| --- Log opened Sun Aug 24 00:00:16 2014 |
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| 13:14 | | * McM[AFK] pushes five more commits to Monocle. |
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| 15:01 | <&jerith> | I have discovered my first bit of troublesome unexpected behaviour in T3. |
| 15:02 | <&jerith> | If I redefine LookIn using dobjFor() and give it a check() and an action(), Search uses the action() but not the check(). |
| 15:04 | <&McM[AFK]> | Yes, the "surprise, you have like 500 things you can override, good luck figuring out which one is the one you are *supposed* to use" aspect of T3 is why FotH ended up being in I7. |
| 15:04 | <&McM[AFK]> | FotH was *going* to be my T3 debut, but that didn't work out. |
| 15:05 | <&McM[AFK]> | My guess is that there is something *like* action() that only runs after check() succeeds or somewhat. |
| 15:05 | <&McM[AFK]> | There is a #T3 channel on ifMUD, it is probably the place to go |
| 15:06 | <&jerith> | I'm in #intfiction on freenode, which was started a few days ago by the guy who's getting me to learn T3. |
| 15:06 | | * McM[AFK] nods |
| 15:06 | <&jerith> | I think I'll be telling him that I7 is superior in all ways, but I want to get through the T3 tutorial first. |
| 15:07 | <&McM[AFK]> | Some people fear braces~ |
| 15:07 | <&McM[AFK]> | Er |
| 15:07 | <&McM[AFK]> | fear *lack* of braces |
| 15:07 | <&McM[AFK]> | I've watched people conceptually brickwall on I7 in ways other languages don't do, so there's clearly something that it doesn't help with |
| 15:08 | <&jerith> | He doesn't know I7, but is familiar with several more traditional programming languages. |
| 15:08 | <&McM[AFK]> | Oh, that guy |
| 15:09 | <&jerith> | A particular guy or a type of guy? |
| 15:09 | <&McM[AFK]> | ldlework is, I'm assuming, the founder of that channel, and he's one of the relative newcomers to ifMUD as well |
| 15:09 | <&jerith> | Yes. |
| 15:10 | <&jerith> | I told him about ifmud when he founded #intfiction. |
| 15:11 | <&McM[AFK]> | Huh, apparently that was last week. OK. |
| 15:11 | <&McM[AFK]> | I thought it was longer ago than that |
| 15:16 | <&McM[AFK]> | Anyways, yes, I recognize several people on that channel due to ifMUD |
| 15:16 | <&McM[AFK]> | Sometimes because they've written articles that people there wanted me to read ._> |
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| 20:40 | | * gnolam pokes his squares. |
| 20:40 | <@gnolam> | They're not so much marching as having a mosh pit. |
| 20:43 | <@Tamber> | -EMUCHWUB |
| 21:14 | | * ErikMesoy grapples with Python. |
| 21:14 | <@ErikMesoy> | *ba-dum tsschh* |
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| 21:16 | <@ErikMesoy> | I'm probably phrasing this wrong, but help me understand: why is it that when I call a function and give it an object reference as argument, the function can modify the referred object's properties individually but not point the reference elsewhere? |
| 21:18 | <@ErikMesoy> | Suppose I declare SomeObject = SomeClass("id") and then I call tweak(SomeObject) and then ask for the id of SomeObject, with these three happening in the same scope in order. |
| 21:19 | <@ErikMesoy> | If tweak(argument) says argument.id = "other_id", then I get out "other_id". But if tweak(argument) says argument = SomeClass("other_id"), then I get out "id". |
| 21:29 | | * ErikMesoy is thinking of this as "Ship of Theseus programming" in his attempt to comprehend this. |
| 21:29 | <@ErikMesoy> | You can switch out every bit of the object, but not the object itself? |
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| 21:35 | <@macdjord> | ErikMesoy: Because the reference is copied. The object reference is actually a pointer. There is a copy of this pointer on the stack in the context where you make the function call. Inside the call, you are on a new stack frame, which has its own copy of the pointer. Changing copy #2 does not change copy #1. |
| 21:35 | <@Namegduf> | Because the object reference is passed by value, yeah. |
| 21:35 | | * celticminstrel wonder what we're talking about here. |
| 21:36 | < [R]> | Isn't that the behavior of every HLL? |
| 21:36 | <@Namegduf> | It gets a memory address stuck in a position on the stack where it knows it can find it, Which it can dereference and offset from to manipulate the things at that memory address. |
| 21:37 | <@Namegduf> | And be visible to any other code looking at things at the same memory address. |
| 21:37 | <@Namegduf> | If it changes its copy of the memory address, though, that doesn't affect that other code at all. |
| 21:38 | <@Namegduf> | Its accesses now go to a new place, but everywhere else with references to that address don't change. |
| 21:38 | <@Namegduf> | That's a rough "what is actually happening that explains why they chose those high level semantics" explanation. |
| 21:38 | <@ErikMesoy> | Right. |
| 21:40 | <@macdjord> | ErikMesoy: If you're using C or C++, then you can instead take a reference to the reference, which would allow you to change the parent pointer. |
| 21:41 | <@Namegduf> | Pass a memory address of the memory address, then double-dereference to manipulate the original thing and dereference once to access and manipulate the now-shared memory address, yeah. |
| 21:41 | <@ErikMesoy> | "the object reference is passed by value" may be technically precise, but it gives me a headache thinking about it. |
| 21:42 | <@Namegduf> | Hmm. I think fundamentally you're going to need an awareness of the distinction between the reference and the object to model the mechanics right. |
| 21:42 | <@Namegduf> | Might be a simpler way to think about it, though. |
| 21:43 | <@Namegduf> | If you have C/C++ experience, you can roughly think of most high level languages as passing around pointers to objects and just blocking all mechanisms for getting a non-pointer-to-object and so not eneding syntax to represent one. |
| 21:43 | <@Namegduf> | *needing |
| 21:44 | <@ErikMesoy> | Oh, I have an awareness of that distinction just fine. |
| 21:44 | <@celticminstrel> | You can't take a reference to a reference, but a reference to a pointer works. |
| 21:46 | <@ErikMesoy> | What I apparently had a problem with was the copy of the reference. |
| 21:46 | <@ErikMesoy> | Now I get it. |
| 21:49 | | Kindamoody|afk is now known as Kindamoody |
| 21:55 | | AnnoDomini is now known as Colin |
| 22:08 | <@Tarinaky> | "If you're using C or C++" ... If you're /not/ using C/C++, use an object to wrap the reference - then your reference to the (encapsulating) object is your pointer-to-pointer. |
| 22:09 | <@Tarinaky> | *jazz hands* Aggregation motherfucka! |
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| --- Log closed Mon Aug 25 00:00:32 2014 |