| --- Log opened Fri Feb 21 00:00:07 2014 |
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| 06:34 | < Harlow> | So does anyone know why WhatsApp sold for 16 billion dollars? I mean i must be missing something. |
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| 06:44 | <&McMartin> | Harlow: Wages generally are too low, so the capitalists literally have more money than they know what to do with. |
| 06:45 | < Harlow> | Lol, is this really your reasoning behind that type of a purchase? |
| 06:45 | < Harlow> | What've, good enough for me. lol |
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| 06:46 | <&McMartin> | I mean, I'm being slightly tongue-in-cheek, but only slightly |
| 06:46 | <&McMartin> | I can probably pretend to justify it more |
| 06:46 | <&McMartin> | But, well |
| 06:46 | <&McMartin> | I remember the late '90s |
| 06:46 | <&McMartin> | This counts as restrained. -_- |
| 06:46 | <&McMartin> | So I'll stick with "Congratulations, you have stupid amounts of money and have forgotten how much it is worth" |
| 06:47 | < Harlow> | Pretty damn accurate. |
| 06:48 | <&McMartin> | There's already a Things That Cost Less Than WhatsApp Tumblr, because of course there is |
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| 08:32 | <@Azash> | re. WhatsApp |
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| 08:33 | <@Azash> | Prediction: Behind the UI, it's moved to use Facebook servers and possibly linked to FB's XMPP to provide better ad targeting |
| 08:38 | <~Vornicus> | http://boingboing.net/2014/02/20/the-most-concise-explanation-y.html |
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| 19:23 | <@Alek> | node.js on android. |
| 19:23 | <@Alek> | raise a webserver on your smartphone. |
| 19:23 | <@Alek> | and a minecraft server. |
| 19:23 | <@Alek> | then get google glass. |
| 19:23 | <@Alek> | raise a server on that. |
| 19:24 | < ErikMesoy> | What are you talking about? |
| 19:24 | <@Alek> | loosely translating a quote. |
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| 19:56 | <@Azash> | The only thing node.js should make you raise is an exception |
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| 21:27 | <@Tarinaky> | Node node the enterprise node. |
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| 22:33 | <@Alek> | "Installation of VLC Player voids the warranty on speakers on Dell notebooks" wat |
| 22:34 | <@Tamber> | ISTR VLC lets you turn up the volume past 100%. Though if that's enough to destroy the speakers, that speaks (fnar) volumes (fnar, 2) about Dell's hardware quality. :p |
| 22:34 | <@Alek> | :P |
| 22:35 | <@Alek> | soon, just buying a computer will void the warranty. soon. |
| 22:35 | <@Namegduf> | "Interesting theory. Care to test it court?" |
| 22:35 | <@Namegduf> | Would be roughly my position if they tried to pull that. |
| 22:36 | <@Namegduf> | Warranty isn't optional, after all. |
| 22:36 | <@Alek> | depends on the product. |
| 22:37 | <@Alek> | there's a few that are caveat emptor. |
| 22:37 | <@Namegduf> | I was talking about Dell notebook warranties and don't really feel like playing along with contrarianism right now. |
| 22:38 | | * Alek nods. |
| 22:39 | < ErikMesoy> | Alek: Buy it in Norway. Here warranty is very strictly non-optional and set to be five years for a computer. |
| 22:39 | | * Alek applauds. |
| 22:39 | < ErikMesoy> | This causes no end of anguish to the manufacturers whenever people who are aware of it (which is few) try to invoke this (which is even rarer, because you don't want an identical replacement for a four year old computer in the first place if it's broken). |
| 22:40 | | * Alek prefers to build-his-own for his desktop, but that's good to know. |
| 22:40 | <&McMartin> | Oh, is it particularly "replace with identical parts" or is "depreciated refund" an option? |
| 22:41 | <&McMartin> | Or, um, I forget the name for it |
| 22:41 | <&McMartin> | "trade-in"? |
| 22:41 | < ErikMesoy> | McMartin: Lemme give some background to the explanation |
| 22:41 | <&McMartin> | "Here's a broken old thing and 10 bucks, give me a cutting-edge-of-obscelescence one" |
| 22:43 | < ErikMesoy> | Broadly speaking, devices in Norway are divided into two groups: "white wares" and "brown wares". The archetypical white ware is the dishwasher; the archetypical brown ware is the coffee machine. |
| 22:43 | <&McMartin> | OK, there isn't enough obviously different between those to help me, so can you dig into that more? |
| 22:43 | < ErikMesoy> | White wares are considered important things for the functioning of the house, and are required by law to come with a five year warranty. Brown wares are the more luxury items, and only required to come with a two year warranty. |
| 22:44 | <&McMartin> | Hee hee, OK, the joke about my confusion writes itself |
| 22:44 | <@Alek> | and computers are considered white wares? o_o |
| 22:44 | <@Alek> | that's... interesting. |
| 22:44 | < ErikMesoy> | By what's mostly accident of history, computers got lumped into white wares (there was very strong argument for placing them into brown wares due to the amount of fiddly components, varying function, etc). |
| 22:45 | <@Alek> | well, technically, soon there'll be computers in all wares. :P |
| 22:45 | <@Alek> | as well as in the house itself. |
| 22:45 | < ErikMesoy> | Apparently English has some similar terms, but they're very obscure: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Home_appliance "Major appliances, or White goods" |
| 22:45 | <&McMartin> | Embedded controllers I can see the argument easily |
| 22:45 | <@Alek> | there already are in most, yes. |
| 22:45 | <&McMartin> | But yeah, that's very funny since I've normally lived the College Student life in tiny apartments |
| 22:46 | <&McMartin> | "Coffee is mandatory; washing dishes mechanically instead of in a sink is luxury, right?" |
| 22:46 | <@Tamber> | hee |
| 22:46 | < ErikMesoy> | Yeah, this is a bit historically dependent. Even the names. :p |
| 22:46 | < ErikMesoy> | Dishwashers and refridgerators used to be more or less uniformly white, coffe machines and radios brown or blac. |
| 22:47 | | * McMartin nods |
| 22:47 | <@Alek> | interesting thing, though. in the US, I've seen more 5-year warranties on minor appliances than on computers. in fact, the average PC warranty I've seen is 1 year, 2 on high-end ones. 3 months for refurbs. you can buy more, but that costs extra and isn't from the manufacturer. |
| 22:47 | < ErikMesoy> | +k |
| 22:47 | < ErikMesoy> | Yes, radios are brown goods while computers are white goods in Norway. |
| 22:47 | < ErikMesoy> | Don't ask it to make sense. |
| 22:47 | <&McMartin> | Alek: I think in the US warranties are based more on how confident the manufacturer is |
| 22:47 | < ErikMesoy> | The system was created decades ago and incrementally updated and patched and is generally a mess of Coding By Exception. :p |
| 22:47 | | * Alek nods. |
| 22:47 | <&McMartin> | Except for public safety-style things |
| 22:48 | <&McMartin> | Where even the software version of "we don't warrant this actually does anything whatsoever, but some effort has been made to make it do the things it says on the box" |
| 22:48 | < ErikMesoy> | McMartin: That's led to some very interesting speculation among a few of my friends |
| 22:48 | <&McMartin> | doesn't hold |
| 22:49 | <&McMartin> | (finishing the sentence, not responding there) |
| 22:49 | <&McMartin> | But this is why Java, for instance, explicitly forbids you in the EULA from using it to control nuclear reactors |
| 22:49 | | * Alek snerks. |
| 22:50 | < ErikMesoy> | A lot of software and some computing devices are released with a kind of non-warranty like you describe, where the manufacturer disclaims all responsibility for the thing actually doing what it says, doing anything, or even working. :-p |
| 22:50 | <@Alek> | so, once miniature nuclear reactors for planes take off (snerk), it's a safe bet they won't be running Java? :P |
| 22:50 | <&McMartin> | No nuclear-powered Blu-Rays for you |
| 22:50 | <&McMartin> | The legalese in the US (which I *think* is shared across English-descended systems) is "no warranty of merchantability nor of fitness for a particular purpose" |
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| 22:51 | <&McMartin> | To be fair, after seeing what users get up to with software, the latter is a safe thing to disclaim, because their idea of a purpose is not going to be the same as the developers'~ |
| 22:51 | < ErikMesoy> | So sometimes with my friends, we've speculated on how this affected the course of software development history, compared to a counterfactual universe where there's serious warranty imposed by law (the way Norway imposes five-year warranties on computers and manufacturers generally find it easier to pay out than to actually make five-year computers). |
| 22:52 | <&McMartin> | My answer to that has been "no software would ever be released; there would just be hobby projects and in-house development" |
| 22:52 | < ErikMesoy> | School of thought one says that the lack of software warranty made software develop better and faster, because less getting tangled up with legalese, more time spent coding instead of lawyering. School of thought one says that the lack made software develop worse and slower, because it meant Microsoft could pump out shit for ages and never clean up its act. |
| 22:52 | < ErikMesoy> | *two |
| 22:52 | <&McMartin> | Yeah, I'm in the extreme of school one; I think it's a sine qua non |
| 22:53 | <@Alek> | six of one, half a dozen of the other. |
| 22:53 | < ErikMesoy> | I lean towards school one. |
| 22:54 | <@Alek> | from what I've seen, both are about equally likely, and it's a safe bet that both hold true. |
| 22:54 | <&McMartin> | I suppose in my case, it's because there is *no* amount of testing that I would consider sufficient to justify the kind of warranty that, say, my microwave hands. |
| 22:54 | <&McMartin> | *has |
| 22:54 | < AnnoDomini> | Software development is just about the only industry that's still functioning like invention did during the Victorian period. |
| 22:54 | <&McMartin> | Unless the warranty is for "if you run this program, on this OS, in this environment, with this configuration, on this set of hardware" |
| 22:55 | < ErikMesoy> | But school one requires an awareness that software is Very Special; it's dubious that most other markets would improve if everyone could sell whatever shit and snake oil they wanted and disclaim everything. |
| 22:55 | <@Alek> | some coders code better and better, some coders constantly pump out shit. Valve and EA, for example. |
| 22:55 | <&McMartin> | And if violating any of those things, which, in personal computing, would include ever attaching a USB device to the system, would void that warranty |
| 22:55 | <@Alek> | I think that's pretty much what Apple's heading for, McM |
| 22:56 | <&McMartin> | Well, there is a world where you can do this already |
| 22:56 | <&McMartin> | iospace has been working in it for years :D |
| 22:56 | <&McMartin> | *embedded* software is warrantable |
| 22:56 | <@Alek> | heh. |
| 22:56 | < ErikMesoy> | School two also has some interesting points stolen from Loper OS: there *has* been better software and better computers that worked in ways that it sounds crazy to demand today. |
| 22:56 | <&McMartin> | But if I'm MS and I'm writing a word processor, there is no way I can warrant that I will continue to work with whatever wack-ass driver someone else installs in the future. |
| 22:57 | <&McMartin> | That possibly hasn't even been written yet |
| 22:57 | < ErikMesoy> | For example: an OS with negligible boot time and no data loss on crashing. |
| 22:57 | < ErikMesoy> | Imagine that buying a windows machine gave you a warranty by law that the machine wasn't allowed to crash and lose your data. :p |
| 22:57 | <&McMartin> | I have a gauss cannon right here that is unimpressed with this claim. |
| 22:57 | < ErikMesoy> | Suddenly, microsoft starts getting very busy researching how to do this obscure technical wizardry. |
| 22:58 | <&McMartin> | If my hard drive goes farming it doesn't matter how good the OS is |
| 22:58 | < ErikMesoy> | McMartin: Internally crash was kinda implied here |
| 22:58 | <&McMartin> | Also, you're also outlawing commercial consumer Linux lappies~ |
| 22:58 | < ErikMesoy> | Welp, sucks to be both commercial and unstable, then. |
| 22:59 | <&McMartin> | Right |
| 22:59 | <&McMartin> | That's why I say it's sine qua non |
| 22:59 | <&McMartin> | I don't think that level of stability is possible given the consumer demands |
| 22:59 | <&McMartin> | Which means that some way of dodging the "commercial" part of this would evolve. |
| 23:00 | <&McMartin> | Most likely by marking everything as "experimental" forever |
| 23:00 | <&McMartin> | (This is also the OSS approach, ANAICT) |
| 23:00 | <&McMartin> | This is a paid preview of our experimental product, you can be part of our beta community, etc. |
| 23:01 | <@TheWatcher> | McM: I don't think that level of stability is possible, full stop. |
| 23:01 | <&McMartin> | TheWatcher: I will grant it for things like avionics. |
| 23:01 | <&McMartin> | But that's a completely different discipline, in effect |
| 23:01 | <&McMartin> | Shorter me: software is "very special" but it's very special not because of anything intrinsic to software, but intrinsic to software's use case. |
| 23:02 | <&McMartin> | Which is anarchic. |
| 23:02 | <&McMartin> | It would be like warranting a hammer such that everything you build with that hammer will work |
| 23:02 | <@TheWatcher> | It's a chaotic emergent system |
| 23:02 | | * Alek nods. |
| 23:02 | <&McMartin> | Software that doesn't have that use case is, in principle, warrantable. |
| 23:03 | <@Alek> | TW makes a good point. |
| 23:03 | <&McMartin> | All examples of that I can come up with are bespoke embedded systems. |
| 23:03 | <@TheWatcher> | Yeah |
| 23:03 | <&McMartin> | I am very alarmed at the anarchic world leaking into embedded systems like vehicular control systems. |
| 23:05 | <&McMartin> | Avionics and Big Data should have disciplines as divergent as watchmakers and furniture-makers. |
| 23:06 | <&McMartin> | It's also worth noting that when small software firms sell to gigantic megacorps the contracts generally look a whole lot like "we're selling you beta software but the support contract will see a lot of use and be very active" |
| 23:21 | <@iospace> | McMartin: ? |
| 23:21 | <&McMartin> | iospace: You did work in the embedded space |
| 23:21 | <@iospace> | yup! |
| 23:21 | <@iospace> | hope to get back into it too |
| 23:21 | <@iospace> | but now, I nap |
| 23:21 | <&McMartin> | That's all you were pinged for :) |
| 23:21 | <&McMartin> | As an example |
| 23:21 | <@iospace> | nigh tall |
| 23:21 | <@iospace> | *night all |
| 23:21 | <@iospace> | or well, cya all in a bit XD |
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| --- Log closed Sat Feb 22 00:00:22 2014 |