| --- Log opened Wed Aug 06 00:00:23 2014 |
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| 00:50 | <@Tarinaky> | Fictional Cryptography: Suppose I am using OTP to obsfucate a computer program. Instead of choosing my key randomly, I choose my key such that my computer program is transformed into the text of the King James V Bible. |
| 00:51 | <@Tarinaky> | Given that I know that the original plaintext was a computer program, and can thus make sensible deductions about the program header, is guessing the key any easier than if it were a random OTP key and a random crypt text. |
| 00:52 | <@Tarinaky> | s/program header/plain text's header/ |
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| 01:03 | <@RchrdB> | Don't think so. I believe that most cryptosystems actually provide some kind of checksum on purpose to make it possible to verify that you used the right key to decrypt. |
| 01:04 | <&McMartin> | I was under the impression that OTPs traditionally did not do this. |
| 01:07 | <&ToxicFrog> | They don't. That said, an OTP doesn't let you infer anything about later crypto blocks based on the content of earlier blocks, generally. |
| 01:09 | <&ToxicFrog> | So I don't think it would really help. |
| 01:15 | <@macdjord> | Reiver: ROLLBACK doesn't help if you if you have autocommit on. Or if you fail to immediately notice that you deleted the /wrong/ half of your data. Or if you make the mistake in a script. |
| 01:19 | <@Tarinaky> | My understanding of OTP is it only works perfectly if the key is random though. |
| 01:19 | <@Tarinaky> | Is a key that's deliberately chosen to achieve an arbitary transformation random? |
| 01:20 | <@Tarinaky> | Neither the plaintext or the King James Bible is random. |
| 01:24 | <~Vornicus> | OTP works perfectly if the key is random, but |
| 01:25 | <~Vornicus> | the king james bible is precisely as likely as *any other specific text of the same length* to come out of a random process |
| 01:25 | <~Vornicus> | (uniformly random, that is) |
| 01:25 | <~Vornicus> | Now, since you're also using OTP |
| 01:25 | <~Vornicus> | The next time you encrypt something, you get a different crypto mask |
| 01:27 | <~Vornicus> | Which since we're having this kind of fun |
| 01:27 | <~Vornicus> | Can give you, when you pick your next program to obfuscate, War & Peace |
| 01:28 | <@Tarinaky> | What if we stick to the Bible theme? There are a lot of bible translations.... |
| 01:28 | <~Vornicus> | Could do that too |
| 01:28 | <~Vornicus> | Doesn't matter. |
| 01:28 | <~Vornicus> | This is one-time pad |
| 01:28 | <@Tarinaky> | Presumably if we talk about 6 programs encoded as different bibles then the keys become less random? |
| 01:29 | <@Tarinaky> | Because the pads are very similar, statistically, then? |
| 01:29 | <~Vornicus> | Who cares, you can't tell what the next one will be |
| 01:29 | <~Vornicus> | This is one-time pad |
| 01:29 | <@Tarinaky> | Isn't an old attack vector for OTP to introduce a bias into your opponents pads? |
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| 01:32 | <@Reiv> | Correct |
| 01:32 | <@Reiv> | One-time pads only work so long as the pads are random. |
| 01:32 | <@Tarinaky> | Doesn't limiting your output texts as bible translations limit your pads randomness? |
| 01:32 | <@Reiv> | nah |
| 01:33 | <~Vornicus> | Well, thing is |
| 01:33 | <@Reiv> | Say you're encoding Pi. |
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| 01:33 | <@Tarinaky> | s/bible translations/english-language bible translations/ |
| 01:33 | <~Vornicus> | Obfuscating a program here is |
| 01:33 | <~Vornicus> | Uh |
| 01:33 | <~Vornicus> | Okay here's the problem with using proper crypto of any type to obfuscate a program: eventually, in order to execute the program, the program must be decrypted! |
| 01:34 | <@Tarinaky> | I'm not discussing wrt a serious implementation. |
| 01:34 | <@Tarinaky> | I just wanna talk about it. |
| 01:34 | <~Vornicus> | Which means, in a symmetric-key system like one-time pad, the person intending on running the program must know the pad. |
| 01:36 | <~Vornicus> | (this is also the fundamental failure of DRM systems: you're trying to prevent someone who can see the unencrypted signal from copying it) |
| 01:37 | <@Tarinaky> | (I know. Choir. Meet sermon.) |
| 01:38 | <@Reiv> | (Then why are you arguing) |
| 01:39 | <@Tarinaky> | (I'm not. I'm asking questions.) |
| 01:39 | <@Tarinaky> | (Because what I know about crypto fits in a small book) |
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| 02:26 | <@macdjord> | Tarinaky: Given /any/ program of the right length, there is some OTP that would encode that program into the KJB. |
| 02:27 | <@macdjord> | That said, this would be totall useless, since you can only find the apropriate pad once you have the program you want to transmit, and since OTPs must be transferred securely, you might as well just send the original program. |
| 02:28 | <@RchrdB> | Tarinaky, oh massive brainfart. I forgot that "OTP" stands for "one-time pad" and thought you were talking about "OTR". |
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| 10:24 | < Erik> | Workplace 3.0: "Please archive the files in this folder." "I don't see any files in that folder." "Try this other view." "I don't have access permissions." "Fine. Can you archive the files in this other folder?" "They're checked out. For four years. By someone above my access level." |
| 10:25 | <@TheWatcher> | >.< |
| 10:32 | < Erik> | "Have you tried contacting the person and seeing if they can check the files back in?" "Yes. They've left the company." "Blarg. Well, can you archive THAT folder?" "Archived already. Someone's been unusually diligent." "FFS, why do I pay you?" "IDK, why am I sitting here?" |
| 10:36 | < Erik> | I exaggerate slightly for comic effect. I am able to archive some files, but they're a small minority. |
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| 11:50 | < Erik> | First world problems: all documentation is in the form of video tutorials |
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| 11:52 | | * luke imagines 3rd world countries receiving instructions for medication in a video tutorial |
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| 12:11 | <&jerith> | Erik: That's not documentation. |
| 12:13 | < Erik> | jerith: It seems you have even more contempt for video tutorials. |
| 12:14 | <&jerith> | Erik: Video tutorials can be useful, but they're not documentation. |
| 12:14 | <@TheWatcher> | ^-- |
| 12:14 | <&jerith> | In the same way that a conference presentation is not documentation. |
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| 12:15 | <&jerith> | They're not searchable, they're hard to scan through, they can't be printed out, etc. |
| 12:16 | <&jerith> | Personally, I very seldom find video tutorials useful. |
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| 12:17 | <&jerith> | There is a large class of people (very few of whom are software developers) for whom video tutorials are extremely useful. |
| 12:18 | < Erik> | OK. First world problems: video tutorials have been substutited for the documentation I was supposed to have. It takes ten minutes to get to finding out how to do a thing, *if* I'm in the right video. |
| 12:19 | <&jerith> | Erik: That's why video tutorials aren't documentation. :-) |
| 12:19 | < Erik> | I share your gripes about no search, no skimming, no printing. Also, no brevity. |
| 12:19 | < Erik> | And it gets incredibly annoying when the speaker repeats himself, then stops to laugh at himself. |
| 12:20 | <&jerith> | I am confused by people who think video tutorials are an adequate substitute for docs. |
| 12:21 | <&jerith> | I suppose crap videos are easier to produce than crap docs. |
| 12:21 | < Erik> | Much easier. |
| 12:22 | < Erik> | Hit "record", talk, hit "stop recording". |
| 12:22 | <&jerith> | Good videos are as hard to produce as good docs. |
| 12:22 | <@TheWatcher> | Honestly, I'd argue they're harder |
| 12:22 | <&jerith> | TheWatcher: Good docs are hard. |
| 12:23 | <@TheWatcher> | At least with documentation, you can see what you've already written as you're writing it. |
| 12:23 | < Erik> | Videos are much harder to induce goodness in for much the same reasons that they aren't documentation. |
| 12:23 | < Erik> | Cropping for relevance is hard. |
| 12:23 | < Erik> | Finding that bit you want is hard. |
| 12:23 | < Erik> | Checking for repetition is hard. |
| 12:23 | < Erik> | Rearranging a sentence is hard. |
| 12:23 | <&jerith> | Erik: A good video tutorial is scripted and edited the same way a TV programme is. |
| 12:23 | <@TheWatcher> | jerith: I am extremely, nay painfully, aware of this >.> |
| 12:24 | <&jerith> | Most of the work happens long before you hit "record". |
| 12:25 | <&jerith> | I'm capable of writing adequate documentation when I put the effort in. |
| 12:25 | <&jerith> | I'm not capable of producing an adequate video. |
| 12:26 | <&jerith> | Video tutorials are much harder to update for new versions, too. |
| 12:26 | <&jerith> | You basically have to start from halfway every time. |
| 12:26 | <&jerith> | (Assuming you keep the scripts in revision control, etc.) |
| 12:28 | < Erik> | (ie. Assuming you keep a non-video version to work from) |
| 12:28 | < Erik> | (which says a lot about video) |
| 12:28 | <&jerith> | Erik: Sure. |
| 12:28 | <&jerith> | You could probably rerecord and replace segments of a video instead of the whole thing, but that's probably more effort. |
| 12:29 | <&jerith> | Documentation sources belong in the repository next to source code. |
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| 13:16 | < Erik> | What is this, the troll version of nerd sniping? https://twitter.com/garybernhardt/status/481957350681493504 |
| 13:16 | < Erik> | 'Reminder: the words "compiled language" and "interpreted language" have no meaning. None! You're making random meat noises with your mouth.' |
| 13:19 | <&jerith> | It's not entirely accurate, but it's pretty close. |
| 13:19 | <&jerith> | Where does a bytecode VM fit in? |
| 13:20 | <&jerith> | Python uses one of those, and it's traditionally called an "interpreted language". |
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| 13:20 | <&jerith> | So does Java, which is traditionally called a "compiled language". |
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| 13:21 | <&jerith> | The distinction people usually care about is static vs dynamic typing. |
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| 21:43 | | * McMartin reads backscroll |
| 21:43 | <&McMartin> | There are still things that are definitely compiled or interpreted languages, but advanced interpretation techniques and sophisticated compiler runtimes blur the lines a little |
| 21:44 | <&McMartin> | That said, if Python is going to a bytecoded internal VM, then it is totally a compiled language, IMO. |
| 21:44 | <&McMartin> | The edge of interpretation is "the AST of the actual source code is sitting there somewhere being used at some point during actual run time", IMO. |
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| --- Log closed Thu Aug 07 00:00:39 2014 |