| --- Log opened Tue Jun 17 00:00:05 2014 |
| 00:21 | | Turaiel[Offline] is now known as Turaiel |
| 00:44 | | Derakon[AFK] is now known as Derakon |
| 00:56 | | * Derakon looks up. |
| 00:56 | <&Derakon> | "Object-oriented" programming could also be described as "modular" programming. |
| 00:56 | <&Derakon> | In the sense that the goal is to be able to chop up your program into nominally-independent bits so that if you have to change one aspect of it, you know what other aspects will be affected. |
| 00:56 | <&Derakon> | Of course, you can write spaghetti code in any language or design approach. |
| 00:57 | <&McMartin> | Modular programming predates OO. |
| 00:57 | <&Derakon> | In bad OO, that generally consists of making all your fields public (or similarly having lots of direct field access and reliance on implicit functionality) |
| 00:57 | <&Derakon> | McM: sure, OO is just a specific formalization of the concept. |
| 00:58 | < Nemu> | Then there may be other formalizations that are more suited to some scenarios, no? |
| 00:58 | <&Derakon> | Yep. |
| 00:58 | <&Derakon> | For example, Model/View/Controller. |
| 00:58 | <&McMartin> | MVC is generally done with OO. |
| 00:58 | < Nemu> | Hmm. I didn't realize that was a separate formalization |
| 00:58 | <&McMartin> | (I would say OO is modules + virtual functions) |
| 00:58 | < Nemu> | I know of views from python |
| 00:58 | <&McMartin> | Different "View" |
| 00:59 | <&McMartin> | That view is a way to get around multiple inheritance being shit |
| 00:59 | <&McMartin> | This view is "the part of the program responsible for the gui" |
| 00:59 | < Nemu> | Really? I thought that view was intended to break data from it's representation |
| 00:59 | < Nemu> | They python view |
| 00:59 | < Nemu> | *the] |
| 00:59 | < Nemu> | ... |
| 01:00 | | * Derakon checks what Python views are. |
| 01:00 | <&Derakon> | Ah. |
| 01:00 | <&McMartin> | Ssorta |
| 01:00 | <&McMartin> | I'm a little rusty here too |
| 01:00 | <&McMartin> | OO "view" in general isn't the MVC view though |
| 01:00 | <&Derakon> | This is more like "you can limit the scope of your operations to a subset of the data". |
| 01:00 | <&Derakon> | Whereas the view in MVC is more "this is how you expose the data to the user". |
| 01:00 | <&McMartin> | Yeah, now that I think about it, classical OO view is for statically typed OO, which Python isn't. |
| 01:00 | <~Vornicus> | My Verb Cats |
| 01:01 | <&McMartin> | It's where instead of deriving from A and B, you derive from only A and have an asB() method that returns a B backed by you. |
| 01:01 | <&Derakon> | McM: yeah, classic OO requires some form of data hiding to really work. |
| 01:01 | <&McMartin> | asB() gives you a B "view" |
| 01:01 | <&Derakon> | Python OO is more "polite" OO, i.e. "I have these fields, but I request that you ignore them in preference for these methods." |
| 01:01 | <&McMartin> | Objects in general are a clumsy substitute for closures, with one handy scope hack~ |
| 01:01 | <&Derakon> | Heh. |
| 01:03 | < Nemu> | Ah, yeah, that actually bothers me about Python |
| 01:03 | < Nemu> | Too easy to poke something that shouldn't be poked as a quick fix, for example |
| 01:48 | <@celticminstrel> | Though the obfuscation of names beginning with __ probably makes it hard to poke at private fields? |
| 01:48 | <@celticminstrel> | But not impossible, probably. |
| 01:48 | <@celticminstrel> | Of course, this assumes the class names its private fields something starting with __ |
| 01:49 | <&Derakon> | It doesn't make it hard at all. Double-underscore is a convention, nothing more. |
| 01:49 | <&Derakon> | It's like putting a "please don't open" notice on a door, instead of using a lock. |
| 01:49 | <@celticminstrel> | If you name a class member __var, you can't access it via instance.__var. |
| 01:50 | <@celticminstrel> | I think you can access it by instance.<something>__var though |
| 01:50 | <@celticminstrel> | Where <something> isn't specified. |
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| 01:50 | <@celticminstrel> | Might be the class name, or a random string... |
| 01:56 | <&Derakon> | If nothing else, you should be able to use instance.__dict__["__var"]. |
| 01:57 | <&Derakon> | Which is a hell of a lot easier than using, say, Java's introspection and accessibility-modification functions. |
| 02:03 | <&McMartin> | Those still make it possible. In C++ (or C if you mimic this effect) you literally cannot do this without knowing how the compiler lays stuff out. |
| 02:04 | <@celticminstrel> | Dunno if __dict__ works there, actually. |
| 02:04 | <@celticminstrel> | Maybe it does, |
| 02:08 | | io\USA is now known as iospace |
| 02:09 | <&Derakon> | >>> class Foo: |
| 02:09 | <&Derakon> | ... def __init__(self): |
| 02:09 | <&Derakon> | ... self.__foo = 1 |
| 02:09 | <&Derakon> | ... |
| 02:09 | <&Derakon> | >>> foo = Foo() |
| 02:09 | <&Derakon> | >>> foo.__dict__ |
| 02:09 | <&Derakon> | {'_Foo__foo': 1} |
| 02:09 | <&Derakon> | So it kind of works. |
| 02:09 | <&Derakon> | The name gets mangled, but it's there. |
| 02:12 | <@celticminstrel> | Yeah, that's what I was trying to say. |
| 02:12 | <@celticminstrel> | Seems silly to use the classname for the mangling though. Ah well. |
| 02:13 | <&Derakon> | It's guaranteed to be unique in local scope, which is all you need. |
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| --- Log closed Tue Jun 17 12:18:06 2014 |
| --- Log opened Tue Jun 17 12:20:31 2014 |
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| --- Log opened Tue Jun 17 12:22:29 2014 |
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| 23:23 | <&McMartin> | A question for the channel, particularly those nearer to their student years than me |
| 23:23 | <&McMartin> | Do you guys have any book recommendations for a skilled programmer learning C++? |
| 23:24 | <&McMartin> | I'm pointing them at Stroustrup's tome, but it seems like there might be others. |
| 23:42 | <@Azash> | McMartin: I'm hosting one |
| 23:42 | <@Azash> | http://cs.helsinki.fi/u/lindert/ticpp/ |
| 23:52 | <&ToxicFrog> | McMartin: I have no recommendations there other than "don't do what I did" |
| 23:53 | <&ToxicFrog> | (i.e. learn it as you go hacking on a giant special-purpose OS written entirely in C++) |
| --- Log closed Wed Jun 18 00:00:33 2014 |