| --- Log opened Tue May 06 00:00:41 2014 |
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| 00:49 | <@AnnoDomini> | Shiz: Explain. |
| 00:49 | < Shiz> | I don't have know the working on why it segfaults, if that is what you're asking |
| 00:50 | <@AnnoDomini> | What's the string of escape codes? |
| 00:50 | < Shiz> | ==\n==\n-\n |
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| 01:08 | <@Tarinaky> | There's nothing like absolute hatred of all of the work I /need/ to get done for deadlines that're measured in a week or less to make me want to make a game. |
| 01:08 | <@Tarinaky> | Mmmm. |
| 01:08 | | * Tarinaky grumbles. |
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| 01:29 | < [R]> | Tarinaky: what kind of game? |
| 01:33 | <@Tarinaky> | [R]: Quasi-turn based fleet tactics game IN SPAAAAACE |
| 01:33 | < [R]> | Quasi-turn-based? |
| 01:34 | <@Tarinaky> | Not sure which of: 1) You have 'turns' where you issue orders, and then time plays out until the next turn; 2) real-time, but slow, like DEFCON |
| 01:35 | <@Tarinaky> | 1) would be like Leviathan Warships or Frozen Synapse or Flotilla. |
| 01:37 | < [R]> | Language preference? |
| 01:38 | <@Tarinaky> | Python, probably. |
| 01:39 | < [R]> | If you had another choice? |
| 01:39 | | * [R] might help, but isn't into python. |
| 01:39 | <@AnnoDomini> | MALBOLGE. |
| 01:40 | <@Tarinaky> | C++ and python are the two languages I feel comfortable in. |
| 01:40 | <@Tarinaky> | But C++ is a bastard to do anything in. |
| 01:40 | < [R]> | Indeed, might not be too too bad. |
| 01:40 | < [R]> | I can do code, wee! |
| 01:41 | < [R]> | ... |
| 01:41 | <@Tarinaky> | PySide+OpenGL+Python work pretty well though. |
| 01:42 | < [R]> | OpenGL means like 90% of my workstations can't be used for testing it :/ |
| 01:42 | <@Tarinaky> | I'm not really much of an expert in Python though. |
| 01:42 | <@Tarinaky> | [R]: My laptop only supports OpenGL1.2 |
| 01:42 | < [R]> | I'd be up for C++ |
| 01:42 | <@Tarinaky> | And umm... I can think of no way of doing a 3D game that doesn't use OpenGL. |
| 01:42 | <@Tarinaky> | *can't |
| 01:43 | <&McMartin> | There's "using Direct3D" but please don't~ |
| 01:43 | <&McMartin> | "Only supports 1.2" is a little bit slippery if there are extensions added. |
| 01:43 | < [R]> | You want it to actually be 3D-3D or SC2/WC3-3D? |
| 01:43 | < [R]> | Cause I'll suck it up for the former |
| 01:44 | <@Tarinaky> | What do you mean by 3D-3D? |
| 01:44 | < [R]> | I mean the game itself is 3D |
| 01:44 | < [R]> | Not just a 3D engine rendering a 2D game. |
| 01:44 | <@Tarinaky> | I'm thinking Billboards and vectors in 3D space. |
| 01:44 | < [R]> | Unfamilliar |
| 01:45 | <@Tarinaky> | 3D; but the graphics are still sprites. |
| 01:45 | <@Tarinaky> | It's just those sprites have a meaningful x,y,z coordinate. |
| 01:45 | <&McMartin> | So, using perspective to get your scaling the way you want it? |
| 01:46 | <@Tarinaky> | No. |
| 01:46 | <@Tarinaky> | Umm... Remember Homeworld? When you pressed space it'd bring up the Sensors screen. |
| 01:46 | <@Tarinaky> | Which'd render your fleets as symbols |
| 01:46 | <@Tarinaky> | But it was a 3D map you could rotate. |
| 01:46 | <&McMartin> | Ah. |
| 01:46 | <&McMartin> | That doesn't require OpenGL, you can just do the divisions in software if it comes to that. |
| 01:47 | < Shiz> | Tarinaky: pysdl2 is rela neat |
| 01:47 | <@Tarinaky> | My understanding is that'd be a dumb way of doing it. |
| 01:47 | < Shiz> | just saying |
| 01:47 | < Shiz> | together with PyOPENGL |
| 01:47 | | * McMartin gestures at Star Control (1991). |
| 01:47 | < Shiz> | PyOpenGL* |
| 01:47 | <&McMartin> | And Shiz is right. |
| 01:47 | <@Tarinaky> | Becayse OpenGL 1.2 would do all that stuff 'for free' and be ubiquitous. |
| 01:47 | <&McMartin> | PyOpenGL (is pyglet still a thing?) + pysdl2 is what you want to do. |
| 01:47 | < Shiz> | pyglet hasn't been updated in about 3 years i believe |
| 01:47 | < Shiz> | sadly |
| 01:47 | < Shiz> | it seemed interesting |
| 01:47 | < Shiz> | oh i'm wrong |
| 01:48 | < Shiz> | 2012 last update |
| 01:48 | < Shiz> | two years |
| 01:48 | <@Tarinaky> | PySide has more stuff for quickly producing passable GUIs though. |
| 01:48 | <@Tarinaky> | Which is... 9/10th of the stuff that frustrates me. |
| 01:48 | < Shiz> | it's ehrm |
| 01:48 | < Shiz> | is it still nontrivial to mix Qt and OpenGL stuff |
| 01:48 | < Shiz> | I do remember it being quite troublesome |
| 01:49 | <@Tarinaky> | I had a play with it back in October-ish-time and found it really straight forward. |
| 01:49 | <@Tarinaky> | Anyway. I need a quick power-nap. |
| 01:50 | <&McMartin> | Shiz: It looks like Qt5 has a variety of interop classes |
| 01:50 | <&McMartin> | With QGLWidget and QOpenGLShaderProgram etc. |
| 01:50 | < Shiz> | I see |
| 01:50 | <&McMartin> | Of course if you're targeting 1.2 you don't get shaders. |
| 01:50 | < Shiz> | it seems quite ugly |
| 01:50 | <&McMartin> | I have no idea how well they work or if they do. |
| 01:50 | <&McMartin> | OpenGL is never clean. |
| 01:50 | < Shiz> | sure but |
| 01:50 | < Shiz> | at least you normally have to use only one API |
| 01:50 | <@Tarinaky> | I don't really have anything I'd want to do with shaders. |
| 01:50 | < Shiz> | (with several dozen different extensinos) |
| 01:51 | <&McMartin> | Minimum 2, I think |
| 01:51 | <@Tarinaky> | It just seems more straight forward to do the projection/matrix math in OpenGL than to do it in software. |
| 01:51 | <@Tarinaky> | Because I live in a glorious scifi age. |
| 01:51 | <&McMartin> | You've got the OpenGL OpenGL part and then you've got GLX/AGL/WGL/IGL/etc |
| 01:51 | < Shiz> | if you're doing OpenGL and NOT doing programmable pipeline then ehrm |
| 01:51 | < Shiz> | well I wouldn't recommend it |
| 01:51 | < Shiz> | yeah, the GL bootstrappers as I liek to call them |
| 01:51 | < Shiz> | sdl2/glut abstracts that away though, luckily |
| 01:52 | <&McMartin> | Yeah, and I suspect QGLWidget is the core way of doing that in Qt. |
| 01:52 | < Shiz> | oh, sure |
| 01:52 | < Shiz> | I just wonder what QOpenGLShaderProgram is |
| 01:52 | < Shiz> | since that's just an opengl api thing |
| 01:52 | <&McMartin> | A half-hearted C++ API wrapper around the C-doesn't-have-overloads-argh API, it looks like: http://qt-project.org/doc/qt-5/qopenglshaderprogram.html |
| 01:53 | <@Tarinaky> | Anyway. I have assignments and exams to get done. |
| 01:54 | <@Tarinaky> | So this will come to nothing. |
| 01:55 | <@Tarinaky> | As much as the world desperately needs more of the games I like to play :P |
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| 02:17 | <&ToxicFrog> | I keep trying to write bash as lisp. |
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| 02:29 | <&ToxicFrog> | Ok, this is pretty excellent. |
| 02:30 | <&ToxicFrog> | "lein test" will now test my program by bringing up a server and two clients, connecting the clients to the server, having them login and signal readiness, and then verifying that the server shuts down with the expected value. |
| 02:33 | <&McMartin> | Nice. This is spellcast-net? |
| 02:33 | <&ToxicFrog> | Yes. |
| 02:37 | <&ToxicFrog> | My ultimate goal here is for 'lein test' to actually fully replay a game and verify that the server responds as expected and that the expected player wins, along with running unit tests and whatnot. |
| 02:38 | <&ToxicFrog> | But for now I have successfully automated away a lot of manual taffing about with telnet. |
| 02:38 | <&McMartin> | It's a start! |
| 02:40 | <&ToxicFrog> | Also, I am really liking Timbre as a logging library. |
| 02:41 | <&ToxicFrog> | No setup; call log/{debug,info,warn,error,fatal} and it does the right thing, set default log level with (log/set-level!), environment variable TIMBRE_LOG_LEVEL overrides that. |
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| 03:21 | <@Alek> | sorry. |
| 03:22 | <&McMartin> | Not bad. |
| 03:22 | <&McMartin> | Can you also set a log target? |
| 03:35 | <&ToxicFrog> | Log target? |
| 03:36 | <~Vornicus> | Where the logs get sent |
| 03:38 | <&ToxicFrog> | Oh. Yes. |
| 03:39 | <&ToxicFrog> | By default it supports writing to stdout/stderr and files, and there's examples for writing to Redis or email; adding other targets is trivial. |
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| 13:54 | <@Azash> | "One way of describing a computer is as an electric box which hums. This, while technically correct, can lead to significant amounts of confusion, particularly amongst those who then try to program a fridge." |
| 13:55 | <@Azash> | "A better way to describe it as: a device which processes information according to instructions it had been given. This general definition rules out fridges but is not exhaustive." |
| 13:57 | < luke> | Is there a question attached to that, or is it just for our general perusal? |
| 13:57 | <@Azash> | It's from this C# book I'm reading |
| 13:58 | <@Azash> | The bad jokes can make points which are quite enlightening to a novice programmer though |
| 13:58 | <@Azash> | Like this: "A program is unaware of the data it is processing in the same way that a sausage machine is unaware of what meat is. Put a bicycle into a sausage machine and it will try to make sausages out of it." |
| 14:00 | < luke> | A better program will check to make sure it is being passed meat, not bicycles, since good design should not have untyped data flinging around. |
| 14:00 | <@TheWatcher> | And it should never, ever trust user input. |
| 14:01 | < luke> | Exactly. |
| 14:02 | <@Azash> | And the point being made here is that the programmer is responsible for that |
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| 15:28 | <@Namegduf> | It can't really check it is being passed sausage. Just that the things it is being passed resemble the consistency of meat. |
| 15:28 | <@Namegduf> | So don't trust your checking, either. |
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| 15:30 | < luke> | The best you can hope for is that the thing stuffing it in tells you it's pork mince. |
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| 15:40 | <@RchrdB> | TO KILL YOUR ENEMIES: staple an RFID tag to them, programmed to announce the string "undifferentiated pork", then put them in the sausage grinder. |
| 15:42 | < luke> | Excellent idea! |
| 16:00 | <@Tarinaky> | You can perform simple checks like ensuring the input is approximately the same size as mince-meat and not the size of a bicycle. |
| 16:01 | <@Tarinaky> | A particularly sophisiticated method might even check for the existence of wheels. |
| 16:02 | <@Tarinaky> | But neither of those things will stop a barbie/toy sledge finding its way in. |
| 16:04 | <@ErikMesoy> | And you don't want to get too sophisticated; sometimes you really do want to use the sausage grinder on vegetables or the like |
| 16:07 | <@Tarinaky> | Ideally without the end-user coming up with the bridge idea to scan the vegetables in as .jpg, include them in a word document and attach the word document to an email which they then print out and put /that/ through the grinder... |
| 16:07 | <@Tarinaky> | *bright idea |
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| --- Log closed Wed May 07 00:00:58 2014 |