| --- Log opened Thu Aug 14 00:00:36 2014 |
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| 11:27 | <@Azash> | https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/cupsys/+bug/255161/comments/28 |
| 11:27 | | * Azash boggles |
| 11:28 | < Syka> | fuckin tuesdays man |
| 11:29 | < luke> | Kinda like that bug that only caused trouble during certain phases of the moon. |
| 11:30 | <@gnolam> | Azash: That is impressive. |
| 11:56 | <&McMartin> | Never could get the hang of Tuesdays |
| 12:13 | <@gnolam> | "Uh-oh. Sounds like somebody's got a case of the Tuesdays!" |
| 12:28 | <@gnolam> | ... phew |
| 12:28 | <@gnolam> | Turns out I was misremembering my current deadline. |
| 12:28 | <@gnolam> | I've got a month left! |
| 12:28 | <@gnolam> | That does wonders for my stress levels. |
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| 13:14 | <@Azash> | (rdb:1) s -1 |
| 13:14 | <@Azash> | Step argument '-1' needs to at least 1 |
| 13:14 | <@Tarinaky> | Antipatterns I hoped I'd never have to deal with in my professional life and yet... here I am: |
| 13:14 | <@Tarinaky> | goto done; |
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| 13:30 | <&ToxicFrog> | Tarinaky: if it's C that's an entirely reasonable way to handle certain types of cleanup |
| 13:32 | < luke> | Sure, it may not be 'perfect' or 'beautiful', but sometimes a goto is just the ticket. |
| 13:32 | <@Tarinaky> | ToxicFrog: It's not for cleanup. They have a seperate goto cleanup 'pattern'. |
| 13:33 | <@Tarinaky> | Also: this is C++ not C. |
| 13:33 | <&jerith> | Tarinaky: Is it escaping frome multiple-nested loops or something? |
| 13:33 | <@Tarinaky> | So you should /probably/ be using Objects to manage resources. |
| 13:33 | <@Tarinaky> | jerith: This is having a single exit point in every function. |
| 13:33 | <@Tarinaky> | Essentially goto done replaces return |
| 13:34 | <&jerith> | Okay, that's broken. |
| 13:35 | <@Tarinaky> | It's so they can put a breakpoint on one line to capture a function exiting... |
| 13:36 | < luke> | And that's a broken debugger (or they just don't know how to use it). |
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| 13:43 | <&ToxicFrog> | Tarinaky: no no no no no no. Wrong. Bad. |
| 13:44 | <@Tarinaky> | ToxicFrog: I did call it an Antipattern :P |
| 13:45 | <&ToxicFrog> | SPOE is definitely that. |
| 13:45 | <@Tarinaky> | SPOE? |
| 13:45 | <&jerith> | Single point of exit? |
| 13:46 | <@Tarinaky> | Well I've never seen SPOE using goto before. |
| 13:46 | <@Tarinaky> | I always figured you did SPOE using some ungodly contortion of ifs |
| 13:46 | <@Tarinaky> | Which is how I'm having to do it for Ruby. |
| 13:47 | <&ToxicFrog> | Single Point Of Exit. |
| 13:47 | <&ToxicFrog> | I've seen it with both goto and if-trees. |
| 13:47 | <&jerith> | As far as I can tell, SPOE is supposed to make code "easier to follow" by replacing some returns with messy conditional trees. |
| 13:47 | <&ToxicFrog> | jerith: no. |
| 13:47 | <&ToxicFrog> | SPOE is a legacy weapon from the structured programming wars. |
| 13:47 | <&jerith> | ToxicFrog: What's the justification for it, then? |
| 13:48 | <&ToxicFrog> | It has no place in the postwar world, but some people still use it. |
| 13:48 | <@Tarinaky> | At least it puts a hard limit on my function length. |
| 13:48 | <@Tarinaky> | Otherwise I'll slam into the line width :P |
| 13:48 | <&jerith> | Short functions are good. |
| 13:48 | <&ToxicFrog> | It used to be SESE, Single Entry, Single Exit -- i.e. have actual functions with a single entry point and a return instruction, rather than JMPing into the middle of them and them JMPing back out when convenient. |
| 13:49 | <&ToxicFrog> | This is also the context of "GOTO considered harmful". |
| 13:50 | <&ToxicFrog> | These aren't rules that are meant to apply to all programming everywhere, but a contrast to the then-dominant approach of writing everything in asm and shooting from the hip when it comes to flow control and program structure. |
| 13:50 | <&jerith> | I tend to split things up when the get too nested rather than too long, but it still leaves me with mostly-short functions and a few long-but-linear ones. |
| 13:52 | <&ToxicFrog> | These days, the war has been won so thouroughly that few even remember that there was a war. But some people dig up these old things and then cling to them, cargo-cult like. |
| 13:52 | <@Tarinaky> | Modern programming languages have nicer ways of handling the things that gotos are good for though :p |
| 13:53 | <&jerith> | Tarinaky: s/modern/good/ |
| 13:53 | <@Tarinaky> | I would describe C as both good and unmodern. |
| 13:53 | <@Tarinaky> | Even modern C is very much unmodern. |
| 13:53 | <&jerith> | C isn't very good. |
| 13:53 | <&jerith> | It's "good enough", though. |
| 13:54 | <@Tarinaky> | It is very good as a domain specific language. |
| 13:54 | <@Tarinaky> | IMO |
| 13:54 | <&jerith> | There are very few problems for which C is the best solution. |
| 13:55 | <&jerith> | C is, however, the ubiquitous solution. |
| 13:55 | <&ToxicFrog> | I will probably be checking out Rust next time I need to write some C ABI compatible code. |
| 13:56 | <&jerith> | ToxicFrog: I've heard good things about Rust, but also that it's insufficiently mature for production use. |
| 13:56 | <&ToxicFrog> | Tarinaky: (re: GOTO): this is true. But the people who trot out GOTO Considered Harmful never bring that up. It's never "we shouldn't use GOTO here because we can do it more cleanly with destructors", it's "we shouldn't use GOTO here because Dijkstra said so!" |
| 13:57 | <&ToxicFrog> | jerith: conveniently, all of my C work tends to be personal tinkering~ |
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| 14:01 | <@Tarinaky> | ToxicFrog: Function calls are user cleaner than goto as well. |
| 14:01 | <@Tarinaky> | *usually |
| 14:01 | <@Tarinaky> | They just 'cost' ~3x as much. |
| 14:02 | <&jerith> | Tarinaky: Why does that 'cost' matter? |
| 14:02 | <&jerith> | (And if it does, you just tell the compiler to inline the function. It'll probably do it on its own anyway.) |
| 14:02 | <@Tarinaky> | jerith: If you're writing something like a kernel level dispatcher where your goto/function is going to be executed a LOT... |
| 14:03 | <@Tarinaky> | Inline isn't strictly the same thing though |
| 14:03 | <@Tarinaky> | Inline expands the function in memory. |
| 14:03 | <&jerith> | Tarinaky: If that kind of low-level performance matters, there had better be benchmarks. |
| 14:04 | <@Tarinaky> | GOTO is a single assembly instruction, vs bodging about the stack and then jumping... |
| 14:04 | <@Tarinaky> | jerith: I'm not disputing this. |
| 14:04 | <@Tarinaky> | jerith: All I'm saying is that even in C there are better ways of handling resource clean-up than goto |
| 14:05 | <&jerith> | Sure. |
| 14:07 | <@TheWatcher> | So, apparently, grepping 515GB of data for a 9 character string takes a while |
| 14:07 | <@TheWatcher> | Whod'athunkit? |
| 14:07 | <&jerith> | TheWatcher: I hope you're using fgrep at least? |
| 14:07 | <@TheWatcher> | yus |
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| 17:44 | <&McMartin> | jerith: Do you recall if you had a wishlist for Monocle? |
| 17:44 | <&McMartin> | It seems my next task is to doc what I have, but going forward from there you were one of the people who were poking at it... |
| 17:45 | <&jerith> | McMartin: I still need to look at it again. |
| 17:45 | <&McMartin> | The API got a near-top-to-bottom rewrite since you did your first python bindings draft. |
| 17:45 | <&jerith> | A nontrivial (but smallish) example game to port would be handy. |
| 17:45 | <&McMartin> | Yeah |
| 17:46 | <&McMartin> | Except I have exactly enough to start pushing DD again and it's not an example game~ |
| 17:46 | <&jerith> | I think I rewrote some of the Python code in the middle of that. |
| 17:46 | <&McMartin> | Earthball is more sophisticated now. |
| 17:46 | <&McMartin> | But I never did get around to writing Shoot The Thing |
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| 18:27 | <&McMartin> | jerith: ISTR you had specific issues with gaps in pygame, but I don't recall what they were. |
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| 22:20 | | * gnolam eyes these logs. |
| 22:20 | <@gnolam> | Either some of these people are running with misconfigured machines, or they date back to 1980. |
| 22:38 | <@Tarinaky> | Why not both? |
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| --- Log closed Fri Aug 15 00:00:52 2014 |