| --- Log opened Wed Aug 27 00:00:37 2014 |
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| 12:12 | <@Azash> | http://stackoverflow.com/questions/23434727/ie11-printing-infinite-pages/2352043 4#23520434 |
| 12:13 | <@TheWatcher> | ... wat |
| 12:21 | <@Tarinaky> | And just when I begin to feel I should re-evaluate where I stand on website development one of you links something like /that/ to remind me why I swore it off. |
| 12:22 | <&McM[AFK]> | Not gonna lie, I'm happier tracing core dumps in C++ code. |
| 12:22 | <&McM[AFK]> | ... whether I'm happier tracing template instantiation bugs, I would have to think more on that. |
| 12:22 | <@Tarinaky> | Ouch, |
| 12:23 | <@Azash> | McM[AFK]: Nothing beats the enjoyment of trying to debug this rails code |
| 12:23 | <@Azash> | Suddenly realize I'm deep in an activerecord transaction looking at the "mon_enter" function |
| 12:24 | <@Tarinaky> | I've taken to calling regular Ruby 'Japanese Python'... |
| 12:24 | <@Tarinaky> | Well, the actualphrasing is "with tentacles" |
| 12:25 | <@Tarinaky> | Not played with Rails though. |
| 12:26 | <@Tarinaky> | I was rather put off the thing by the whole arbitrary code execution issue. |
| 12:45 | <@RchrdB> | Tarinaky, the flipside of that is that Python is 'American Ruby', and |
| 12:45 | <@RchrdB> | y'know how the Python community says "there should be one obvious way to do it" as a contrast to Perl's TMTOWTDI? |
| 12:46 | <@RchrdB> | well, Python is one tentacle. |
| 12:46 | <@RchrdB> | Tentacle, singular. |
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| 12:54 | <@Tamber> | <To best summarise web development in one word: AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA*breathe* AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA*breathe*AAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA[... ]> |
| 12:55 | <@Azash> | ^A*(\*breathe\*A*)*$ |
| 12:56 | <@Tamber> | :) |
| 12:56 | <@Azash> | I dunno, I like webdev with Rails |
| 12:56 | <@Azash> | It's a whole new world in pleasant coding |
| 12:56 | <@TheWatcher> | ... |
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| 12:57 | <@Azash> | I'm just waiting for someone to instruct me there's an excess 'l' |
| 12:57 | <@Tamber> | :) |
| 12:57 | <@Tamber> | The closest I will ever get to web-dev, is generating HTML offline and using rsync. Because *hmph* |
| 12:58 | <@Azash> | But really, compared to something like PHP, RoR is just.. so much better |
| 12:58 | <@Azash> | Things make sense, it's easy enough to do whatever you're trying to do, the code is legible and well segmented, etc etc |
| 12:59 | <@Azash> | Tamber: What about SSH+vim? |
| 13:01 | <@Tamber> | Too much manual effort~ |
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| 13:15 | <@Tarinaky> | RchrdB: Ruby has an overly complicated grammar imo because 'pretty' != 'easy to understand that it's actually doing'... |
| 13:15 | <@Tarinaky> | *what |
| 13:16 | <@Tarinaky> | But maybe I'm broken :P |
| 13:23 | < [R]> | Ruby's hard to read, yeah |
| 13:23 | < [R]> | Bunch of non-intuitive syntax sugar. |
| 13:26 | <@Azash> | Like any other syntax, you pick it up |
| 13:33 | <@RchrdB> | Tarinaky, *shrug* I find it trivial to write Ruby that I can read just as easily as Python, but I've never had any need to read large bodies of Ruby code written by other people |
| 13:34 | <@RchrdB> | i.e. "Ruby written by a Python programmer doesn't look alarmingly less clear than Python by the same programmer". ;P |
| 13:35 | <@RchrdB> | OTOH, my commercial experience with reading large bodies of Python code written by other people is that the evil bastards make up for the lack of syntactic obfuscation by jamming together every single form of fucking metaclassing and overriding of methods with names like __foo__ and mixins and indirections and dependency-injection-ish lookups through global hash tables that are filled out magically on import by other modules and oh god fuck |
| 13:35 | <@RchrdB> | you why did we ever use Plone WHYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY |
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| 14:32 | <&ToxicFrog> | Azash: "compared to PHP, ___ is so much better" is a really, really low bar to clear, though. |
| 14:33 | <&ToxicFrog> | Personally I like my languages to aim a bit higher than "better than PHP" :P |
| 14:39 | <@Azash> | Haha |
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| 18:33 | <&McM[AFK]> | Man, this C++ wrapper for Monocle I'm writing feels ugly, and I'm not sure if it's because I have to use inheritance |
| 18:39 | <@Tarinaky> | I'm not sure if I'm mistaken but Python, iirc, has a relatively simple grammar for a HLL. |
| 18:39 | <@Tarinaky> | Probably because of the One True Way design. |
| 18:40 | <&McM[AFK]> | Python has as a design goal to make sure that it can be parsed by the simplest possible parser |
| 18:40 | <&McM[AFK]> | It is an LL(1) syntax, if you do the hardcore stuff. |
| 18:40 | <&McM[AFK]> | If you don't, that's basically as simple as you can get and still be a language more complex than a regex. |
| 18:41 | <@Tarinaky> | Remind me what LL stands for? |
| 18:41 | <&McM[AFK]> | It's also the one that's simple enough that you can hand-write a parser for it without trying very hard. |
| 18:41 | <&McM[AFK]> | LL(1) means that you can tell, with one token of lookahead, what kind of statement it is |
| 18:41 | <&McM[AFK]> | Er, what kind of statement you are about to hit |
| 18:41 | <@Tarinaky> | Ah-hah |
| 18:41 | <&McM[AFK]> | LR(1), the more typical one that you use BISON or ANTLR or whatever for, is "with one token of lookahead, you can tell that you have just *complete* a statement of a certain kin" |
| 18:41 | <&McM[AFK]> | d |
| 18:42 | <&McM[AFK]> | (Actually, it's LALR, which is basically LR with less ability to handle ambiguity but hugely increased efficiency. I don't know of the human-level implications of that.) |
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| 18:43 | <@Tarinaky> | It's been a /long/ time since I've looked at the Dragon book... and I don't think the edition I had dealt with anything except LL(1). |
| 18:44 | <&McM[AFK]> | Every edition should cover LALR and LR in the chapter on parse tables |
| 18:44 | | * McM[AFK] has the red and purple editions, but not to hand. |
| 18:45 | <@Tarinaky> | I borrowed it from a library. |
| 18:45 | <@Tarinaky> | I don't think the cover /had/ a colour. |
| 18:45 | <@Tarinaky> | I think the dragon was kindof redish... once... |
| 18:45 | <&McM[AFK]> | The three colors are green, red, and purple, and it refers to the color of the dragon~ |
| 18:45 | <&McM[AFK]> | Also, there's an author added each edition |
| 18:46 | <&McM[AFK]> | I think first was Aho and Sethi, second adds Ullman, third adds Lam |
| 18:46 | <@Tarinaky> | The one I had was Aho, Sethi, Ullman. |
| 18:46 | <&McM[AFK]> | That's the Red Dragon book, the one I had for my compilers course back [REDACTED] years ago |
| 18:46 | <&McM[AFK]> | It definitely covered LR and LALR because I had homework assignments about that |
| 18:48 | <@Tarinaky> | I had a small problem with my drinking, suicidal depression and no course so... You'll forgive me for being wrong >.> |
| 18:48 | <@Azash> | Ha haw, I got assigned to a BSc thesis group this fall |
| 18:49 | <@Azash> | Apparently something related to ad hoc networking which does reduce the ha haw a bit |
| 18:49 | <&McM[AFK]> | Tarinaky: Compilers were kind of my specialty, so this is one of those places where I can pull rank^W^W^Whave noblesse oblige |
| 18:56 | <@Tarinaky> | McM[AFK]: We're not even arguing about Compilers, we're arguing about the contents of a book :P |
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| 20:31 | <&ToxicFrog> | The Green Dragon Book also covers LR and LALR. |
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| --- Log closed Thu Aug 28 00:00:29 2014 |