| --- Log opened Sun Apr 20 00:00:17 2014 |
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| 00:16 | <@celticminstrel> | Oh hey, someone already made a gzstream. Less work for me. |
| 00:17 | <@celticminstrel> | Though they decided to use a .C extension. That'll have to go. |
| 00:27 | <@celticminstrel> | Oh hey, if you drag a folder into XCode that contains a Makefile, it recognizes this and offers to make use of it. |
| 00:30 | <@celticminstrel> | gzstream doesn't support seeking, but I don't think I need seeking. |
| 00:31 | <&McMartin> | A gzipped stream in general will not support seeking |
| 00:31 | <@celticminstrel> | zlib.h defines gzseek(). |
| 00:31 | <&McMartin> | And does it do it by reading over everything until it gets to where you want? |
| 00:32 | <@celticminstrel> | I dunno. Seems likely, |
| 00:33 | <@celticminstrel> | Finder, why do you keep spinning a beachball when I try to drag things around. |
| 00:37 | <@celticminstrel> | ...silly me, I tried to save something in a non-existent directory without first telling the program to create the directory. |
| 00:42 | <@celticminstrel> | Yay, saving files finally works! |
| 00:42 | <@celticminstrel> | Now I just have to reimplement loading. |
| 00:46 | <@celticminstrel> | (And make sure I didn't forget to save anything important.) |
| 00:46 | <@celticminstrel> | (Which I did, incidentally.) |
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| 01:05 | <@celticminstrel> | This is also a good time to consider whether to rethink the basic idea of the file format. |
| 01:05 | <@celticminstrel> | It's mostly a sort of plaintext key-value format. |
| 01:07 | <@celticminstrel> | And it has formfeeds. I dunno if that's inherently a bad idea. |
| 01:09 | <@celticminstrel> | So, "key-value-like data with one key-value per line" <formfeed> "array data delimited by tabs and newlines" <formfeed> "more array data delimited by tabs and newlines". |
| 01:10 | <@celticminstrel> | Some of the array data (where the arrays can be treated as "sparse") is stored as key-value data, so you get lots of lines of the form "key index subkey value". |
| 01:19 | <&ToxicFrog> | If you're using nonprintings anyways, why "delimited by tabs and newlines"? |
| 01:19 | <&ToxicFrog> | Use RS and FS. |
| 01:19 | <@celticminstrel> | I think formfeed technically doesn't count as nonprintable. |
| 01:20 | <@celticminstrel> | I think it counts as whitespace. |
| 01:23 | <@celticminstrel> | I suppose using RS and FS doesn't "technically" disqualify it from being a plaintext file, much like how tar is "technically" a plaintext format that happens to contain a lot of nulls (assuming of course that the contents are themselves plaintext). |
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| 01:25 | <~Vornicus> | That does seem problematic |
| 01:26 | <@celticminstrel> | Hm, Vornicus? |
| 01:26 | <~Vornicus> | Well -- form feed is not a thing I can type. |
| 01:27 | <@celticminstrel> | This is true. |
| 01:27 | <~Vornicus> | Usually when I need to separate things like this I use a blank line. |
| 01:27 | <~Vornicus> | Interestingly this makes processing disparate arrays in separate loops easy in Python |
| 01:27 | <@celticminstrel> | Huh? |
| 01:27 | <~Vornicus> | You can do... |
| 01:28 | <@celticminstrel> | I doubt most people would edit these files by hand, since they are stored into a tarball which is then gzipped and prefixed with a custom header. |
| 01:28 | <@celticminstrel> | Though I'm sure there will be people who try anyway. |
| 01:28 | <@celticminstrel> | (And succeed, of course.) |
| 01:28 | <~Vornicus> | for line in file: if not line: break; (process the line as the first array);; for line in file: if not line: break; (process the line as the second array);; ... |
| 01:28 | <@celticminstrel> | Ah. |
| 01:28 | <@celticminstrel> | If I use std::getline, that would return an empty string on a blank line, right? |
| 01:29 | <~Vornicus> | Not very familiar with C++'s file munching |
| 01:30 | <@celticminstrel> | I could also use something like "-" on a line by itself as a delimiter. |
| 01:31 | <@celticminstrel> | The "key index subkey value" business also seems like it might be a little hard to parse. |
| 01:32 | <@celticminstrel> | Particularly since I want each object to be responsible for parsing its own info. |
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| 01:37 | <@celticminstrel> | (Incidentally, these are two-dimensional arrays. I'm not sure if I made that clear initially.) |
| 01:37 | <@celticminstrel> | (At least, the tab-and-newline-delimited ones are.) |
| 01:38 | <@celticminstrel> | (The "sparse" ones aren't.) |
| 01:39 | | * Tarinaky complains about google chrome being completely unusable sometimes. |
| 01:39 | <@celticminstrel> | Oh? |
| 01:39 | <@Tarinaky> | The page(s) not responding dialogue is not responding. |
| 01:39 | <@celticminstrel> | Oh fun! |
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| 02:09 | <@celticminstrel> | I feel like Java annotations would kinda make this easier. Oh well. |
| 02:57 | <&ToxicFrog> | Vornicus: so, if this is not data users are expected to edit but is just a serialization format for data structures containing text, not being able to type FF (or RS or FS) is a feature. |
| 02:57 | <&ToxicFrog> | Although it does raise the question of why not just use an existing format. |
| 02:58 | <~Vornicus> | A true pthing |
| 03:00 | <@celticminstrel> | Most of the data is actually numerical. |
| 03:01 | <@celticminstrel> | There's some text. |
| 03:01 | <@celticminstrel> | A few booleans. |
| 03:01 | <@celticminstrel> | But mostly numbers. |
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| 03:38 | <@celticminstrel> | I want to simplify this somehow but I have no idea how. |
| 03:57 | <@Tarinaky> | celticminstrel: Delete 10 lines at random :p |
| 03:57 | <@celticminstrel> | Pfffft. |
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| 05:27 | <@celticminstrel> | Okay, so why am I using CoreFoundation to get my path when it's passed in through argv. Duh. |
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| 05:29 | <@celticminstrel> | Though... I might have to be careful with that. It could be a relative path, which means I need to absolutify it... on the other hand, if it's a relative path, I can probably assume that means relative to getcwd(), right? |
| 05:29 | <&McMartin> | That's what it usually means, yeah. |
| 05:29 | <@celticminstrel> | For some reason, the Finder always sets getcwd() to "/". |
| 05:29 | <&McMartin> | If it's a relative path you're passing to an fstream subclass, you're golden |
| 05:29 | <@celticminstrel> | Or maybe it's XCode that does that, one of them. |
| 05:29 | <&McMartin> | Yeah, but the Finder is launching it as .app, so it should also be absolutifying it for you |
| 05:30 | <@celticminstrel> | Yeah, but some day there might be a Linux version. |
| 05:30 | <&McMartin> | There it's gonna do as you describe, yeah |
| 05:30 | <&McMartin> | fstream/fopen are totally fine with relative paths. |
| 05:30 | <@celticminstrel> | Still, setting getcwd() to "/" is the reason I'm taking all this trouble to use absolute paths everywhere. |
| 05:31 | | * McMartin nods |
| 05:31 | <@celticminstrel> | It seems kind of a silly thing to do. |
| 05:31 | <&McMartin> | boost::filesystem had some absolutery going on. I dunno if C++11 picked it up |
| 05:31 | <@celticminstrel> | I've been using boost;:filesystem. |
| 05:31 | <@celticminstrel> | ^:: |
| 05:31 | | * McMartin nods |
| 05:31 | | * McMartin seems to recall that absolute doesn't require the file to exist, but, um, 'canonicalize' does |
| 05:32 | <&McMartin> | Or else the other way |
| 05:32 | <&McMartin> | I forget which |
| 05:32 | <&McMartin> | Use the one that doesn't require the file to actually exist~ |
| 05:32 | <@celticminstrel> | Well, the file does exist; it's the executable. Then I use boost::filesystem::path to strip away a few nodes and add whatever I need. |
| 05:34 | | * McMartin nods |
| 05:36 | <@celticminstrel> | So canonical looks like it should do what I want. |
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| 05:46 | <@celticminstrel> | CoreFoundation actually gave me the path to the .app, while argv contains the path to the binary, but that's easily handled. |
| 06:16 | <@Alek> | "I'm not swearing, I'm explaining to people, in a language everybody understands, what they're supposed to do. Everybody's happy." "Uhhuh. Universal Client Programming Language. Curse++" |
| 06:18 | <&McMartin> | Today in Things Not Quite Working: https://hkn.eecs.berkeley.edu/~mcmartin/retro/cc3_1.png |
| 06:18 | <&McMartin> | (intended result: https://hkn.eecs.berkeley.edu/~mcmartin/retro/cc3_2.png) |
| 06:20 | <@Alek> | you do, of course, know that emulators only approximate the original hardware, and the original code often takes advantage of quirks of the hardware, for various reasons, and thus doesn't always work in an emulator properly? |
| 06:21 | <@Alek> | Because that's the first thing that comes to mind when hearing about emulators and not-quite-working code. |
| 06:21 | | * Alek shrugs. |
| 06:21 | <&McMartin> | Alek: No |
| 06:21 | <&McMartin> | This particular emulator is gate exact, AIUI |
| 06:21 | <&McMartin> | I'm setting up code to do cycle shifts to interfere with HBLANKs |
| 06:21 | <&McMartin> | (The goal is ultimately to put it on real hardware because this is pushing said emulation extremely hard) |
| 06:22 | <@Alek> | and then, of course, there's the reverse problem, perhaps. |
| 06:22 | <&McMartin> | (But they've had 20 years of people doing Much Crazier Than This and they've managed to catch up.) |
| 06:22 | <&McMartin> | Yeah, C64 emulation in particular has seen a great deal of work because people want demos to work |
| 06:22 | <@Alek> | that the quirks being emulated throw off the code in unexpected ways, if you just coded straight. maybe. |
| 06:23 | <&McMartin> | Could be |
| 06:23 | <&McMartin> | That's why I'm setting up what is basically a controlled experiment~ |
| 06:23 | | * Alek nods. |
| 06:23 | <@Alek> | If it were me, I'd do some research into known display quirks of the C64. |
| 06:23 | | * McMartin has a stack of books right here |
| 06:24 | <&McMartin> | The literature is... inconsistent |
| 06:24 | <@Alek> | heh. |
| 06:24 | <&McMartin> | I know what's happening because this is basically how you did Anything At All on the Atari 2600 |
| 06:24 | <&McMartin> | (Where the sprite placement involves cycle counting and a register you wrote to that meant 'place this sprite where the electron gun in the CRT is pointed right now) |
| 06:25 | <@Alek> | sorry, I'd be happy to help, but a: I have next to 0 experience with the C64, and b: I'm not near enough to help with the books. not to mention not knowing the code, the language, or the objective. |
| 06:25 | <&McMartin> | Heh |
| 06:25 | <&McMartin> | There's apparently an MIT professor and one of his students that have been following my messing around with this stuff. |
| 06:25 | <@Alek> | about all I can do is what I just did, throw out vague ideas based on stuff I've heard of. |
| 06:26 | <&McMartin> | Note that I did ultimately make it work - the second screencap is my tweaked version that looks right |
| 06:26 | <@Alek> | I've played around with emulated games, of course. so I've heard about the emulation problems in general. |
| 06:26 | <&McMartin> | Yeah |
| 06:26 | <&McMartin> | What's happening here is that I'm waiting to trigger background color changes on specific scanlines being hit |
| 06:27 | <@Alek> | the hardware quirks go all the way back to the rotary drum machines. if you've heard that story. |
| 06:27 | <&McMartin> | Yep |
| 06:27 | <&McMartin> | There are two ways you can do this; the published code from '83 uses what it itself admits is the wrong way |
| 06:27 | <&McMartin> | So I'm trying to "do it right", but I've never gotten the right way to work until now. |
| 06:27 | | * Alek applauds. |
| 06:28 | <&McMartin> | Now, what I'm seeing is that when doing it right, the hardware signal actually comes in a little early |
| 06:28 | <&McMartin> | So you have to wait some number of cycles before doing anything or it will (as shown in the first screenshot) fire early |
| 06:28 | <&McMartin> | The '83 code worked around this by hiding that entire chunk of the screen~ |
| 06:29 | <&McMartin> | https://hkn.eecs.berkeley.edu/~mcmartin/retro/colorchart1.html |
| 06:29 | <@Alek> | random question: is the line after 10 and before next supposed to be blank, or is that just a sad case of foreground and background color matching? |
| 06:29 | <&McMartin> | https://hkn.eecs.berkeley.edu/~mcmartin/retro/colorchart2.html |
| 06:29 | <&McMartin> | The latter :D |
| 06:30 | <&McMartin> | The original program was using tricks to show all possible foreground/background combinations simultaneously |
| 06:31 | <&McMartin> | Which is not really possible according to the spec sheet unless you get tricky |
| 06:31 | <&McMartin> | Which it did |
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| 06:38 | | * Alek applauds again. |
| 06:38 | <@Alek> | fun stuff. |
| 06:39 | | * McMartin has written a few 8-bit demos but nothing super-impressive |
| 06:39 | <@Alek> | even if it's not directly applicable to modern hardware and software, the techniques may eventually be implementable for AI optimization. |
| 06:39 | <@Alek> | or well, I don't see how it'd be directly applicable today. |
| 06:39 | <&McMartin> | Heh |
| 06:40 | <&McMartin> | I enjoy applying modern analysis to ancient technologies |
| 06:40 | | * Alek nods. |
| 06:40 | <@Alek> | everybody's gotta have a hobby. |
| 06:40 | <&McMartin> | Yeah |
| 06:41 | <&McMartin> | There's some New Media guys that seem to pay some attention to it, so that's fun too |
| 06:51 | <&McMartin> | And I've written a couple simple NES games, since it's the same chip and this was the first assembly code I ever learned :D |
| 06:56 | <@celticminstrel> | I had a vague notion of writing a NES game at some point. |
| 06:56 | <@celticminstrel> | (The chances of it actually happening are probably low.) |
| 06:57 | <&McMartin> | It's an incredibly obnoxious platform to work on. |
| 06:57 | <@celticminstrel> | Not surprising. |
| 06:57 | <&McMartin> | But if you want to mess with 6502 assembler code, my Ophis assembler is pretty good for it and has some sample code~ |
| 06:58 | <@celticminstrel> | I'll remember that. :P |
| 06:58 | | * McMartin has some open issues filed against it he *should* be doing this weekend, but he's writing up this silly demo instead |
| 06:58 | <&McMartin> | It will end with a program I am tentatively calling the Wince-o-tron. |
| 07:13 | <@celticminstrel> | This tarball class I wrote makes the code at least 10 times more readable. |
| 07:15 | <&McMartin> | Data abstraction: actually pretty great |
| 07:15 | <@celticminstrel> | I should probably deal with files missing in the archive, but whatever. |
| 07:16 | | * celticminstrel adds a TODO note. |
| 07:18 | <@celticminstrel> | Oh, I should probably set the bad bit or something. |
| 07:21 | <@celticminstrel> | And then check for that. |
| 07:21 | <@celticminstrel> | Not so hard after all. |
| 07:32 | <&McMartin> | OK, now to write the most obnoxious thing I've ever written, thanks to not having made any real progress on the Atrocitron. |
| 07:51 | <&McMartin> | AHAHAHAHAHA |
| 07:51 | <&McMartin> | AN WIGSIGOR IS ME |
| 07:51 | <@celticminstrel> | What. |
| 07:51 | <&McMartin> | A Winner Is Me, but in Old English |
| 07:51 | <@celticminstrel> | Okay then! |
| 07:52 | <&McMartin> | (I got my program working) |
| 07:52 | <@celticminstrel> | Gathered that. :P |
| 07:53 | <@ErikMesoy> | EN VINNER ER MEG |
| 07:54 | <@celticminstrel> | The only Old English sentence I could give you off the top of my head is "Sumer is icumen in". |
| 07:54 | <&McMartin> | Looks like it's basically all right on both PAL and NTSC. |
| 07:54 | <&McMartin> | That's Middle English, IIRC. Old English is what Beowulf was in. |
| 07:55 | <@celticminstrel> | Oh, you're probably right. |
| 07:55 | | * celticminstrel shrugs. |
| 08:20 | <@ErikMesoy> | http://www.bitundo.com/ |
| 08:20 | <&McMartin> | OK, https://hkn.eecs.berkeley.edu/~mcmartin/retro/colorchart3.html is written up |
| 08:20 | <@ErikMesoy> | The guy I got this from remarks: "chargebacks not supported? that's ok, we'll spam the ledger with false information to cancel the transaction" |
| 08:21 | <@ErikMesoy> | magic internet money! |
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| 08:34 | <~Vornicus> | Riddle me this, batman. A gen 1 pokemon, when in your party, is 67 bytes long. But three or four of those bytes are, as far as I can tell, duplicates of information that should be in the overall type record. |
| 08:35 | <@macdjord> | Vornicus: Error-checking? Saving an indirrect lookup on a few of the most-used pieced of info? |
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| 08:35 | <~Vornicus> | Why does the individual pokemon need to keep track of its catch rate or its types? |
| 08:37 | <~Vornicus> | It still needs to go to the type record for the max PP, the XP to next level, the actual sprite, the type-specific data, all the information about its attacks, the type name... |
| 08:37 | <@ErikMesoy> | Spare space for forwards. compatibility. |
| 08:37 | <@ErikMesoy> | I don't know if it was actually planned that way, though. |
| 08:37 | <@ErikMesoy> | But the catch rate data space was later used for held item. |
| 08:38 | <@ErikMesoy> | Meaning you can put an item on a gen 2 pokemon, trade it back to gen 1, it will have funny "catch rate" data, and preserve the item when traded back to gen 2 later, even though gen 1 doesn't support held items. |
| 08:39 | <~Vornicus> | huh. |
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| 11:23 | | * Vornicus finds himself thinking about depixel again |
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| 12:19 | <&jerith> | Vornicus: If you can figure out the mathematical problems in my curve smoothing I'll be forever grateful. |
| 12:20 | <~Vornicus> | jerith: I'm examining your code as we speak |
| 12:20 | <&jerith> | My main problem is that I don't grok the mathematics of splines. |
| 12:21 | <&jerith> | Well, my *main* problem is that the paper lacks sufficient detail to actually implement the algorithm. |
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| 12:24 | <~Vornicus> | yeah, there's some messy bits |
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| 12:51 | < froztbyte> | jerith: what about your __main__ problem? |
| 12:51 | < froztbyte> | or don't you have one of those? |
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| 12:57 | <&jerith> | Now my problem is that Vorn hasn't solved my other problems. ;-) |
| 12:58 | < froztbyte> | haha |
| 12:58 | <@Tamber> | hehe |
| 13:09 | <@ErikMesoy> | http://java.metagno.me/ JAVAAAAA *shakes fist* |
| 13:09 | <@ErikMesoy> | (markov chain generator. shows two fake and one real java class name, guess which is which.) |
| 13:11 | <@Tamber> | 7/21. I am not good at Java, apparently. :) |
| 13:11 | <@Tamber> | (And that's where I give up.( |
| 13:12 | | * Tamber glares at that paren, hits it with a wrench until it's the right way around. |
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| 16:42 | <@celticminstrel> | This parsing isn't hard, it's just really tedious to code. |
| 17:02 | <&ToxicFrog> | Tamber: 4/21 |
| 17:02 | <&ToxicFrog> | celticminstrel: what are you parsing? |
| 17:20 | <@celticminstrel> | The stuff I was talking about yesterday. |
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| 17:43 | <@celticminstrel> | I should probably have subroutines or something. |
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| 17:47 | <@celticminstrel> | Is there any possibility of 2D arrays having padding between the rows? |
| 17:53 | <@celticminstrel> | Okay, so given an integral type T, the "int" type of the same signedness could be obtained by decltype(T()+1), I think...? |
| 17:54 | <&ToxicFrog> | celticminstrel: I think it's specified that they're stored contiguous in memory, but the fact that you are asking this question at all is kind of scary |
| 17:54 | <@Azash> | I think it falls pretty squarely under "don't rely on it unless your name is Mel" |
| 17:55 | <@celticminstrel> | Maybe I should add a template nontype parameter then and pass it as T(*)[n] instead of T**. |
| 17:55 | <@Tamber> | Arrays are just syntactic sugar on pointer arithmetic anyway. |
| 17:55 | <@Tamber> | ~ |
| 17:56 | <@celticminstrel> | I could add two template nontype parameters and pass it as T(&)[n][m], but why bother. |
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| 18:07 | <@celticminstrel> | Hm. |
| 18:08 | <@celticminstrel> | One of the 2D arrays is accessed via a function. Yay complications. |
| 18:17 | | Kindamoody is now known as Kindamoody|out |
| 18:31 | <@celticminstrel> | So the proper response to invalid input is setting failbit. |
| 18:33 | <@celticminstrel> | Some day I'll actually handle errors instead of just ignoring them. >_> |
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| 19:48 | <@celticminstrel> | Oh, whoops, I tried to read the entire tar entry into a buffer of length 512. |
| 19:51 | | Kindamoody is now known as Kindamoody[zZz] |
| 20:09 | <@celticminstrel> | Ooh, I'm reading the octal size as an integer... uh... how to fix this... |
| 20:09 | <@celticminstrel> | ^decimal integer |
| 20:10 | <@celticminstrel> | I guess I could sscanf. |
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| 21:00 | | * celticminstrel blinks. |
| 21:01 | <@celticminstrel> | Suddenly I see "Return Value" in the variables view in the debugger. This is the first time I remember seeing it in this version of XCode. |
| 21:01 | | Turaiel[Offline] is now known as Turaiel |
| 21:01 | <@celticminstrel> | Maybe it only shows up when you "Step Out" of a function? I dunno... |
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| 21:41 | <@celticminstrel> | O_O |
| 21:42 | <@Tamber> | o.o |
| 21:42 | <@celticminstrel> | Why are there so many places checking town terrain when there's no reason to assum you're in town... |
| 21:42 | <@celticminstrel> | Well, okay, I think I only found two or three, but still. |
| 21:43 | <@celticminstrel> | ...and this last one was simply a matter of missing braces... |
| 21:44 | <@celticminstrel> | ^assume |
| 21:45 | <@Alek> | McM, once you finish 8-bit spelunking, have you considered making 8-bit Spelunky? :P |
| 21:47 | <@ErikMesoy> | Alek: http://www.pcgamer.com/2013/12/30/the-text-adventures-that-never-were-spelunky/ |
| 21:50 | <@Alek> | I said 8-bit, not monochrome. >_> |
| 21:59 | <@Alek> | ow, my eyes |
| 21:59 | | * Alek finished the article |
| 22:33 | <@celticminstrel> | It seems kinda unintuitive for stringstream.str(newString) to not clear the error states... |
| 22:35 | < froztbyte> | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lwFVlNytq0Q <3<3<3<3<3<3 |
| 22:35 | < froztbyte> | Revision 2014 |
| 22:35 | < froztbyte> | http://www.pouet.net/prod.php?which=62935 |
| 22:37 | <~Vornicus> | The best part of that fake java class name thing is about half the time I look at the right one and go "that can't possibly be it" |
| 22:40 | <@Tamber> | hee |
| 22:46 | <@gnolam> | froztbyte: ... and again, it's time to figure out where we have a link source in common. ;) |
| 22:48 | < froztbyte> | gnolam: haha |
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| --- Log closed Mon Apr 21 00:00:33 2014 |