| --- Log opened Thu May 08 00:00:14 2014 |
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| 00:29 | <@celticminstrel> | Actually I think the former was meant. |
| 00:29 | <@celticminstrel> | But the latter actually makes it valid. |
| 00:30 | <@celticminstrel> | Or something. I forget. |
| 00:30 | <@celticminstrel> | >_> |
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| 01:56 | <&McMartin> | New I7 out. Major revision to the language, lots of changes to how adaptive text and library messages work. |
| 01:56 | <&McMartin> | Gonna have to modify or rewrite almost all my extensions. |
| 01:56 | <&McMartin> | Fortunately, I'm a much better hacker now than I was in 2007. |
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| 01:59 | <@celticminstrel> | Inform7? |
| 02:00 | <&McMartin> | Yeah. |
| 02:00 | <@celticminstrel> | Fun. |
| 02:00 | <&McMartin> | Even I6 had things like [the] as an interpolator that would be empty if it were a proper noun |
| 02:00 | <&McMartin> | This is now sufficiently generalized that you can run a game in French in any combination of person and tense. |
| 02:01 | <@celticminstrel> | Translating an I7 game seems like it could be really hard. |
| 02:01 | <&McMartin> | Yeeeeees. It's been a source of some work since, well, I5. |
| 02:02 | <&McMartin> | Games are nonetheless written in other languages, though. |
| 02:02 | <&McMartin> | Italian, German, Spanish, and French, in that order, being the most important, AIUI. |
| 02:02 | <@celticminstrel> | Well, writing it in another language is one thing; writing it in another and then translating it is another. |
| 02:02 | <&McMartin> | Ah. |
| 02:02 | <@celticminstrel> | ^in one |
| 02:02 | <&McMartin> | Yeah, there's that, too. |
| 02:02 | <@Reiv> | Italian is a curious choice; just a local fandom thing? |
| 02:03 | <&McMartin> | Though I know a number of games have been translated to German as IFComp prizes. |
| 02:03 | <&McMartin> | More "local community"; their ways are noticably not ours, but they have some very good authors. |
| 02:03 | <@celticminstrel> | I have some really old things I vaguely thought of porting to I7, not sure if I'll ever get around to it though... |
| 02:03 | <&McMartin> | (Their works tend to be more, hm. Contemplative, and less gamelike.) |
| 02:04 | <&McMartin> | Though when they *do* write games in English, the ones that are good are very good indeed. There are several authors that have won awards for them from the Anglophone community and a couple games I've considered Best Of Show in the comp, in the past. |
| 02:04 | <&McMartin> | When I rewrite my conversation libraries, being able to mimic one of them in particular is going to be a design goal. |
| 02:05 | <@Reiv> | contemplative IF? What an interesting idea. |
| 02:05 | <&McMartin> | It's got precedent in other games |
| 02:05 | <&McMartin> | I mean, really, Myst counts, but Kentucky Route Zero also counts. |
| 02:06 | <&McMartin> | More generally, most non-English IF grew out of literary hypertext, not out of adventure games. |
| 02:07 | <&McMartin> | A lot of the I7 changes that are backwards-compatibility-breaking reflect this too, really, as English IF moves that way. |
| 02:08 | <&McMartin> | The source refers to itself as 'the story' now instead of as 'the game', death/victory is redefined to what those have *really* meant for the past fifteen years, scoring is now off by default. |
| 02:09 | <&McMartin> | Oh man |
| 02:09 | <&McMartin> | And I *still* haven't played Short's latest game. |
| 02:09 | <&McMartin> | The epic espionage game where weapons are used to insert and remove letters from things, thus transforming them. |
| 02:09 | <&McMartin> | Said game is, as one would expect, called "Counterfeit Monkey" |
| 02:10 | <&McMartin> | "Which we mention here because it began life in 2008 as what was going to be a sample program" |
| 02:14 | <&Derakon> | I played some of Counterfeit Monkey. I have no idea how far I made it before losing interest. |
| 02:14 | <&Derakon> | It's a neat concept but I found the setting and narrator somewhat uninteresting. |
| 02:15 | <&McMartin> | Historically I've always really gotten into wordplay-mechanic games. |
| 02:16 | <&Derakon> | I did enjoy the one where you had an adjective gun, but that one was quite short. |
| 02:17 | <&McMartin> | Yeah, I had fun with Threediopolis despite it being an unusually sterile puzzlebox and I also greatly enjoyed the anagram game that it kind of escaped from. |
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| 05:01 | <@Reiv> | death/victory is redefined? |
| 05:01 | | Derakon is now known as Derakon[AFK] |
| 05:08 | <&McMartin> | "death" really means "game is over, you should UNDO or RESTORE" and "victory" really means "game is over, you should QUIT or read the endnotes" |
| 05:08 | <&McMartin> | So those are now "end the story" and "end the story finally" instead of "end the game in death" and "end the game in victory". |
| 05:09 | <&McMartin> | Also, it's possible to have custom victory messages that are not *** You have won ***, which required *horrendous* hackery in I6, especially if there were multiple independent win messages. |
| 05:09 | <~Vornicus> | *** Christmas has won*** |
| 05:54 | <@Reiv> | ... that's an interesting limitation |
| 05:55 | <&McMartin> | So that's been fixed too. |
| 05:55 | <&McMartin> | Basically, lots of tightening stuff up and polish and hiding the ugliest machinery under the hood more |
| 05:55 | <&McMartin> | Which also means I7 is always using dynamic-memory techniques, while before they were not difficult to avoid |
| 05:55 | <&McMartin> | This in turn means that .z5 support is basically a lost cause now. |
| 05:57 | <&McMartin> | http://inform7.com/news/2014/05/07/new-2014-build-of-inform-now-out/ is the informal discussion |
| 05:57 | <&McMartin> | The formal changelog is ri:gonk:ulously huge, as one might expect for a release 3 years in the making |
| 06:01 | <@Reiv> | I thought .z5 support was intended to be inherent? |
| 06:02 | <&McMartin> | I can't parse that sentence. |
| 06:02 | <&McMartin> | (Most Inform works are .z8) |
| 06:11 | <@Reiv> | Oh right, the .zs have lots of extentions |
| 06:12 | <@Reiv> | This is then ".z5 is now too old to support"? |
| 06:12 | <&McMartin> | More "too small", I think. |
| 06:12 | <&McMartin> | .z5 was restricted to 64KB RAM and 256KB ROM. |
| 06:12 | <&McMartin> | .z8 is still 64KB RAM but lets you get tup to 512KB ROM. |
| 06:13 | <&McMartin> | That's... still not a Hell of a lot so if you're very ambitious at all you mostly use Glulx now, expecially since Glulx has been evolving new backends that can do things like talk to the CSS and DOM in the Web Browser that is running them. |
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| 06:26 | <~Vornicus> | holy jeez that's a big changelog |
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| 06:56 | <@Azash> | http://www.kernelthread.com/publications/gbaunix/ |
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| 07:55 | | * Vornicus tries to remember some of his CSS |
| 07:59 | <~Vornicus> | ah, there it is. |
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| 08:52 | | * Vornicus now tries to figure out how to get table columns to actually propagate stuff like text align |
| 08:55 | <@Azash> | Vornicus: I have a solution for that |
| 08:55 | <@Azash> | It's made by Brewdog and starts with "Punk" |
| 10:39 | <@Azash> | http://i.imgur.com/7Fut7SR.png |
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| 12:03 | | * AnnoDomini reads the LISP book. |
| 12:03 | <@AnnoDomini> | The first chapter seems to be a tutorial on how to use all the different list operation tools. |
| 12:06 | <@TheWatcher> | Appropriate for the LISt Processing language |
| 12:27 | | * Tarinaky complains about shitty HR websites that force you to fill in a bajillion pages of personal details and equal opportunities information /before/ making you sit a 20 question exam and then telling you you failed. |
| 12:27 | <@Tarinaky> | *personality exam |
| 12:28 | <@Tarinaky> | Well thanks internet. Maybe you could have told me that before you asked me for my name address and phone number. |
| 12:28 | | * Tarinaky grumbles. |
| 12:43 | < [R]> | Pretty sure it's to prevent people from repeatedly trying the exam |
| 12:45 | <@Tarinaky> | I'm unconvinced the exam established anything except whether you know the answers. |
| 12:45 | <@Tarinaky> | Since it's multiple choice subjective |
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| 12:59 | <@AnnoDomini> | Unary division. Nice.p |
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| 13:59 | <@Tarinaky> | [R]: I have some exams for a bit but how srs were you about wanting to make a game with me? |
| 14:03 | | macdjord|slep is now known as macdjord|wurk |
| 14:13 | <&jeroud> | Tarinaky: pyweek starts this Sunday. You should take part. |
| 14:13 | <@Tarinaky> | I shouldn't. Exams. |
| 14:13 | <&jeroud> | Oh. :-( |
| 14:13 | <@Tarinaky> | Spectral Theory on Wednesday, Dissertation Demonstration on Thursday. Quantum Information Theory on Friday, Graphs and Networks on Monday |
| 14:14 | <@Tarinaky> | Needless to say I am stressed as FUCK |
| 14:14 | <@TheWatcher> | "Spectral Theory" always strikes me as something that should be part ofa a paranormal investigation degree. |
| 14:15 | <@Tarinaky> | It's Analysis, |
| 14:15 | <@Tarinaky> | I forget the full title. |
| 14:15 | <@Tarinaky> | Which bodes poorly for my performance |
| 14:16 | <@Azash> | jeroud: pyweek? |
| 14:16 | <@Tarinaky> | Spectral theory for bounded operators on self-adjoint Hilbert Spaces or something like that. |
| 14:17 | < luke> | Study tip 1: Understand the title |
| 14:17 | <@Tarinaky> | Or was it self adjoint operators on bounded hilbert spaces? |
| 14:17 | <@Tarinaky> | luke: No shit. |
| 14:18 | <@AnnoDomini> | Oh, hey, luke, what's the German for "Holy Roman Empire of the Polish People"? |
| 14:18 | <@Azash> | (sch|ss)+ |
| 14:19 | < luke> | AnnoDomini: Der Empir Romanus und Polisches. |
| 14:19 | < luke> | I don't speak German. |
| 14:19 | <@AnnoDomini> | Oh. You must be a different luke. |
| 14:20 | < luke> | Almost certainly. |
| 14:20 | <@Azash> | Meanwhile in cryptic bugs: Rails insists the current locale is a symbol, en (rather than the symbol :en, which is the notation for a symbol) |
| 14:53 | <&jeroud> | Azash: pyweek.org |
| 14:59 | | You're now known as TheWatcher[afk] |
| 15:17 | | ErikMesoy|sleep is now known as ErikMesoy |
| 15:18 | < [R]> | Tarinaky: I'm willing assuming it's not pure python. |
| 15:19 | | mode/#code [+o ErikMesoy] by ChanServ |
| 16:04 | <@Tarinaky> | [R]: Lrn python? :) |
| 16:05 | <@Tarinaky> | If you know C/C++ you're already on about the same level as me in terms of the quality of your python :P |
| 16:13 | <@ErikMesoy> | Write pseudocode and indent! ;) |
| 16:13 | <@Tarinaky> | Basically, yes. |
| 16:14 | <@Tarinaky> | You'd be surprised how easy it is to blag most HLL with that strategy. |
| 16:14 | <@Tarinaky> | I got through like... 1/2 of a Javascript 'challenge' using a combination of that and google-searching elementary string operations. |
| 16:14 | <@ErikMesoy> | Until you start having to interface with other things. |
| 16:15 | <@celticminstrel> | Does it work for Lua? |
| 16:15 | <@Tarinaky> | At the half-way point I realised it was getting suspiciously like learning and couldn't be bothered. |
| 16:15 | <@celticminstrel> | ... |
| 16:15 | <@ErikMesoy> | Like when I started writing a GUI in Python, interfacing with the wx toolkit, and WHAT IS THIS? |
| 16:15 | <@Tarinaky> | ErikMesoy: That's because the wx toolkit is terribad. |
| 16:16 | <@ErikMesoy> | Tarinaky: It seemed to be the best of about three I tried |
| 16:16 | <@ErikMesoy> | Maybe the graphics toolkits for Python are all terribad |
| 16:16 | <@Tarinaky> | I found PySide to be better. |
| 16:16 | <@ErikMesoy> | I remember trying PyGame and found that it was railroading me a lot. |
| 16:16 | <@Tarinaky> | Mostly because you can import Qt RAD thingies. |
| 16:17 | <@ErikMesoy> | "Here's how to write Snake. Here's how to write Arkanoid. Here's how to write Tetris. You don't want to write Tetris? Screw you." |
| 16:17 | <@Tarinaky> | Most game programming tutorials are like that. |
| 16:18 | <@ErikMesoy> | But I didn't want a game programming tutorial, I wanted a GUI handler. PyGame offered one, but I couldn't wrest the graphics free from the gram programming. |
| 16:18 | <@ErikMesoy> | *game programming |
| 16:19 | <@Tarinaky> | You don't want to use PyGame for GUI. |
| 16:19 | <@Tarinaky> | It didn't have a GUI handler when I last spied on it. |
| 16:19 | <@Tarinaky> | I mean, outside of "Lol DYI" |
| 16:23 | <@ErikMesoy> | I also tried tcl. Meh. |
| 16:24 | | * ErikMesoy looks on his old wxPython code. "self.buttonsArray.append(wx.Button(self, -1, char, name=str(i)))" |
| 16:24 | <@ErikMesoy> | man, parts of this crap look like it could have been Java :V |
| 16:39 | <@celticminstrel> | Eh, I'm doing GUI myself. It's not that hard to handle a basic GUI. |
| 16:39 | <@Tarinaky> | The trouble I always have is I don't want a basic GUI |
| 16:39 | <@celticminstrel> | If you don't care about things like native appearances. |
| 16:39 | <@Tarinaky> | The games I like are pretty much all GUI and nothing else :/ |
| 16:40 | <@celticminstrel> | It's not hard to get things like normal button behaviour (where it activates on mouseup, but only if the mouse is still over the button) or proper text editing behaviour. |
| 16:40 | <@Tarinaky> | Text editing is tricky and non-trivial in my experience. |
| 16:40 | <@Tarinaky> | It tends to require a significant amount of effort and never works right :/ |
| 16:41 | <@celticminstrel> | Well, it's easy if you assume keyboard input only and don't allow selection ranges. |
| 16:41 | <@celticminstrel> | Selection ranges aren't hard if it's single-line. |
| 16:41 | <@celticminstrel> | It gets nontrivial once you want multiline text or mouse selection. |
| 16:41 | <@celticminstrel> | Which is what I need to implement next in BoE. |
| 16:41 | <@celticminstrel> | <_< |
| 16:42 | <@Tarinaky> | Which is why it's best to let some other schmuck do the heavy lifting >.> |
| 16:42 | <@celticminstrel> | ...once I get all the dialogs converted. |
| 16:42 | <@celticminstrel> | Which would have been done by now if I'd actually been working on it. >_> |
| 16:43 | <@celticminstrel> | I only have 20 or so to get through, but they're some of the most complicate ones, for editing things like monsters and items and stuff. |
| 16:51 | <@RchrdB> | ...is it possible to embed webkit in OpenGL games to do their GUIs? |
| 16:51 | <@RchrdB> | Write the GUI in HTML, get Webkit to render it to an OpenGL surface with a transparent background, draw it in. |
| 16:52 | <@RchrdB> | https://code.google.com/p/chromiumembedded/ hmm |
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| 18:42 | < [R]> | Tarinaky: I know Python, do not like the inconsistent API. Its like OOP was an afterthoight. |
| 18:48 | <@Tarinaky> | It /was/ :P |
| 18:48 | < [R]> | If half your array operations are members and the other half are external functions, you fucked up. Double whammy comes from the docs not mentioning those external functions. |
| 18:49 | < [R]> | 3 did npthing to fix that afaict. |
| 18:49 | <@Tarinaky> | Frankly I prefer 2.7 |
| 18:49 | <@Tarinaky> | And the inconsistency is no worse than Java. |
| 18:52 | < [R]> | PHPs more consitient. |
| 18:52 | <@Tamber> | *wince* |
| 18:53 | <@Tarinaky> | Also: I am pretty sure you can call the external functions as member functions because member functions are just sugar. |
| 18:53 | <@Tarinaky> | I /think/ [].len() == len([]) |
| 18:55 | < [R]> | Havent seen them in help([]) |
| 18:55 | <@Tarinaky> | That's because they're keywords. |
| 18:55 | <@Tarinaky> | And help() is generated automatically. |
| 18:55 | <@Tarinaky> | Rather than actually being pre-baked. |
| 18:56 | < [R]> | ... thats no excuse. |
| 18:56 | <@Tarinaky> | There's a __len__ method somewhere... but methods beginning with '_' are hidden. |
| 18:56 | < [R]> | Either provide good+ help or none at all. |
| 18:56 | <@Tarinaky> | I think you're being excessively particular. |
| 18:57 | <@Tarinaky> | The keyword functions don't belong to the object, because they're defined by the python language itself. |
| 18:57 | <@Tarinaky> | len returns length, regardless of what you call it on. |
| 18:57 | <@Tarinaky> | In the same way that a + b is addition, whatever you call it on. |
| 18:57 | <@Tarinaky> | Unless your API is braindead. |
| 18:58 | < [R]> | Ive dealt with too many shitty doc'd APIs. Why would I willingly return to using one if I know the docs are still shit? |
| 18:58 | <@celticminstrel> | [].len() is not valid. |
| 18:58 | < [R]> | Why do you have undoc'd keywords? |
| 18:58 | <@Tarinaky> | They aren't undoc'd |
| 18:58 | <@Tarinaky> | They're in the docs |
| 18:59 | <@Tarinaky> | You're just looking at the wrong page. |
| 18:59 | <@celticminstrel> | Which keywords are you talking about? |
| 18:59 | < [R]> | Then the docs are shit. |
| 18:59 | <@Tarinaky> | celticminstrel: The built-in functions |
| 18:59 | < [R]> | If they dont come up for the array page they may as well not exist. |
| 18:59 | <@celticminstrel> | Those aren't keywords. |
| 18:59 | <@Tarinaky> | celticminstrel: Yes, I couldn't think what they were called because my head is messed up atm |
| 18:59 | <@celticminstrel> | help(len) workds as expected, too. |
| 18:59 | <@celticminstrel> | ^works |
| 19:00 | <@Tarinaky> | https://docs.python.org/2/library/functions.html |
| 19:00 | <@Tarinaky> | Putting them in the help for lists would imply they belong to the list's scope, when they don;t. |
| 19:00 | < [R]> | Sure does. Why would I invole that though when help array shouldve told me? |
| 19:00 | <@celticminstrel> | help([]) does have a line that lets you know len([]) gives the length. |
| 19:00 | <@celticminstrel> | | __len__(...) |
| 19:00 | <@celticminstrel> | | x.__len__() <==> len(x) |
| 19:00 | <@Tarinaky> | Because help(array) assumes you already know the language~ |
| 19:01 | < [R]> | Similar isdue with map |
| 19:01 | <@Tarinaky> | Ah. There we go then. |
| 19:01 | <@Tarinaky> | celticminstrel +1 |
| 19:01 | <@celticminstrel> | It doesn't give the documentation for it, but it's enough to let you know you could try help(len) for further info. |
| 19:10 | <@Tarinaky> | Life's too short for arguments about programming languages :/ |
| 19:14 | <@Azash> | I disagree |
| 19:14 | <@Azash> | Besides, you use python, so what would you know? |
| 19:14 | | * Azash ducks beneath desk |
| 19:17 | <@Tarinaky> | http://gameofmusic.injagames.com/ |
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| 22:39 | < pikachu> | holy shit, check out http://blackhat.enterprises/index.html |
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| 22:57 | < pikachu> | holy shit, check out http://blackhat.enterprises/index.html |
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| 22:57 | < subzero> | holy shit, check out http://blackhat.enterprises/index.html |
| 22:57 | < pikachu> | holy shit, check out http://blackhat.enterprises/index.html |
| 22:58 | <@Tamber> | =.= |
| 22:58 | | mode/#code [+b *!*pop@*.ca.comcast.net] by Tamber |
| 22:58 | | subzero was kicked from #code by Tamber [] |
| 22:58 | | mode/#code [+b *!*x@*.ca.comcast.net] by Tamber |
| 22:58 | | pikachu was kicked from #code by Tamber [] |
| 22:58 | <@Tamber> | And now we see what idents they take next time~ |
| 23:01 | | himi [fow035@Nightstar-v37cpe.internode.on.net] has joined #code |
| 23:01 | | mode/#code [+o himi] by ChanServ |
| 23:06 | | You're now known as TheWatcher |
| 23:09 | <@froztbyte> | on shadowfire we just z-lined the vhost |
| 23:09 | <@froztbyte> | as in the http one |
| 23:28 | | himi [fow035@Nightstar-v37cpe.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 121 seconds] |
| 23:41 | | himi [fow035@Nightstar-v37cpe.internode.on.net] has joined #code |
| 23:41 | | mode/#code [+o himi] by ChanServ |
| 23:53 | | thalass [thalass@Nightstar-1i3669.bigpond.net.au] has joined #code |
| 23:53 | | mode/#code [+o thalass] by ChanServ |
| 23:58 | | himi [fow035@Nightstar-v37cpe.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 121 seconds] |
| --- Log closed Fri May 09 00:00:30 2014 |