| --- Log opened Thu May 15 00:00:05 2014 |
| 00:01 | <&ToxicFrog> | Tarinaky: if you haven't read Ignition, you need to. |
| 00:01 | <&ToxicFrog> | McMartin: nice knowing you~ |
| 00:02 | < Julius> | IF YOU'RE GOING TOO SLOW, I FEEL BAD FOR YOU, SON. I GOT 99 BOOSTERS, ALL IN STAGE 1. |
| 00:02 | <&ToxicFrog> | snrk |
| 00:03 | <&McMartin> | ToxicFrog: Well, the issue is that I rarely have enough brain to play such things. |
| 00:03 | <&McMartin> | So JEBEDIAH KERMAN, THRILLMASTER (DIED AS HE LIVED: AT 450 KM/S) has remained grounded. |
| 00:04 | <@TheWatcher> | One word: Mechjeb~ |
| 00:04 | <@Tarinaky> | 1) 450 km/s isn't very Kerbal. |
| 00:04 | <@Tarinaky> | More like lithobraking from 4,500 km/s |
| 00:04 | <&ToxicFrog> | McMartin: well, if you lack brain you can just slap together excessively large contraptions and watch them explode, but not everyone enjoys that |
| 00:04 | <@Tarinaky> | 2) It doesn't take too much brain to get up into orbit., |
| 00:04 | <&McMartin> | 450 km/s is pretty absurd as-is~ |
| 00:05 | <@Tarinaky> | Particularly since all the features they added since the demo made it easy |
| 00:05 | <@TheWatcher> | Tarinaky: and yet I know several otherwise intelligent people who consistently fail at getting into space and staying there. |
| 00:05 | < Julius> | Must be like programming. |
| 00:05 | <@Tarinaky> | McMartin: Not if you've just mis-judged the height of a mountain while planning to aerobrake from a Jool transfer but don't want to wait forever and want to do it in only a couple of encounters. |
| 00:06 | <&ToxicFrog> | Tarinaky: km/s. |
| 00:06 | <&ToxicFrog> | Not m/s. |
| 00:06 | <&ToxicFrog> | I'm pretty sure 450km/s is well into Kraken territory. |
| 00:06 | <@Tarinaky> | Ah. |
| 00:06 | <@Tarinaky> | Yes. |
| 00:06 | <@Tarinaky> | My bad. |
| 00:07 | <&ToxicFrog> | TheWatcher: IME, this is invariably due to a lack of understanding of orbital mechanics and the fact that going sideways is much more important than going up. |
| 00:07 | <@TheWatcher> | Aye. |
| 00:09 | <@Tarinaky> | It's probably cheating to abuse the fact that KSP doesn't have heating effects from re-entry. |
| 00:09 | <@Tarinaky> | But the alternatives are unappealing. |
| 00:12 | <&ToxicFrog> | Install Deadly Reentry and FAR and it does :getin: |
| 00:12 | <@Tarinaky> | Yes. But that tends to make the game boring. |
| 00:16 | < Julius> | Fun makes the game boring? |
| 00:17 | <&McMartin> | "Fun" |
| 00:17 | < Julius> | Capital F. |
| 00:17 | <&McMartin> | The DF form of Fun. |
| 00:17 | < Julius> | Yes. |
| 00:18 | <~Vornicus> | it's only 0.0015c |
| 00:21 | <@Tarinaky> | Well, getting the angle right is a matter of save-scumming... |
| 00:22 | <@Tarinaky> | And having to do multiple aerobraking passes can take forever and is just boring |
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| 00:42 | < Julius> | Assuming a space environment without gravity to contend with, how much could a conventional rocket, of the kind that were used to get to the Moon, cover in one day, starting from zero velocity? |
| 00:43 | <@Tarinaky> | Saturn V or the actual going-to-the-moon bit? |
| 00:44 | < Julius> | Don't care. I'm after a ballpark figure for spacecraft capable of leaving Earth usefully. |
| 00:45 | | * Tarinaky tries to remember the right equation |
| 00:46 | <@Tarinaky> | ~1.4 m/s^2 accelleration for a fully-loaded Saturn-V |
| 00:46 | <@Tarinaky> | First-stage |
| 00:46 | <@Tarinaky> | Trying to remember the equation I want though |
| 00:48 | <@Tarinaky> | s = 1/2 a t^2 iirc. |
| 00:48 | <@Tarinaky> | t = sqrt (1/2 a/s) |
| 00:48 | <@Tarinaky> | Half the semi-major axis of the moon is... 385k km |
| 00:49 | <@Tarinaky> | 11,726 sec |
| 00:50 | <@Tarinaky> | Oh wait. |
| 00:50 | <@Tarinaky> | I derped on the question |
| 00:51 | <@Tarinaky> | At a constant accel of 1.4 m/s^2 for 1 day you travel 5,225k km |
| 00:53 | <@Tarinaky> | I'll note though that a rocket doesn't have constant acceleration, because it's burning fuel - but equally limits the burn time of each stage to a little over a couple of minutes. |
| 00:53 | <@Tarinaky> | So going to assume the Magic device that generates infinite clean energy weighs the same as a fuck-ton of fuel |
| 00:53 | < Julius> | That's fine. |
| 00:54 | < Julius> | Hmmm. OK. that's like 3.5% of an AU. |
| 00:55 | < Julius> | And that's almost 7 of my custom distance units. |
| 00:56 | <@Tarinaky> | You can decrease the mass to get more acceleration. |
| 00:56 | <@Tarinaky> | The weight of our magical-power source is kinda arbitrary. |
| 00:57 | <@Tarinaky> | The empty mass is 131 tons, the gross mass is 2,300 tons. |
| 00:57 | <@Tarinaky> | So plenty of room to play with there. |
| 01:00 | < Julius> | Hmm. What's a sane maximum velocity for a rocket made of contemporary materials before random particles and micrometeors of the interplanetary medium begin to be dangerous? |
| 01:00 | <&ToxicFrog> | Wait wait wait |
| 01:01 | <&ToxicFrog> | "how far could a conventional rocket get in one day" and "how far do you travel in one day given constant acceleration" are two totally different questions |
| 01:01 | < Julius> | ToxicFrog: What I want to know is if such a rocket accelerated constantly for one day from a dead start, how far it could go. |
| 01:01 | <&ToxicFrog> | Aah. |
| 01:03 | <&ToxicFrog> | Also, Tarinaky, where are you getting 1.4m/s^2 for a saturn V first stage? That gives a TWR of way less than 1, it wouldn't even get off the ground. |
| 01:04 | <@Reiv> | Worth noting that a Saturn is able to accelerate a hell of a lot less than a day |
| 01:05 | < Julius> | MAGIC DEVICE. |
| 01:05 | <@Reiv> | Well, do you want a saturns initial burn, or its orbital burns? |
| 01:05 | <@Tarinaky> | ToxicFrog: Wikipedia. |
| 01:05 | <@Reiv> | Pretty sure it's early-stage burns punch hard enough that they'd risk killing your crew if you did them for a whole day. |
| 01:06 | <@Tarinaky> | I took the thrust in Newtons and divided by the gross mass. |
| 01:06 | < Julius> | Reiv: Deep space, no appreciable gravity. |
| 01:06 | | * simon_ just found a rodent bone fragment in his bag of sesame seeds. |
| 01:06 | <@Reiv> | Doesn't change the amount of force you're applying. |
| 01:07 | < Julius> | simon_: Bonus! |
| 01:07 | <@Tarinaky> | Reiv: ...To the whole rocket. The amount of force applied to the crew is the crew's mass times the accelleration. |
| 01:08 | <@Reiv> | Right, but my argumeent is that if a rocket can pull 5G, you'll feel 5G whether you started in a gravwell or in outer space |
| 01:08 | <@Tarinaky> | Right. Fair. |
| 01:08 | <@Reiv> | All that changes is the rockets speed relative to the point of measurement, not the G-forces experienced. |
| 01:08 | <@Tarinaky> | But it's the accel that matters, not the force. |
| 01:08 | <@Reiv> | I should have used 'thrust', I guess, oh well. |
| 01:09 | <@Tarinaky> | Thrust is a force :P |
| 01:09 | <@Reiv> | MAKE THING GO FASTER NUMBER |
| 01:09 | | * Reiv nods sagely. Is great caveman engineer. |
| 01:10 | < Julius> | Anyway. How fast is too fast? |
| 01:10 | <&ToxicFrog> | Tarinaky: you screwed up the math somewhere, then. |
| 01:11 | <@Tarinaky> | Quite likely. |
| 01:12 | <@Tarinaky> | Although it's possible that it just loses a lot of fuel immediately after ignition. |
| 01:12 | | macdjord|slep is now known as macdjord |
| 01:13 | <&ToxicFrog> | I get 34 MN (thrust of first stage) / 2.8 kt (total mass of rocket) == ~12 N/kg == 12 m/s^2 |
| 01:13 | <&ToxicFrog> | Which is a lot more plausible and gives it ~2m/s^2 off the pad. |
| 01:14 | <&ToxicFrog> | At 1.4m/s^2 it would have to lose 85% of its mass before it even started to lift off; NASA is not in fact that stupid. |
| 01:15 | <&ToxicFrog> | Julius: c |
| 01:15 | < Julius> | Haw. |
| 01:15 | < Julius> | ToxicFrog: But really, I suppose the infrequent tiny bits in space are going to be a problem for integrity of the craft if going at superfast speeds, right? |
| 01:16 | <@Tarinaky> | ToxicFrog: Yes. I realised that as I was half way to the toilet. |
| 01:16 | <@Tarinaky> | I probably just missed a 0 when typing it into the calculator. |
| 01:16 | <&ToxicFrog> | Yeah, probably. No idea how fast is too fast, though, and of course it's "too fast" relative to the local medium that matters |
| 01:17 | < Julius> | Tarinaky: How many zeroes should I append to your answer? |
| 01:17 | <@Tarinaky> | If you have a good number for what speed is too fast to withstand interstellar medium you should write a paper on how you divined that number. |
| 01:17 | <&ToxicFrog> | Put something in retrograde orbit around the sun and it's still going at the same speed but it's just gained a shittonne of relative velocity. |
| 01:17 | <@Tarinaky> | Julius: IDK. I'm trying to go to sleep. |
| 01:17 | <&ToxicFrog> | And numbers for, e.g., LEO vs LJO vs deep solar space vs interstellar medium will all be different. |
| 01:18 | <&ToxicFrog> | Julius: let's just round things and say one gravity of thrust for one day. Nice and comfy. Less than a saturn V, but on the other hand the fact that we're delivering that thrust for a full day means we have magic propulsion systems so whatever. |
| 01:18 | <@Tarinaky> | If it's good enough for Traveller! |
| 01:19 | < Julius> | Well, I figure it'd suffice to find out how massive the particles are and determine their energy when impacting the craft, compared to the strength of the material the craft is made of. |
| 01:19 | <&ToxicFrog> | d = (at^2)/2, IIRC |
| 01:19 | <@Tarinaky> | Julius: At least one of the things you mentioned was something being worked on by a PhD student at the University I failed to study Physics at for 2 years. |
| 01:19 | <&ToxicFrog> | so that's (/ (* g 86400 86400) 2) |
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| 01:20 | <&ToxicFrog> | => (let [g 9.8 day (* 24 60 60)] (/ (* g day day) 2)) |
| 01:20 | <&ToxicFrog> | 3.657830400000001E10 |
| 01:21 | < Julius> | That's in meters? |
| 01:21 | <&ToxicFrog> | Yes. |
| 01:22 | <&ToxicFrog> | => (let [g 9.8 day (* 24 60 60) ls 300000000] (/ (* g day day) 2 ls)) |
| 01:22 | <&ToxicFrog> | 121.92768000000002 |
| 01:22 | <&ToxicFrog> | There it is in light-seconds. |
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| 01:23 | <&ToxicFrog> | IIRC 1 AU is about 8 light-minutes, so that's ~0.25 au. |
| 01:23 | < Julius> | Yes. |
| 01:23 | < Julius> | I'm using a custom unit of 1/200 AU for convenience. |
| 01:24 | <&ToxicFrog> | Anyways. If you can do continuous burns, you can get around pretty quickly! |
| 01:24 | < Vorntastic> | So I'm doing remote desktop from my netbook to a computer all the way across the country and the remote is responding faster than the netbook itself. |
| 01:24 | < Julius> | Neat. |
| 01:24 | < Julius> | Thank you for your help, gentlemen. |
| 01:24 | <&ToxicFrog> | The problem is that your fuel fraction is now a Shakespearean tragedy, one of the really long ones where half the audience kills themselves |
| 01:24 | <&ToxicFrog> | Or you need a Bussard ramjet or something |
| 01:25 | <&ToxicFrog> | Or you're using an ion drive and accelerating continuously but at 0.001g |
| 01:26 | < Julius> | Is anyone using nuclear spacecraft yet? |
| 01:27 | <&ToxicFrog> | Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha |
| 01:27 | <&ToxicFrog> | People are whiny petulant children about anything with "nuclear" in the name |
| 01:28 | < Julius> | Don't I know it. My hometown is plastered with protest signs about not building a nuclear power plant nearby. |
| 01:28 | < Julius> | Fucking ignorant morons. |
| 01:29 | <&ToxicFrog> | Orion drives, NTRs, and fission fragment rockets are all dead fucking tech because no-one is willing to build them because ~*~nuclear~*~ |
| 01:29 | < Julius> | How about the Russians or Chinese? |
| 01:30 | <&ToxicFrog> | The only way it's happening before the asteroid colony secession in 21XX is if someone goes full Magneto and just builds one in their secret island fortress |
| 01:30 | <&ToxicFrog> | If they are they aren't talking about it and aren't testing it anywhere anyone can see |
| 01:30 | <&ToxicFrog> | And if they tried the US would probably shit all over their cornflakes anyways |
| 01:31 | < Julius> | Oh, hey, the Russians ARE doing something: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_propulsion#RKA_.28Russian_Federal_Space_Age ncy.29_NPS_development |
| 01:32 | <&ToxicFrog> | I mean, NASA is still kicking around designs for this stuff, AFAIK, but none of it is ever making it to the launchpad or even, I suspect, to the live-fire prototype stage. |
| 01:32 | < Julius> | Isn't NASA essentially unable to put anything in space anymore? |
| 01:33 | <&ToxicFrog> | Not really the same thing; that's a nuclear power system, ion drives powered by a fission reactor for electrical production |
| 01:33 | <@Reiv> | To be fair, Orion drives are kind of at the extreme end of 'nuclear power' |
| 01:33 | <&ToxicFrog> | One of the attractive things about true nuclear rockets is that you get not only high ISP but also, in most cases, high thrust |
| 01:33 | <@Reiv> | I mean, there is using uranium to produce heat |
| 01:33 | <@Reiv> | And then there is doing it via /actual thermonuclear detonations/ |
| 01:34 | <&ToxicFrog> | Reiv: if you don't want to go to that extreme, there's stuff like nuclear saltwater rockets and fission fragment rockets |
| 01:35 | <@Reiv> | Orions would mostly have the problem that not only do you get OMG NUCLEAR, you also get 'aw fuck, how many treaties did we just break?' |
| 01:35 | <@Reiv> | Yeah, I'm pointing out that Orions are only in the same class by an unfortunate technicality |
| 01:36 | <@Reiv> | (Kind of a shame. The *principle* behind them is wonderfully, batshit glorious) |
| 01:36 | < Julius> | It's not like the nuclear powers haven't detonated what? Thousands of experimental nukes so far? |
| 01:37 | < Julius> | http://blip.tv/ctbtomedia/1945-1998-by-isao-hashimoto-japan-2003-1671472 |
| 01:37 | <@Reiv> | Yeah, I feel like we should probably point that out to the anti-rocket crowd before they complain |
| 01:49 | < Julius> | 2053 nuclear explosions, and that's just up to 1998. |
| 02:20 | <@Reiv> | Right, which is why Nuclear Rockets should not be sneezed at as much as they are |
| 02:20 | <@macdjord> | <Tarinaky> Speaking of Orbital Mechanics. What's the most efficient transfer if you have infinite deltaV? |
| 02:20 | <@macdjord> | 'Brachistochrone trajectory' is the term you're looking for. |
| 02:20 | <@macdjord> | <Reiv> Orions would mostly have the problem that not only do you get OMG NUCLEAR, you also get 'aw fuck, how many treaties did we just break?' |
| 02:21 | <@Reiv> | That said I would admit to supporting a certain quantity of caution if people wanted to perhaps object to having several hundred launched in a single geographical area at an even spread of altitudes within five minutes, per launch, y'know? ¬¬ |
| 02:21 | <@macdjord> | Technically none! All the treaties are about nuclear /testing/. Industrial use - or actual use in *war* - is not banned. |
| 02:21 | <@Reiv> | macdjord: So you have to be careful to /not test/ your nuclear bomb powered space ship? |
| 02:22 | <@macdjord> | Assuming you're already a nuclear power; otherwise the non-proliferation treaties get you. |
| 02:23 | <@macdjord> | Reiv: I think that would be technically legit; you're not testing the /bomb/, you're testing the /ship/ using a previously tested warhead. |
| 02:23 | <@macdjord> | But, of course, /everybody/ would cry foul if you tried /any/ of this, so the technicalities don't matter much. |
| 02:24 | <@Reiv> | Wait, you're proposing using an off-the-shelf nuke instead of designing a built-for-purpose propellant bomb, to be mass produced and fired in rapid quantity? |
| 02:24 | <@macdjord> | Erm... I'm not sure. |
| 02:24 | <@macdjord> | 'Testing is banned, use is actually legal' is about the extent of my knowledge here. |
| 02:25 | <@macdjord> | Poke... Bob, I guess... if you want more. |
| 02:25 | <@Reiv> | Right, but my point is "You should probably test your new bomb before you build and then fire several hundred of them in quick succession" |
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| 05:25 | <@macdjord> | Why do people use '2K13'? It made some sense back before 2010, when it saved a character. But now? 4 characters (and sylables) either way. |
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| 05:37 | <&McMartin> | habit |
| 05:46 | <&McMartin> | Also, man |
| 05:46 | <&McMartin> | Extracting invariants from this assembly code was, uh, a lot easier than I expected it to be. |
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| 06:00 | <~Vornicus> | ?? |
| 06:05 | <&McMartin> | Working on that "ripping out the floating point routines" thing |
| 06:05 | <&McMartin> | It's got a bunch of obnoxious preconditions |
| 06:06 | <&McMartin> | (like, it demands that you have just loaded a specific location into the accumulator before calling it, which *usually* happens just before returning from a bunch of other functions) |
| 06:28 | <&McMartin> | Ladies, gents, merciless cyborgs |
| 06:28 | <&McMartin> | I would like my math checked |
| 06:28 | <&McMartin> | I fire a projectile in a vaccuum at 60 degrees from vertical at 100m/s, in constant 1g of gravity (9.8 m/s^2) |
| 06:29 | <&McMartin> | I have: impact at 17.67s and at 883.70m, with a maximum height reached of 1147.96m. |
| 06:29 | <&McMartin> | Er |
| 06:29 | <&McMartin> | 60 degrees from *horizontal*, sorry |
| 06:35 | <~Vornicus> | I get a much lower height, 382.65 |
| 06:35 | <~Vornicus> | energy checks out on that. |
| 06:36 | <~Vornicus> | the timing and distance appear to be right though. |
| 06:36 | <&McMartin> | OK. That probably means the formula's wrong. |
| 06:36 | | * McMartin fiddles with that. |
| 06:40 | <&McMartin> | I get 3v_0*sin(theta)/2*g |
| 06:40 | <&McMartin> | With raw kinematics |
| 06:40 | <&McMartin> | With energy... |
| 06:41 | <&McMartin> | I lose the factor of 3 |
| 06:41 | <&McMartin> | I've got a sign wrong in my kinematics, I bet |
| 06:42 | <&McMartin> | Yeah, there we go |
| 06:43 | <&McMartin> | 382.65 it is! |
| 06:43 | <&McMartin> | Woo, thanks |
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| 07:06 | <&McMartin> | The fruits of victory: https://github.com/michaelcmartin/Ophis/blob/master/examples/kinematics.oph |
| 07:10 | <&McMartin> | Things I should add: a special command for "work out the bytes for this floating point constant" |
| 07:35 | <@Reiv> | oph? |
| 07:35 | <@Reiv> | oh hey McMartin, maybe you can help |
| 07:35 | <@Reiv> | How much would shipping 5.2lb of Box from the US to NZ cost, approximately? |
| 07:47 | <~Vornicus> | For the record: horizontal distance is equal to vertical distance at approx 76deg from horizontal; initial vertical velocity must be 4 times initial horizontal velocity. Anything lower gives more horizontal than vertical. |
| 07:47 | <~Vornicus> | (atan(4) ~= 75.96 degrees) |
| 07:51 | <~Vornicus> | (at 100m/s initial total velocity in earth gravity you get about 480 meters/19.8 seconds) |
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| 12:02 | | * Azash hairpulls at broken Custom Hacks of Great Power that are broken enough to somehow not add td tags |
| 12:17 | <@Tarinaky> | The cloud: http://i.imgur.com/OOln251.jpg |
| 12:24 | <@TheWatcher> | That's.. um |
| 12:25 | <@TheWatcher> | Biohazard tape. Cute. |
| 12:37 | <@TheWatcher> | (also, I'm amused at the hilarious juxtaposition of all those machines with a wooden rack, and crappy folding chair. |
| 12:59 | < luke> | And the can of what looks like wd-40 is quite bemusing. |
| 13:02 | <@Tarinaky> | luke: No duct-tape in sight! |
| 13:03 | <@TheWatcher> | That looks like canned air, actually |
| 13:03 | <@TheWatcher> | Use it to blow dust and stuff out of equipment. |
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| 13:39 | < luke> | Tarinaky: I'm sure there's some stuffed in the bottom draw. |
| 14:08 | <@Azash> | I have been working on this for two days |
| 14:08 | <@Azash> | Fixed the issue by adding a = |
| 14:08 | | * Azash http://i.imgur.com/Oq4d1Bo.gif |
| 14:08 | < luke> | A = versus == problem? |
| 14:09 | <@Azash> | A rails behaviour change |
| 14:09 | <@Azash> | A function used in an erb needs <%= instead of <% now |
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| 18:57 | <@froztbyte> | "printed" is <%=, iirc |
| 18:57 | <@froztbyte> | although I'm still a bit unclear on erb scoping rules |
| 18:57 | <@froztbyte> | wanted to use it somewhat flexibly, but haven't really tried to yet |
| 18:58 | < Julius> | ToxicFrog: Your suggestion of difference-vectoring works best when acceleration is unlimited. Any ideas on how to make it work when acceleration IS limited? |
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| 19:23 | <@Azash> | froztbyte: Yes |
| 19:23 | <@Azash> | froztbyte: The function in question had used % due to being a dirty hack |
| 19:23 | <@Azash> | But sometime between the making of this software and the version I'm upgrading it to, it was changed to instead use %= as it ran everything within its bounds and then regurgitated the results |
| 19:24 | <&ToxicFrog> | Julius: not any good ones, I think. |
| 19:24 | <&ToxicFrog> | An S3 approach is to burn retrograde until your relative velocity is 0 and then just burn towards the target. |
| 19:24 | < Julius> | S3? |
| 19:24 | <&ToxicFrog> | But there is undoubtedly a better option, I just don't know what it is. |
| 19:24 | <&ToxicFrog> | Safe, Slow and Stupid. |
| 19:25 | < Julius> | Ha. |
| 19:25 | <&ToxicFrog> | (also, that doesn't work at all if the target is under acceleration) |
| 19:26 | <@froztbyte> | Azash: that is ruby in a nutshell, fwiw |
| 19:26 | <@froztbyte> | Azash: that kind of hack->change setup |
| 19:36 | <@RchrdB> | ToxicFrog, S³ ð¼ |
| 19:42 | <@Azash> | froztbyte: Iterative development~ |
| 19:42 | <@Azash> | I mean, I'd be lying if I said that's not how I work |
| 19:42 | <@Azash> | ( ââ¿â) |
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| --- Log closed Fri May 16 00:00:21 2014 |