| --- Log opened Thu May 01 00:00:22 2014 |
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| 01:29 | < McMartin> | http://stilldrinking.org/programming-sucks is making the rounds. |
| 01:29 | < McMartin> | It is doing so for a reason. |
| 01:30 | | macdjord|wurk is now known as macdjord |
| 01:37 | <@celticminstrel> | Mm? |
| 01:38 | < McMartin> | It is a fun article |
| 01:38 | <@celticminstrel> | I've seen it already. |
| 01:38 | < McMartin> | PROOF |
| 01:38 | < [R]> | Yeah... it's hit slashnet |
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| 01:55 | < [R]> | Saw a language war, reminded me of dude who said Flash was going to kill all other programming languages, and that even system kernels would be written in it and I shouldn't bother learning C++. |
| 01:55 | <@Azash> | What |
| 01:56 | < [R]> | @the dude or my sentence? |
| 01:56 | <@Azash> | The dude |
| 01:56 | < McMartin> | An impressive number of people who should know better also think that wireless networking will make cable-based networks obsolete |
| 01:57 | < [R]> | lol |
| 01:57 | < [R]> | Actually, I am producing a sound that is not to disimilar to laughing. |
| 01:57 | < McMartin> | A simple rule of thumb is that humans only notice one layer of abstraction and think this makes the many dozens of layers below it not only irrelevant but actively nonexistent. |
| 01:57 | < [R]> | My simple rule of thumb with this person is to remember he's borderline special needs. |
| 01:57 | <@Azash> | [R]: I'm just staring at the monitor and looking for my cigarettes, does that work? |
| 02:01 | < [R]> | Eg: he was collecting his spit in a coke bottle one day. |
| 02:01 | < [R]> | It was... very pink. |
| 02:02 | <~Vornicus> | jerith: re: b-spline: is there a reason you explicitly do degree reduction on t's that are knots? The algorithm works regardless and look better that way (though you do have to special case the very top end of the domain) |
| 02:20 | <@macdjord> | System... kernals... in flash. |
| 02:20 | < McMartin> | Flash, of course, will run directly on the hardware. |
| 02:20 | < McMartin> | Just like Javascript runs directly on the hardware in ChromeOS! |
| 02:21 | < McMartin> | Logix |
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| 02:21 | <@macdjord> | Drivers. OS. Interpreters. Realtime apps. These are the things which have a legitimate need to be written in C/C++ these days. |
| 02:22 | < McMartin> | C++ isn't great for realtime apps because destructors mess with timing |
| 02:23 | < McMartin> | Depending on how you went through a loop or w/e exiting a scope could take arbitrary time |
| 02:23 | < McMartin> | &c |
| 02:23 | < McMartin> | But that's more "the syntax makes it harder to figure out what's really going on" |
| 02:24 | < McMartin> | C++ seems to fit best in a land where you need high levels of abstraction but also need regular access to the metal. |
| 02:24 | <@macdjord> | McMartin: More in the sense of 'these are the places where clock cycles and/or bit-representation details matter'. |
| 02:24 | < McMartin> | Yeah. |
| 02:24 | < McMartin> | C++ isn't as good at that stuff as its reputation, but if you need some of that and some of the high levels of abstraction, there's really nothing else that will do |
| 02:25 | < McMartin> | I guess maybe Go~ |
| 02:25 | <@macdjord> | In any other application, if I spend 1 hour chasing down an array overflow bug, how many trillions of times does that code have to execute before the cost, in machine time, of an automated bounds check exceeds the cost of my time bughunting? |
| 02:26 | <@macdjord> | Computrons are cheap; programmers are not. |
| 02:27 | <@Reiv> | Much of the 'glory days' of coder skill came from when the opposite was true. |
| 02:28 | | * macdjord assumes everyone here has read the Saga of Mel? |
| 02:28 | < [R]> | I have |
| 02:28 | < McMartin> | Yeah. Not hugely impressed by his tricks, tbh~ |
| 02:28 | < [R]> | Oh? |
| 02:29 | < McMartin> | Much of Mel's techniques have since been replicated by our merciless army of robots, and indeed programming in HLLs makes them easier to do. |
| 02:29 | <@macdjord> | McMartin: Hey, now. Back then, those tricks were worth it. And you can't deny his cleverness in finding them. |
| 02:29 | < McMartin> | macdjord: The big one was compiling from the inside out to match timing requirements and also to use instruction opcodes as constants where possible. |
| 02:30 | < McMartin> | Both of those are easier optimizations than running gcc -O1 now -_- |
| 02:30 | < McMartin> | (though the former buys you nothing and the latter doesn't buy you enough to be worth the effort and indeed may cost you data locality) |
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| 02:30 | < McMartin> | Self-modifying code as part of basic control is, um |
| 02:31 | < McMartin> | kind of part of the standard Windows 3.1 API, IIRC; the usual term is "trampoline" |
| 02:31 | <@macdjord> | The former is, as I understand it, rarely meaningful. And the second is easier when its all automated. |
| 02:31 | < McMartin> | Precisely so. |
| 02:31 | | * McMartin tends to be more impressed by the exploits of the people working in assembler under hard realtime constraints |
| 02:32 | < McMartin> | So, uh, Atari 2600 developers, I suppose, but they also publish their techniques and comment their code. |
| 02:32 | <@macdjord> | He didn't just use self-modifying code; he used code that modified itself /by a bug in the hardware/. |
| 02:32 | < McMartin> | Wasn't a bug; it was documented behavior the analyst didn't think of~ |
| 02:34 | < McMartin> | Anyway, yeah, I'm less impressed with Mel because I've seen the fruits of similar madmen, but madmen who were also systematic enough to produce results that were meeting completely absurd constraints that were *actually part of the problem* instead of just for the lulz and also did it in ways that other people could understand and even modify decades later. |
| 02:34 | < McMartin> | That to me seems like the greater skill~ |
| 02:35 | < McMartin> | There's apparently some real gems in the Atari 2600 Battlezone port. |
| 02:37 | < McMartin> | Could be a generational, thing, though. |
| 02:38 | < McMartin> | "make the hardware do stuff that isn't in its spec sheets" >>> "save a couple cycles at the cost of being unable to ever modify it sensibly" |
| 02:38 | <@macdjord> | Yeah, Back In The Day, a couple cycles was worth it. |
| 02:39 | < McMartin> | Not for Mel's use case, IMO~ |
| 02:39 | < McMartin> | Which the poem admits. |
| 02:40 | < McMartin> | I guess I'm mainly saying the demoscene has this one right; put the brilliance somewhere where *everyone* can see it |
| 02:40 | < McMartin> | If you have to do unnatural things under the hood to make it work, so be it |
| 02:40 | < McMartin> | But it's even better if you can make it work *without* that |
| 02:45 | <@macdjord> | Not for the blackjack program, maybe, but certainly for the sort of scientific computing application the machine was buitl for. |
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| 03:51 | <@celticminstrel> | Saga of Mel? |
| 03:54 | <@celticminstrel> | Incidentally, would Shantae (GBC) count for that "greater skill"/"gems" thing you were saying? |
| 03:57 | < [R]> | http://www.catb.org/jargon/html/story-of-mel.html |
| 03:57 | < [R]> | greater skill/gems? |
| 03:58 | <&Derakon> | [R]: accommplishing things that the hardware was supposedly not capable of doing. |
| 03:59 | <&Derakon> | Like, say, the 3D space combat in Elite. |
| 03:59 | <@celticminstrel> | Referring back to what McMartin said. |
| 03:59 | <&Derakon> | Or doing basically anything interesting on the Atari 2600~ |
| 03:59 | <@celticminstrel> | ...pfffft, really? |
| 03:59 | < McMartin> | Haven't played Shantae, but it might have such things. Often console games get better by the end because the suite of tricks deployed shift from awesome bugs |
| 04:00 | < McMartin> | to standard techniques. |
| 04:00 | <@celticminstrel> | I think it had parallax scrolling? |
| 04:00 | <&Derakon> | The GBC Shantae game is reasonably impressive but I don't remember it doing anything that made me go "Wow, I didn't think the GBC could do that". |
| 04:00 | < McMartin> | The 2600 isn't aware that TVs have multiple scanlines. |
| 04:00 | <@celticminstrel> | Apparently that's impressive. |
| 04:00 | < McMartin> | You have to manually throw VBLANK, and you place sprites by cyclecounting and saying "hey, where the electron gun is right now is where to move this sprite to" |
| 04:00 | <@celticminstrel> | I'm not even quite sure what it means not to know that. |
| 04:01 | <&Derakon> | CM: it means that you don't have a 2D display. |
| 04:01 | < McMartin> | A sprite's data is one byte long. |
| 04:01 | <&Derakon> | You have a 1D display that changes for each row of the screen. |
| 04:01 | < McMartin> | You draw a sprite that's more than one line tall by changing the sprite data every scanline, which you do by synchronizing with HBLANK. |
| 04:01 | <@celticminstrel> | Uhh... |
| 04:01 | <@celticminstrel> | X_X |
| 04:01 | < McMartin> | There *was* hardware support for hard-syncing to HBLANK. |
| 04:01 | < McMartin> | Like I said at the start here. |
| 04:01 | | thalass is now known as Thalass|afk |
| 04:01 | < [R]> | You meant the paralax thing? |
| 04:01 | < McMartin> | My "Mel"s are the legions of real-life 2600 developers. |
| 04:02 | <@celticminstrel> | Hm, [R]? |
| 04:02 | < [R]> | <celticminstrel> I'm not even quite sure what it means not to know that. |
| 04:02 | <@celticminstrel> | [Apr 30@11:00:15pm] McMartin: The 2600 isn't aware that TVs have multiple scanlines. |
| 04:02 | < McMartin> | I assumed the "that" was "that TV screens have 2 dimensions" |
| 04:02 | < [R]> | Same, got confused by the "uhh..." |
| 04:03 | < McMartin> | Now, once it's been placed, the sprite's position is locked and you can shift it left and right with other writes. |
| 04:03 | < McMartin> | But. |
| 04:03 | < McMartin> | There's only two sprites, so unless you're writing the simpler forms of the old Combat game you're going to have to repurpose those two sprites repeatedly every farme. |
| 04:03 | < McMartin> | *frame |
| 04:04 | < [R]> | CM: Basically old screens displayed like a printer does, printing a line of pixels at a time. Except it does it at a specific rate, and so you'd have to stop your program at certain time intervals to make sure to get the line of pixels out, because there was no display buffer. (AFAIK, I might have gotten details wrong) |
| 04:05 | < McMartin> | On the plus side, since all scanlines are vaguely independent, this effectively means that sprites are infinitely tall because there's no difference in difficulty between rendering a two-line-tall sprite and a two-hundred-line tall one~ |
| 04:05 | <&Derakon> | ...do you even have 200 lines~? |
| 04:05 | < McMartin> | R: That's roughly it. |
| 04:05 | < McMartin> | Derakon: IIRC NTSC is 242 lines? |
| 04:05 | <&Derakon> | Ah, okay. |
| 04:06 | < McMartin> | With N other lines dedicated to VBLANK, and N could vary a little |
| 04:06 | < McMartin> | AIUI that's why VGA is 640x480; 240 lines interlaced = 480 lines. |
| 04:06 | < McMartin> | So 480i is "basically" SDTV |
| 04:07 | < McMartin> | I'm not 100% sure where the earlier and extremely ubiquitous 320x200 comes from. |
| 04:08 | < McMartin> | Wait, now I do~ |
| 04:08 | < McMartin> | 320*200 = 64000 |
| 04:08 | < McMartin> | 320*240 = 76800 |
| 04:08 | < McMartin> | One of these fits in a 16-bit pointer, one of these does not~ |
| 04:08 | < [R]> | Yay FAR pointers! |
| 04:09 | < [R]> | (since that many pixels would basically eat all the addressable space, I'm assuming this is where FAR ppointers come into play...) |
| 04:09 | <@celticminstrel> | Is that Mel thing based on anything real, or is it pure fiction? |
| 04:09 | < McMartin> | Drum-memory computers existed. |
| 04:09 | <&Derakon> | It has some correspondence with the real world. |
| 04:09 | < McMartin> | Other than that, no idea~ |
| 04:10 | <&Derakon> | The supposed company has been identified, anyway. |
| 04:10 | <&Derakon> | They apparently did have a Blackjack game. |
| 04:11 | < McMartin> | The overflow-to-finish-a-loop thing seems like it could be made into a peephole optimization~ |
| 04:11 | < McMartin> | a la the tail-call trick you see a lot of in C64 and NES code |
| 04:11 | < McMartin> | (Where you have many subroutines with no return statements, because their last instruction before the return is itself a CALL) |
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| 04:11 | < McMartin> | (and CALL-followed-by-return is basically GOTO) |
| 04:11 | < McMartin> | (But more expensive, so!) |
| 04:15 | <@macdjord> | celticminstrel: Supposedly a true story; I have no particular reason to doubt it. |
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| 07:06 | <&jeroud> | Vornicus: I have no idea. There was probably a reason that made sense at the time. |
| 07:42 | <~Vornicus> | mmm, looks like without that you're edgifying the "0 degree last knot" corner case, which means it gets hit more often. |
| 07:43 | <~Vornicus> | But in that case -- if you're at the edge of the domain -- you should merely set your index to one lower. clamp it to the index just before the real end. |
| 07:53 | <&jerith> | Vornicus: If you can fix my splines I'll be very happy. :-) |
| 07:53 | <&jerith> | I'm tired of having a broken spline.~ |
| 08:00 | | Confusion [Confusion@Nightstar-2qdds4.snap.net.nz] has joined #code |
| 08:00 | < Confusion> | I'm looking for advice. Any of you worked IT Helpdesk on a shift roster? Is it worth it? |
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| 08:34 | <&jerith> | Confusion: I haven't, and the job would kill me. |
| 08:35 | <&jerith> | But that's because of the "helpdesk" part and because I hate dealing with people who don't know what they're doing. |
| 08:38 | < Confusion> | @Jerith: I already work a form of helpdesk, but it's a different kind? I work application support for a Vendor, rather than working for a company as inhouse support. |
| 08:38 | <&jerith> | I can't help you with that, I'm afriad. |
| 08:38 | <&jerith> | *afraid |
| 08:39 | <&jerith> | I'm much more suited to writing bugs. :-) |
| 08:41 | < Confusion> | Curse you. |
| 08:41 | | * Confusion is second tier direct Client Support. Has to take the brunt of what the bugwriters do. |
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| 08:49 | <&jerith> | Also, I'm generally the person who gets called on weekends when the bugs manifest. |
| 08:49 | <&jerith> | And I fix *almost* as many bugs as I write. |
| 08:50 | < Confusion> | Fair. I just identify and shoot back |
| 08:51 | | * jerith puts on his helmet and flak vest. |
| 08:52 | < Confusion> | In fairness, I try to identify as accurately as I can, given I don't have sourcecode access? |
| 08:52 | < Confusion> | I work by comparing the database, and the output from the frontend |
| 08:52 | < Confusion> | and treat the middle as a magic box. |
| 08:53 | < Confusion> | Sometimse I can identify the rules for the magic box. |
| 08:54 | <&jerith> | My bug reports are usually things like "ten thousand people in Nigeria are complaining that their USSD sessions are timing out". |
| 08:55 | <&jerith> | Sometimes that's our fault, sometimes it's the telco's fault. |
| 09:09 | < Confusion> | Oh, we're a cloud services provider |
| 09:09 | < Confusion> | it really sucks trying to explain to people thjat they need to lodge a service fault with their telco |
| 09:09 | < Confusion> | because their telco is always going to tell them to talk to us because it's our fault |
| 09:09 | < Confusion> | despite it being a fault affecting multiple of their clients. |
| 09:10 | <&jerith> | Yeah. |
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| 13:16 | | * TheWatcher hairpulls at javascript |
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| 13:17 | <@ErikMesoy> | Did you get paired with a programmer trained on Java who's confident that Javascript is similar enough to be easy? |
| 13:18 | <@TheWatcher> | no |
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| 13:19 | <@ErikMesoy> | Then what is wrong? |
| 13:19 | <@TheWatcher> | ajax is what's wrong |
| 13:20 | <@TheWatcher> | or, more speifically, the fact that it is being a painin the arse with html enclosed in cdata |
| 13:21 | <@ErikMesoy> | Would this be one of the "five pounds of shit held together with four pounds of glue" solutions? |
| 13:22 | <@TheWatcher> | Nope this would be the "implementing autosave and restore for users who need CKeditor WYSIWYMG editing in a page" |
| 13:22 | <@ErikMesoy> | CKeditor? |
| 13:22 | < NSGuest59783> | FCKeditor* |
| 13:22 | <@TheWatcher> | http://ckeditor.com/ |
| 13:24 | <@ErikMesoy> | "The best web text editor for everyone - browser not responding" :D |
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| 16:24 | <@ErikMesoy> | http://stilldrinking.org/programming-sucks |
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| 16:42 | <@Azash> | Seems you were right, McMartin |
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| 17:04 | | * TheWatcher eyes ErikMesoy |
| 17:05 | <@TheWatcher> | Y'know, I'd love to be able to say that's hyperbole. |
| 17:09 | <@ErikMesoy> | TheWatcher: Do you say the same thing about the login:logout guy? |
| 17:10 | <@TheWatcher> | James Mickens? |
| 17:11 | <@TheWatcher> | Mostly. |
| 17:13 | <@ErikMesoy> | Yes. I recall he had largely the same style of complaining that clicking links is unsafe and running apps is unsafe but there's not much to do online other than click links and run apps, and thus it must be sadly concluded that being online is an unfortunately imminent, unavoidable, and eloquently described form of absurdist doom. |
| 17:14 | <@Tamber> | :) |
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| 17:43 | < [R]> | Google is not helping me find this login logoff blog... |
| 17:52 | <@ErikMesoy> | [R]: https://research.microsoft.com/en-us/people/mickens/thenightwatch.pdf , https://research.microsoft.com/en-us/people/mickens/thisworldofours.pdf , https://www.usenix.org/legacy/system/files/1403_02-08_mickens.pdf , https://www.usenix.org/system/files/1401_08-12_mickens.pdf |
| 17:53 | <@ErikMesoy> | >and then you realize that your prodigal memory accesses have been stomping around the heap like the Incredible Hulk when asked to write an essay entitled âSmashing Considered Harmful.â |
| 17:53 | < [R]> | Thanks |
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| 19:59 | <@RchrdB> | I should publish some software with "This Software shall be used for Evil, not Good." appended to the license just to make it mutually incompatible with Crockford's JSON library. |
| 20:01 | | Derakon[AFK] [chriswei@Nightstar-5fqf0m.ca.comcast.net] has joined #code |
| 20:01 | | Derakon[AFK] is now known as Derakon2 |
| 20:02 | | * Derakon2 swears at git and SVN and code repositories and merges and etc. |
| 20:02 | < Derakon2> | Work uses an SVN repository because of history. |
| 20:02 | < Derakon2> | Coworker sets me up with a gitsvn local repository. |
| 20:02 | < Derakon2> | I do a bunch of work across three different local branches. |
| 20:02 | <@RchrdB> | You can't use git-svn sober. |
| 20:02 | < Derakon2> | Yesterday the release went out, so I can commit to SVN again. |
| 20:03 | <@RchrdB> | Are you drunk? |
| 20:03 | <@RchrdB> | If not, drink more, then it'll be easier. |
| 20:03 | <@RchrdB> | git-svn doesn't work when you're sober. |
| 20:03 | < Derakon2> | Go to first branch, "git svn rebase", resolve some conflicts, "git svn dcommit", everything's on SVN, hooray. |
| 20:04 | < Derakon2> | Merge second branch into master (which was the aforementioned first branch), "git svn rebase", the fucking thing finds a conflict on every single commit from the first branch! |
| 20:04 | < Derakon2> | That's not even what's changed you mangy piece of shit! |
| 20:04 | < Derakon2> | I can look at the diff between what's currently in SVN and what's in master and none of it is the files that your merge is conflicting on! |
| 20:05 | < Derakon2> | Anyone have any clue WTF? |
| 20:06 | < Derakon2> | More importantly, anyone have any clue how I can safely commit this to SVN, i.e. with tracking down actual conflicts? |
| 20:06 | < Derakon2> | I guess if the diff looks okay it should be clear to push, but yeesh. |
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| 20:13 | | * Derakon2 commits, waits for the explosion. |
| 20:46 | < Derakon2> | ...well, no boom yet. |
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| 20:54 | <@TheWatcher> | There should have been an Earth-shattering kaboom!~ |
| 21:01 | < Derakon2> | Thank you, but I don't want to blow up the master repository two weeks into my job, when the guy who knows how everything works just left on vacation. |
| 21:01 | < Derakon2> | That would be bad for my stress level~ |
| 21:13 | <@TheWatcher> | Heh, I know, I just can't resist quoting Marvin |
| 21:13 | <@TheWatcher> | (how're you finding it there?) |
| 21:23 | < Derakon2> | So far, so good! |
| 21:23 | < Derakon2> | There's a lot of technical debt to pay down, but on the other hand, we're making an active effort to, y'know, do so. |
| 21:30 | <@TheWatcher> | \o/ |
| 21:32 | < McMartin> | When we say "a lot" are we talking sebcode a lot or "all code is bad" a lot? |
| 21:33 | < Derakon2> | Somewhere in the middle. |
| 21:33 | < Derakon2> | Sebcode was actively malicious as far as I'm concerned. |
| 21:33 | < Derakon2> | This is mostly just the result of organic design over 5-10 years' development. |
| 21:34 | | * McMartin refers to the section "All code is bad" in http://stilldrinking.org/programming-sucks |
| 21:35 | < McMartin> | That is, the maxim that good code doesn't survive deployment and maintenance. |
| 21:36 | <&jeroud> | Derakon2: Where are you now? |
| 21:36 | < McMartin> | I do note that the offhand line about light German electronica *also* seems to have hit closer to home than a lot of people were happy to admit~ |
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| 21:41 | <@ErikMesoy> | I put on Russian monks. :p |
| 21:43 | <@ErikMesoy> | "It reads like poetry written by someone over thirty." Not sure which person, group or groups this is supposed to be a reference to. |
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| 21:54 | < Derakon2> | Jer: still at UCSF, just a different department; I'm working on the Micro-Manager project now. |
| 22:00 | | * TheWatcher gets the prototype of the weighted random item picker working reliably, now for the real test... |
| 22:00 | <&jerith> | Derakon2: Ah, so the job you were hoping to get. \o/ |
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| 22:03 | < Derakon2> | Quite. |
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| 22:38 | <&jerith> | Having never really listened to light German electronica, I asked an expert on music from the last two or three decades for a type specimen. |
| 22:40 | < McMartin> | The closest I have here are C64 chiptunes from people with umlauts in their names. |
| 22:41 | <&jerith> | I was directed to Schiller's Weltreise, which is really very good. |
| 22:41 | < McMartin> | Link? |
| 22:42 | < McMartin> | Or rather, are samples available, etc. |
| 22:42 | < McMartin> | Being unsure of the form of this~ |
| 22:42 | < McMartin> | Answer: YouTube and Amazon provide~ |
| 22:43 | <&jerith> | And would go well with 12 year old Glenlivet and a beautifaully crafted algorithm. |
| 22:44 | < McMartin> | Yeah, it's hard to disagree |
| 22:44 | <&jerith> | McMartin: I was issued a surreptitious binary blob. |
| 22:44 | < McMartin> | Unfortunately for me, this code here is also, er, organic. |
| 22:44 | < McMartin> | And so it's not really suitable for this. |
| 22:45 | | * Derakon2 mutters at Swing, which is not displaying tooltips. |
| 22:46 | <&jerith> | Derakon2: No Schiller for you if you're looking at Swing!~ |
| 22:46 | <&jerith> | McMartin: The album is designed to be played all the way through from beginning to end. |
| 22:46 | <&jerith> | The tracks flow very nicely into each other. |
| 22:47 | < McMartin> | Yeah, that's very obvious just from the preview clips. |
| 22:49 | | * McMartin attempts to make some third-party libraries be both cleanly usable and readily deployable. |
| 22:49 | <&jerith> | McMartin: No Schiller for you either.~ |
| 22:50 | < McMartin> | Quite so. |
| 22:50 | | * McMartin has switched back to the chiptunes. |
| 22:53 | <&jerith> | My standard coding music is the five hours and six minutes of AI War soundtrack. |
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| 22:59 | | Kindamoody|out is now known as Kindamoody |
| 23:04 | | Kindamoody is now known as Kindamoody[zZz] |
| 23:16 | | * TheWatcher readsup |
| 23:31 | <@TheWatcher> | My coding music tends to involved a fair amount of Roberto Cacciapaglia, Ludovico Einaudi, Jeremy Soule, and a few others. |
| 23:32 | | * Derakon2 is listening to Jami Seiber right now; also has Loreena McKennitt, Planet Boelex, and a bunch of miscellaneous videogame music. |
| 23:32 | < Derakon2> | Ratchet & Clank 2 is pretty awesome for coding music. |
| 23:33 | | * McMartin has Machinae Supremacy going right now. |
| 23:34 | | * jerith has just started Weltreise for the second time. |
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| 23:44 | <@Azash> | I'd probably name names but I don't know if saying anything more detailed than "80's, 90's US rap" would work too well here |
| --- Log closed Fri May 02 00:00:38 2014 |