| --- Log opened Sat Nov 02 00:00:32 2013 |
| 00:01 | | Derakon[AFK] is now known as Derakon |
| 00:14 | <&Derakon> | McM: awesome. |
| 00:15 | <&Derakon> | I forget, what language are you working in? |
| 00:15 | <&McMartin> | C |
| 00:15 | <&Derakon> | Righto. |
| 00:15 | <&Derakon> | Well, if for some reason you decide to roll with SDL2 and a custom engine rather than with Game Maker, feel free to steal from Jetblade~ |
| 00:16 | <&Derakon> | Logic if not outright source code. |
| 00:16 | <&McMartin> | Well, Monocle *is* that custom engine. |
| 00:16 | <&Derakon> | Ahh. |
| 00:16 | <&Derakon> | How are you handling collision detection and response? |
| 00:16 | <&McMartin> | I'm working on that now~ |
| 00:16 | <&Derakon> | Ha. |
| 00:16 | <&Derakon> | Jetblade has working Separating Axis Theorem collision detection. |
| 00:17 | <&Derakon> | Which allows for collision between arbitrary convex polygons. |
| 00:17 | <&McMartin> | Yeah, that is More Work Than I Want To Do |
| 00:17 | <&Derakon> | Okay, then axis-aligned bounding boxes are probably your best bet. |
| 00:17 | <&McMartin> | Quite |
| 00:17 | <&Derakon> | I wanted SAT because of sloped terrain. |
| 00:18 | <&Derakon> | Which is, I note, a detail many modern games completely eschew~ |
| 00:18 | <&McMartin> | Yes, this is why I'm starting with AABB~ |
| 00:18 | <&McMartin> | I will probably eventually need pixel-based hitboxes as well |
| 00:18 | <&Derakon> | I'm guessing you won't base physics off of those, though. |
| 00:19 | <&Derakon> | Just, like, "did I get hit" kind of things. |
| 00:19 | <&McMartin> | Mostly |
| 00:19 | <&McMartin> | You can use this to get slopes, too |
| 00:19 | <&Derakon> | I did bitmask collision detection in an early version of Niobium, so it's not very hard. |
| 00:19 | <&McMartin> | Sable uses that~ |
| 00:19 | <&Derakon> | IIRC Super Metroid handles slopes via terrain that only has one solid edge. |
| 00:19 | <&Derakon> | So it always knows which way to eject you. |
| 00:20 | <&McMartin> | I have source for a number of high-speed 2D platformers. |
| 00:20 | <&McMartin> | And yeah, the trick is to have slope terrain have autoteleport to follow if you can move to contact in less than X time |
| 00:20 | <&McMartin> | Er, less than X space |
| 00:21 | <&McMartin> | That way if you're going very fast off a slope you launch into a falling animation, but normally you'll just track the slope down. |
| 00:21 | <&McMartin> | There's a whole page that reverse engineers Sonic physics and it's a huge pile of cheaty heuristics that you can do really fast on a 68k~ |
| 00:22 | <&McMartin> | And actually, for Delver I'm strongly inclined to just use small AABBs so that enemies and the player have some leeway on hitboxes |
| 00:22 | <&McMartin> | It's *very annoying* to players to have hitboxes depend on what frame of animation you happen to be in, etc |
| 00:22 | <&Derakon> | Yep. |
| 00:23 | <&Derakon> | Generally, the player's combat hitbox should be smaller than their physics hitbox. |
| 00:23 | <&Derakon> | Or at least you should give the appearance of such. |
| 00:23 | <&McMartin> | The Delver is mostly rectangular |
| 00:23 | <&McMartin> | Also, he never attacks~ |
| 00:24 | <&Derakon> | Monsters can be more accurate, since the player is likely to complain when they whiff an apparent hit. |
| 00:24 | <&McMartin> | For guys like Mario it's trickier because your physics and your combat hitboxes are in a very real sense "the same" |
| 00:24 | <&Derakon> | Well, quite. |
| 00:24 | <&Derakon> | Ryu's combat hitbox in the NES Ninja Gaiden games is a line. |
| 00:26 | | ToxicFrog [ToxicFrog@Nightstar-rr9d3g.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [A TLS packet with unexpected length was received.] |
| 00:28 | <&McMartin> | Anyway, re: "how I'm doing collisions"; I'm planning on having game resources define "kinds" of game objects, and also to define which kind-to-kind collisions are interesting. |
| 00:29 | <&McMartin> | Client code will consume an endless stream of events from Monocle, which alternate between input events, "it's time to update/render this object" events, and "These two objects just collided" events. |
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| 00:29 | | mode/#code [+ao ToxicFrog ToxicFrog] by ChanServ |
| 00:29 | <&McMartin> | Actually, collision happens in the middle of the update |
| 00:29 | <&McMartin> | TF: 17:22 -!- ToxicFrog [ToxicFrog@Nightstar-rr9d3g.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [A TLS packet with unexpected length was received.] |
| 00:29 | <&McMartin> | Your clients are going mad again, it seems |
| 00:31 | <&McMartin> | The immediate roadmap is: (a) retrofit for SDL2; (b) put in the notion of kinds and objects; (c) Have a default update and default render operation, rewrite the current demo to use that |
| 00:31 | <&McMartin> | Then I can start worrying about overrides and collision |
| 00:31 | <&McMartin> | I probably also need an "out of bounds" event for when something leaves the playfield or completes an animation. |
| 00:31 | <&ToxicFrog> | McMartin: no, that was me rebooting Orias to install a new kernel and ZFS driver |
| 00:31 | <&McMartin> | Ah |
| 00:32 | <&Derakon> | McM: sounds plausible. |
| 00:32 | <&Derakon> | I'll be back in a bit; must walk Pavlov. |
| 00:32 | | Derakon is now known as Derakon[AFK] |
| 00:35 | | You're now known as TheWatcher[T-2] |
| 00:36 | | ktemkin is now known as ktemkin[afk] |
| 00:38 | | You're now known as TheWatcher[zZzZ] |
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| 01:02 | | mode/#code [+o celticminstrel] by ChanServ |
| 01:02 | | Derakon[AFK] is now known as Derakon |
| 01:03 | <&Derakon> | Oh, dunno if you really need the help, but I also have an A* search implemented in Pyrel. |
| 01:03 | <&Derakon> | It's a pretty simple algorithm though. |
| 01:23 | <&McMartin> | Because Monocle is C, I'm looking for every opportunity to move work *out* of the library and into friendlier languages |
| 01:24 | | * Alek saw a game, A-Star, that was made for a class assignment to make something using that algorithm. |
| 01:24 | <&Derakon> | I'm guessing that doesn't extend to embedding interpreters into Monocle, though. |
| 01:24 | <&McMartin> | The architecture plan is the reverse |
| 01:24 | <&McMartin> | Monocle should be itself embeddable into damn near anything |
| 01:25 | <&Derakon> | Heh, okay. |
| 01:25 | <&McMartin> | (That's why it's C; nothing else links cleanly) |
| 01:25 | <&Derakon> | ctypes is not very hard to use (Python's library for loading and invoking DLLs) |
| 01:25 | <&McMartin> | Yes, part of the reason for switching to SDL2 is so that some ctypes experimentation can be done |
| 01:26 | <&McMartin> | One of the issues with SDL1 is that one of the compiler flags involves re-#defining main(). |
| 01:26 | <&Derakon> | D'oh. |
| 01:26 | <&McMartin> | So as to properly initialize app-level globals and OS integration &c |
| 01:27 | <&McMartin> | SDL2 still does this, but only on Windows, and all it does now is obfuscate the entry point for /SUBSYSTEM:WINDOWS vs. /SUBSYSTEM:CONSOLE. |
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| 01:57 | <&Derakon> | So if you're contemplating doing A* outside of the engine, what all is the engine going to be responsible for? |
| 02:02 | <&McMartin> | That's a design question I haven't fully solved yet. |
| 02:03 | <&McMartin> | But the tentative answer is "resource wrangling, the direct I/O parts, and enough understanding of entities to enable a client to replicate Game Maker levels of logic" |
| 02:03 | | * Derakon nods. |
| 02:04 | <&McMartin> | Which is much smaller than "Game Maker engine clone", because, for instance, things like event fuses can just be written directly by the client. |
| 02:04 | <&Derakon> | Resource martialling, collision detection, maybe animation in the sequencing-frames-together sense. |
| 02:04 | <&McMartin> | That latter is part of resource marshalling. |
| 02:04 | <&Derakon> | That's usually what I think of as engine-level stuff. |
| 02:04 | <&Derakon> | Fairynuff. |
| 02:04 | <&McMartin> | I'm not having my resources lined up and shot. |
| 02:04 | <&Derakon> | Heh. |
| 02:05 | <&McMartin> | https://github.com/michaelcmartin/monocle/blob/master/demo/resources/earthball.j son |
| 02:05 | <&Derakon> | That does mean the engine has to have resource file formats. |
| 02:05 | <&McMartin> | I just linked it~ |
| 02:05 | <&Derakon> | To declare things like animation rates, hit boxes, etc. |
| 02:05 | <&Derakon> | Ha, right. |
| 02:05 | <&McMartin> | Hitboxes, yes, animation rates I'm taking a page from GM and making a mutable object attribute. |
| 02:06 | <&Derakon> | So the client would be responsible for setting those values after they've been loaded, eh? |
| 02:06 | <&McMartin> | Right, and it's a float |
| 02:06 | <&Derakon> | I guess you might want to have variable-rate animations. |
| 02:06 | <&McMartin> | It's very common to be "only animate while moving and otherwise freeze or lock to this frame" |
| 02:07 | <&McMartin> | The GM name for it is image_speed and in practice in the stuff I've written it ends up getting touched nearly as often as x and y are. |
| 02:07 | <&McMartin> | (Though not as much as dx and dy) |
| 02:08 | <&McMartin> | I think the plan is that animation rate defaults to 1 image per frame and if you want something else you set it at load |
| 02:08 | <&McMartin> | Alternately, that could end up part of the kind if that gets inconvenient. |
| 02:08 | <&McMartin> | It definitely shouldn't be part of the sprite though. |
| 02:08 | <&Derakon> | I think it's worth being allowed to specify a different default rate at load. |
| 02:08 | <&Derakon> | If nothing else, practically every animated background sprite will just loop indefinitely at some fixed rate. |
| 02:09 | <&McMartin> | Right |
| 02:09 | <&McMartin> | I'm thinking that belongs as part of Kind, though, not Sprite. |
| 02:09 | <&Derakon> | I'm not clear on what Kind is. |
| 02:09 | <&McMartin> | "class" is a reserved word in too many languages. |
| 02:09 | <&Derakon> | "Game entity category" then? |
| 02:09 | <&McMartin> | Yeah. |
| 02:10 | <&McMartin> | Also "the resolution at which you can specify which collisions are interesting" |
| 02:10 | <&Derakon> | So like "monster", "item", "background prop", "terrain", etc. |
| 02:10 | <&McMartin> | Also, most likely, each individual monster will be a subkind. |
| 02:11 | <&Derakon> | Yep. |
| 02:11 | <&Derakon> | In Pyrel they're templates as applied by CreatureFactories, but the concept is similar. |
| 02:11 | <&McMartin> | I'm not finalizing that here now, though, because that may be constraining things too far |
| 02:11 | <&McMartin> | If the *only* thing kinds do is specify which collisions are interesting, the mapping from Object ID to arbitrary forms of polymorphic data can happen in the client code. |
| 02:11 | <&Derakon> | Pyrel works that way in part because being able to apply templates to monsters is a valuable ability. |
| 02:12 | <&McMartin> | "Can kinds be dynamic" is a can of worms I haven't thought through yet. |
| 02:13 | <&McMartin> | I'm also unsure if I want to even formalize map systems in monocle itself, or just build one in C++ or Python as part of the demo system with encouragement to steal it |
| 02:14 | <&Derakon> | What you might want to do is have Monocle wrangle a quad-tree or other spatial container. |
| 02:14 | <&Derakon> | (Jetblade has a working quadtree system, though again the concept is pretty straightforward) |
| 02:15 | <&McMartin> | Premature optimization att his point |
| 02:15 | <&McMartin> | Possibly necessary depending on exactly how one models terrain |
| 02:15 | <&McMartin> | Naively copying how you do terrain in GM would require it |
| 02:15 | <&McMartin> | I'm not sure that's valuable here, especially when I can trivially use a nav grid. |
| 02:16 | <&McMartin> | The initial design expectation is that very few collisions "matter" |
| 02:16 | <&Derakon> | What kind of meaningless collisions are you thinking will be happening? |
| 02:17 | <&McMartin> | Enemy bullets with one another, for starters. |
| 02:17 | <&Derakon> | Are you planning on implementing danmaku in Monocle~? |
| 02:18 | <&McMartin> | I want it to be possible, yes, it's not a tremendously difficult engine domain. |
| 02:18 | <&Derakon> | Jetblade had entity groups that by default would not collide with each other. |
| 02:18 | <&Derakon> | That is, e.g. everything in the terrain group would not collide with other objects in the terrain group. |
| 02:18 | <&McMartin> | I'm trying to be more restrictive than that |
| 02:19 | <&McMartin> | If something isn't registered to react to a collision, that object should *never even be iterated over* in the system I have sketched |
| 02:19 | <&McMartin> | That makes danmaku collision detection linear in the number of bullets on screen at once~ |
| 02:19 | <&Derakon> | Well, you still have to decide if a given bullet collides with the player. |
| 02:19 | <&McMartin> | Yes, that's why it's linear instead of constant time. |
| 02:19 | <&Derakon> | But when considering bullet-bullet collisions you just say "Okay, these two are in the same group, skip it." |
| 02:20 | <&McMartin> | And just doing that is about as expensive as doing the AABB test. |
| 02:20 | <&Derakon> | Oh wait, I see what you're talking about. |
| 02:20 | <&Derakon> | Yeah, fair enough. |
| 02:21 | <&McMartin> | More formally: If I were doing something which was a true physics engine like box2d, something like quadtrees would be mandatory because part of operation is to work out All Collisions |
| 02:21 | <&McMartin> | However, the collisions I'm using are so short to check and can be constrained so drastically with type information alone that until this is proven inadequate I'm just gonna roll with it. |
| 02:22 | | * Derakon nods. |
| 02:22 | < RichyB> | unless you have, like, thirty objects total and can afford O(n^2) |
| 02:22 | <&McMartin> | One place that could, ultimately, prove it inadequate: the GM approach to platformers is to fill the stage with tiny invisible objects that represent places you can't go |
| 02:23 | <&McMartin> | My inclination is to say "use a tile grid with places you can't go marked there", but even there you're still looking at Number of Tiles * Number of Mobiles, which is probably 1 |
| 02:23 | <&McMartin> | And as such maybe a few thousand |
| 02:23 | <&Derakon> | IIRC Iji had to consolidate adjacent terrain tiles together as an optimization. |
| 02:23 | | Thalass|sleeps is now known as Thalass |
| 02:24 | <&McMartin> | But with a tiled map, I don't need a quadtree because I can just, like, look at the map. "Is location x, y clear?" is O(1). |
| 02:24 | <&McMartin> | Yeah, and Iji, as you may recall, used GM~ |
| 02:24 | <&Derakon> | Yes, that was my point. |
| 02:24 | <&McMartin> | And an old, less optimized version, too. |
| 02:24 | | * Thalass eyes The Colbert Report, eyes codecademy.com |
| 02:25 | <&McMartin> | Iji also had some cunning tricks I was never able to replicate that it used those tiles for |
| 02:25 | <&McMartin> | The part I was able to work out is that some tiles are basically marked "Never look at me" and the camera would avoid them, thus giving super-metroid-like horizontal and vertical "scroll lock" even while otherwise being a free-scrolling system. |
| 02:27 | | * Derakon nods. |
| 02:28 | <&Derakon> | I think you can achieve that simply by locking the camera to an invisible game object that only collides with those tiles and otherwise chases the protagonist. |
| 02:28 | <&McMartin> | Yeah. |
| 02:28 | < Vorntastic> | Mcm: how do you handle, um |
| 02:28 | <&McMartin> | Actually, Delver did that for flip scroll, which mostly worked, except sometimes it was off by a subpixel and that produced blurry sprites. |
| 02:28 | <&Derakon> | So, lock the camera position to full pixels? |
| 02:29 | <&McMartin> | Yeah, I ultimately removed the "follow this object" setting and just the camera object forcibly assign which part of the level to display. |
| 02:30 | < Vorntastic> | Um |
| 02:31 | <&McMartin> | Out with it |
| 02:31 | < Vorntastic> | in brinstar, not revealing the right side of the elevator room until you pass throught the super missile wall. |
| 02:31 | <&McMartin> | Hm |
| 02:32 | <&McMartin> | I'd do it with a "don't scroll past this" barrier that is destroyed when the player touches it. |
| 02:32 | < Vorntastic> | And similar situations in many other games. |
| 02:32 | <&McMartin> | The traditional GM answer is actually "those are in different rooms" |
| 02:33 | <&McMartin> | You just can leave the room by an unobvious route and then that's a flipscroll. |
| 02:33 | <&McMartin> | But Iji was firmly one room per level |
| 02:34 | <&McMartin> | I mean, if you have complete programmatic control over the camera |
| 02:34 | <&McMartin> | And you do |
| 02:34 | <&McMartin> | You can do arbitrary things |
| 02:34 | <&McMartin> | So that isn't your question. |
| 02:34 | <&McMartin> | "How does Iji handle this" is answered with "Iji doesn't do that" |
| 02:34 | <&McMartin> | "How does Knytt Stories/Underground handle this" is answered with "Knytt Stories/Underground don't do that because they're flipscroll everywhere" |
| 02:36 | <&McMartin> | "How do you do it with soft borders and a chase object": I've never done this. I'm not 100% sure you can with just that. |
| 02:37 | <&Derakon> | "Soft borders"? |
| 02:37 | <&McMartin> | I don't have a good name for it |
| 02:37 | <&Derakon> | Use a bad name~ |
| 02:37 | <@Azash> | I wonder if people actually sign up for devbootcamp |
| 02:38 | <@Azash> | Nine weeks of agile RoR hardly seems worth $12k in tuition |
| 02:38 | <&McMartin> | "Soft borders." ;-) Defined as "don't let this object get closer than X pixels to the edge of the screen." |
| 02:38 | <&Derakon> | Camera chases an object that chases another object that slams to a stop when it hits the border. |
| 02:38 | <&Derakon> | But that's kind of Rube Goldberg. |
| 02:39 | <&Derakon> | (To be clear, the object the camera chases stops when the slam-to-stop object stops) |
| 02:39 | <&McMartin> | It might be fun to experiment with "camera is constrained to a track but has a spring pulling it towards the player object" |
| 02:40 | <&McMartin> | You need some way of snapping the spring so that it will move towards the player if you go too far |
| 02:40 | <&Derakon> | I was thinking about that earlier, actually. |
| 02:40 | <&McMartin> | That might get you the Brinstar effect; have the track end "too soon" and then when you leave the screen that puts you just far enough away to snap it. |
| 02:40 | <&Derakon> | Set camera max speed based on distance to player. |
| 02:41 | <&Derakon> | Though one thing that amused me was to have the camera literally go into an "elastic" mode if the player is going too quickly. |
| 02:41 | <&Derakon> | So the player charges offscreen, the camera goes "oh shit" and starts chasing, gradually catches up to player, when player stops, camera overshoots and has to swing back. |
| 02:41 | <&Derakon> | Probably less than ideal for actual gameplay, but could make a good cutscene. |
| 02:42 | <&McMartin> | Look closely at the camera moves the next time you play a 3D Mario game. |
| 02:42 | <&McMartin> | It is *totally* on a rubber band. |
| 02:42 | <&Derakon> | I was thinking of a sufficiently loose rubber band that the player would get offscreen at two points. |
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| 04:10 | | Derakon is now known as Derakon[AFK] |
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| 04:23 | <&McMartin> | "Larry Tesler once said, 'Agile development is like teenage sex. Everyone claims to be doing it, but less than 1% actually are.'" |
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| --- Log closed Sat Nov 02 06:32:44 2013 |
| --- Log opened Sat Nov 02 09:43:10 2013 |
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| 14:07 | <&ToxicFrog> | McMartin: it is, yes. |
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| --- Log closed Sat Nov 02 15:44:55 2013 |
| --- Log opened Sat Nov 02 15:45:02 2013 |
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| 17:45 | < Syka_> | a pox on network-manager developers |
| 17:45 | < Syka_> | A POX |
| 17:50 | | Derakon[AFK] is now known as Derakon |
| 18:01 | <@froztbyte> | Learn to drive your software better :D |
| 18:03 | < Syka_> | froztbyte: i click on 'join network' and it doesnt |
| 18:03 | < Syka_> | :'( |
| 18:04 | <@froztbyte> | So go see why? |
| 18:09 | <&ToxicFrog> | Syka_: historically when this has happened to me it's because nm is still running but nm-applet has shat itself |
| 18:09 | <&ToxicFrog> | kill and restart nm-applet and see if it starts working |
| 18:10 | < Syka_> | ToxicFrog: did an apt-get upgrade/etc and reboot, still happening |
| 18:10 | | Kindamoody|out is now known as Kindamoody |
| 18:11 | < Syka_> | the icon has got an x, so i think nm is fucked |
| 18:11 | < Syka_> | stupid gnome3 bullshit |
| 18:11 | | * Syka_ flips her laptop |
| 18:12 | | * froztbyte tableflips Syka_ |
| 18:12 | <@froztbyte> | Syka_: seriously, just go check the log |
| 18:12 | < Syka_> | froztbyte: it has a log? |
| 18:12 | <@froztbyte> | ....... |
| 18:12 | < Syka_> | where are the logs for these things? |
| 18:13 | <@froztbyte> | Literally everything it does, /var/log/daemon.log |
| 18:15 | < Syka_> | nope, nothin |
| 18:15 | < Syka_> | tail -f it, click on the network, no entries |
| 18:15 | < Syka_> | i think its gnome3 broke'd |
| 18:17 | <@froztbyte> | What does 'nm-cli' say? |
| 18:17 | <@Alek> | it says moo |
| 18:18 | <@froztbyte> | That would be ack, and aptitude |
| 18:20 | < Syka_> | eh, my requirement for it has passed, now |
| 18:20 | < Syka_> | I just used my phone |
| 18:20 | < Syka_> | i'll figure it out later, possibly by nuking gnome3 |
| 18:29 | | Turaiel[Offline] is now known as Turaiel |
| 19:35 | <&ToxicFrog> | My new backuprc: https://gist.github.com/ToxicFrog/4f87f3da74235cb9f3fc |
| 19:41 | <&ToxicFrog> | hmm whoops |
| 19:41 | <&ToxicFrog> | PSA to people using bup |
| 19:41 | <&ToxicFrog> | Don't open a bupdir in gitk |
| 19:41 | <&ToxicFrog> | If you do, do not under any circumstances click on a commit |
| 19:41 | <@Tamber> | How badly exploded is everything? |
| 19:41 | <&ToxicFrog> | Well, I still have one git diff-tree running |
| 19:42 | <&ToxicFrog> | VIRT 9GB RES 1GB SHR 0.5GB MEM% 22 STATE blocked |
| 19:42 | <&ToxicFrog> | the others (and gitk itself) looked similar before the kills reached them |
| 19:42 | <@Tamber> | ...ouch. |
| 19:43 | <&ToxicFrog> | Aah, it's finally gone |
| 19:43 | <&ToxicFrog> | And suddenly bup itself is running much faster~ |
| 19:49 | | * Azash spots an interesting course coming up: http://www.cs.helsinki.fi/u/karvi/adv-harj1_13.pdf |
| 19:53 | | Kindamoody is now known as Kindamoody[zZz] |
| 20:08 | < Turaiel> | Anyone know if it's possible to just clear one float? :/ |
| 20:10 | <&ToxicFrog> | "clear one float"? |
| 20:10 | < Turaiel> | In CSS. I should specify these things more often @.@ |
| 20:11 | <&Derakon> | You can access style sheet attributes of entities in Javascript. |
| 20:11 | <&Derakon> | Just set the float attribute to ''. |
| 20:11 | < Turaiel> | I have a sidebar floating to the left, and the content area next to it. Within the content area, I have a floating image. When I try to clear that float, it also clears the sidebar float |
| 20:11 | <&Derakon> | IIRC that makes it revert to default. |
| 20:12 | < Turaiel> | Which causes a gap in the content up to the end of the sidebar |
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| 23:13 | <@Tamber> | ...oh dear. |
| 23:14 | <&McMartin> | Fwackoom |
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| 23:51 | <@froztbyte> | hai |
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| --- Log closed Sun Nov 03 00:00:15 2013 |