| --- Log opened Fri Mar 28 00:00:40 2014 |
| 00:26 | | Derakon[AFK] is now known as Derakon |
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| 02:56 | < [R]> | <ping> â<âShazzâ>â ping: http://i.imgur.com/DrFFzea.png |
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| 04:57 | | * Vornicus pokes more at manufactoria, tries to remember if he ever found a nicer way to do Police |
| 05:21 | <~Vornicus> | It doesn't look like there really is one, aside from rearrangement. |
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| 10:03 | < AnnoDomini> | madness.jpg |
| 10:04 | < AnnoDomini> | I'm downloading a file via DCC from IRC to my shell account, then via SFTP to this terminal, where I'll use Dropbox to upload it to the cloud, from where it will reach my computer at home. |
| 10:06 | <&McMartin> | Behold the power of the butt |
| 10:07 | <@froztbyte> | I would've just base64 transferred it as IRC messages |
| 10:09 | < AnnoDomini> | notsureifserious.jpg |
| 10:18 | < Erik> | ah, clown computing |
| 10:18 | < Syk> | AnnoDomini: you know you can use the dropbox web access |
| 10:23 | < AnnoDomini> | You mean the Dropbox web interface? |
| 10:35 | < Syk> | AnnoDomini: yes |
| 10:38 | < AnnoDomini> | I'm using that. |
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| 10:51 | <@Azash> | AnnoDomini: Well, there are some cases where google, for example, has images as embedded base64 |
| 10:51 | <@Azash> | Leading to wonderful walls of text when some poor sap tries to paste the image link |
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| 10:56 | | Orthia is now known as Reivthia |
| 11:26 | <@Azash> | https://github.com/gnowxilef |
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| 12:03 | <@gnolam> | Azash: ? |
| 12:03 | <@Azash> | The picture |
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| 13:18 | <@RchrdB> | Azash, <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODdhAQABAIAAAP///////ywAAAAAAQABAAACAkQBADs="> |
| 13:18 | <@RchrdB> | data: URIs let you stuff images right into the bodies of HTML and CSS files, removing the need to make a separate second request for that image. |
| 13:36 | <@Azash> | Yeah, that's what I was talking about |
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| 13:51 | <@Thalass> | The weird thing is that nobody else is complaining about this problem, it seems. |
| 13:56 | <@Tarinaky> | RchrdB: I'm around for a bit if you still remember the shouting you wanted to give me |
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| 15:31 | <@Azash> | https://twitter.com/bloerwald/status/448415935926255618/photo/1 |
| 15:31 | | Turaiel[Offline] is now known as Turaiel |
| 15:35 | <@Azash> | Does anyone know good European providers of dedicated hosting? |
| 15:54 | | Turaiel is now known as Turaiel[Offline] |
| 15:57 | < simon> | Hetzner.de |
| 15:57 | <@Azash> | I have a VPS with them and haven't found them very reliable |
| 15:58 | < simon> | I tried their VPS and it basically exploded. |
| 15:58 | < simon> | I've had a dedicated Xeon for three years that's worked splendid. |
| 16:00 | < simon> | I'm upgrading to an EX60 this weekend. |
| 16:01 | <@Azash> | Hm |
| 16:01 | <@Azash> | I had noticed that a friend with a dedi has a lot less problems |
| 16:01 | <@Azash> | Alright, thanks |
| 16:06 | < simon> | I tried the â¬8/mo. Hetzner instead of a $20/mo. Linode for a low-intensity Drupal site, and basically its CPU would spike to a point of uselessness for no detectable reason (exact same software versions and source files). |
| 16:06 | <@RchrdB> | Tarinaky, oh hey there. |
| 16:06 | <@RchrdB> | Tarinaky, uh, the shouting was going to be just a quick overview of automata theory. |
| 16:07 | < simon> | I'd flip DNS back and forth, and every time the Hetzner got attention, half an hour would pass and it'd completely choke. my only takeaway is that VPSes are unpredictable. |
| 16:07 | <@RchrdB> | So, finite state automata let you match regular languages, right? |
| 16:07 | < simon> | I did some VPS benchmarking recently and further know that their memory speeds are horrible. |
| 16:07 | <@RchrdB> | A finite state machine has an input tape with some symbols on it, and it has one state variable, which can be in any of a finite set of states. |
| 16:07 | < simon> | RchrdB, yes. |
| 16:08 | < simon> | RchrdB, sorry, didn't notice the context :) |
| 16:08 | <@RchrdB> | simon, that's okay, you can correct me when I get it wrong |
| 16:08 | <@RchrdB> | At each step of the computation, the FSM selects a new state with a table lookup against the current state and the symbol on the current cell of the input tape. |
| 16:09 | <@RchrdB> | and one of the states is labelled "ACCEPT" and one of them is labelled "REJECT" |
| 16:09 | <@RchrdB> | and now you have regexes. So you can lex most programming languages, but you can't balance brackets with one of these things. |
| 16:10 | <@RchrdB> | Also you can simulate a FSM running over any input string in O(n) because it always does exactly one step of computation per symbol of input. |
| 16:10 | < Shiz> | isn't the idea that any X states are labeled accept, and the rest is reject? |
| 16:10 | <@RchrdB> | Shiz, doesn't matter. |
| 16:10 | <@RchrdB> | Yes, but the formalisms are equivalent. |
| 16:11 | < Shiz> | eh, you said 'one state' sepcifically |
| 16:11 | < Shiz> | :P |
| 16:11 | < simon> | RchrdB, although some regexes lead to an exponential size of the FSM. |
| 16:11 | <@RchrdB> | Doesn't matter, there's no difference between the formalisms that you end up with. |
| 16:12 | < simon> | RchrdB, and the other way around. |
| 16:13 | < Shiz> | (do FSMs have ε-transitions?) |
| 16:14 | <@RchrdB> | Tarinaky, so a push-down automaton is a FSM augmented with a stack. As well as a new state to jump into, you also generate (PUSH symbol) (POP) (nah). And you look up based on the current top-of-stack. |
| 16:14 | <@RchrdB> | Tarinaky, so a push-down automaton isn't anywhere near Turing-complete because it still can only advance the tape forwards once each step of computation, it can't loop. But it can match languages like balanced parentheses. |
| 16:14 | < simon> | Shiz, they can have. you have non-deterministic (NFAs) and deterministic (DFAs) ones, and the NFAs have ε-transitions. |
| 16:15 | < Shiz> | right |
| 16:15 | < simon> | Shiz, an NFA with ε-transitions is equivalent to some DFA without ones. there's straight-forward algorithms for converting them. |
| 16:15 | < Shiz> | I'm really only used to working with TMs |
| 16:15 | < Shiz> | I know |
| 16:15 | < simon> | TMs? |
| 16:15 | <@RchrdB> | Turing machines? |
| 16:15 | < Shiz> | turing machies |
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| 16:16 | < simon> | well, a modern-day PC is really an FSM. :) |
| 16:17 | < Shiz> | a tm, rather |
| 16:17 | < Shiz> | well |
| 16:17 | < Shiz> | i guess there isn't much difference |
| 16:17 | < Shiz> | except TMs can have unbounded memory |
| 16:17 | < Shiz> | which pcs don't have |
| 16:17 | <@RchrdB> | Tarinaky, there are some machines that are nicknamed "stack machines" which are Turing-complete, but they're actually Forth interpreters. A Forth interpreter has at least two stacks that it can juggle items between and it has a program written down somewhere separately. |
| 16:17 | <@Tarinaky> | I thought you could implement a loop with recursion using a stack? |
| 16:18 | <@RchrdB> | Tarinaky, once you have 2 infinite stacks and are allowed to loop, you're usually already Turing-complete because you can simulate being in the middle of an infinite tape by popping items off the left stack and pushing them onto the right stack to emulate moving left on an infinite tape. |
| 16:18 | <@Tarinaky> | I only just got back from a lecture. |
| 16:18 | <@Tarinaky> | I don't see why you need two stacks to have a loop. |
| 16:19 | <@RchrdB> | The fact that recursion and iteration are equivalent is a separate idea. |
| 16:19 | <@Tarinaky> | Or do you mean loop over the same input? |
| 16:19 | <@RchrdB> | A push-down automaton isn't allowed to recurse or loop, which is why they're not Turing-complete. They're only allowed to see each input symbol for exactly one step of their operation, then never allowed to go back to that symbol. |
| 16:19 | <@Tarinaky> | Why can't they recurse? |
| 16:20 | <@Tarinaky> | That's a dumb question but I can't think of a better way of phrasing it. |
| 16:20 | <@RchrdB> | Because their definition is that they get shown each input symbol on exactly one step of computation. |
| 16:20 | <@RchrdB> | This isn't any kind of result of their other properties, it's baked right into the definition. |
| 16:21 | <@Tarinaky> | Okay. I need to have a think about this, clearly. |
| 16:21 | <@RchrdB> | An FSM's definition includes the fact that it's shown one more symbol from the input at each step, and the steps run out when the input runs out. |
| 16:21 | <@RchrdB> | Identically, a PDA's definition includes the fact that it's shown one more symbol from the input at each step, and it's finished when the input runs out. |
| 16:22 | <@RchrdB> | Tarinaky, while you're thinking about parsers, please ignore entirely the aside about Forth interpreters. ⺠|
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| 19:15 | < simon> | RchrdB, you can always simulate more lookahead using a larger FSM, right? |
| 19:22 | <@Alek> | how do you get a larger Flying Spaghetti Monster? |
| 19:24 | <@ErikMesoy> | With glue. |
| 19:25 | <@Tamber> | Glue and sauce? |
| 19:25 | < simon> | using a Y-combinator |
| 19:26 | < simon> | Y FSM = FSM (Y FSM) |
| 19:26 | < simon> | meatballs all the way, as they say. |
| 19:36 | <@Namegduf> | simon: Yes. |
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| 21:36 | <@macdjord|packing> | RchrdB: You can have PDAs with epsilon transitions. They are still not TMs, though. |
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| 22:19 | <&ToxicFrog> | Oh god I feel ill |
| 22:19 | <&ToxicFrog> | cmd[k] = v:gsub([[']], [['"'"']]) |
| 22:20 | <&ToxicFrog> | Possibly I should be writing this in something with a proper execv() like python |
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| 22:56 | | * ToxicFrog stabs python list comprehensions |
| 22:58 | <@ErikMesoy> | [stab(item) for item in list] |
| 23:09 | | ErikMesoy is now known as ErikMesoy|sleep |
| 23:27 | | * Vornicus plays Manufactoria. Oh yay, comparing two numbers from right to left. fun fun silly willy. |
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| --- Log closed Sat Mar 29 00:00:55 2014 |