ekind of thing that *ought* to be, like, a handful of pipes) |
| 23:17 | <&McMartin> | (Though it would be hilarious if it turns out that it in fact was blissfully unaware of X.25 and was just doing the equivalent of telnet, in which case, hey, problem solved) |
| 23:19 | <@Tamber> | A thought... do you actually have X.25 support compiled into the kernel? |
| 23:19 | <@Tamber> | Or, at least, available as a module. |
| 23:19 | <&McMartin> | Probably not, to the former! |
| 23:19 | <&McMartin> | It was super-experimental in 2.2 |
| 23:19 | <&McMartin> | And I bet it didn't get a hell of a lot of attention. |
| 23:19 | <@Tamber> | hehehe |
| 23:19 | <&McMartin> | But we might not get to do that anyway |
| 23:19 | <&McMartin> | That's for talking to *other X.25-speaking devices, over the network* |
| 23:20 | <@Tamber> | Hmmm. |
| 23:20 | <&McMartin> | We may end up having to be its wired router, so instead of connecting to it, it'll just be totallyanx25networkdude.sh < /dev/ttyS0 |
| 23:20 | <&McMartin> | And > /dev/ttyS0 |
| 23:22 | <@Tamber> | The documentation for CONFIG_X25 claims that the implementation supports it over "an ordinary modem" using the async driver; how much needs to be there to be considered "an ordinary modem" is a different matter, though. |
| 23:22 | <@Tamber> | (This is in 3.16.1, btw.) |
| 23:23 | <&McMartin> | That may end up tying into my own silly project, which involved basically Being Telnet but faking understanding of the old modem control codes |
| 23:23 | <@Tamber> | :) |
| 23:23 | <&McMartin> | (So it will reply to ATDT8675309 with CONNECT, etc.) |
| 23:24 | <&McMartin> | (And once it does that, operates just like telnet until you disconnect, or if I were feeling super-fancy, I could also implement the 'switch back to command mode' stuff. But that requires better command of select() that I know for a fact I have.) |
| 23:25 | <&McMartin> | Also, dumb question: what is "the async driver"? Is that what backs the serial and parallel ports? |
| 23:26 | <@Tamber> | I don't actually know. I shall prod at the docs a little more. |
| 23:26 | <@Tamber> | I /presume/ it's something under the x25 driver tree, but I haven't ever looked at that before. |
| 23:26 | <&McMartin> | (What are you using as your docs resource? I'm wandering around linux.die.net) |
| 23:27 | <@Tamber> | I'm using the help info for CONFIG_X25 and Documentation/networking/x25.txt |
| 23:27 | <&McMartin> | Aha, good times. |
| 23:27 | <@Tamber> | The latter of which is... not /really/ documentation, now I look at it. |
| 23:28 | <@Tamber> | Just, mostly, an apology. |
| 23:28 | <@Tamber> | :) |
| 23:28 | <&McMartin> | That seems consistent with the materials I've found :) |
| 23:29 | <&McMartin> | Ah well. I'm going to take this as evidence that my beard isn't so grey as all that after all. |
| 23:29 | <@Tamber> | <<one can do X.25 over a standard telephone line using an ordinary modem (say Y to "X.25 async driver" below)>> |
| 23:29 | <&McMartin> | "say Y to"? |
| 23:30 | <@Tamber> | Enable it in the options. |
| 23:30 | <&McMartin> | Aha, OK. |
| 23:30 | <@Tamber> | Though I am mildly amused to note that CONFIG_X25 doesn't open a tree of further options. |
| 23:30 | <&McMartin> | Right. Assuming *any Linux networking dudes show up at all* this is gonna be a solved problem. |
| 23:31 | <&McMartin> | Config that, modify netcat to include that as a valid option, that should give you the sockets interface |
| 23:31 | <&McMartin> | Once you do that, (or really, don't modify netcat, modify socat), you just have socat have the X.25 socket on one end and the tcp socket on the other, and you should be off to the races. |
| 23:31 | <@Tamber> | That is to say, it is merely a single "have X.25 packet layer" option. I would like to imagine that it gives you all the various widgets to speak x.25 over serial/ethernet/etc. |
| 23:32 | <@Tamber> | However, that would be too easy. |
| 23:32 | <&McMartin> | Yeah, I would assume so too |
| 23:32 | <&McMartin> | Life is exciting on this one because it seems x.25 assumed a reliable network layer. |
| 23:32 | <&McMartin> | So if you're really using it for real these days (which means you are an old, old Cisco client, it seems) then you are using X.25 Over TCP, which has to add exra length information so that the TCP streams can be broken back up into pretend-individual datagrams. |
| 23:34 | <@Tamber> | It also appears that, shock horror, the documentation for this may not be comprehensive and up to date! |
| 23:35 | <&McMartin> | LE GASP |
| 23:35 | <@Tamber> | And the last post in the archive for the linux-x25 mailing list was from 2009. Positively fresh! |
| 23:35 | <&McMartin> | That is to be fair way the fuck later than I would have expected. |
| 23:36 | <&McMartin> | This is CompuServe and QuantumLink's protocl, back before QuantumLink became AOL. |
| 23:39 | | * Tamber grins at the "history" in the leading comment for net/x25/af_x25.c |
| 23:43 | <&McMartin> | Heh. |
| 23:43 | <&McMartin> | Note that ax.25 is apparently still Totally A Thing and seems to have lots of support. |
| 23:43 | <@Tamber> | Indeed! |
| 23:49 | <@Tamber> | *chuckle* <%virtadpt> RT @eevee: Entire Programming Community Shocked To Learn, Repeatedly, That Maybe Putting Executable Code In Environment Variables Was Not A Good Idea |
| 23:50 | <&McMartin> | I assume this has been announced as proof that OSS is secretly more secure, right, because many eyes reveal problems super-fast. |
| 23:50 | <&McMartin> | Oh hey |
| 23:50 | <&McMartin> | Right, now I see several things going on here, and I can STEAL ALL THE SEKRITS >_> |
| 23:51 | <@Tamber> | *chuckle* |
| 23:51 | <&McMartin> | This will let me know rapidly if there's anything I have to really worry about here. |
| 23:52 | <@Tamber> | Many eyes might spot problems faster; if they're actually looking in the right place, and know what they're looking for. But they've got a better chance than if they're blindfolded. :p |
| 23:57 | <&McMartin> | Hrm. What I really need is something like so-cat but which logs the traffic as it forwards it. |
| 23:57 | <@Tamber> | so-nosey-cat, clearly. |
| 23:58 | <&McMartin> | Aha, -v. |
| 23:58 | <&McMartin> | I believe the correct response to finding that one is "derp" |
| 23:58 | <@Tamber> | :) |
| --- Log closed Sun Sep 28 00:00:21 2014 |