| --- Log opened Wed Jun 25 00:00:24 2014 |
| 00:42 | | himi [fow035@Nightstar-v37cpe.internode.on.net] has quit [Operation timed out] |
| 02:16 | | Checkmate [Z@Nightstar-484uip.cust.comxnet.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 121 seconds] |
| 02:31 | | himi [fow035@Nightstar-q9amk4.ffp.csiro.au] has joined #code |
| 02:31 | | mode/#code [+o himi] by ChanServ |
| 02:44 | | Attilla [uid13723@Nightstar-ed0oqj.irccloud.com] has quit [[NS] Quit: Connection closed for inactivity] |
| 03:05 | <~Vornicus> | So the problem I guess with my design document is that I keep trying to go depth first |
| 03:07 | <~Vornicus> | And at some point I end up going "this is so detailed I practically have the code written" for a particular feature, and the other parts of the design that might depend on it aren't even vaguely specced out yet |
| 03:10 | <@Reiv> | Yeah, breadth is probably the way to go |
| 03:10 | <@Reiv> | But then that's annoying too isn't it |
| 03:13 | <~Vornicus> | Quite |
| 03:16 | <~Vornicus> | (I guess part of this is the way I've worked with "real" design documents before: the requirements documents of a military helicopter, and even then a tiny tiny little piece of same) |
| 03:17 | <~Vornicus> | (so I know what a really, really deep piece of a design document looks like.) |
| 03:18 | <@RchrdB> | I think you're fine. |
| 03:19 | <@Reiv> | The best method is actually two-stage |
| 03:20 | <@Reiv> | The broad, vague document that doesn't actually explain much, but defines which bits will do what |
| 03:20 | <@Reiv> | Then the depth spec which does the 'practically-written-the-code' bit, which refers to the Vague as you go so you don't end up trying to write absolutely everything as Section A. |
| 03:20 | | Xires is now known as ^Xires |
| 03:21 | <@Reiv> | We have that problem here - systems being built that deal with three things, when what you Really Needed was three systems each doing one thing, which then report to an overarching summary setup. |
| 03:21 | <@RchrdB> | What's the design document for? |
| 03:21 | <@Reiv> | Designing the codeplan to function similarly is a good approach. |
| 03:24 | <@RchrdB> | Nini all. |
| 03:26 | <~Vornicus> | RchrdB: it's for an irc version of Power Grid. A project I've had on some burner or other for months, because i keep, uh. Hiding from it. |
| 03:27 | <~Vornicus> | And some discussion with mcm makes me think that I've got my process wrong, that I need to get my design figured out a little more concretely before I can put code to a lot of it |
| 03:28 | <~Vornicus> | And my design document goes up to "crazy detailed" where I talk about the game rules but lots of other stuff is basically blank space,comparatively |
| 03:32 | | Turaiel[Offline] is now known as Turaiel |
| 03:32 | <@Reiv> | Work on the other stuff first, then? |
| 03:33 | <@Reiv> | wait, IRC power grid? |
| 03:33 | <@Reiv> | That's a whole heckuvalot of ASCII. |
| 03:34 | | ^Xires is now known as Xires |
| 03:34 | <~Vornicus> | Well, the problem is I then keep tyring to work at anywhere near the same level and it just plain doesn't work |
| 03:35 | <@Reiv> | So work at a higher level, and iterate. |
| 03:35 | <~Vornicus> | And no, I wouldn't be posting the map over IRC |
| 03:36 | <~Vornicus> | (I have a vague idea for making the map available but it's nutso) |
| 03:38 | <~Vornicus> | (well I guess not *very* nutso, but it does require figuring out how much data precisely is needed to reproduce the game state. It may not be terribly much) |
| 03:58 | | Kindamoody[zZz] is now known as Kindamoody |
| 04:20 | | celticminstrel [celticminst@Nightstar-18vggg.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [[NS] Quit: KABOOM! It seems that I have exploded. Please wait while I reinstall the universe.] |
| 04:20 | | celticminstrel [celticminst@Nightstar-18vggg.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #code |
| 04:20 | | mode/#code [+o celticminstrel] by ChanServ |
| 04:23 | | VirusJTG [VirusJTG@Nightstar-6i5vf7.sta.comporium.net] has quit [[NS] Quit: Program Shutting down] |
| 04:24 | | Kindamoody is now known as Kindamoody[zZz] |
| 05:24 | | RchrdB [RichardB@Nightstar-c6u.vd5.170.83.IP] has quit [[NS] Quit: Gone.] |
| 05:27 | | RchrdB [RichardB@Nightstar-c6u.vd5.170.83.IP] has joined #code |
| 05:47 | <~Vornicus> | Answer: 109 + 6 * player name length bytes gives complete public-information state. |
| 05:48 | | Turaiel is now known as Turaiel[Offline] |
| 05:48 | <&McMartin> | That's small enough you could put it in a URL query string. |
| 05:49 | <~Vornicus> | Guess what my plan was for visualization~ |
| 05:50 | <@Reiv> | That is indeed very short. |
| 05:50 | <@Reiv> | Is that with compression? |
| 05:52 | <~Vornicus> | Not per se. It's binary, and it coalesces permutation-type data into a single byte (with up to 3, distinct-player, connections per city, a 6-player game has 1 + 6 + 6*5 + 6*5*4 = 157 build states for a city to be in; I load all that into a single byte) |
| 05:52 | <~Vornicus> | But all the other data is whole bytes. |
| 05:53 | <~Vornicus> | (money is a short, not a byte) |
| 05:53 | <@Reiv> | Aha |
| 05:53 | <@Reiv> | You can get more than 255 dollars? |
| 05:53 | <~Vornicus> | Sure. At the highest (in a 2-player game) you can get $150 in a single round. |
| 05:54 | <~Vornicus> | (though at that size you're likely to spend it!) |
| 05:54 | <@Reiv> | <Wall-E> Whoa |
| 05:58 | <~Vornicus> | mmm, overshot. table order is implicit in player listing order; 103 bytes. |
| 05:59 | | * McMartin fires up http://souleyedigitalmusic.bandcamp.com/track/pressure-cooker-2 again, gets to work |
| 05:59 | <@Reiv> | That cuts out quite a few bytes. |
| 05:59 | <&McMartin> | well, six. |
| 06:00 | <@Reiv> | He went from 157 to 103 |
| 06:00 | <@Reiv> | I assume he cut things out elsewhere too then |
| 06:00 | <~Vornicus> | 109 to 103. |
| 06:00 | <~Vornicus> | 157 is number of distinct states for a single city |
| 06:01 | <&McMartin> | Which is "one byte per city" |
| 06:01 | <@Reiv> | ... oh, I can read |
| 06:01 | <@Reiv> | Nevermind~ |
| 06:01 | | * Reiv has had a long day. It has involved Many Numbers. |
| 06:01 | <@Reiv> | Aside: Fie unto thee who names their table join aliases as T1 through to *T33* |
| 06:02 | <@Reiv> | At that point I would have preferred you left the damn things longhand ¬¬ |
| 06:02 | <&McMartin> | tone through tthirtythree |
| 06:03 | <@Reiv> | I mean, I get that ODW.ODW_GTX_TRANSACT_HIST is kind of a pain |
| 06:03 | <@Reiv> | And indeed that is why aliases allow you to call it something handy and convinient, thus shortening query length |
| 06:03 | <@Reiv> | But calling it T22 does not, I must point out, dramatically improve readability. |
| 06:04 | <@Reiv> | Finally, such an arbitary naming system might just cause you issues, like, oh I dunno |
| 06:04 | <@Reiv> | The fact there were TWO TABLES ALIASED TO T18 |
| 06:04 | <~Vornicus> | Being hunted down and hung by the toenails |
| 06:04 | <~Vornicus> | Repeatedly |
| 06:04 | <@Reiv> | Oracle didn't even throw an error! |
| 06:06 | <@Reiv> | You managed to successfully avoid ever calling a column that was in both tables and thus escaped the dreaded ORA-00918 ("column ambiguously defined") failure, and apparently there *wasn't anything else* |
| 06:07 | <@Reiv> | I actually don't know how the database did not throw an error at this, but it's a database that is clearly too clever for its own good~ |
| 07:35 | | himi [fow035@Nightstar-q9amk4.ffp.csiro.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 121 seconds] |
| 07:53 | | Kindamoody[zZz] is now known as Kindamoody |
| 08:32 | | * Azash passes trial period, cheers |
| 08:32 | <@celticminstrel> | Trial period? |
| 08:33 | <@Azash> | Like, the first four months of my current job |
| 08:33 | <@celticminstrel> | Ah. |
| 08:33 | | * celticminstrel was thinking software evaluation trial periods. |
| 08:34 | <@Azash> | Oh lol |
| 08:44 | | Checkmate [Z@Nightstar-484uip.cust.comxnet.dk] has joined #code |
| 08:44 | | mode/#code [+o Checkmate] by ChanServ |
| 09:12 | | Vornicus [Vorn@Nightstar-sn7kve.sd.cox.net] has quit [[NS] Quit: Leaving] |
| 09:12 | | Kindamoody is now known as Kindamoody|out |
| 09:30 | | himi [fow035@Nightstar-v37cpe.internode.on.net] has joined #code |
| 09:30 | | mode/#code [+o himi] by ChanServ |
| 09:55 | | celticminstrel is now known as celmin|sleep |
| 10:07 | | mode/#code [+o RchrdB] by ChanServ |
| 11:05 | | VirusJTG [VirusJTG@Nightstar-6i5vf7.sta.comporium.net] has joined #code |
| 11:26 | | himi [fow035@Nightstar-v37cpe.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 121 seconds] |
| 11:39 | | himi [fow035@Nightstar-v37cpe.internode.on.net] has joined #code |
| 11:39 | | mode/#code [+o himi] by ChanServ |
| 13:47 | < [R]> | <Reiv> You managed to successfully avoid ever calling a column that was in both tables and thus escaped the dreaded ORA-00918 ("column ambiguously defined") failure, and apparently there *wasn't anything else* <-- I hate that with MySQL. You can't do ON(x_id = x_id), you have to do ON(table_a.x_id = table_b.x_id) |
| 13:52 | <@TheWatcher> | I think that's perfectly reasonable, really. |
| 13:52 | <@TheWatcher> | Hell, I do that automatically, because it's more obvious |
| 13:56 | | Tamber [tamber@furryhelix.co.uk] has quit [A TLS packet with unexpected length was received.] |
| 13:56 | | FurryHelix [tamber@furryhelix.co.uk] has joined #code |
| 14:01 | < [R]> | IMO `JOIN tablex ON (x_id)` is sufficiently clear. |
| 14:01 | < [R]> | Except that's ambigious apparently |
| 14:11 | | himi [fow035@Nightstar-v37cpe.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 121 seconds] |
| 14:14 | <@Azash> | It is |
| 14:14 | <@Azash> | Consider tables A, B and C all have the column foo |
| 14:14 | <@Azash> | A join B on condition join C on foo |
| 14:24 | | himi [fow035@Nightstar-v37cpe.internode.on.net] has joined #code |
| 14:24 | | mode/#code [+o himi] by ChanServ |
| 14:31 | | macdjord|slep is now known as macdjord|wurk |
| 14:47 | | Checkmate [Z@Nightstar-484uip.cust.comxnet.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 121 seconds] |
| 15:20 | | thalass [thalass@Nightstar-1enuc9.bigpond.net.au] has joined #code |
| 15:20 | | mode/#code [+o thalass] by ChanServ |
| 15:21 | <@Azash> | Meanwhile in this RoR project |
| 15:21 | <@Azash> | {{:a => :b} => {:c => :d}} |
| 15:43 | | Checkmate [Z@Nightstar-ro94ms.balk.dk] has joined #code |
| 15:43 | | mode/#code [+o Checkmate] by ChanServ |
| 15:49 | | Kindamoody|out is now known as Kindamoody |
| 16:05 | | * gnolam vomits undigested decimal separators over Python's locale module. |
| 16:13 | | FurryHelix is now known as Tamber |
| 16:13 | | mode/#code [+o Tamber] by ChanServ |
| 16:13 | | * Tamber pelts aforementioned locale module with BS 8888 decimal and digit separators. |
| 16:15 | | * ErikMesoy covers the module in ignorance. |
| 16:16 | <@gnolam> | Well, really, I should be vomiting over POSIX, but Python deserves my regurgitations for not having an alternative. |
| 16:29 | | thalass [thalass@Nightstar-1enuc9.bigpond.net.au] has quit [[NS] Quit: g'night!] |
| 17:01 | | ToxicFrog [ToxicFrog@ServerAdministrator.Nightstar.Net] has quit [Operation timed out] |
| 17:02 | | ToxicFrog [ToxicFrog@ServerAdministrator.Nightstar.Net] has joined #code |
| 17:02 | | mode/#code [+ao ToxicFrog ToxicFrog] by ChanServ |
| 17:36 | | ToxicFrog [ToxicFrog@ServerAdministrator.Nightstar.Net] has quit [[NS] Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in] |
| 17:38 | | ToxicFrog [ToxicFrog@ServerAdministrator.Nightstar.Net] has joined #code |
| 17:38 | | mode/#code [+ao ToxicFrog ToxicFrog] by ChanServ |
| 17:40 | | Orthia [orthianz@Nightstar-mvf.9c1.224.119.IP] has quit [Ping timeout: 121 seconds] |
| 17:40 | | Orthia [orthianz@Nightstar-mvf.9c1.224.119.IP] has joined #code |
| 17:40 | | mode/#code [+o Orthia] by ChanServ |
| 17:40 | | celmin|sleep is now known as celticminstrel |
| 17:41 | | Nemu [NeophoxProd@Nightstar-kpuumf.gv.shawcable.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 121 seconds] |
| 17:45 | | ToxicFrog [ToxicFrog@ServerAdministrator.Nightstar.Net] has quit [[NS] Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in] |
| 17:47 | | ToxicFrog [ToxicFrog@ServerAdministrator.Nightstar.Net] has joined #code |
| 17:47 | | mode/#code [+ao ToxicFrog ToxicFrog] by ChanServ |
| 17:58 | | ToxicFrog [ToxicFrog@ServerAdministrator.Nightstar.Net] has quit [[NS] Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in] |
| 18:00 | | ToxicFrog [ToxicFrog@ServerAdministrator.Nightstar.Net] has joined #code |
| 18:00 | | mode/#code [+ao ToxicFrog ToxicFrog] by ChanServ |
| 18:56 | <&jerith> | http://www.redblobgames.com/grids/hexagons/ |
| 19:01 | | Kindamoody is now known as Kindamoody|afk |
| 19:11 | | * TheWatcher eyes that page |
| 19:12 | <@TheWatcher> | Bloody hell, that's an impressive collection of information. |
| 19:14 | <&jerith> | I haven't read it yet, but it looks good. |
| 20:23 | | Kindamoody|afk is now known as Kindamoody |
| 20:37 | | * gnolam moves up in the world! |
| 20:38 | <@gnolam> | Now I get to debug VB/6/ code as well as VB5.~ |
| 20:38 | <@ErikMesoy> | Do you also get an office on the 6th instead of 5th floor? |
| 20:44 | <&jerith> | 6th floor offices have better windows to jump out of.~ |
| 21:02 | | Kindamoody is now known as Kindamoody[zZz] |
| 23:10 | | Checkmate [Z@Nightstar-ro94ms.balk.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 121 seconds] |
| 23:39 | | Turaiel[Offline] [Brandon@Nightstar-5st1eu.mi.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 121 seconds] |
| 23:41 | | Turaiel[Offline] [Brandon@Nightstar-5st1eu.mi.comcast.net] has joined #code |
| 23:44 | | Checkmate [Z@Nightstar-484uip.cust.comxnet.dk] has joined #code |
| 23:44 | | mode/#code [+o Checkmate] by ChanServ |
| 23:45 | | macdjord|wurk is now known as macdjord |
| 23:59 | | jeroud [sid10043@Nightstar-uub.9ff.184.192.IP] has quit [Ping timeout: 121 seconds] |
| --- Log closed Thu Jun 26 00:00:40 2014 |