| --- Log opened Wed Dec 18 00:00:52 2013 |
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| 02:28 | < Shiz> | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qT90jZP58jM |
| 02:28 | < Shiz> | daily dose! |
| 02:31 | | Turaiel is now known as Turaiel[Offline] |
| 02:32 | <&McMartin> | Man. The newest thecodelesscode hits a little close to home~ |
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| 06:21 | < jeroud> | McMartin: I like it when they do that. |
| 06:22 | < jeroud> | I've become pretty good at writing code that matches the style of the code around it. |
| 06:49 | <&McMartin> | Yeah, me too |
| 06:49 | <&McMartin> | I'm also in the process of adding new material so that I might have less material overall in the near future. |
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| 11:39 | <@Tarinaky> | Wait... wut... |
| 11:41 | <@Tarinaky> | Oh. |
| 12:29 | <@Tarinaky> | Does anyone understand Gomry's Method? |
| 12:30 | <@Tarinaky> | For err, Linear Integer Programming Problems? |
| 12:31 | <@Tarinaky> | I... don't understand the Wikipedia page. |
| 12:59 | < RichyB> | So you want to solve a LIP problem. You solve the LP version first. The solution to the LP version might be all-integer-coefficients, in which case you're done. |
| 13:00 | < RichyB> | If it isn't, you add an extra constraint to the LP problem that will cut out the optimal LP solution and won't remove any points that aren't integers. |
| 13:00 | < RichyB> | http://www.ms.unimelb.edu.au/~moshe/620-362/gomory/ looks like a way easier explanation to follow |
| 13:02 | <@Tarinaky> | RichyB: I saw that. I had trouble following it :/ |
| 13:10 | <@Tarinaky> | I hate exams >.<; |
| 13:10 | < RichyB> | Tarinaky, which side is problematic, the how or the why? |
| 13:10 | <@Tarinaky> | I'm... strugling to grok how you divine the Gomry's constraint. |
| 13:10 | | * TheWatcher ...s, has one of Those Moments Of Clarity, finally sees how to do this properly |
| 13:10 | <@Tarinaky> | Also it doesn't help that I am having difficulty concentrating on anything due to the plague. |
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| 13:15 | <@Tarinaky> | Okay. I think I get it... maybe. |
| 13:16 | <@Tarinaky> | I need a shower, some asprin and a coffee. |
| 13:27 | < RichyB> | Tarinaky, okay, so the HOW of the Gomry's constraint is: |
| 13:29 | < RichyB> | Tarinaky, the simplex method gives you a table of equations like "1*x[1] + 0*x_0 + 2.25*slack[1] + -0.25*slack[2] = 2.25" |
| 13:30 | < RichyB> | take all of those numbers and split them into integers and positive fractions, like 1 â 1 + 0, 2.25 â 2 + 0.25, -0.25 â -1 + 0.75 |
| 13:31 | < RichyB> | 1*x[1] + 0*x[1] + 0*x[2] + 0*x[2] + 2*slack[1] + 0.25*slack[1] + -1*slack[2] + 0.75*slack[2] |
| 13:32 | <@Tarinaky> | Take the integer part to the LHS |
| 13:32 | < RichyB> | gather all of the integer parts on the left hand side of the equation first |
| 13:32 | <@Tarinaky> | Cross it out and change the statement to >= |
| 13:32 | < RichyB> | yyeup |
| 13:32 | < RichyB> | exactly |
| 13:32 | <@Tarinaky> | Which leaves you with a greater-than constraint on fractions which 'snips off' the portion of the feasible region containing the non-integer optimal solution |
| 13:32 | < RichyB> | *nodnod* |
| 13:33 | <@Tarinaky> | I'm struggling to find anything on google for the 'Method of Fictitious Costs' wrt Transport Problems. |
| 13:33 | <@Tarinaky> | To verify that a least-cost solution is optimal. |
| 13:33 | < RichyB> | No clue. |
| 13:34 | <@TheWatcher> | ... and, of course, the minute I work out exactly what needs doing, the fucking internet gateway in work falls over |
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| 14:35 | <@froztbyte> | haha |
| 14:35 | <@froztbyte> | yes |
| 14:35 | <@froztbyte> | that happened to me over the weekend on this other thing I was working on |
| 14:47 | <@Tarinaky> | Aaaand another part of my laptop breaks. |
| 14:58 | <@Tarinaky> | And the t is dodgy :/ |
| 14:58 | <@Tarinaky> | Another They Let Mate Math Met |
| 14:58 | <@Tarinaky> | Okay, nevermind. |
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| 15:25 | < RichyB> | Does anyone here understand Debian/dpkg/apt? I've got a custom repo, which has a signed Release file. There is *also* an option somewhere or other to have debhelper sign the individual debs as I build them. Is there any actual point to doing the latter, or is it just meant for if I'm, say, gathering debs from other people to put into my repo? |
| 15:27 | <@froztbyte> | RichyB: maintaining your own distro/buildset, signing organizational packages, that kind of thing |
| 15:28 | <@froztbyte> | "yes, this build of $companySoftware was actually signed by $company and is legit" |
| 15:28 | <@froztbyte> | presuming you have all your keys and stuff loaded in the right places |
| 15:31 | < RichyB> | It's confusing me because apt is perfectly happy to install stuff with *just* the Release file signed |
| 15:31 | < RichyB> | which is of course perfectly sensible since that file contains SHA256 hashes of files which in turn contain SHA256 hashes of the actual deb files |
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| 17:15 | <@gnolam> | http://www.cs.tau.ac.il/~tromer/acoustic/ |
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| 17:44 | <@froztbyte> | RichyB: because apt considers the repo as a trusted source |
| 17:44 | <@froztbyte> | RichyB: the per-file signing would be for a scenario where you release files without actually putting them in a repo |
| 17:45 | <@froztbyte> | you could probably find the full policy writeup |
| 17:45 | <@froztbyte> | I'm dead tired atm, think I'm getting sick :/ |
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| 17:59 | < RichyB> | froztbyte, yeah, the way that apt treats the repo as a trusted source makes perfect sense to me. |
| 18:01 | <@froztbyte> | well, not trusted |
| 18:01 | <@froztbyte> | you need to import the right keys for the trust |
| 18:01 | <@froztbyte> | but as a valid data channel, certainly |
| 18:02 | <@froztbyte> | that said, you could actually do apt over sftp:// if you felt like it :D |
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| 18:11 | < RichyB> | Okay, okay. The way that apt lets trustworthiness cascade through a series of hashes from the top-level Releases file all the way down to the debs, makes sense. |
| 18:12 | < RichyB> | This is one of the reasons why IMHO HTTPS is bullshit |
| 18:12 | < RichyB> | *HTTPS is bullshit for tamper-protection, not for secrecy |
| 18:12 | < RichyB> | protecting the transport from tampering is pointless when the endpoint could be tampered with |
| 18:12 | < RichyB> | protecting the *content* from tampering by signing it is much better |
| 18:13 | < RichyB> | bonus: if you don't care about secrecy, you can use cleartext transport and even things like transparent http proxies |
| 18:13 | < Syka> | er what |
| 18:13 | < Syka> | the content is protected from tampering |
| 18:13 | < RichyB> | No it isn't. |
| 18:14 | < Syka> | yes it is |
| 18:14 | < RichyB> | HTTPS does not protect content from being tampered with. |
| 18:14 | < RichyB> | HTTPS protects the *transport*, not the content. If the server is compromised and files modified there, HTTPS does not protect me from being served bad content. |
| 18:15 | < Syka> | ...that's because that's not HTTPS' job? |
| 18:15 | < RichyB> | An awful lot of the www has mistaken that for what HTTPS' job is. |
| 18:15 | < Syka> | that's because the server is not the threat |
| 18:15 | <&ToxicFrog> | RichyB: er. Who? |
| 18:16 | < Syka> | transport layer security is defending against the threat of content being snooped on or modified in transport |
| 18:16 | < RichyB> | The server *is* a threat if you want the end-user to be able to trust an application that is running in her browser. |
| 18:16 | < RichyB> | Client-side JS apps cannot trust servers that they're retrieving data from. |
| 18:17 | < Syka> | ...yes but, if the server is pwn'd, it's game over |
| 18:17 | < RichyB> | Poppycock. You can pwn an apt server and you won't take me over when I next run apt-get update. |
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| 18:17 | < Syka> | because there is no defence against that, because anything you put in, an attacker who has owned the box can spoof it |
| 18:17 | < RichyB> | ToxicFrog, also the assumption which is baked into web-browsers that content delivered via HTTP is suspect on a HTTPS page. |
| 18:18 | < Syka> | RichyB: I will if I have got the signing keys |
| 18:18 | < RichyB> | Syka, signing keys don't have to be present on the edge servers. |
| 18:19 | < RichyB> | ToxicFrog, which IMO reflects an assumption that anything coming in via HTTPS is "safe", ignoring the concept that evil people buy HTTPS certs too. |
| 18:19 | < RichyB> | Syka, e.g. a CDN like Akamai has edge servers with SSL certs with 400+ subjectAltNames on them. :) |
| 18:20 | < Syka> | that's because youre not trusting what the server gives you in an apt scenario |
| 18:20 | < RichyB> | That's supposed to be a *cache*. Instead, it's required to be a trusted object because the design is broken. |
| 18:21 | < RichyB> | If you compromise one of Akamai's edge servers (or any other CDN, they all have to do this for HTTPS-using customers), of which they have a lot globally distributed, right now you will get to compromise on the order of 400 sites. |
| 18:26 | < RichyB> | BTW, look up content-centric networking. The idea is really cool! It fits what people are actually using the internet for IRL much more closely than TCP does. |
| 18:30 | <&ToxicFrog> | RichyB: it's not suspect because it's HTTPS, it's suspect because it can leak information about the page you requested over HTTPS and are thus presumably interested in not having sniffed by everyone. |
| 18:30 | <&ToxicFrog> | Er, because it's HTTP on an HTTPS page. |
| 18:31 | < RichyB> | This is true. |
| 18:42 | < Azash> | http://i.imgur.com/rIgtShO.png |
| 18:55 | <@froztbyte> | RichyB: dash likes CCN a lot |
| 18:55 | <@froztbyte> | RichyB: but I guess that's where you heard of it |
| 18:55 | <@froztbyte> | (I still need to go read properly about it someday) |
| 18:56 | <@froztbyte> | RichyB: can you expand upon what you mean with the akamai remark? |
| 18:56 | <@froztbyte> | like, do you say it in the sense of attack surface in terms of what's on akamai's global edge, or some other sense? |
| 18:58 | <@froztbyte> | <Syka> because there is no defence against that, because anything you put in, an attacker who has owned the box can spoof it |
| 18:58 | <@froztbyte> | there is, actually |
| 18:59 | <@froztbyte> | but it becomes non-trivial to start implementing |
| 18:59 | <@froztbyte> | having content signatures is one of the mechanisms for doing this |
| 18:59 | <@froztbyte> | (and this is why you can have debian mirrors without having access to the keys) |
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| 20:04 | < Azash> | http://security-world.blogspot.fi/2013/12/security-dsa-2821-1-gnupg-security.htm l |
| 20:13 | <@gnolam> | Azash: [18:15:50] <gnolam> http://www.cs.tau.ac.il/~tromer/acoustic/ |
| 20:13 | < Azash> | Oh |
| 20:13 | < Azash> | Cheers |
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| 20:41 | | * McMartin completely misreads the headline "Google recalls melting Chromebook 11 power adapters, will resume sales" |
| 20:41 | <&McMartin> | "Oh man. Remember when we melted those power adapters? Good times. Wanna buy one?" |
| 20:41 | | * Alek snerks. |
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| 20:48 | < simon_> | what's the plural of UPS? |
| 20:48 | < simon_> | UPS'es? |
| 20:49 | <&McMartin> | That's how I'd say it |
| 20:49 | <&McMartin> | I'd write it without the apostrophe, probably. |
| 20:51 | < Syka> | I use UPSs |
| 20:52 | < simon_> | so UPSes. I know what I'd do in Danish :) |
| 20:52 | < simon_> | I was thinking of UPS'es or UPSes (and ABCs in case the last letter wasn't an S) |
| 20:52 | < simon_> | thanks! |
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| 20:53 | <&Derakon> | Continuing the saga of my boss requesting a printout of a complete directory listing of the repository... |
| 20:53 | <&Derakon> | He claimed that back in the old days when you made a directory, as part of that process you'd also write in a bit of text describing the purpose/contents of the directory (i.e. some kind of attached metadata). |
| 20:53 | <&Derakon> | Has anyone heard of a filesystem that worked that way? |
| 20:54 | <&Derakon> | I told him about readme files and he seemed to think this was a colossal step backwards. |
| 20:54 | <&McMartin> | He'd have to name one. |
| 20:54 | <&McMartin> | It's barely possible that CTSS, ITS, Multics, or TOPS-10 did this |
| 20:55 | <&McMartin> | In the mid-1960s, however, Bell Labs's experiments with a universal file abstraction bore some fruit and over the next fifty years it has gradually become entirely universal. |
| 20:55 | <&McMartin> | Locking in its hold around 1998 or so. |
| 20:55 | <&McMartin> | ... maybe 2001, once OS X was released and resource forks went away forever. |
| 20:56 | <&Derakon> | Heh. |
| 20:56 | <&Derakon> | Yeah, I honestly really didn't see the point of what he was asking for... |
| 20:56 | <&Derakon> | But oh well. |
| 20:57 | < simon_> | sounds like he just wanted to tell you that he once knew computers, too. :) |
| 20:58 | <&Derakon> | That's the thing, all of his "practical" knowledge (i.e. knowledge-about-using) of computers is 20 years out of date. |
| 20:58 | <&McMartin> | Possibly fifty~ |
| 20:58 | <&Derakon> | And he never sees the advantages of the new systems. |
| 20:58 | <&McMartin> | I was using computers with everything-is-a-file abstractions in the 1980s. |
| 20:58 | <&Derakon> | I don't think he really appreciates that I'm doing the job of at least 3-4 oldschool developers here, on my own~ |
| 21:00 | <@celticminstrel> | I wouldn't say resource forks went away forever with MacOS 10.0... |
| 21:02 | < AnnoDomini> | http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20131210/08174425520/norway-to-digitize-all-nor wegian-books-allowing-domestic-ip-addresses-to-read-all-them-irrespective-copyri ght-status.shtml |
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| 21:06 | <@Alek> | o_o |
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| 21:14 | | * ToxicFrog eyes the shit out of bash and/or gnome |
| 21:15 | <&ToxicFrog> | So I just spent 20 minutes troubleshooting an issue where I could log in to tty1 but not X |
| 21:15 | <&ToxicFrog> | Apparently the issue is: |
| 21:15 | <&ToxicFrog> | - my .bashrc sources a file that defines functions with hyphens in the name |
| 21:15 | <&Derakon> | Wut |
| 21:15 | <&ToxicFrog> | - if the 'posix' shellopt is set ($POSIXLY_CORRECT), this is not permitted(?) and causes the shell to exit(?!?!?!) |
| 21:16 | <&ToxicFrog> | - posix is unset by default, unless you invoke bash as /bin/sh, but |
| 21:16 | <&ToxicFrog> | - gnome-session starts bash with POSIXLY_CORRECT set, which cases it to die when it hits my .bashrc and kick me back to xdm |
| 21:17 | | * ToxicFrog gets around this for now by having his bashrc set +o posix at the start and restore it, if set, later |
| 21:17 | <&ToxicFrog> | (you can call functions with hyphens in them just fine in posix mode, you just can't define new ones) |
| 21:19 | <&ToxicFrog> | Derakon: which part are you whutting at? |
| 21:20 | <&Derakon> | The fact that hyphens are disallowed. |
| 21:21 | <&Derakon> | Or maybe that they're being used. |
| 21:21 | <&Derakon> | Or maybe the fact that this causes the shell to (silently?) exit. |
| 21:21 | <&ToxicFrog> | Not silently, it logs an error in .xsession-errors. |
| 21:21 | <&Derakon> | Instead of printing a warning and then ignoring the definition or something. |
| 21:21 | <&Derakon> | Well, that's something at least. |
| 21:21 | <&ToxicFrog> | But yeah, I'd expect it to do the usual bash thing of continuing blindly on. |
| 21:22 | <&ToxicFrog> | Also there's no indication in the error why that function name is disallowed, and of course running it from tty1 succeeds. |
| 21:22 | <&ToxicFrog> | I figured it out by logging the output of 'env' from both tty1 and X and then diffing the result. |
| 21:23 | <&ToxicFrog> | As for why it exits... |
| 21:23 | <&ToxicFrog> | "Function names must be valid shell names. That is, they may not contain characters other than letters, digits, and underscores, and may not start with a digit. Declaring a function with an invalid name causes a fatal syntax error in non-interactive shells." |
| 21:23 | <&ToxicFrog> | "Non-interactive shells exit if there is a syntax error in a script read with the . or source builtins, or in a string processed by the eval builtin." |
| 21:23 | <&ToxicFrog> | Those are two of the rules activated only in posix mode. |
| 21:24 | <&Derakon> | And the shell is considered non-interactive because it's just running your X session? |
| 21:24 | <&ToxicFrog> | Yes. |
| 21:25 | <&ToxicFrog> | An interactive shell, roughly speaking, is one started with -i, or one started with no arguments and connected to a terminal. |
| 21:25 | <&ToxicFrog> | This is neither. |
| 21:28 | <&McMartin> | I assume the hyphen bit is because otherwise it's mistaken for subtraction |
| 21:28 | <&McMartin> | I'm only used to hyphens working in LISPs, to be honest |
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| 21:34 | < Shiz> | http://www.cs.tau.ac.il/~tromer/acoustic/ |
| 21:35 | <&McMartin> | Pretty solid result, IMO |
| 21:35 | <@gnolam> | And that's the third time. :) |
| 21:35 | <&Derakon> | Has that article been getting linked here a lot? |
| 21:35 | <&ToxicFrog> | McMartin: the thing is, subtraction is only respected in bash inside $(()), like other mathematical operators |
| 21:36 | <&McMartin> | Derakon: Four times now if you count repeats. |
| 21:36 | <&ToxicFrog> | And it is fine (and, indeed, common) to have commands with hyphens in them backed by actual files on disk. |
| 21:36 | <&Derakon> | Righto. |
| 21:36 | < Shiz> | lol |
| 21:36 | <&ToxicFrog> | E.g. git-anything-at-all |
| 21:36 | <&McMartin> | But yes |
| 21:37 | <&McMartin> | "Oh hey guys we can crack 4096-bit GPG with a side-channel attack" is a pretty major result~ |
| 21:37 | | * Derakon vanishes for a bit. |
| 21:39 | <@celticminstrel> | I don't use hyphens in my git commands... |
| 21:39 | <&McMartin> | git whatever tends to forward to a command named git-whatever |
| 21:39 | <&McMartin> | https://groups.google.com/forum/#!msg/golang-dev/3qDvo2aXmMw/xgF7kA9CdngJ |
| 21:39 | < Ogredude> | ok that's frightening |
| 21:39 | <&McMartin> | "Congratulations, you've found three bugs: one in Go, one in the Plan 9 kernel, and one in the file server being used for /tmp." |
| 21:41 | | * AnnoDomini does not unnerstan. |
| 21:42 | <@gnolam> | One of the better CS labs I've had was cracking DES keys with an oscilloscope by measuring power consumption. |
| 21:42 | <&McMartin> | Sounds like that works on GPG too. |
| 21:43 | < Ogredude> | just goes to show, security is an illusion |
| 21:44 | | ErikMesoy is now known as ErikMesoy|sleep |
| 21:44 | <@gnolam> | Nah. It goes to show that implementing cryptography in practice is freakin' hard. |
| 21:45 | <&McMartin> | Security is as much an illusion as truth is. Don't make the same mistake postmodernists did. =P |
| 21:45 | <&ToxicFrog> | celticminstrel: 'git foo' under the hood is almost always invoking /usr/bin/git-foo |
| 21:45 | < ErikMesoy|sleep> | Abstractions (like computers) leak. |
| 21:45 | <@Tarinaky> | Isn't the abstraction in Cryptography 'math'? |
| 21:46 | <&McMartin> | And that abstracts over physical devices. |
| 21:46 | <&McMartin> | Which is where this attack lives~ |
| 21:46 | <@Tarinaky> | I just like the idea of math leaking. |
| 21:46 | < ErikMesoy|sleep> | The abstraction is "to math". |
| 21:46 | < Syka> | eww, the math is leaking lambdas everywhere |
| 21:46 | < ErikMesoy|sleep> | IMO. |
| 21:46 | < Shiz> | 'get these prime numbers off me D:' |
| 21:47 | < ErikMesoy|sleep> | I'm using "leaky" to indicate that the transition from physical device to math is not seamless. |
| 21:47 | | * Syka gets the mop |
| 21:47 | < Shiz> | anyway, math is only a tool for crypto |
| 21:47 | < Shiz> | crypto is not an abstraction over math |
| 21:47 | <@Tarinaky> | Crypto /is/ math. |
| 21:47 | <@Tarinaky> | Except when physically implemented, then you've just got a bunch of idiots reusing OTPs |
| 21:48 | <@celticminstrel> | OTPs? |
| 21:48 | < ErikMesoy|sleep> | One Time Pads. |
| 21:48 | <@Tarinaky> | One Time Pads |
| 21:48 | <@celticminstrel> | Ah right. |
| 21:48 | < ErikMesoy|sleep> | As the name suggests, they should not be reused. :P |
| 21:48 | < Shiz> | crypto is about hiding information |
| 21:49 | < Shiz> | math can help in hiding by information with several (so far) nontrivialy solvable issues like the factoring problem |
| 21:49 | <@Tarinaky> | OTP is, theoretically, uncrackable... There are known cases of cheating. |
| 21:50 | <@Tarinaky> | Shiz: I'm pretty certain even if N=NP or Quantum Computers were scalable tomorrow it'd still count as non-trivial. |
| 21:50 | < Shiz> | point is that math is a tool used by crypto |
| 21:51 | <@Tarinaky> | What is Information though? |
| 21:51 | <@Tarinaky> | The only definition I know is a Math/Stats one... |
| 21:51 | < Syka> | i think enigma was part of said cheating |
| 21:51 | < Syka> | they built a machine that could decrypt enigma, not one that could really break it, iirc |
| 21:51 | <@Tarinaky> | I don't know if you can really talk about Information in a non-maths/intuitive/physical way. |
| 21:52 | < Syka> | and they relied on HUMINT to get the daily codes |
| 21:52 | <@Tarinaky> | Syka: I don't think Enigma was strictly a OTP. |
| 21:52 | <~Vornicus> | no, it was a daily pad. |
| 21:52 | <@Tarinaky> | I was thinking of later, during the cold war. |
| 21:52 | <@celticminstrel> | Cheating? |
| 21:52 | <@Tarinaky> | Things like supplying identical OTP pads to the other side. |
| 21:52 | <&McMartin> | IIRC, Enigma had PFS but then they broke *one* code |
| 21:52 | <~Vornicus> | If you had enough machines and a way to examine their output you could probably tell which pad they were using |
| 21:53 | <@Tarinaky> | Adding deliberate biases to RNGs |
| 21:53 | <&McMartin> | And from that you could get the broadcasts that were the next set of rotor settings |
| 21:53 | <~Vornicus> | pfs? |
| 21:53 | <&McMartin> | Perfect Forward Secrecy |
| 21:54 | < Syka> | yeah |
| 21:54 | < Syka> | enigma was a OTP |
| 21:54 | < Syka> | it came down to being able to decode it |
| 21:54 | < Syka> | in force |
| 21:54 | <&McMartin> | Hrm |
| 21:54 | < Syka> | which is what Bletchley did |
| 21:54 | <@Tarinaky> | You can't brute force OTP |
| 21:54 | < Syka> | they, IIRC, would feed it shitloads of codes |
| 21:54 | <&McMartin> | I'm not sure I accept it's truly a OTP in the normal sense, because the rotors existed. |
| 21:54 | <@Tarinaky> | That's the point. That's why it's uncrackable. |
| 21:54 | < Syka> | Tarinaky: you can if you have faulty operators! |
| 21:55 | < Syka> | Tarinaky: they relied on the Germans being shit at it |
| 21:55 | <@Tarinaky> | Syka: That's not brute force. |
| 21:55 | <~Vornicus> | This isn't otp |
| 21:55 | <~Vornicus> | this is a daily pad. |
| 21:55 | <&McMartin> | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enigma_machine |
| 21:55 | <&McMartin> | Enigma was a rotor cipher |
| 21:55 | < Syka> | from the wikipedia: "Though Enigma had some cryptographic weaknesses, in practice it was German procedural flaws, operator mistakes, laziness, failure to systematically introduce changes in encipherment procedures, and Allied capture of key tables and hardware that, during the war, enabled Allied cryptologists to succeed." |
| 21:55 | <~Vornicus> | Every message from every machine is encrypted with the same key, all day |
| 21:55 | <@gnolam> | Syka: key != OTP. |
| 21:55 | < Syka> | Vornicus: daily key, then |
| 21:56 | <@Tarinaky> | It also helped that Nazi intelligence was being run out of London. |
| 21:56 | < Syka> | the point being that you use the key in one instance (the day) |
| 21:56 | < Shiz> | maybe they just listened to its mechanical signals |
| 21:57 | < Shiz> | :) |
| 21:57 | <@Tarinaky> | By which I mean made up of nothing except double-agents. |
| 21:58 | <&McMartin> | How did they sort that out? Were German spy records declassified? |
| 21:58 | <@gnolam> | Syka: still nothing to do with OTP. |
| 21:58 | <@gnolam> | +has |
| 21:59 | <@Tarinaky> | The British records are declassified. Every agent sent to England was either a double agent, had a handler who was a double agent or was otherwise 'fed' information. |
| 22:00 | <&McMartin> | Tarinaky: Right, but in order to get the conclusion "Double Cross caught them all", you need the list of every agent sent to England, not the list of everyone they caught. |
| 22:01 | <@gnolam> | There are two important properties to an OTP - the first is the one-time use, the second is len(key) >= len(message). |
| 22:02 | <@Tarinaky> | McMartin: I imagine that would have been an easy feat to accomplish at the end of the war. |
| 22:02 | <@Tarinaky> | They did lose. |
| 22:03 | <@Tarinaky> | Shopping list of things to acquire at all of Berlin: Military Intelligence, Rocket Scientists... |
| 22:03 | <@Tarinaky> | *fall |
| 22:04 | <&Derakon> | Just because that knowledge existed at one time doesn't mean it wasn't destroyed. |
| 22:04 | <@Tarinaky> | True enough. |
| 22:04 | <&Derakon> | "List of spies" is among the items I'd want to shred/burn when my enemy's armies are marching into my city. |
| 22:04 | <@Tarinaky> | Fair point, fair point. |
| 22:05 | < Syka> | 'list of spies' is really something you should have a spy get for you! |
| 22:05 | <@gnolam> | "Location of the secret moon base" is first on the list though.~ |
| 22:05 | < Syka> | MOON NAZIS |
| 22:05 | <@Tarinaky> | ("What is it that has put America at the forfront of the space race? Why, good old American know-how, as provided by good old Americans like Dr Werner von Braun.") |
| 22:06 | <&McMartin> | Ah, Project Paperclip |
| 22:06 | <@gnolam> | "Our Germans are better than their Germans" |
| 22:07 | < AnnoDomini> | Not to mention that USA was heavily German by the time the war started. |
| 22:08 | <&McMartin> | And by "the war" here, we mean the American Civil War |
| 22:08 | < AnnoDomini> | Any war involving the US! |
| 22:08 | | * McMartin has heard that 19th-century German primary schools are one of the reasons for the old American stereotype of the Polish as fools |
| 22:08 | <&McMartin> | AnnoDomini: Mmm, not really war of 1812 |
| 22:09 | <&McMartin> | IIRC the giant migration wave was mid-19th century |
| 22:09 | < AnnoDomini> | Yeah, yeah, I'm joking with that one. |
| 22:09 | < AnnoDomini> | AFAIK, USA was a little bit Dutch when they rebelled. |
| 22:09 | <&Derakon> | USA was a little bit everything. |
| 22:09 | < AnnoDomini> | Yes. |
| 22:10 | <&McMartin> | There was clearly enough Germanic influence that in throwing off the Foul English German made a showing in a race to become the national language. |
| 22:10 | <&McMartin> | (It didn't because, I mean, come on) |
| 22:10 | < AnnoDomini> | IIRC, that was whether to bother with German as a national language. |
| 22:10 | < AnnoDomini> | USA does not have any official national languages to this date. |
| 22:11 | <&McMartin> | And rightly so |
| 22:11 | <&McMartin> | (We'd need at least three) |
| 22:11 | < AnnoDomini> | And? There are places like that. |
| 22:11 | <&Derakon> | And one of them being Spanish would give about 25% of our population aneurisms. |
| 22:11 | <~Vornicus> | I'm in one of the largest hispanic communities in the US and the voting station signs are in english, spanish, and tagalog |
| 22:12 | < AnnoDomini> | Norway has two official languages, both Norwegian. (:P) |
| 22:13 | <@Tarinaky> | Language is politicised far too much. |
| 22:13 | < AnnoDomini> | Everything is politicized too much. |
| 22:13 | <@Namegduf> | Official languages are how you can tell if people are suffering from crippling insecurity. |
| 22:14 | <@Namegduf> | One of the ways, anyway. |
| 22:14 | <@Namegduf> | It is a pointless hat. |
| 22:14 | <&McMartin> | A lot of voting materials around here are in about 12 languages. |
| 22:14 | < Syka> | um |
| 22:14 | < Syka> | official languages are for legal canon |
| 22:14 | < Syka> | but whatever~ |
| 22:14 | <@Namegduf> | Pretty sure they're not necessary for that. |
| 22:14 | < Syka> | they're not, but that's what they're for |
| 22:15 | <@Namegduf> | They really aren't "for" that in any particular sense. |
| 22:15 | <@Tarinaky> | Well, they're necessary if you want to codify a set of languages in which government services will be offered. |
| 22:15 | <&McMartin> | Er |
| 22:15 | <&McMartin> | Sure they are |
| 22:15 | <&McMartin> | For what Tarinaky said~ |
| 22:15 | <@Namegduf> | They're "for" making the people crying for them who are, you will note, not lawyers, shut up |
| 22:15 | <@Tarinaky> | Which is fine and all except for the implication that if you don't speak any of those languages you're hosed. |
| 22:15 | < AnnoDomini> | You ARE hosed if you don't. |
| 22:15 | <&McMartin> | As opposed to the unofficial case where if you know some language you *might or might not* be hosed and can't tell until you check |
| 22:16 | <&McMartin> | (More formally: Having an official set of working languages is not a sign of xenophobia) |
| 22:16 | < AnnoDomini> | (Yes.) |
| 22:16 | <@Namegduf> | It doesn't *imply*. |
| 22:16 | < Syka> | from the .za constitution |
| 22:16 | < Syka> | "The national government and provincial governments may use any particular official languages for the purposes of government" |
| 22:16 | <@Namegduf> | It is a *sign*, however, because there's a correlation and that's how signs work |
| 22:17 | <&McMartin> | Syka: ... oof. OK, that's a new one on me. |
| 22:17 | < Syka> | Namegduf: so you're saying that .za is xenophobic because they have official languages? |
| 22:17 | <&McMartin> | I'm more used to "the government has to make *all* the official languages available" |
| 22:17 | < AnnoDomini> | Namegduf: You're suggesting that almost every civilized nation-state (excepting weird places like the US) is xenophobic. |
| 22:17 | < AnnoDomini> | Or aren't you? |
| 22:17 | < Syka> | even though the constitution specifies no less than 11 |
| 22:17 | <@Namegduf> | http://thefreedictionary.com/sign |
| 22:18 | < Syka> | and that it is codified in the constitution that the official languages are there to promote the use of them |
| 22:18 | < Syka> | "Recognising the historically diminished use and status of the indigenous languages of our people, the state must take practical and positive measures to elevate the status and advance the use of these languages." |
| 22:18 | <&McMartin> | Syka: I was going tos ay "That appears to contradict your earlier quote" but I can't tell which part I misread |
| 22:18 | <&McMartin> | And my compile is done so I have to get back to work, so no more lightsaber chair fighting for me |
| 22:18 | < Syka> | here's the source: http://www.constitutionalcourt.org.za/site/constitution/english-web/ch1.html |
| 22:19 | < Syka> | first quote was 3(a), second was 2 |
| 22:19 | <@Namegduf> | More formally, "is evidence of", as opposed to "is uncorrelated with" and "is evidence against". |
| 22:19 | <@Namegduf> | Which are the only three possibilities |
| 22:19 | <&McMartin> | Yeah, it's the "any particular" part that soudns like they get to blow off people who only speak *the other* official languages. |
| 22:19 | <&McMartin> | Which is deeply bizarre and doesn't sound like a correct reading |
| 22:19 | < Syka> | also, re: legal canon |
| 22:20 | <@Namegduf> | Yeah, "may use" doesn't seem useful here |
| 22:20 | < Syka> | it means that you can legally use those languages for dealing with the government |
| 22:20 | < Syka> | for example, in .za's case, they can use a native language for dealing with the govt |
| 22:20 | < Syka> | and the govt *have* to accept it |
| 22:20 | <&McMartin> | Yeah |
| 22:20 | <&McMartin> | Section 3a sounds like that is backwards |
| 22:20 | <&McMartin> | It should be "citizen can know any; government must know all" |
| 22:20 | <@Namegduf> | Yes. |
| 22:20 | <&McMartin> | Clearly from 2 this is the intent |
| 22:20 | < Syka> | let me quote it fully |
| 22:20 | < Syka> | "The national government and provincial governments may use any particular official languages for the purposes of government, taking into account usage, practicality, expense, regional circumstances and the balance of the needs and preferences of the population as a whole or in the province concerned; but the national government and each provincial government must use at least two official ... |
| 22:21 | < Syka> | ... languages." |
| 22:21 | < Syka> | i should have put "..." at the end really |
| 22:21 | <&McMartin> | Ah, OK |
| 22:21 | <&McMartin> | Hrm |
| 22:21 | < Syka> | it's for their use |
| 22:21 | < Syka> | eg. they publish information |
| 22:21 | <&McMartin> | That is "how do you administrate a large area with no linguistic conformity"~ |
| 22:21 | <@Namegduf> | Okay, so it does not in fact establish that you can talk to the government using any official language. |
| 22:21 | <@Namegduf> | Instead it establishes that if you know at least 11 you can do so. |
| 22:22 | <&McMartin> | If you know at least 10. |
| 22:22 | <@Namegduf> | Oh, yes, it specifies 11, not 12 |
| 22:22 | < Syka> | wat? |
| 22:22 | <&McMartin> | However, I *strongly* suspect in practice that this is "Afrikaans works everywhere, and whatever the local language that is mutually unintelligible with the other 9 is" |
| 22:22 | <@Namegduf> | At least 10 is correct |
| 22:23 | < Syka> | I think it's a case of practicality |
| 22:23 | <@Namegduf> | Probably. |
| 22:23 | <@Namegduf> | My point is that here the official language guarantee there isn't actually buying you anything. |
| 22:23 | < Syka> | eg. a south govt doesnt need to speak a northern local language |
| 22:23 | <@Namegduf> | You're relying on non-guaranteed de-facto conditions anyway. |
| 22:23 | < Syka> | 2(b): "Municipalities must take into account the language usage and preferences of their residents." |
| 22:24 | <&McMartin> | In practice, in the US, it's "English and Spanish works everywhere, and French, Filipino, and Cantonese will work depending on region" |
| 22:24 | <&McMartin> | (I assume official documents use Filipino rather than Tagalog specifically, but I do not actually know this) |
| 22:24 | <@Namegduf> | In the UK, English works and I have no idea what else would. Welsh should work in Wales. |
| 22:24 | <@Namegduf> | Courts hire translators. |
| 22:25 | <&McMartin> | Namegduf: Bear in mind that the US has more native Spanish speakers than Spain does. |
| 22:25 | <@Namegduf> | McMartin: You know as well as I do that that is a morally wrong sentence. |
| 22:25 | <@Namegduf> | McMartin: But yes the US does also have a reasonably high density of Spanish speakers. |
| 22:25 | <&McMartin> | ... no, you're going to have to unpack that. |
| 22:25 | <@Namegduf> | McMartin: Density is what matters rather than count, and the US is *huge*. |
| 22:26 | <@Namegduf> | McMartin: *China* might have more <foo> speakers than wherever the language <foo> comes from. |
| 22:26 | < Syka> | US is 350M people, Spain is 50M people |
| 22:26 | <@Namegduf> | The US does however also have a fairly high density of Spanish speakers. |
| 22:26 | < Syka> | so 1/7th of the US needs to speak Spanish to have more than Spain does, assuming everyone in Spain speaks Spanish |
| 22:27 | <&McMartin> | And it's more like 1/5th. |
| 22:27 | <@Namegduf> | That's not that high, given it allowed for as a second language. |
| 22:27 | | * AnnoDomini thinks that it's very practical and efficient to institute a single official language, teach it in public schools, and thereafter use it exclusively in governance. A lot of European states did that in the past centuries to get rid of the huge jumble of dialects their territories encompassed. |
| 22:27 | <@Namegduf> | Spanish is one of the big high school languages. |
| 22:28 | <@Namegduf> | It is, but in *practice* it tends to happen either: |
| 22:28 | <&McMartin> | AnnoDomini: This happened less in the New World, and I'm not sure why |
| 22:28 | <&McMartin> | And then Greek had it happen in reverse, which is even weirder. |
| 22:28 | <@Namegduf> | A) Because someone's pointless dialect is at risk of going extinct. See: Wales |
| 22:28 | <@Namegduf> | B) Because people are feeling the need to assert their nationalist pride. |
| 22:28 | <@Namegduf> | Politics does things for stupid reasons even if they're good things. |
| 22:29 | <&McMartin> | I would rephrase B as "because someone else's pointless dialect *isn't* at risk of going extinct" |
| 22:29 | <@Namegduf> | Haha. |
| 22:29 | < Syka> | man, I'd like to see them try and put an official language in au |
| 22:29 | <@Namegduf> | The calls in the US right now seem to mostly come from the "In America, we speak American!" crowd. |
| 22:29 | < Syka> | since there are literally 300 or so aboriginal languages |
| 22:30 | < Syka> | most of which mix, and most of which are completely useless |
| 22:30 | <@Namegduf> | Rather than from a reasonable assessment of the efficiency gains in establishing a single shared language. |
| 22:30 | <&McMartin> | Namegduf: Yes, because they've noticed that 20% thing and it scares the ever-living piss out of them. |
| 22:30 | < AnnoDomini> | If the locals want to have their own silly dialect, they can use their assigned part of the budget to teach it alongside the national language. It's sort of what Norway does. |
| 22:30 | <@Namegduf> | McMartin: Thus, "because they're feeling insecure" |
| 22:30 | < Syka> | and of which people get rather annoyed about the languages going extinct |
| 22:30 | <&McMartin> | Namegduf: That does appear relatively unique to the US, though. |
| 22:30 | < Syka> | it is interesting seeing someone speak it, and have to mix in English words for certain concepts |
| 22:31 | < Syka> | like, in the local one, there is apparently no word for "idea" |
| 22:31 | <@Reiv> | Syka: NZ has three national languages: English, Maori, and NZ Sign Language. |
| 22:31 | < Syka> | NZ Sign Language? |
| 22:31 | < Syka> | is that what you call rugby these days? :P |
| 22:31 | <@Namegduf> | McMartin: I haven't seen any other places with major campaigns to institute a national language that currently lack one. |
| 22:31 | <@Reiv> | It should be noted to Namegduf that it was neither going extinct nor a matter of nationalism. :p |
| 22:32 | < Syka> | also, semi related |
| 22:32 | < Syka> | Maori chants are scary as fuck |
| 22:32 | <&McMartin> | Reiv: Is NZSL related to British and/or American Sign Language or is it totally distinct? |
| 22:32 | <@Reiv> | However, NZ law enshrines that official languages may be used in official proceedings, interpreters must be provided, etc |
| 22:32 | <&McMartin> | (AIUI, ASL is closer to French than British signs) |
| 22:32 | < Syka> | seriously, the All Blacks doing it is terrifying |
| 22:32 | <@Reiv> | McMartin: I'm not sure, tbh |
| 22:33 | | * Syka makes some joke about NZSL having an accent |
| 22:33 | < Syka> | (can sign language have an accent?) |
| 22:34 | <@Reiv> | "New Zealand Sign Language has its roots in British Sign Language (BSL), and may be technically considered a dialect of British, Australian and New Zealand Sign Language (BANZSL). There are 62.5% similarities found in British Sign Language and NZSL, compared with 33% of NZSL signs found in American Sign Language.[2]" |
| 22:34 | <@Reiv> | I guess it does have an accent after all! |
| 22:34 | < Syka> | haha |
| 22:35 | < Syka> | i am just imagining a NZSL speaker going to the US |
| 22:35 | < Syka> | and the americans going "what the fuck is this guy on about" |
| 22:35 | <&McMartin> | Yeah, ASL is Seriously Wildly Different |
| 22:35 | <&McMartin> | The grammar's all different too |
| 22:36 | <@Reiv> | It uses the same two-handed manual alphabet as BSL (British Sign Language) and Auslan (Australian Sign Language). It uses more lip-patterns in conjunction with hand and facial movement to cue signs than BSL, reflecting New Zealand's history of oralist education of deaf people. Its vocabulary includes MÄori concepts such as marae and tangi, and signs for New Zealand placenames. (E.g. Rotorua - mudpools, Wellington - windy breeze, Auckland - Sky |
| 22:36 | < Syka> | similar to how Americans react if you give them anything said by an Australian/New Zealander |
| 22:36 | <@Reiv> | So we use more lip movements than the british stuff, so I guess that qualifies as 'accent' |
| 22:36 | <&McMartin> | Depends |
| 22:36 | < Syka> | "Why do you keep saying you can't?" |
| 22:36 | | * Syka runs |
| 22:36 | <&McMartin> | Are we talking said by the Croc Hunter, or are we talking, like, Miranda Otto |
| 22:36 | < Syka> | (joke warning: may only be understood by Australians) |
| 22:37 | < Syka> | McMartin: miranda who |
| 22:37 | <&McMartin> | Australian actress. Played Eowyn in the LOTR movies. |
| 22:37 | < Syka> | oh |
| 22:37 | <@Reiv> | Syka: Yeah, even I don't get that one, and I'm picturing the aussie accent in the process |
| 22:37 | <&McMartin> | Has what I understand to be the "High Australian" accent that as an ignorant Yankee I cannot distinguish from Educated UK. |
| 22:38 | < Syka> | Reiv: say "caaaaarnt" in your head, but with a really strong Australian accent |
| 22:38 | < Syka> | (spoiler: the word begins with 'cu' :D" |
| 22:38 | < Syka> | )* |
| 22:38 | < Syka> | McMartin: ...High Australian? |
| 22:39 | < Syka> | that is something I have not heard of |
| 22:39 | < Syka> | she's from brisbane, huh |
| 22:39 | < Syka> | that's generally where you start getting Crocodile Hunter sounding from |
| 22:39 | < Syka> | eg. "Cairns" "Cayrrrns" |
| 22:39 | < Syka> | "Townsville" -> "Tawnsvil" |
| 22:40 | <&McMartin> | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Variation_in_Australian_English |
| 22:40 | < Syka> | actually, it's less an accent, and more a "drawl" |
| 22:40 | <&McMartin> | Sorry, "cultivated Australian" |
| 22:40 | <&McMartin> | Strine is listed as "Broad" |
| 22:41 | <&McMartin> | ... OK, I actually can't identify General Australian either as being particularly foreign sounding, if that's what Eric Bana and Hugh Jackman are speaking. |
| 22:41 | <@Namegduf> | Now I'm imagining high elven as being spoken like that |
| 22:41 | <@Reiv> | Syka: ... ah, I was totally misreading it then |
| 22:41 | <@Namegduf> | Just sort of a drawl version of a normal accent |
| 22:42 | < Syka> | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_Australian_English haha what |
| 22:43 | <&McMartin> | Careful there :D |
| 22:43 | <&McMartin> | Last time I did that with California English ("Nobody does this") I got burned by doing those things while complaining about it |
| 22:44 | < Syka> | I have a special english |
| 22:44 | <&McMartin> | (In particular, "kin" and "king" getting different vowel sounds) |
| 22:44 | < Syka> | apparently I speak more eastern au english |
| 22:44 | < Syka> | since I say fear without moving my jaw |
| 22:44 | < Syka> | wait |
| 22:44 | < Syka> | no |
| 22:44 | < Syka> | nevermind, I do say it fia |
| 23:05 | <&ToxicFrog> | McMartin: this reminds me, symbol and I determined experimentally the other night that I use the same phoneme I use for 'python' (or a related phoneme with a different consonant) in some other words. |
| 23:05 | <&ToxicFrog> | I can't remember which now, though. |
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| 23:11 | <~Vornicus> | Myth, heath? |
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| 23:12 | <&ToxicFrog> | Vornicus: the difference is in the py, not the th. |
| 23:13 | <&Derakon> | Uh, like "pie"? |
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| 23:15 | <~Vornicus> | TF: both of those have the same th sound, and different vowel sounds... |
| 23:16 | <&ToxicFrog> | Derakon: no. Py has three phnoemes for me; "pie" (pyromania), "pee" (copy), and "py" (python) |
| 23:17 | <&ToxicFrog> | My partners inform me that the latter of those does not actually exist in english. |
| 23:17 | <&Derakon> | Yeah, I pronounce "python" like "pie thon". |
| 23:17 | <&ToxicFrog> | (this came up a while ago elsechannel when I commented to McM that it's interesting that pypy (pie-pie) and python (py-thon) have different phonemes. The response was "er what") |
| 23:17 | <&Derakon> | As in, the pie of the gender-nonspecific third-person entity over there. |
| 23:18 | < Syka> | python is pie-fon here |
| 23:18 | <&ToxicFrog> | (I assumed it was regional and commented on it to symbol when I got home) |
| 23:18 | < Syka> | and pypy AND pypi are both prounounced pie-pie for me |
| 23:18 | < Syka> | even though pypi is pie-pee or pippy |
| 23:19 | <~Vornicus> | PIPE |
| 23:19 | <~Vornicus> | 19 o'clock and all is pipe. |
| 23:19 | <~Vornicus> | ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_CPiR6d0gm8 ) |
| 23:21 | < Shiz> | I pronounce PyPI as Pie-Pee-I |
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| 23:23 | <&ToxicFrog> | "pie-pee", I think. Or "pipey" |
| 23:23 | <&ToxicFrog> | not the same phoneme as 'python' |
| 23:23 | <&ToxicFrog> | I wish I could remember what the other word is now. |
| 23:32 | <@Reiv> | Toxicfrog: "Paithon"? |
| 23:33 | <@Reiv> | Here Python would have the same phenome as pyromania, ableit with perhaps a slightly harder stress on the vowel. |
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| --- Log closed Thu Dec 19 00:00:08 2013 |