| --- Log opened Sun Nov 17 00:00:30 2013 |
| --- Day changed Sun Nov 17 2013 |
| 00:00 | < JustBob> | Heh. |
| 00:00 | < JustBob> | Well, okay. If you're going crossplatform, then yeah, I can see LaTeX as the superior product. |
| 00:00 | < JustBob> | However, since I live in an MS world, well... |
| 00:01 | < JustBob> | If you ain't got MS Office, you're fucked up and you need to get it. |
| 00:21 | | * TheWatcher applies quite monumental amounts of hate to DST |
| 00:22 | <@TheWatcher> | I should not need to deal with cross-fucking-timezone shenanigans within what should be a single fucking timezone, damnit. |
| 00:23 | <@celticminstrel> | I'm pretty sure other programs can read and write word files. |
| 00:23 | <@celticminstrel> | So, most of the time you should be able to do without Office just fine. |
| 00:24 | <@TheWatcher> | Ohgods |
| 00:26 | <&ToxicFrog> | JustBob: yeah, I generally work in a "we don't care what you use to write it, but we want a PDF" environment |
| 00:27 | <&ToxicFrog> | Since I don't need to worry about generating files that a word processor can edit, I am thus free to use something that is easier to use, faster, and gives better results |
| 00:27 | <&ToxicFrog> | Even if I were entirely singleplatform I would use LaTeX because fuck word processors, in hell, forever. |
| 00:27 | <@TheWatcher> | celticminstrel: sure, provided that you never, ever, actually have to send those files to someone who is actually using office, or deal with files produced by a real copy of office. Because if you do, you may as well shoot yourself in the head to save time. |
| 00:28 | <&ToxicFrog> | TheWatcher: IME, if you just want to read or make basic edits and don't need everything ~pixel perfect~, interoperability between Word, OO, and Google Docs is fine. |
| 00:28 | <@celticminstrel> | If you say so. |
| 00:29 | <&ToxicFrog> | If you do need everything pixel perfect, you are permanently turbofucked anyways unless everyone is using not only the same platform but the exact same version thereof. |
| 00:29 | <@celticminstrel> | Heh. |
| 00:29 | <&ToxicFrog> | In which case we come back to "why aren't you using LaTeX"~ |
| 00:29 | <@TheWatcher> | TF: depends. I'd add the caveats that you also need to be using documents that contain no images, tables, or complex formatting. |
| 00:30 | <&ToxicFrog> | IME images and tables are fine, and "complex formatting" for some value of "complex" is something that all of these fall at the first hurdle concerning before you even try to export/import to other programs. |
| 00:31 | <&ToxicFrog> | (or rather, all of them are capable of complex formatting, but getting it consistent within a document - or, god forbid, consistent across multiple related documents - is a Sisyphean task that will rapidly have you considering a new career as an itinerant corn husker) |
| 00:34 | < JustBob> | TF - Yeah, while I'm in a "you will use MS office, or you will find a new job" environment. |
| 00:34 | < JustBob> | Because we've standardized on it, and god forbid we ever change a standard. :p |
| 00:35 | < JustBob> | celmin - Nope. Google docs? Firing offense; unsecured off network storage. Openoffice? Not vetted by IT. Not allowed. etc. |
| 00:35 | < JustBob> | I will admit, though, that a lot of the reasoning for why I haven't swapped to latex is because MS office is cheap. |
| 00:35 | < JustBob> | And since it's pretty much a universal standard, why not just buy it and use it? |
| 00:36 | < JustBob> | I mean, sure, latex is nice and lets me pull stuff from files and script equations, but those features exist elsewhere, so... I've yet to see a really convincing argument as to why I should go to it. |
| 00:40 | < JustBob> | I note that I used to use openoffice. |
| 00:40 | < JustBob> | Fuck that shit. |
| 00:40 | < JustBob> | Never agian. |
| 00:40 | < JustBob> | Worst piece of software ever. Zero compatibility with anyone anywhere. |
| 00:43 | <&ToxicFrog> | Yeah, in my case, the "convincing argument" is "I can get the same shit done in a fraction of the time, it's actually possible to work with other people and version control my documents, and the results look better than anything I can do by hand with office" |
| 00:43 | <&ToxicFrog> | The flip side being that anyone who only knows office and not LaTeX will be kind of confused when it comes time to edit it |
| 00:44 | < JustBob> | Now, if someone gives me a LaTeX WYSIWYG editor that performs like a word processor and generates the LaTeX scripting, while letting me instantly dive into the LaTeX side for inputting things like graphics, equations, etc., and then flipping around back to the word processor side... |
| 00:44 | < JustBob> | I might be tempted to go and learn how to use it, as long as it can output in MS-office-readable-without-issue format. |
| 00:46 | <@Tamber> | The first half of that exists. (Lyx.) |
| 00:46 | <@Tamber> | The latter half, I think, is somewhere between "hen's teeth" and "rocking horse shit"~ |
| 00:46 | < JustBob> | Snerk. |
| 00:46 | < JustBob> | Like I said, I work in a .docx environment. :p |
| 00:46 | <&ToxicFrog> | Yeah. |
| 00:47 | <@Tamber> | I've had trouble with MS Office not reading MS Office documents properly. Sometimes, even the *same version*. |
| 00:47 | <&ToxicFrog> | And in that case, LaTeX is basically useless to you, because it outputs postscript and PDF. |
| 00:47 | < JustBob> | http://people.oregonstate.edu/~loa/Class/Assignment%20%233.pdf <- I mean, that's a pdf output of my last homework assignment, so. I'm good enough in Word that it's not an issue for me to configure it how I want, etc. |
| 00:47 | <@Tamber> | Thankfully, I've had less of that since I stopped dealing with IT~ (Though I'm sure it'll crop up again on the odd occasion I have to use it in college.) |
| 00:54 | < JustBob> | Anyway, yeah. I don't really see any difference between what I can do in Word vs. what I've seen in LaTeX, to be entirely honest. There are little stylistic things, but... I honestly haven't see any difference between the two aside from personal preferential feel for how things are done. Which might be an artifact of the fact that I've been using Word products since I was old enough to use |
| 00:54 | < JustBob> | a computer, and I've got most of the wizardry embedded in my head by this point (aside from convoluted Excel shit, because they keep changing that stuff every fucking iteration of excel.) |
| 00:56 | <&ToxicFrog> | Huzzah, kitten mode implemented |
| 00:56 | < JustBob> | ...kitten mode. |
| 00:56 | <&ToxicFrog> | JustBob: yeah, the thing is, I know you can get stuff in Word that looks just as good in LaTeX |
| 00:56 | <&ToxicFrog> | But I don't have the knowledge to do it by hand |
| 00:57 | <&ToxicFrog> | And I don't feel that I should need to learn that, that's the computer's job to begin with |
| 00:57 | | You're now known as TheWatcher[T-2] |
| 00:57 | < JustBob> | I think that's the, wossname. |
| 00:57 | < JustBob> | The key factor, there. |
| 00:57 | <&ToxicFrog> | I want to write the actual content, not spend five hours fucking around with fonts |
| 00:57 | <&ToxicFrog> | Kitten mode: a mode for my HTPC software that disables all input from everything except the controller |
| 00:58 | < JustBob> | Uh. Just to point out, it takes me about two minutes to configure Word to do what I want. :p |
| 00:58 | <&ToxicFrog> | Specifically, so that when we fall asleep with it running, Suzie cannot start up Top Gear at maximum volume at 4am |
| 00:58 | < JustBob> | But I also reiterate the whole 'I've been using Office products for over 20 years' business. |
| 00:58 | <&ToxicFrog> | Yeah, I was about to say |
| 00:58 | < JustBob> | Kitten Mode. Huh. Makes sense. |
| 00:58 | <&ToxicFrog> | I haven't; I use them only under duress, because I'm more interested in writing the actual material than in getting the formatting just so - so I tended to use plain text except when forced. |
| 01:00 | | You're now known as TheWatcher[zZzZ] |
| 01:00 | < JustBob> | Heh. Really, it just comes down to personal preferences and all that, at this point. I find Word to work fine, you find LaTeX to work fine. |
| 01:01 | < JustBob> | Though I would admit that if I was counseling someone to pick a format... I would tell them to pick word over latex just due to commonality. |
| 01:01 | <&ToxicFrog> | Well, that depends; if they're in STEM academia it's LaTeX all the way down. |
| 01:01 | <@TheWatcher[zZzZ]> | Objection |
| 01:01 | < JustBob> | I'm in STEM academia, and most people use Word. |
| 01:02 | <@TheWatcher[zZzZ]> | 95% of the MSc students I've had to deal with use Word or OO |
| 01:02 | <&ToxicFrog> | Want to submit to a journal? They send you a LaTeX documentclass to compile with. |
| 01:02 | <&ToxicFrog> | TheWatcher[zZzZ]: huh. Regional thing? Here LaTeX is basically mandatory at the MSc and PhD level. |
| 01:02 | < JustBob> | Err... |
| 01:03 | <&McMartin> | Could be regional. At Stanford I had the option of both. |
| 01:03 | < JustBob> | It might be regional to you, TF. |
| 01:03 | <&McMartin> | Pretty sure ACM handed me both a document class and a Word template. |
| 01:03 | <&ToxicFrog> | You can get away with FrameMaker if you're persuasive, but people will then be reluctant to collaborate with you. |
| 01:03 | < JustBob> | I've seen journal articles submitted more often in Word than LaTeX. |
| 01:04 | <@TheWatcher[zZzZ]> | I wish to hell they did all use LaTeX, but yeah, word all over >.< |
| 01:04 | <&ToxicFrog> | ;.; |
| 01:04 | <&ToxicFrog> | There is actually a mandatory methodology course for all MSc students here that includes LaTeX training. |
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| 01:05 | < JustBob> | I can see LaTeX being required because journal articles are submitted from all over the world and LaTeX is a fairly standard setup, but yeah. .docx flying all over the place. |
| 01:05 | <&ToxicFrog> | That, and also with LaTeX you can get formatting consistent with the rest of the journal just by dropping in the right documentclass and recompiling |
| 01:06 | < JustBob> | Out of my class... Of all the people who preferentially type things? I think maybe /one/ uses LaTeX. |
| 01:06 | < JustBob> | And this is a fairly technoliterate nuclear engineering class. |
| 01:07 | < JustBob> | I will say that I hear LaTeX being used a lot more often in the math/science fields. But in the engineering areas? People stare at you funny, being all, "wtf is LaTeX?" |
| 01:07 | <&ToxicFrog> | I am at least fairly confident saying that it is common in CS and math. |
| 01:07 | < JustBob> | Oh, yeah. Very common in math. |
| 01:07 | < JustBob> | But like I said... In engineering? Not as common, by a long shot. |
| 01:07 | <~Vornicus> | it's common in math; CS I see mostly plaintext and diagrams, little in between |
| 01:08 | <&ToxicFrog> | (when I was TAing undergrad classes, I had a student once in a math-heavy course who did all of her assignments in LaTeX. Absolute pleasure to mark, and usually correct too.) |
| 01:10 | <~Vornicus> | I get very annoyed by LaTeX and it's probably mostly because I can't get documents to look - on a large scale - how I want them. |
| 01:13 | <~Vornicus> | Like, okay, I made it so my chapter headings break the two-column mode, print in large type, and then get back to two columns for the rest of the work, and that was amazingly hard to do but I only needed to do it once... but then I couldn't set the indentation of the second and subsequent lines of a numbered item at all. |
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| 02:39 | < Harlow> | Can php do 64 bit math calculations? |
| 02:43 | | * Derakon shrugs. |
| 02:43 | <&Derakon> | Sorry I can't help you. |
| 02:46 | <&ToxicFrog> | I do not actually know the answer, but based on my other knowledge of PHP I'm going to say "yes, but the semantics are not what you expect and actually using that capability is a terrible mistake" |
| 02:46 | <&ToxicFrog> | Or, failing that, "yes, via a C library whose API has been wrapped in the most aggressively halfassed way possible" |
| 02:48 | <~Vornicus> | By default, php will coerce things that would overflow, to float |
| 02:48 | <~Vornicus> | There is however gmp and bcmath support. So, probably the latter of TF's things |
| 02:50 | < Harlow> | I've been told time and time again to stay the hell away from php, but is there really any suitable replacements for someone who is used to c++ style syntax? |
| 02:50 | <&Derakon> | Honestly? Perl. |
| 02:51 | < Harlow> | does perl support 64 bit? |
| 02:51 | <&Derakon> | Or address your addiction to curly braces and use Python. |
| 02:51 | <&Derakon> | Python absolutely does. I'm sure Perl has the ability possibly via CPAN. |
| 02:51 | <&ToxicFrog> | Harlow: what is syntax? A miserable pile of lexemes. |
| 02:52 | <&ToxicFrog> | But yes, for all the stick Perl gets - and rightfully so - I would unhesitatingly recommend it over PHP, and using Perl also gets you CPAN, which is lovely. |
| 02:52 | < Harlow> | heh, well I'm not that deep into php so I'm not really used to it, I just know enough to use it. |
| 02:52 | <&ToxicFrog> | Anyways. Syntax is the least important part of a language. |
| 02:53 | <~Vornicus> | Yeah. Even Java -- noted for its verbosity -- the verbosity isn't really the problem. |
| 02:53 | <~Vornicus> | Any halfassed java ide will do the verbosity for you |
| 02:56 | <&ToxicFrog> | Well |
| 02:57 | < Harlow> | Is Ruby on Rails any good? Im going to making a program with a database, so I'm wondering if Rails is easier (personal experiences?) to interact with my sql. |
| 02:57 | <&ToxicFrog> | The verbosity is a symptom of an underlying problem |
| 02:57 | <&ToxicFrog> | And the underlying problem is that anything you want to do in Java can be accomplished by stapling together 6-8 vaguely related classes with really long class and method names and no useful syntactic sugar for anything at all |
| 02:57 | <&ToxicFrog> | And then wrapping the whole thing in another class |
| 02:58 | <&ToxicFrog> | And then killing yourself |
| 02:58 | <&ToxicFrog> | Harlow: no idea. I've heard good things about it, never used it myself. |
| 02:58 | <&ToxicFrog> | (I would also recommend Ruby over PHP in general, though. Not sure if I'd recommend it over Perl; I think it's a better language in and of itself but the Ruby community can be insufferable) |
| 02:59 | <~Vornicus> | I got mad enough at Ruby that I stopped using it |
| 02:59 | <~Vornicus> | but I was trying to do a specific thing and it just plain wasn't working |
| 03:00 | < Harlow> | :/ well I'm just going to do some math with it. What language is Wolframalpha powered by? |
| 03:00 | <~Vornicus> | Mathematica |
| 03:00 | <~Vornicus> | Actually, the thing I hated about Ruby is that I couldn't do a certain mathematical thing |
| 03:01 | <&ToxicFrog> | What're you going to be doing? |
| 03:01 | < Harlow> | Large multiplication and division. on numbers that may approach 10^50 |
| 03:02 | < Harlow> | maybe even further. |
| 03:02 | <~Vornicus> | Python has large integer arithmetic built in |
| 03:02 | < Harlow> | but how accurate is it, not that accuracy would matter at the far end of these calculations. even a 5-10% error is fine with me as it nears 10^50 |
| 03:03 | <~Vornicus> | Um. For large integers? Perfect accuracy. |
| 03:03 | <&Derakon> | Yeah, Python's math is IIRC arbitrary-precision for integers. |
| 03:03 | <&Derakon> | Floating point is always going to have some degree of rounding error though. |
| 03:03 | <&ToxicFrog> | ...you will need better than 64bit math for 10^50, you realize |
| 03:03 | <&ToxicFrog> | Derakon: untrue; floating point numbers are at least perfectly accurate for integers within the range of the mantissa |
| 03:04 | <&ToxicFrog> | You can safely treat a double as a 52-bit int with no loss of precision |
| 03:04 | <~Vornicus> | TF: yes, and? Python's integers automatically promote to arbitrary precision integers. Some of those project euler problems where it asks for data about a huge number? I let it calculate the huge number itself. |
| 03:05 | <&ToxicFrog> | Vornicus: yes; I was pointing out to Harlow that his original request for "64-bit math" underestimates the requirements by a factor of ~10^30 |
| 03:05 | < Harlow> | oh no i realized that. |
| 03:05 | <&ToxicFrog> | And yes, seconding the recommendation to do it in Python, it makes slinging around huge integers painless. |
| 03:05 | < Harlow> | I guess that should be a question I tackle now, I was just going to look for a library that supported really large numbers. |
| 03:06 | <&Derakon> | Yeah, just use Python. |
| 03:06 | <~Vornicus> | Python also has a "decimal" library which may also help |
| 03:07 | < Harlow> | >.> |
| 03:07 | <~Vornicus> | But: if you're not terribly worried about accuracy, doubles reach up to 10^300 or so |
| 03:07 | <&McMartin> | There's "accuracy" and then there's "stability" |
| 03:07 | <&McMartin> | You can get *arbitrarily* bad accuracy if you do the wrong thins with doubles, or do the right things in the wrong order |
| 03:08 | <~Vornicus> | Makes me wonder how things really do logarithms; the method I know requires a lot of squaring, and errors appear to pile up quickly |
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| 04:12 | | * ToxicFrog ponders re-indenting this entire project to 2sp and then sending OSPO an 1100-line diff containing nothing but whitespace changes |
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| 04:19 | <&McMartin> | waaaat? |
| 04:21 | <&ToxicFrog> | McMartin: so, most of my projects I've standardized on 2-space indentation. EmuFun is older and still uses 4-space. |
| 04:22 | <&ToxicFrog> | I am idly pondering automatically re-indenting the entire thing and then sending the resulting patch for approval. |
| 04:22 | <&McMartin> | EmuFun is being managed by your work now? |
| 04:22 | <&McMartin> | Also, uh, I guess I should ask "what language" since 2sp is of course standard for many lisps |
| 04:23 | <&ToxicFrog> | Not as such, but patches to opensource projects - including your own - need to go through OSPO by default. |
| 04:23 | <&McMartin> | Aha |
| 04:24 | <&ToxicFrog> | There are two processes to turn this off - you can either get formal disavowal of interest from the company (takes a while, means you can't use company resources on the project, but also means it's entirely and completely yours; applies only to your own projects) |
| 04:24 | <&ToxicFrog> | Or once you've sent a bunch of patches to a given project they generally give you permission to send further patches without getting approval first. |
| 04:24 | <&ToxicFrog> | (I have that permission for vstruct, but not emufun) |
| 04:24 | <&ToxicFrog> | And it's written in Lua. |
| 04:28 | <&ToxicFrog> | I'm not sure if there is a standard for lua indentation level. |
| 04:30 | <~Vornicus> | I've never seen a pep8 alike for Lua |
| 04:31 | <@Alek> | ok. |
| 04:31 | <@Alek> | OSPO? |
| 04:32 | <~Vornicus> | open source projects office - Google's internal clearinghouse for sending out updates to open source software projects. |
| 04:32 | <~Vornicus> | (and similar things) |
| 04:33 | <~Vornicus> | may have the acronym wrong |
| 04:39 | <&ToxicFrog> | Nope, that's correct |
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| 04:47 | <~Vornicus> | *------------------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----------------//////////////////////144444444444444444444444444444444444444444 / |
| 04:47 | <~Vornicus> | |
| 04:47 | <~Vornicus> | |
| 04:47 | <~Vornicus> | |
| 04:48 | <&McMartin> | \o/? |
| 04:50 | <~Vornicus> | quite |
| 04:55 | <&ToxicFrog> | Hi, kitten. |
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| 05:24 | <@Alek> | cool. |
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| 06:54 | < jeroud> | Pearltyping! \o/ |
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| --- Log closed Sun Nov 17 12:30:43 2013 |
| --- Log opened Sun Nov 17 12:32:01 2013 |
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| 17:43 | <@iospace> | i love how \o/ is the universal sign for "KITTEN ON KEYBOARD" |
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| 23:48 | | io\PACKERS is now known as iospace |
| 23:49 | | Turaiel[Offline] is now known as Turaiel |
| --- Log closed Mon Nov 18 00:00:57 2013 |