| --- Log opened Sat May 10 00:00:12 2014 |
| --- Day changed Sat May 10 2014 |
| 00:00 | <~Vornicus> | it's not vec1*vec2 that I want, it's num*vec |
| 00:00 | <&ToxicFrog> | Oh |
| 00:00 | <&ToxicFrog> | Still works! |
| 00:00 | <~Vornicus> | But yes, lua's not very problematic; I can implement it there instead of on my numeric type. Which is itself not as problematic in lua because I only have one! |
| 00:01 | <&ToxicFrog> | You do need to check at runtime whether you're doing vec*vec or num*vec and handle appropriately, though~ |
| 00:01 | <~Vornicus> | vec*vec is illegal~ |
| 00:04 | <&ToxicFrog> | The concern there is that if you naiively implement __mul as function __mul(xs, n) return map(function(x) return x*n end, xs) end |
| 00:04 | <&ToxicFrog> | In that case, the * inside the map...invokes n's __mul |
| 00:04 | <&ToxicFrog> | And you do actually get a result back. |
| 00:04 | <&ToxicFrog> | Just not a good one. |
| 00:05 | <~Vornicus> | Right, you have to do some dispatch. I'll live, at least I end up only having to actually write it once. |
| 01:08 | <&Derakon> | So, today I did a bad thing at work. |
| 01:08 | <&Derakon> | But I maintain it was not my fault. |
| 01:09 | <&Derakon> | Our program, Micro-Manager, is built on top of another program, ImageJ. |
| 01:09 | <&Derakon> | We make use of its image-display capabilities; it's built for scientific data analysis. |
| 01:09 | <&Derakon> | So e.g. you can display a 4D dataset (X, Y, depth, and time) as a series of 2D images "stacked" on top of each other, with scrollbars to select which depth/time coordinates to view. |
| 01:10 | <&Derakon> | These scrollbars are provided by ImageJ, but our old code was doing a lot of hacks to work with them. I set about cleaning things up, and in the process replaced the ImageJ scrollbars with our own. |
| 01:10 | <&Derakon> | Which, as it turns out, broke an ImageJ plugin (not directly related to our code, but one of the reasons we use ImageJ is to leverage its plugin suite). |
| 01:11 | <&Derakon> | Reason being, that code does this: |
| 01:11 | <&Derakon> | Component[] components = window.getComponents(); |
| 01:11 | <&Derakon> | ((ScrollbarWithLabel) components[1]).doSomething(); |
| 01:11 | <@TheWatcher> | ... |
| 01:11 | <&Derakon> | That is, get all of the GUI objects in the image display window, then assume that the second one has a specific type. |
| 01:12 | <&Derakon> | Since I removed the ImageJ scrollbars, this fails hilariously, popping up a window with a Java stack trace for the user to peruse. |
| 01:12 | <@TheWatcher> | Yeah, that's some crappy coding there. |
| 01:12 | <&Derakon> | So. |
| 01:12 | <&Derakon> | My "solution" was to override the getComponents() function on the window and return a list of components that includes the old ImageJ scrollbars, even though they aren't actually part of the window any more and don't do anything when manipulated. |
| 01:12 | <&Derakon> | s/list/array/ |
| 01:14 | | You're now known as TheWatcher[T-2] |
| 01:14 | <@TheWatcher[T-2]> | Can't fix the plugin directly, I take it? |
| 01:15 | <&Derakon> | Nope, that's ImageJ code. |
| 01:15 | <@TheWatcher[T-2]> | Bleegh |
| 01:15 | <&Derakon> | I mean, I could maybe submit a patch, but who knows what their release cycle is like? |
| 01:15 | <@TheWatcher[T-2]> | Aye |
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| 05:40 | | * McMartin does some manual pulls. |
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| 07:26 | <&McMartin> | OK, this is working out pretty well |
| 07:36 | < Harlow> | whats working out? |
| 07:37 | <&McMartin> | I'm trying to make a label-dumper for my assembler |
| 07:37 | <&McMartin> | This is a little tricky because it also allows for nested macros. |
| 07:38 | <&McMartin> | But I think I've got a workable report. |
| 07:38 | < Harlow> | oh man what does that code look like |
| 07:38 | <&McMartin> | Heh. Mostly I'm exploiting my error report code. |
| 07:39 | <&McMartin> | I've got these nested label namespaces, and they record program points for reporting errors. |
| 07:39 | <&McMartin> | So I added an assembler pass that flips through the code just before emitting the output, finding every place a label is defined, and sticking the error report program point in with the label name and the location the assembler is mapping it to. |
| 07:40 | <&McMartin> | After that it's all just text formatting. |
| 07:40 | < Harlow> | ah |
| 07:40 | < Harlow> | what exactly will that code be used for? |
| 07:41 | <&McMartin> | Some of the people who use this assembler are using it to write programs for kit-built 8-bit microcomputers. |
| 07:41 | <&McMartin> | So this map file will let them map memory addresses in the final binary blob to source code locations. |
| 07:41 | <&McMartin> | And named variables, etc. |
| 07:42 | <&McMartin> | https://github.com/michaelcmartin/Ophis/issues/21 |
| 07:42 | < Harlow> | ah |
| 07:42 | < Harlow> | so you program in assembly? |
| 07:42 | <&McMartin> | I program in all sorts of things. |
| 07:43 | <&McMartin> | But when I'm writing code for the NES, the Atari 2600, or the Commodore 64, I work in assembly, yeah. |
| 07:43 | <&McMartin> | I've only recently gotten the kind of references that will let me rip out parts of the C64's BASIC ROM and use them as a support library for assembly programs. |
| 07:44 | <&McMartin> | The assembler *itself* is one I wrote from scratch, and it's written in Python. |
| 07:44 | <&McMartin> | When I'm writing code professionally it's C++ with some Python on the side. |
| 07:44 | <&McMartin> | Hobby programming adds in raw C and a few Lisp dialects on occasion. |
| 07:44 | < Harlow> | why lisp? |
| 07:45 | <&McMartin> | "Why not", mainly, but Scheme has a really high-quality code generator that I've occasionally played with to see how it works. |
| 07:45 | <&McMartin> | I don't have any released code using it for anything, but I might throw together some Scheme bindings for the 2D game engine I fiddle with on and off. |
| 07:46 | <&McMartin> | Of games I've worked on and actually put online anywhere, they're all in C, C++, or Inform 7. |
| 07:46 | < Harlow> | ah |
| 07:46 | < Harlow> | really |
| 07:46 | < Harlow> | you've worked on games? |
| 07:47 | <&McMartin> | I was one of the leaders of the Ur-Quan Masters project |
| 07:47 | < Harlow> | you sound like you're into a little bit of everything. |
| 07:47 | <&McMartin> | I placed 8th out of 30-odd in the 2010 Interactive Fiction Competition |
| 07:47 | <&McMartin> | The rest was juvenilia |
| 07:47 | <&McMartin> | And yeah, I try to mess around with anything I can get my hands on :) |
| 07:48 | | macdjord is now known as macdjord|slep |
| 07:49 | <&McMartin> | Oh right, I threw together a super-siple NES game back in '03. https://hkn.eecs.berkeley.edu/~mcmartin/retro/gp_enh.zip |
| 07:49 | <&McMartin> | *simple |
| 07:50 | < Harlow> | Berkeley! |
| 07:51 | < Harlow> | mcmartin do you have a PhD? |
| 07:51 | <&McMartin> | Yeah. Undergrad at Berkeley, Grad at Stanford. |
| 07:52 | <&McMartin> | My research was on tracking complicated events happening at runtime, though my opinion is that I basically got a negative result |
| 07:52 | < Harlow> | Neat, I applied to Stanford, they're supposed to get back to me on the 15th. |
| 07:52 | <&McMartin> | Cool. Good luck. |
| 07:52 | <&McMartin> | Undergrad or Grad? |
| 07:52 | < Harlow> | Undergrad (transfer) |
| 07:53 | | * McMartin nods |
| 07:53 | <&McMartin> | I don't know a whole lot about their undergrad programs |
| 07:53 | <&McMartin> | ... and it would be about a decade out of date -_- |
| 07:53 | < Harlow> | They have a lot more grad students than undergrad. |
| 07:53 | <&jeroud> | o/ |
| 08:06 | <~Vornicus> | I remember being on some linux system at some point and downloading an NES emu and one of the games it came with was McM's |
| 08:07 | <~Vornicus> | actually iirc it was the only one it came with |
| 08:12 | | * McMartin blinks |
| 08:12 | <&McMartin> | That's tolerably bizarre |
| 08:25 | < Harlow> | mcmartin can you elaborate on your research? |
| 08:26 | <&McMartin> | I built a system where you'd write a snipped of java-looking code, and then it would instrument a target Java program to find cases of that snippet of code happening at runtime, for some generalized version of "that snippet" |
| 08:26 | <&McMartin> | Most of the good research results that came out of it were for doing things like generalized taint analysis - basically, you'd write a snippet that described what a SQL injection or whatever would look like and then set it loose to go look for that. |
| 08:27 | <&McMartin> | There were some ties to other projects of the time, too, so there was some fun stuff there |
| 08:27 | <&McMartin> | But it was too expensive for the Aspect-Oriented software folk to consider it more than an extreme case, and while the security folks thought it was a neat toy every result it got could be gotten more cheaply some other way |
| 08:27 | <&McMartin> | There were a couple of places where it pushed other people's systems harder than they'd ever been pushed, so that was neat. |
| 08:28 | < Harlow> | lel |
| 08:28 | <&McMartin> | The actual system is still on Sourceforge, I think, but it worked by hacking raw Java bytecodes, and those had a major format change around the time I graduated so I don't think it works anymore. |
| 08:29 | < Harlow> | do you know what big in research nowadays? |
| 08:29 | < Harlow> | what is* |
| 08:29 | <&McMartin> | I'm afraid I don't. I was part of a compiler research group, and it was moving to program analysis when I went in, and it seems to be transitioning over to stuff like mobile or ubiquitous computing techniques these days. |
| 08:30 | <&McMartin> | New grads tend to just sort of drop in on research group meetings to see what people are up to and talk to professors to settle on an advisor |
| 08:32 | < Harlow> | so did you come up with your research entirely or did you actually know what you wanted to do? |
| 08:32 | <&McMartin> | I sort of wandered into it. I knew I was interested in extracting information from program traces early on |
| 08:32 | <&McMartin> | But not until I'd been to a few groups' meetings |
| 08:33 | < Harlow> | ah |
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| 09:13 | <@Azash> | https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BNELF1GCUAExynU.png:large |
| 09:44 | | You're now known as TheWatcher |
| 09:51 | <&McMartin> | A classic. |
| 09:52 | <&McMartin> | Someone found the source of that in here at some point. |
| 09:59 | <&McMartin> | But I can't find it, just Syka linking it last year |
| 10:04 | <@Azash> | Apparently http://boundary.com/solutions/ |
| 10:07 | <&McMartin> | The lines have been removed, apparently due to the endless mockery they engendered~ |
| 10:07 | <&McMartin> | The new image is even called "CloudsWithoutLines.png"~ |
| 10:07 | <@Tamber> | Obviously, the MongoDB is just there for inconvenient things to be conveniently lost. |
| 10:07 | <&McMartin> | Your Ruby Gems can be executed on erlang with Hadoop! |
| 10:12 | <@Azash> | McMartin: http://c3201142.cdn03.imgwykop.pl/comment_CcstRJHi8rcHVodwMW33DWRIjjiMZ7oH.gif |
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| 11:22 | < luke> | Hmmm. If you roll a die 50 times, what is the probability of the sequence 1, 2, 3, 4 occuring? |
| 11:22 | < luke> | ^^ That problem has me stumped (but I was never very good at probability) |
| 11:28 | | * Vornicus thinks at it. |
| 11:31 | < luke> | My first attempt was (1/6)^4 * (50 - 3), but that suggests that the probability is 1 when the length is 1296 |
| 11:32 | <~Vornicus> | I get about 3.5% for 50. |
| 11:32 | <~Vornicus> | I don't really know if there's a way to get this nicely. |
| 11:33 | <~Vornicus> | it's 63.2% for 1296. |
| 11:34 | < luke> | (And 0.53% and 10, and 31.901% at 500) |
| 11:35 | < simon_> | luke, that is the summed probability of rolling (1 2 3 4 x ...), (x 1 2 3 4 ...), (x x 1 2 3 4 x ...), (... 1 2 3 4 ...), etc. |
| 11:38 | <~Vornicus> | I did it with Excel: b2 is 1; b3 =2/3 * sum(b2:e2); c3 =1/6 * sum(b2:e2); d3 = 1/6 * c2; e3 = 1/6 * d2; f3 = 1/6 * e2 + f2 |
| 11:39 | <@ErikMesoy> | luke: you need to throw in some sets of 1-(equation) on that |
| 11:39 | <~Vornicus> | (also a2 is 0, a3 is 1, and the 1 row is "roll", "off", "1", "1 2", "1 2 3", and "1 2 3 4"; |
| 11:39 | <~Vornicus> | Then fill row 3 down as far as you please. |
| 11:41 | <@ErikMesoy> | Chance of getting 1234 on a set of 4 rolls is 1/6^4. Chance of *not* getting it on 4 rolls is 1-(1/6^4). Chance of not getting it on 50 rolls is (1-(1/6^4))^(50-3). Chance of getting it in 50 rolls is thus 1-((1-(1/6^4))^47) by my count. |
| 11:41 | <@ErikMesoy> | And I get 3.5% too |
| 11:43 | <~Vornicus> | Looks like a close match |
| 11:43 | <~Vornicus> | Gives 63.1% at 1,296 |
| 11:44 | < luke> | That expression agrees with the simulation, and I think I understand how you got the answer. |
| 11:48 | <@ErikMesoy> | To see if something will happen at once in N tries, it's usually 1-(raise to Nth power(1-(chance of happening))). Is that easier to understand now that the operands are in nice order instead of some left, some right as happens with subtraction and exponents? |
| 11:49 | <@ErikMesoy> | *at least once |
| 11:51 | <~Vornicus> | also the closed form is a lot nicer than stuffing it through the matrix |
| 11:53 | < luke> | Okay, I think I get it. Not that it really matters, it was just a question that was really bugging me. |
| 11:54 | < luke> | Thankyou. |
| 11:55 | <~Vornicus> | holy cats, its diagonalizable |
| 11:55 | <~Vornicus> | (and then /terrible/, full of complex numbers, but it's diagonalizable!) |
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| 12:33 | <@Azash> | http://www.reddit.com/r/pwned/comments/255qx3/dayz_source_code_stolen/ |
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| 20:41 | <@Bastard> | I got the "love letter to classic platformers" Blood of the Werewolf since it was 90% off on Steam today. The *minimum* specs include a 2.0GHz Dual Core CPU. The recommended system requirements on that: 3.0GHz Quad Core Processor. Is it just me or is this somewhat out of line for a *2D* platformer? |
| 20:47 | <&Derakon> | Considering that that game was probably made with a team of maybe two programmers, be glad it exists at all~ |
| 20:51 | <@Bastard> | Two programmers and a lot of autohelp, autoinclude, autolink library? ;) |
| 20:52 | <&Derakon> | Two programmers and a lot of game development tools that didn't exist even five years ago. |
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| 23:09 | <&McMartin> | Bastard: It's very common for 2D to mean "2D *controls*" |
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| 23:10 | <&McMartin> | In a fully-rendered 3D world (see also: the new Giana Sisters, literally everything that mentions "Unity") |
| 23:10 | <&McMartin> | There is also an assumption that you should still be able to get 60 FPS while you're running Firefox with 90 tabs open in the background, and sysreqs are set accordingly~ |
| 23:10 | <&McMartin> | In the Actually Obviously 3D realm there is some real wackiness in requirements, though. |
| 23:11 | <&McMartin> | Something about Runner 2 completely shreds my Intel HD4000 while much, much older nVidia chips handled it just fine. |
| 23:11 | <&ToxicFrog> | McMartin: point of information: KSP uses Unity. |
| 23:11 | <&McMartin> | KSP is also Extremely Three Dimensional. |
| 23:11 | <&ToxicFrog> | Yes. |
| 23:11 | <&ToxicFrog> | I thought you meant "everything that mentions unity is a 3d renderer coupled to 2d controls" |
| 23:11 | <&McMartin> | Unity's requirements are light by modern standards; something using Unity will run on pretty much everything that isn't a tablet and some things that are. |
| 23:12 | <&McMartin> | Ah, no. I mean "Unity is intrinsically 3D, so until the absolute latest version of it anything that uses Unity to make a 2D game (Rochard, Card City Nights) is playing games with fixed camera and forced perspective to do so" |
| 23:12 | <&ToxicFrog> | (there is also apparently now a "unity2d" that gives you the same dev tools and similar API but for making pure 2d games. I don't know if anything uses it yet.) |
| 23:12 | <&McMartin> | Unity 4 or 5 added an Actual 2D thing. |
| 23:12 | <&McMartin> | Yeah. |
| 23:13 | <@ErikMesoy> | McMartin: While the game does zoom in and out, it doesn't to change camera angle or rotate objects. |
| 23:13 | | * McMartin nods |
| 23:13 | <@ErikMesoy> | *doesn't seem to |
| 23:13 | <@ErikMesoy> | I'll buy that it might be secretly 3D, but that seems a terrible waste of 3D. |
| 23:13 | <&McMartin> | It turns out that with a modern computer it's cheaper to have the GPU do zooming. |
| 23:13 | <&McMartin> | Rotation, too. |
| 23:13 | <&McMartin> | Mode 7 costs a shitload of CPU. |
| 23:13 | <&McMartin> | And also looks worse. |
| 23:14 | <&McMartin> | UQM uses software rotozoom (since it's also designed to run in the complete absence of a modern GPU) and it pays a price for it. |
| 23:15 | <&McMartin> | With anything that can at least do, oh, OpenGL 1.1, it's a matter of your DrawSprite() function also having "at this scaling factor" and "with this rotation angle" bunged on as additional arguments. |
| 23:15 | <&McMartin> | That's... really not a small thing. |
| 23:16 | <&McMartin> | (Not quite the same thing, but kind of funny anyway; the sysreqs for UQM jump if you use the original 90s soundtrack over the .ogg-based pure digital audio) |
| 23:16 | <&McMartin> | (This is mainly due to evolving standards for acceptable audio quality, though, so there's a crapton of extra postprocessing MODs take now that they didn't in 1992 when you were trying to jam them through your 386's PC speaker) |
| 23:16 | <@AnnoDomini> | Do these two sound the same? |
| 23:17 | <&McMartin> | No, the .ogg stuff is either the 3DO-specific soundtrack or the modern remixes. |
| 23:17 | <&McMartin> | The MODs are the PC version soundtrack. |
| 23:17 | <&McMartin> | And over 90% smaller |
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| 23:19 | <&McMartin> | AnnoDomini: Original: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EytTOXYsa-c Remix: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J3hRUYt6Bsg |
| 23:19 | <&McMartin> | The remixed soundtrack tends to sound more like dance remixes, because it's by the original authors mostly and they were not hugely interested in just rehashing what they did 20 years ago with fancier synthesizers. |
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| 23:24 | <&McMartin> | Oh right, the "higher standards" thing comes up, too. |
| 23:24 | <&McMartin> | You're not a Real 2D game engine unless you are all points addressable, at 1080p, at 60 FPS. |
| 23:25 | <&McMartin> | That's actually a *shitload* of work in both transmission rate and CPU. |
| 23:25 | <&McMartin> | We didn't have full-color all-points-addressable ate 320x240 on consoles until, basically, the Dreamcast. |
| 23:26 | <&McMartin> | Everything before that had to tile if it wanted to fill the screen, or (PS1-era) do polygonal backgrounds because they're cheaper. |
| 23:28 | <&McMartin> | ("all-points-addressable" is where you can change the individual color of every pixel on the screen. For 1080p double-buffered and standard 24-bit color, you're looking at 12MB of RAM just for screen memory and probably more like 16 so that everything can be neatly word-aligned) |
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| --- Log closed Sun May 11 00:00:02 2014 |