| --- Log opened Sun Jan 19 00:00:40 2014 |
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| 06:27 | <@jeroud> | XML is horrible. |
| 06:31 | <~Vornicus> | It is almost always not what you want to use. |
| 06:33 | < Harlow> | Well there is only XML and JSON right? |
| 06:34 | <~Vornicus> | For semi-static, structured data, JSON is the go-to thing; XML is a very distant third, after that thing that bittorrent uses. |
| 06:35 | <@jeroud> | YAML (a safe subset thereof, at least) works better for human-writable things. |
| 06:36 | <~Vornicus> | Okay, that makes XML a very distant fourth. |
| 06:36 | <~Vornicus> | What is unsafe in YAML? |
| 06:39 | <~Vornicus> | For things you're writing to a lot, you don't want a markup language in that sense; often, a plain text file is better |
| 06:40 | <@jeroud> | Vornicus: YAML has (ugly) syntax for serialising arbitrary objects. |
| 06:41 | <@jeroud> | Most YAML libraries default to deserialising this, which means yaml.load() can execute arbitrary code. |
| 06:42 | <@jeroud> | yaml.safe_load() doesn't. |
| 06:42 | <~Vornicus> | You say "arbitrary objects" -- what, with methods and everything? |
| 06:43 | <@jeroud> | Basically just constructor parameters, but still. |
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| 06:52 | <~Vornicus> | i see. |
| 06:54 | <@jeroud> | There was that infamous Rails security issue a while back where they used the YAML module to parse JSON unsafely. |
| 06:55 | <~Vornicus> | I seem to remember that one |
| 06:56 | <@jeroud> | In completely unrelated news, Google Code is second from the bottom on my list of preferred code hosting providers. |
| 06:56 | <~Vornicus> | that bad? |
| 06:56 | <@jeroud> | SourceForge at least has the excuse that it predates svn. |
| 06:56 | <@jeroud> | Vornicus: That bad. |
| 06:57 | <@jeroud> | I speak as someone looking at other people's code. |
| 06:58 | <@jeroud> | Github is at the top of the list because it makes a bunch of stuff easy and it encourages certain good behaviour. |
| 06:58 | <@jeroud> | Like having a useful README. |
| 06:59 | <@jeroud> | Bitbucket's not /too/ bad, but hg is really slow over a suboptimal network link. |
| 07:01 | <@jeroud> | (My clone of the pypy repo on Thursday took *six* *hours* and then broke. It didn't even leave a partial repo, so I'd've had to start again from scratch.) |
| 07:03 | <@jeroud> | (After the first half hour I was mostly just watching it for trainwreck value. I copied an old repo from another machine and just updated that, which I probably should have done in the first place.) |
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| 09:31 | < Xon> | Vornicus, YAML was made a technically a super-set of JSON. but YAML requires special handling of tabs-vs-spaces for the passed-JSON features so why the fuck bother |
| 09:31 | <~Vornicus> | I see |
| 09:33 | < Xon> | seriously, a modern text-based file format which differentiate between spaces vs tabs is /horrible/. language/code yes I can understand, but a serialization formation designed to be edited by people? Ugh. |
| 09:35 | < Xon> | (also, there can be 'fun' parsing JSON with a YAML parser due to YAML spec attempting to be a superset of JSON after the fact) |
| 09:54 | <@jeroud> | Xon: I'm pretty sure the JSON stuff in YAML is unambiguous. |
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| 09:55 | <@jeroud> | And tabs vs spaces is because of the indentation-delimited blocks. |
| 09:57 | <@Tamber> | Just because there's a reason for it, doesn't mean it's not horrible. :p |
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| 10:13 | < Xon> | jeroud, only after JSOPN had comments stripped from the spec |
| 10:14 | <~Vornicus> | That is something I miss from json |
| 10:15 | <@jeroud> | Comments are hard to serialise. |
| 10:16 | <@jeroud> | Anyway, YAML is human-writable and it can be human-readable if it's not generated badly. |
| 10:16 | <@jeroud> | Which makes it substantially better for configs and such than JSON. |
| 10:17 | <@jeroud> | I wouldn't use it as a wire serialisation format, though. |
| 10:22 | <@Namegduf> | I heard the comments were removed because people kept trying to use them to extend JSON in differing ways. |
| 10:22 | <@Namegduf> | It could have been incorrect, though. |
| 10:29 | < Syka> | i don't like comments in json |
| 10:29 | < Syka> | it's object notation |
| 10:29 | < Syka> | have better objects |
| 10:30 | <@jeroud> | My least favourite "feature" of JSON is the prohibition on trailing commas. |
| 10:34 | < Xon> | jeroud, that *is* anoying |
| 10:35 | <@jeroud> | There is no good reason for that at all. |
| 10:35 | <@Tamber> | Quite so. |
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| 10:38 | <@jeroud> | I suspect it's "our crappy JS parser doesn't like it, so let's forbid it in the spec". |
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| 23:55 | <&McMartin> | https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-Qy3O7ZcbP7A/UtsrYUQSl_I/AAAAAAAAFBk/np-Uus5TJ mI/w1062-h598-no/IMG_20140118_173150996.jpg |
| 23:55 | <~Vornicus> | nice |
| --- Log closed Mon Jan 20 00:00:44 2014 |