| --- Log opened Tue Oct 15 00:00:32 2013 |
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| 00:57 | | * McMartin finds himself having to deal both with Perl on Windows, and MSVS2010 |
| 00:57 | <&McMartin> | MSVS2010 at least either is or can be configured to be not as bad as I was previously led to believe. |
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| 02:10 | | * Derakon mutters, tries to figure out why his new clicky keyboard doesn't work for accessing the BIOS boot menu (F12 menu). |
| 02:11 | <&Derakon> | Whelp, time to try rebooting again~ |
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| 02:16 | <&Derakon> | Bleh. My old keyboard works fine, but I don't want to have to keep it around every time I want to boot into Windows. |
| 02:18 | < xybre> | Derakon: Some of the modern gamer keyboards use a custom protocol for communication that doesn't work outside of a modern OS. |
| 02:19 | <&Derakon> | This isn't a gamer keyboard, or at least I wouldn't think of it as one; it's a Tactile Pro. About the only thing special it does is that some of the function keys (including F12) are specced to do volume control in OSX. |
| 02:19 | <&Derakon> | There's a Fn key to access normal function-key effects but it doesn't work in the BIOS. |
| 02:19 | <&McMartin> | Is the BIOS not speaking USB? That would be silly. |
| 02:21 | <&Derakon> | The old keyboard is also USB. |
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| 03:21 | < Syka> | https://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=how+much+does+a+good+telescope+cost < rofl |
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| 03:55 | < Xon> | http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-24519307 |
| 03:55 | < Xon> | ugh, talk about incompetence |
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| 08:05 | < AverageJoe> | whats the win32 api to check how much ram a system has? |
| 08:06 | < AverageJoe> | wmi maybe? |
| 08:14 | <&McMartin> | WMI is, I think, overkill |
| 08:14 | <&McMartin> | Hang on a sec, I've done this before |
| 08:15 | <&McMartin> | GlobalMemoryStatusEx |
| 08:15 | <&McMartin> | http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/desktop/aa366589%28v=vs.85%29.as px |
| 08:22 | < AverageJoe> | hmmm thanks |
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| 14:29 | <@Tarinaky> | Math question. I need help with introductory/mathematical control theory. I'm having a hard time finding something at my err... level :/ |
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| 14:30 | <@Tarinaky> | Mathematical Control Theory for illiterate lobotomy out-patients? |
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| 16:30 | <@Azash> | "hanynet.com applications are NOT signed with Apple GateKeeper technology because Hanynet's applications are OPEN SOURCE. You don't need any sign to trust Hanynet's application because you (and the Mac community) has FREE ACCESS TO ITS SOURCE CODE. " |
| 16:33 | < RichyB> | Y'know, it's still standard practice for the developers of all Apache projects to publish GPG signatures. |
| 16:56 | <@celticminstrel> | GPG? |
| 16:57 | < Syka> | gnu privacy guard |
| 16:57 | < RichyB> | GNU Privacy Guard. GPGv1 and GPGv2 are the GNU project's implementations of OpenPGP asymmetric encryption. |
| 16:57 | < RichyB> | They're really surprisingly nice. |
| 16:58 | <@celticminstrel> | Ah. |
| 16:58 | < RichyB> | Technically they're OpenPGP signatures, it's just that >90% of the time I'd only interact with them through GPG, so I was being sloppy. |
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| 17:21 | <@iospace> | OWWWWWWW |
| 17:22 | <@iospace> | we have load resistors on our power supplies in order to get them to not say "not enough load" i touched one with my forearm |
| 17:22 | <@iospace> | that PSU has been on for a good amount of time |
| 17:36 | < RichyB> | yeouch |
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| 18:37 | | * Pandemic hands iospace some burn cream |
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| 19:57 | < simon_> | what's the smallest instruction set architecture you can come up with? |
| 19:57 | < simon_> | can I work with just ADD and BEQ? |
| 19:58 | <@Tamber> | The smallest is, I believe, 1. |
| 19:58 | <@Tamber> | It's not very practical, afair. |
| 19:59 | <@Tamber> | http://www.drdobbs.com/embedded-systems/the-one-instruction-wonder/221800122 |
| 20:18 | | Kindamoody is now known as Kindamoody[zZz] |
| 20:32 | <&McMartin> | Subtract and Branch on Carry |
| 20:45 | <&McMartin> | https://forge.ocamlcore.org/projects/batsh/ |
| 20:54 | <@iospace> | http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-24530768 it's official, Apple is the company of chavs |
| 20:54 | <@iospace> | :V |
| 20:59 | < [R]> | I thought chavs was slang for hipsters |
| 20:59 | < [R]> | I'm clearly missing a connection here |
| 21:00 | <&ToxicFrog> | [R]: no, chav is more closely analoguous to trailer trash |
| 21:00 | <&ToxicFrog> | simon_: smallest, smallest useful, or smallest turing-complete? |
| 21:02 | <@Tarinaky> | Chav: from the acronym 'Council Housed And Violent'. Lower-class young unemployed individual, typically (though not exclusively) male. Strongly associated with the more politically correct (though broader) term NEET (Not in Education, Employment or Training) |
| 21:02 | <@Tarinaky> | Equally associated with modern criminal subculture. |
| 21:03 | < simon_> | ToxicFrog, something in-between the two latter :) |
| 21:03 | < simon_> | I'm settling with ADD, ADDI, BEQ and EMIT (for printing results) |
| 21:04 | < AnnoDomini> | Tarinaky: I had heard that it comes from Chesterfield Average but yours seems more appropriate. |
| 21:05 | <@Tarinaky> | Council Housed And Violent betrays the root of the slur - that of classism. |
| 21:06 | <@Azash> | McMartin: Do you know any good place to get ideas for programming projects? |
| 21:06 | <@Tarinaky> | Which makes it all the sadder that it was popularised by young middle class of otherwise leftist leaning :/ |
| 21:06 | <@Tarinaky> | Death of socialism and all that. |
| 21:06 | <@Tarinaky> | Anyway. Imma hide. |
| 21:06 | <&McMartin> | You can't spell "community" without COMMUNISM |
| 21:07 | <@Tarinaky> | Don't be silly. The Communist Manifesto is an artifact from the 19th century of /historical/ importance. |
| 21:07 | <@Azash> | Or well, anyone else who might have good suggestions |
| 21:07 | <@Tarinaky> | It's no more relevant in the 21st century than agrarian feudalism :/ |
| 21:08 | <&McMartin> | My current operating theory is that fear of it is a major factor driving the present US political crisis |
| 21:09 | <@Tarinaky> | I think 'Fear of Debt' is a bigger one. |
| 21:09 | <&McMartin> | Azash: Are you looking for coding challenges or things that will be nice to work on and then have once you've gotten them in shape? |
| 21:09 | <@Tarinaky> | The sovreign insolvency is being used as a wedge issue. |
| 21:09 | <&McMartin> | Tarinaky: This probably isn't the channel for this, but the thing being held hostage is a threat to *default*. |
| 21:09 | <@Azash> | Kind of both, in this case more like "I need to refresh my knowledge or learn language X" |
| 21:10 | <@Tarinaky> | McMartin: At no stage did I say this was rational. |
| 21:10 | <&McMartin> | Azash: Textbooks, then. |
| 21:10 | <@Azash> | Beyond just "let's implement Cormen" to a level that has you face of the, erh, real parts of the language |
| 21:10 | <@Tarinaky> | McMartin: No public spending on policies that're politicially or ideologically inconvenient for me because OMG WE DONT HAVE ANY MONEY STOP BORROWING! |
| 21:10 | <@Tarinaky> | *waves hands in the air to emphasis silliness* |
| 21:11 | <@Azash> | McMartin: You mean text books for learning the language or general concept ones and implement the ideas as you go? |
| 21:11 | <@Azash> | The second part isn't that bad an idea admittedly |
| 21:11 | <&McMartin> | The latter, yeah. |
| 21:11 | <&McMartin> | If you haven't worke through SICP yet, SICP is great. |
| 21:12 | <@Tarinaky> | We have to reduce the debt! Which is why we're increasing the debt while reporting a reduction in d^2/dt^2 [debt] as a reduction in debt because reducing national debt is a very silly thing to even try to do. |
| 21:13 | <@Azash> | I'll give it a read, thanks |
| 21:13 | <@Azash> | Also I should read Tarkoma's overlay book |
| 21:13 | <@Tarinaky> | Anyway. I'll shh, because this isn't the channel for this. |
| 21:13 | <@Azash> | He's a prof here so his course of course features it, seems solid but some of the bucketing algos seem like black magic |
| 21:21 | <@Azash> | Are C defines specific for the source file or the entire program? |
| 21:21 | <&McMartin> | The translation unit |
| 21:21 | <@Azash> | So in the typical case, the entire tree of included files? |
| 21:22 | <@Tarinaky> | I'm not sure tree is the right word. |
| 21:22 | <@Tarinaky> | C #include is very stupid. |
| 21:22 | <&McMartin> | But yes, that. |
| 21:22 | <@Tarinaky> | It literally just includes the contents of another file from that line. |
| 21:22 | <&McMartin> | It's a copy-paste effect |
| 21:23 | < [R]> | No, every file that would be linearly included after the #define and every file up the chain that had included the file with the #define until the #undef appears. |
| 21:24 | <@Azash> | Ah, right |
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| 21:25 | <@Tarinaky> | Pretend that your compiler is in fact a giant reel-to-reel 1970s monstrosity. |
| 21:25 | <@Azash> | So basically #include <stuff> specifies a dynamic link and #include "" a static one, or? |
| 21:25 | <@Tarinaky> | Of the kind you saw in hollywood movies as a child. |
| 21:25 | < [R]> | No |
| 21:25 | <@Tarinaky> | No? C is pretty old :p |
| 21:26 | < [R]> | <> only looks in the compiler's directories, and "" does that, but includes the CLI added directories. (IIRC) |
| 21:26 | <@Tarinaky> | Oh. That. |
| 21:26 | <@Azash> | Right |
| 21:26 | <@Tarinaky> | I /think/ the difference between <> and "" is only on C++ |
| 21:26 | < [R]> | (One of them does the same as the other and more, that much is correct. Just which one does what I'm a bit fuzzy on) |
| 21:26 | <@Tarinaky> | In C they're identical. |
| 21:27 | <@Tarinaky> | With the disclaimer that your compiler can do whatever the fuck it wants. |
| 21:27 | <@Azash> | Are the files mushed together before compilation or during assembly? Based on the name, I'd guess the latter |
| 21:27 | <@Tarinaky> | Before compilation. |
| 21:27 | <@Tarinaky> | During the precompilation phase. |
| 21:27 | < [R]> | http://xiennith.com/tmp.txt |
| 21:28 | < [R]> | ^ Text from GNU's C PreProcessor info-page. |
| 21:28 | <@celticminstrel> | Why would you guess the latter? |
| 21:28 | <@Azash> | Because 'assembly' :P |
| 21:29 | <@Tarinaky> | During preprocessing your pre-processor directives are 'followed', comments are stripped out etc... and you get some dumb character stream the compiler can try to tokenise and parse. |
| 21:29 | <@Tarinaky> | Disclaimer: Not strictly true because useful error messages are considered a mandatory ffeature now |
| 21:29 | < [R]> | Preprocessor pipes into the compiler (making object files), then the linker links the object files and libraries into a binary. |
| 21:30 | <@Tarinaky> | But yeah. C #include, #ifdef and all the rest are incredibly dumb. |
| 21:30 | | * Azash makes a mental note to just read about this whole process properly |
| 21:30 | <&ToxicFrog> | Azash: (re: programming projects): identify a problem you have. Pick a language. Write a program to solve the problem. Then, clean up and document the program so other people can use it to solve the problem, and release it. Repeat. |
| 21:31 | <@Azash> | ToxicFrog: I've always managed to avoid problems which makes it hard :P But yeah, point taken |
| 21:31 | <@Azash> | Usually I just fall back to things related to my interests, like IRC bots or whatever |
| 21:31 | <&ToxicFrog> | Azash: (re: C compilation process): preprocessor goes first and is basically a dumb find-replace (replace #include with the contents of the file, replace symbols with the text they're #defined as, if something is #if'd out remove it entirely) |
| 21:31 | | * [R] wonders how many IRC programs actually correctly process IRC messages as per the RFC. |
| 21:32 | <&ToxicFrog> | Then the resulting source text gets fed to the compiler, which emits object files (or which emits assembly and then the assembler emits object files). |
| 21:32 | <@Azash> | [R]: Probably also depends on which RFCs you follow |
| 21:32 | <&ToxicFrog> | Then the linker optionally combines those into a program or library. |
| 21:32 | <@Azash> | ToxicFrog: Right, that was clear |
| 21:32 | <@Azash> | Thanks |
| 21:32 | <@Tarinaky> | iirc 'the' irc RFC is 'wrong'. |
| 21:32 | < [R]> | Azash: I'm speaking specifically on how they're serialized. |
| 21:33 | <@Tarinaky> | Can't remember how though. |
| 21:33 | <@Azash> | Ah, right |
| 21:33 | < [R]> | Not the messages themselves, or the arguments. |
| 21:33 | <&ToxicFrog> | Azash: also, how do you avoid problems? |
| 21:33 | < [R]> | Tarinaky: I've read all four, noticed only a typo. |
| 21:33 | < [R]> | However, the SMTP RFC is unimplementable. |
| 21:33 | <@Tarinaky> | Ah, that's the one I must be thinking of then. |
| 21:34 | < [R]> | (In that it requires two mutually exclusive things to be done) |
| 21:34 | <&ToxicFrog> | (my current problems: I want to interact with IFMUD but hate all MUD clients; I want to import my Steam game list into backloggery; I want to be able to navigate my media library with a controller; I want to be able to quickly search Diablo 2 runeword recipes) |
| 21:34 | <@Azash> | ToxicFrog: I'm very mellow and gowiththeflow so I usually don't come to think of things like that |
| 21:35 | <&ToxicFrog> | Aah. |
| 21:35 | <&ToxicFrog> | I have a very low tolerance for tedium and repetition. |
| 21:35 | < [R]> | I wish more programmers were the same. |
| 21:36 | <@Azash> | It's a habit worth picking up |
| 21:36 | <&ToxicFrog> | A lot of the stuff I write is of the class "I'd rather spend an hour writing a program to do this for me than spend half an hour doing it by hand", where "it" is some tedious task like downloading a bunch of individual files or repeatedly filling out a form or categorizing files based on their contents or transcribing text from screenshots. |
| 21:36 | <@Tarinaky> | [R]: Did you see the stack overflow from a few days ago for the Sudoku solver from someone who had a high tolerance for tedium and repetition? :p |
| 21:36 | < [R]> | Yes |
| 21:36 | < [R]> | The loopless one? |
| 21:36 | <@Tarinaky> | Yes. |
| 21:36 | <&ToxicFrog> | I.e. stuff that is entirely possible to do by hand but is excruciatingly boring. |
| 21:37 | <@Tarinaky> | Because loops are O(n) *trollface* |
| 21:38 | <@Azash> | Tarinaky: for(int i=0;i<100;i++) {//do stuff} |
| 21:38 | <@Azash> | What now? ( ââ¿â) |
| 21:38 | < [R]> | Nonononono |
| 21:38 | < [R]> | You're doing that wrong |
| 21:39 | <&ToxicFrog> | Azash: anyways. That's where a lot of my personal programs come from. If you don't have a similar "I'd rather have my robot army do this than do it by hand" impulse I'm not sure what to suggest. |
| 21:39 | < [R]> | for (int i = 0; i < 100; ++i) { switch (i) { case 1: /* do stuff */ break; case 2: /* do stuff */ break; } } |
| 21:39 | <@Tarinaky> | [R]: Stop teaching him Abject-Oriented Programming. |
| 21:39 | <@Azash> | [R]: I think a vein burst in my brain, afk while calling the ambulance |
| 21:39 | <@Azash> | ToxicFrog: Yeah, as said, I should strive to pick that up |
| 21:39 | < [R]> | I tried to figgure out what AOP was about |
| 21:40 | <@Azash> | I won't learn to get annoyed, I think, but at least I could learn to draw inspiration |
| 21:40 | <@Tarinaky> | Satire? |
| 21:40 | < [R]> | Every article was "do it like you'd code an AOP program" |
| 21:40 | < [R]> | That's very useful dipshits. |
| 21:40 | <@Tarinaky> | Every article? |
| 21:40 | <@Tarinaky> | Are we talking about the same thing? |
| 21:40 | < [R]> | Yeah, even wikipedia ones. |
| 21:41 | <@Azash> | Also what [R] wrote I'd rather call ABOP |
| 21:41 | < [R]> | Maybe they've fixed it since then. |
| 21:41 | <@Azash> | Annual bonus-oriented programming |
| 21:41 | <@Tarinaky> | Errr |
| 21:41 | < [R]> | Oh |
| 21:41 | < [R]> | No, we aren't |
| 21:41 | <@Tarinaky> | I've only seen one article for Abject Oriented Programming... it was a parody of Object ", the word abject being a synonym for 'horrible'. |
| 21:41 | <@Tarinaky> | The whole thing was, basically, about anti-patterns. |
| 21:42 | < [R]> | I was thinking of Aspect Oriented Programming |
| 21:43 | <@Tarinaky> | Google abject-oriented programming if you want a giggle. |
| 21:43 | <&jerith> | Azash: Most programmers I know have a very low boredom threshold. |
| 21:43 | <@Tarinaky> | It includes such gems as increasing code re-use through copy+paste |
| 21:43 | <@Azash> | I guess I don't make the cut then :P |
| 21:43 | <@Tarinaky> | [R]: http://typicalprogrammer.com/?p=8 Here |
| 21:44 | <&jerith> | Azash: Most, not all. |
| 21:44 | < [R]> | Code monkeys have no souls, and thus are immune to human qualities such as boredom, fatigue and exhaustion. |
| 21:44 | <@Azash> | [R]: Thanks |
| 21:44 | <@Azash> | I appreciate it |
| 21:46 | <&jerith> | Writing code is more intereting than doing repetetetititive things, so we tend to write the code to do the thing instead of doing it ourselves. |
| 21:47 | <&ToxicFrog> | Azash: a low boredom threshold is not a prerequisite to be a programmer, but having one will drive you to seek better solutions for a lot of common problems, and many of those solutions will be programming-related. |
| 21:47 | <&ToxicFrog> | So I would not be surprised to find that having a low boredom threshold (and an interest in computers) is a good predictor for an interest in programming. |
| 21:47 | <&jerith> | Since we tend to do that a lot, we get a lot of practice writing code to do boring things for us. |
| 21:48 | <&jerith> | If you don't have that natural drive, you'll probably have to put more effort into finding things to write code for. |
| 21:51 | <@Azash> | Mm, if I get bored with something that I have no real interest in working with, I'll just drop it rather than spend my time trying to improve it |
| 21:51 | <@Tarinaky> | "Eric realized, they wanted to use Flash to make... Flash. A non-programmable subset of Flash. The whole day could have been replaced by the CTO just writing Inner-Platform Effect on the whiteboard." |
| 21:51 | <@Tarinaky> | http://thedailywtf.com/Articles/Advanced-Adventures-in-ActionScript.aspx |
| 21:51 | <@Azash> | If it is fairly relevant to my interests, though, yeah I'll work on automating it - I guess I just haven't had a lot of those moments |
| 21:51 | <&ToxicFrog> | Azash: yeah, in my case, it is something that I want to get done |
| 21:52 | <&ToxicFrog> | E.g. I want all my game information in Backloggery, or I wouldn't be working on it in the first place |
| 21:52 | <&ToxicFrog> | But there is no import tool |
| 21:52 | <@Azash> | Exactly |
| 21:52 | < [R]> | Backloggery? |
| 21:52 | <&ToxicFrog> | For someone with a high boredom threshold, the answer is "enter the information for all 500+ games by hand" |
| 21:52 | <@Azash> | Oh lordy no |
| 21:52 | <&ToxicFrog> | My boredom threshold for that happens at around the 5-10 game point, I think. |
| 21:53 | <@Azash> | No, I guess I just haven't come across a lot of those situations, so I should rather work on an instinct that's on the flip side |
| 21:53 | <&ToxicFrog> | End result, steam2backloggery.lua, soon to be replaced with bltool.jar |
| 21:53 | <@Azash> | Like.. "This service/product is great, what kind of stuff can I attach to it?" |
| 23:31 | < simon_> | [R], you say that you wonder how many IRC clients follow the RFC. |
| 23:32 | < [R]> | Servers and bots as well. |
| 23:33 | < simon_> | [R], I know that popular IRC daemon authors went ahead and invented quite a lot of protocol stuff on top of the original one. |
| 23:33 | < simon_> | [R], i.e. server-to-server protocol become RFC-incompliant as one of the first things, since different IRCDs never inter-operated very well. |
| 23:33 | < [R]> | I'm going to clarify here: I'm strictly speaking about the message parsing. |
| 23:34 | < simon_> | [R], as in... how long messages can be? |
| 23:34 | < simon_> | [R], I don't know if there's any commands that can be parsed ambiguously. are you thinking of something like encodings? |
| 23:36 | < simon_> | [R], IRC daemon authors invented a lot of new "numerics", and some of these (even the ones in popular use today) probably have very non-standard formats beyond the first four bytes. |
| 23:36 | < [R]> | As in when to use and not use the second colon, how to handle the prefix and ... OTP |
| 23:37 | < simon_> | [R], I think the colon is interpreted aggressively away in most cases. |
| 23:37 | < simon_> | e.g. even places where a colon is not expected, if it's the last argument, it gets removed. |
| 23:37 | < simon_> | like... NICK :simon |
| 23:38 | | simon_ is now known as simon` |
| 23:38 | < [R]> | Back |
| 23:38 | < simon`> | yup :) |
| 23:38 | < simon`> | /quote NICK :simon` |
| 23:38 | < [R]> | Yes, that's fine (since I know many servers/clients add it even when it's not needed) |
| 23:39 | < [R]> | Example: PINGs from Unreal. |
| 23:39 | < simon`> | right |
| 23:39 | < [R]> | Correct handling of spaces too. |
| 23:39 | < simon`> | so I think the colons (in cases I can think of) are handled by a "lowest common denominator" sort of automatic rule. |
| 23:40 | < simon`> | so you're thinking some clients might not handle "PRIVMSG simon` :Hello World"? |
| 23:40 | < [R]> | Clients/servers |
| 23:41 | < [R]> | A while ago I had an idea to make a testing client/server which would behave as RFC compliant as possible, but send a bunch of edge case messages (sometimes purposely mutating them to do so) |
| 23:42 | < [R]> | Slightly curious how many clients would die to it, or servers kick it off. |
| 23:43 | < [R]> | (There are other edge cases, I just can't remember them all ATM) |
| 23:45 | < simon`> | I've always had the impression that when (popular) IRC-server software is non-RFC-compliant, it is usually to support a more flexible interpretation of the protocol, and when (even some popular) IRC-client software being non-RFC-compliant, it means they have a restricted interpretation and hope that IRC-servers behave. |
| 23:45 | < simon`> | after all, there are lots of IRC clients (even in active use) but quite few IRC daemons in active use. |
| 23:48 | < simon`> | also, I don't recall if IRC server software ever had hard exploits, whereas several of the most popular IRC clients have been abuseable at some point (I remember a bug in BitchX+screen, a DCC-based remote exploit in Eggdrop, and several graphical clients having crash bugs if you send something weird to them. |
| 23:48 | < simon`> | I think also irssi had a bug that was discovered by the developers and never announced. |
| 23:48 | < simon`> | i.e. one that led to remote exploitation. |
| 23:49 | < simon`> | maybe it's because the clients are more complex than the servers. maybe it's the mentality behind writing the different pieces of software. I'm not sure. |
| 23:51 | < [R]> | I think servers have a much more complicated message handling system. |
| 23:51 | < [R]> | But in general, clients tend to have larger code-bases (mostly because GUI code is always bloaty) |
| 23:57 | <@Tarinaky> | simon`: IRC is the philosophy 'be permissive in what you accept, conservative in what you emit' in action. |
| --- Log closed Wed Oct 16 00:00:11 2013 |