| --- Log opened Mon Oct 14 00:00:17 2013 |
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| 03:52 | | * Derakon mutters at gcc, which isn't letting him compile some code because it declares a function and then does not use it (normally a warning, but warnings are being treated as errors). |
| 03:52 | | Kindamoody[zZz] is now known as Kindamoody |
| 03:52 | <&Derakon> | Which would be fine except I'm trying to build a C module for Python. |
| 03:53 | <&Derakon> | So there's no point in it calling its own functions. |
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| 03:53 | <&Derakon> | gcc -fPIC -shared -O2 -std=c99 -Wall -Werror -I/Library/Frameworks/Python.framework/Versions/2.7/include/python2.7 testObjs.c -o testObjs.so |
| 03:53 | <&McMartin> | Yeah, get rid of -Werror =P |
| 03:53 | <&Derakon> | I'd like to think there'd be a better way to handle that. |
| 03:54 | <&Derakon> | In particular I'm curious why this isn't triggered for Pyrel's other C module. |
| 03:54 | <&Derakon> | Which defines but does not call burnHeatMap(). |
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| 03:55 | <&McMartin> | Is it C++? IIRC this isn't a warning in C++. |
| 03:55 | <&Derakon> | I guess I could set -Wno-unused-function. |
| 03:55 | <&Derakon> | Nah, still C. |
| 03:59 | | * Derakon eyes the tutorial for making C modules for Python, feels his eyes glazing over. |
| 03:59 | <&Derakon> | -Wno-unused-function does work in the sense that code compiles, but I clearly still have a lot of mucking about to do if I want this thing to work properly. |
| 04:00 | <&Derakon> | And the tutorial is utter shit. |
| 04:00 | <&Derakon> | Hand me the entire working system, and then break it down into bits. Give me some leeging context here! |
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| 04:07 | <&Derakon> | Also, have frequent points at which you can say "Okay, build this, run it like so, and look! You got a result!" |
| 04:07 | <&Derakon> | Even if that result is wrong in some way (e.g. creates memory leaks). |
| 04:08 | | Turaiel[Offline] is now known as Turaiel |
| 04:09 | <&Derakon> | (As it is, the tutorial is 8k words long and has no complete examples of working systems) |
| 04:09 | <&Derakon> | (At least, not as far as I can tell while skimming) |
| 04:09 | <@Reiv> | Yikes |
| 04:09 | <&Derakon> | Yeah. |
| 04:11 | <~Vornicus> | what's the tutorial for? |
| 04:11 | <&Derakon> | Extending Python with C modules. |
| 04:12 | <~Vornicus> | ah |
| 04:12 | <&Derakon> | Since my pure-Python gamestate serializer takes several seconds to save the game, and I've run out of other ideas for speeding it up. |
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| 04:45 | < Syka_> | Derakon[AFK]: hopefully you're using CFFI, so you can port it to PyPy? |
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| 06:22 | < Harlow> | anyone in here ever use aws (amazon web services) I just have a quick question, if you set up your own server instance do you need to install apache? |
| 06:42 | < [R]> | Probably |
| 06:42 | < [R]> | Unless they have premade LAMP installs |
| 06:51 | < Ogredude> | ToxicFrog: btw justbob says that kanthal and nichrome both form oxides (aluminum and chromium oxide respectively) that are good heat conductors but poor electricity conductors. So the resistance from wire to wire is high enough to keep the juice flowing through the wire |
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| 07:26 | < jeroud> | Harlow: You need to choose a machine image for your EC2 instance. |
| 07:27 | < jeroud> | The recommended way to do it is to start with a basic OS image and pass it a startup script that installs the stuff you need. |
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| 07:30 | < jeroud> | There's also a boot-from-EBS option which gives you a more persistent root filesystem, but that was introduced after I stopped working for AWS. |
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| 11:51 | < RichyB> | from __future__ import unicode_literals; |
| 11:51 | < RichyB> | <3 |
| 11:52 | < RichyB> | That is really the one and only python3 feature that I actually care about. |
| 12:01 | <@froztbyte> | haha |
| 12:03 | <@Tarinaky> | I wish there was a way to include boilerplate/imports from an external file in Python. :x |
| 12:03 | <@Tarinaky> | But that would be the path of madness. |
| 12:04 | <@Tarinaky> | But it /would/ cut down on code-replication. |
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| 12:09 | <@TheWatcher> | Yeah, unless every python file you have imports the same stuff, that'd just be sloppy and nasty |
| 12:10 | <@TheWatcher> | (I must admit that the "from __future__" in python amuses me entirely too much) |
| 12:10 | <@TheWatcher> | ("My code uses features FROM THE GLORIOUS FUTURE OF PROGRAMMING") |
| 12:11 | <@Tarinaky> | I can certainly imagine every python file in a single module importing the same stuff. |
| 12:11 | <@Tarinaky> | Or certainly there existing some subset of the imports being shared. |
| 12:12 | <@Tarinaky> | You can still specialise ontop of that list~ |
| 12:14 | <@TheWatcher> | So can't you have a common "generalimports.py" and then "import generalimports;"? |
| 12:25 | < jeroud> | TheWatcher: Imports are scoped. |
| 12:26 | <@TheWatcher> | Aha |
| 12:27 | < jeroud> | The first time you import a module its code gets executed and the resulting module object gets cached. |
| 12:28 | < jeroud> | Then every import of that module gives you a reference to the module object in whatever namespace the import is in. |
| 12:28 | < jeroud> | (It's a little more complicated than that, but that's the basic idea.) |
| 12:31 | < jeroud> | You *can* share imports by having a module "foo" that imports "bar" and "baz" and then doing "import foo; foo.bar.thing", but that's an egregious violation of the Law of Demeter. |
| 12:31 | < Syka_> | it's also dumb |
| 12:31 | < jeroud> | Also, __future__ imports are special. |
| 12:35 | < jeroud> | If you have a bunch of code arranged as a package full of submodules it's fairly common to have the package __init__.py import things from the submodules so you can say "from foo import Bar" instead of "from foo.bar import Bar". |
| 12:36 | < jeroud> | This is also the standard way to split up a big module without breaking backcompat. |
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| 12:59 | < RichyB> | I object to the use of the word "cached". |
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| 13:00 | < RichyB> | It's not a cache; it isn't valid for the runtime to, say, drop a module to be re-generated later in response to memory pressure, which *would* be valid in the case of a cache. |
| 13:00 | < jeroud> | RichyB: Stashed? |
| 13:00 | < RichyB> | Stashed is an excellent verb. |
| 13:08 | | Cannibal [Cannibal@585280.B1CAF5.E23440.E6E3E6] has joined #code |
| 13:09 | < Cannibal> | Invitation < Only #Code! > http://www.tatuuu.com.br |
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| 13:11 | <@Azash> | Opening that link sounds like a stellar idea |
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| 13:16 | <@froztbyte> | that's what VMs are for |
| 13:16 | <@froztbyte> | Server: Microsoft-IIS/8.0 |
| 13:16 | <@froztbyte> | X-Powered-By: ASP.NET |
| 13:16 | <@froztbyte> | X-Powered-By-Plesk: PleskWin |
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| 15:04 | <@Tarinaky> | http://akvo.org/blog/the-ball-of-mud-transition/ |
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| 16:57 | <@Tarinaky> | http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/ayn_random.png << PRNG jokes. |
| 16:58 | < ErikMesoy> | No, http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/random_number.png . |
| 17:05 | <@gnolam> | Why on Earth are you linking to just the images? |
| 17:06 | <@Tarinaky> | Is there any doubt as to what the source is? |
| 17:10 | | * gnolam headslaps Tarinaky. |
| 17:11 | <@gnolam> | And you also miss alt text, titles, links and so on. |
| 17:14 | <@Tarinaky> | The Alt test was unfunny. |
| 17:14 | <@Tarinaky> | *text |
| 17:25 | <@iospace> | yes and? |
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| 17:25 | <@Tarinaky> | I saw no need to link to it. |
| 17:26 | <&ToxicFrog> | Just because you didn't find it funny doesn't mean no-one will. |
| 17:26 | <@Tarinaky> | I'm not stopping you from going to xkcd.com and looking at the alt-text. |
| 17:26 | <@Tarinaky> | The source of the image is quite clear. |
| 17:27 | < Syka_> | http://xkcd.com/1277/ |
| 17:27 | < Syka_> | here |
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| 18:56 | <@froztbyte> | http://twitter.com/fijall/status/389782873269497856 |
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| 18:58 | < jeroud> | Oh, froztbyte already pasted that tweet. |
| 19:00 | <@froztbyte> | :D |
| 19:00 | <@froztbyte> | I spammed it quite widely |
| 19:01 | <@Azash> | Oh lordy that d-link vuln |
| 19:01 | <@froztbyte> | Hmm |
| 19:02 | <@froztbyte> | I see Azash doesn't know vendors well yet |
| 19:02 | <@froztbyte> | (this kind of thing is common) |
| 19:03 | <@Azash> | Even this tacky and obvious a backdoor? |
| 19:03 | <@Azash> | ToxicFrog: Being XKCD it's quite likely nobody will find it funny |
| 19:07 | <&ToxicFrog> | Azash: what d-link vuln? |
| 19:07 | <@Azash> | http://www.slashgear.com/d-link-router-security-vulnerability-discovered-in-seve ral-models-14301229/ |
| 19:07 | <@Azash> | It's not mentioned there but the vuln is setting your user agent to "xmlset_roodkcableoj28840ybtide" |
| 19:08 | <@Azash> | Reverse it, "edit by 04882 joel backdoor" |
| 19:09 | <&ToxicFrog> | Wow |
| 19:09 | <&ToxicFrog> | So either d-link's code review process is awful or someone managed to commit directly to their repo |
| 19:09 | <@froztbyte> | Azash: yup |
| 19:10 | <@froztbyte> | Mac address of the port being the password |
| 19:10 | <@froztbyte> | Or an md5 of it |
| 19:10 | <@froztbyte> | Etc |
| 19:11 | < [R]> | Nice, 75% of my gateway devices are vulnerable |
| 19:11 | < [R]> | Weee |
| 19:12 | < [R]> | Except not really, since 2 of those have DDWRT, which I'm assuming are immune to that paticular attack. |
| 19:13 | | Kindamoody|out is now known as Kindamoody |
| 19:15 | < Syka> | [R]: one would hope! |
| 19:16 | < Syka> | well i have an unrelated d-link that runs in bridge mode |
| 19:16 | < Syka> | so unless that mikrotik ssh vuln fucks me, i should be ok |
| 19:17 | < Syka> | speaking of, my net /still/ isn't stable |
| 19:18 | < Syka> | froztbyte: if this turns out to be you sshing into my router and resetting the ppp session every so often |
| 19:46 | <@froztbyte> | rofl |
| 19:47 | <@froztbyte> | Syka: seriously though, RMA that fucker |
| 19:47 | < Syka> | froztbyte: i think its my DSL |
| 19:47 | < Syka> | since it dropped out before as well |
| 19:47 | <@froztbyte> | my cust net has 4 people dialling up some PPPoE from 751 and 951's, and they're fine |
| 19:48 | <@froztbyte> | Syka: oh, I meant your wifi thing |
| 19:48 | <@froztbyte> | that d-link should have remote syslog capability |
| 19:49 | < Syka> | froztbyte: oh t |
| 19:49 | < Syka> | the wifi is slightly better now |
| 19:49 | < Syka> | dunno why |
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| 21:02 | <@Tarinaky> | I'm having a derp moment. How do you expand (x+y)^1/2 ? |
| 21:02 | <@Tarinaky> | :/ |
| 21:02 | <@froztbyte> | "expand"? |
| 21:02 | | * Tamber hands Tarinaky a bicycle pump |
| 21:02 | <@froztbyte> | and do you mean (x+y)^0.5 |
| 21:02 | <@Tarinaky> | Yes. |
| 21:02 | <@Tarinaky> | sqrt |
| 21:03 | <@froztbyte> | k |
| 21:03 | <@Tarinaky> | And by expand I mean something of the form sqrt(x)+sqrt(y)+...? |
| 21:03 | <@froztbyte> | I'm still not quite sure what you mean by "expand", though? do you mean to write it up as a broken up version of x and y? |
| 21:04 | <@Tarinaky> | Yeah. |
| 21:04 | <@froztbyte> | iirc it's only the multiplicatives etc which have an easy split |
| 21:04 | <@froztbyte> | it's been a couple of years. |
| 21:05 | <@Tarinaky> | I know... |
| 21:05 | <@Tarinaky> | But either when I expand it some magic hapens that makes this work, or I'll spot how to show it isn't a Norm axiom. |
| 21:05 | <@Tarinaky> | Either way :/ |
| 21:06 | <@froztbyte> | http://www.mathwords.com/s/square_root_rules.htm |
| 21:06 | <@froztbyte> | you can go with something like in the "rationalizing the denominator" step |
| 21:06 | <@froztbyte> | but iirc there is a #math on nightstar as well |
| 21:06 | <@Tarinaky> | There's no-one there who isn't in here. |
| 21:08 | <@Tarinaky> | Okay, lets go about this from the other side. |
| 21:09 | <@Tarinaky> | I have F:R3->R, F((x1,x2,x3))=(|x1|^1/2 + |x2|^1/2 + |x3|^1/2)^2 |
| 21:10 | <@Tarinaky> | I must show that it is, or is not, a norm axiom. |
| 21:10 | <@froztbyte> | I don't know what a norm axiom is |
| 21:10 | | * froztbyte math'd in afrikaans |
| 21:11 | <@Tarinaky> | Err |
| 21:11 | <@Tarinaky> | Is or is not a norm. |
| 21:11 | <@Tarinaky> | By using the norm axioms. |
| 21:11 | <@Tarinaky> | It has pwoers, so I tried axiom 2, but F(aX) = aF(X) :/ |
| 21:11 | <@Tarinaky> | Unless I missed something. |
| 21:11 | <@froztbyte> | oh wait |
| 21:11 | <@froztbyte> | this is lin? |
| 21:12 | <@froztbyte> | (lin algebra) |
| 21:12 | < ErikMesoy> | A mapping from R^3 to R, equal to the square of the sums of the roots? |
| 21:12 | <@Tarinaky> | Course is called Norms and Differential Equations. |
| 21:12 | <@froztbyte> | yeah, that's lin |
| 21:12 | | * froztbyte bails out |
| 21:12 | <@froztbyte> | I haven't done any lin in about 9 years, so I won't be helpful |
| 21:13 | <@Tarinaky> | Axiom 3 is that F(X+Y) = F(X) + F(Y) |
| 21:13 | <@Tarinaky> | iirc. |
| 21:13 | < ErikMesoy> | You want to show that the mapping is additive, multiplicative, and what's the third thing? |
| 21:14 | <@Tarinaky> | Axiom 1 is that F(X) >= 0, and F(X) = 0 iff X=0 |
| 21:14 | < ErikMesoy> | Well that seems fairly straightforwards. |
| 21:16 | <@Tarinaky> | I'm not sure what to do for this F though :/ |
| 21:16 | <@Tarinaky> | I can show 1 and 2 are true. |
| 21:16 | <@Tarinaky> | But I can't show 3 :/ |
| 21:17 | < ErikMesoy> | Write it in terms of Y = nX. |
| 21:17 | < ErikMesoy> | Then check whether F(X) + F(nX) works out to F((n+1)X). |
| 21:17 | < ErikMesoy> | You will need n1, n2 and n3. |
| 21:18 | <@Tarinaky> | But what about Y that isn't nX? :/ |
| 21:18 | < ErikMesoy> | Set n = Y/X |
| 21:19 | < ErikMesoy> | [and do a separate trivial proof that F(X)+F(0) = F(X+0), of course] |
| 21:19 | <@Tarinaky> | What if X=(1,0,0) and Y=(0,1,0). What value of n makes Y=nX? |
| 21:20 | <@Tarinaky> | (Pick any basis in R3 you like >.>) |
| 21:21 | | * Tarinaky is using capital X,Y for vectors and little x,y for the components because he can't underline on IRC. |
| 21:21 | < RichyB> | Tarinaky, surely F(x, y, z) = (sqrt(x) + sqrt(y) + sqrt(z)) can't be a norm. Axiom 3 is violated. F((1, 0, 0) + (1, 0, 0)) is 1.414. F(1, 0, 0) + F(1, 0, 0) is 2. Did I mis-understand your question? |
| 21:21 | < ErikMesoy> | RichyB: You missed a square. |
| 21:21 | < RichyB> | oh, I missed the ^2 at the end. |
| 21:21 | <@Tarinaky> | RichyB: I am unsure how to recognise and show that axiom 3 is broken without asking strangers on IRC. |
| 21:23 | < ErikMesoy> | Mumble. What's the elegant way of doing this? |
| 21:24 | <@Tarinaky> | ErikMesoy: I'm surprised you didn't make a snarky comment by suggesting a Matrix n :p |
| 21:25 | <@Tarinaky> | But then I would have had to hit you. |
| 21:25 | <@Tarinaky> | brb |
| 21:28 | < ErikMesoy> | Hmm, trying to visualize this. It's something similar to: x, y and z are the lengths of three orthogonal egdes of a box, and F maps from edges to volume. |
| 21:28 | < ErikMesoy> | Except I need a few sqrt() and ^2 thrown in somewhere. |
| 21:32 | <@Tarinaky> | Based on its placement on the question sheet I'm surprised it doesn't violate axiom 2... |
| 21:35 | <@Tarinaky> | Ah! |
| 21:36 | <@Tarinaky> | I misremembered axiom 3! |
| 21:36 | <@Tarinaky> | That's my problem! |
| 21:36 | | ErikMesoy is now known as ErikMesoy|sleep |
| 21:36 | <@Tarinaky> | "p(u + v) โค p(u) + p(v) (triangle inequality or subadditivity)." (from wikipedia) |
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| 22:50 | <&Derakon> | Quick question for more hardware-y folks here: is there anything especially specific to the hardware in a computer that allows it to run a 64-bit OS? Like, do you need a special CPU or anything? |
| 22:51 | <@Namegduf> | Yes, you need a CPU with a 64-bit architecture. |
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| 22:52 | <&Derakon> | Right, thanks. |
| 22:52 | <&Derakon> | ...in retrospect that seems obvious, but alas. |
| 22:52 | <&Derakon> | My brain is operating at about 60% nominal right now, I think |
| 22:53 | | * AnnoDomini will parse suggestions to switch to a 64bit OS as suggestions to buy new hardware. :P |
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| 22:54 | <&Derakon> | Actually, this is more "We have a system that might be malfunctioning on 64-bit OSen; will setting up one of those computers to dual-boot to 32-bit necessarily dodge the problem?" |
| 22:55 | <&ToxicFrog> | Derakon: that depends on why it's malfunctioning, really. |
| 22:56 | <&ToxicFrog> | The most likely reason, though, is that it's doing something 64-bit unclean (like casting between int and void*), in which case running a 32-bit version should "fix" it. |
| 22:56 | <&ToxicFrog> | Although I wouldn't expect you to have to boot into a 32-bit OS; just running a 32-bit version of the program should suffice. |
| 23:00 | <&McMartin> | Unless it's a device driver. |
| 23:01 | <&ToxicFrog> | Aah, point |
| 23:16 | <&Derakon> | Device driver is a strong contender. |
| 23:16 | <&Derakon> | We're dealing with a camera here. |
| 23:17 | <&Derakon> | And the weird behavior we're seeing is stuff like "image data comes off of PCI card at normal rate, but rate at which image data is written to disk and/or to the network is severely degraded...and the degradation stops as soon as image data stops coming off the card." |
| 23:20 | | * Derakon eyes Python. |
| 23:20 | <&Derakon> | Since when does doing float('') raise an exception? |
| 23:20 | <&Derakon> | I mean, it's doing it in all of my interpreters but I seem to remember being able to blindly do that in the past... |
| 23:20 | < [R]> | P3 != P2 |
| 23:21 | <&Derakon> | I've yet to work in Python 3. |
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| --- Log closed Tue Oct 15 00:00:32 2013 |