| --- Log opened Thu Sep 19 00:00:25 2013 |
| --- Day changed Thu Sep 19 2013 |
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| 02:08 | <&McMartin> | Oh man, I'm a bad person |
| 02:08 | | * McMartin reorders basic blocks in this assembler code to shave six bytes off. |
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| 02:14 | <@Azash> | There are many ways to define it but yours is neat |
| 02:15 | <&McMartin> | Is that at me? |
| 02:15 | <@Azash> | Yeah |
| 02:15 | <&McMartin> | Now, the code is "bad" to begin with |
| 02:16 | <&McMartin> | I just realized that I can also reorganize them so that all branches respect standard control structure |
| 02:16 | <&McMartin> | But I can elide some jump instructions because I have an IF-THEN right before a WHILE, more or less... |
| 02:16 | <&McMartin> | ... and then there's another IF inside the WHILE. |
| 02:17 | <&McMartin> | I can actually organize it so that the THEN clause of the if points to space between the WHILE and have it fall through. |
| 02:17 | <@Azash> | What are you working on? |
| 02:17 | <@Azash> | Nice |
| 02:17 | <&McMartin> | (A lot of these IFs result in an immediate function exit) |
| 02:17 | <&McMartin> | Music engine for the VIC-20. >_> |
| 02:18 | <@Azash> | Ooh, nice |
| 02:18 | <&McMartin> | It's super-basic, but I think I've just gotten it down to 159 bytes. |
| 02:18 | <&McMartin> | With this optimization. |
| 02:18 | <@Azash> | ^_Ë |
| 02:19 | | * McMartin has named it SoundNaif. |
| 02:20 | <&McMartin> | Sadly, this design doesn't convert well to the C64. The VIC's sound chip is so primitive that there's a lot of "empty space" I don't need to manage. |
| 02:20 | <@Azash> | Come up with an initialism for MUCHADO |
| 02:20 | <&McMartin> | Because it's About Nothing? |
| 02:21 | <&McMartin> | Oh man |
| 02:21 | <&McMartin> | I wonder if Rennaissance Chiptunes would even work |
| 02:21 | <@Azash> | I was alluding to the tiny size of it |
| 02:21 | <&McMartin> | (I have it playing meth-addled Bach now as its test suite) |
| 02:21 | <&McMartin> | Sadly, this is Kind Of Big |
| 02:21 | <&McMartin> | People that do sound-chip-abusingly-awesome players have fit their player and their songs into 100 bytes |
| 02:22 | <&McMartin> | I can't compete with the best of the demoscene~ |
| 02:22 | <@Azash> | Ah |
| 02:22 | <@Azash> | Well, you have to start somewhere, right? :P |
| 02:22 | <&McMartin> | Yes, but that's also why a first effort has a more humble name >_> |
| 02:26 | <&McMartin> | But I'm a little concerned about complexity |
| 02:26 | <&McMartin> | Because this minuet is only, well, about a minute long |
| 02:26 | <&McMartin> | And it's a half-kilobyte of data |
| 02:26 | <&McMartin> | If I'm supposed to be surreptitiously added to another program here, that's a hefty footprint. |
| 02:27 | <&McMartin> | (The VIC-20 has all of 3.5KB of usable RAM) |
| 02:27 | <@Azash> | McMartin: If the instruction can jump by relative address, is there any way for you to use obscure XOR magic to amalgate jumps into less commands overall? |
| 02:27 | <&McMartin> | Only conditionals can do that, so while you can do this to save one byte per if you know for a fact a certain flag is a certain way... |
| 02:28 | <&McMartin> | ... the reordering thing lets me *eliminate jumps entirely*, which is always gonna be best. |
| 02:28 | <@Azash> | True |
| 02:28 | <&McMartin> | XOR magics don't work on the 6502 because register pressure is too high, more or less. |
| 02:29 | <@Azash> | Ah, right |
| 02:30 | <&McMartin> | (Also, this branch of the chip is BRA-less) |
| 02:30 | <&McMartin> | I think only the Honeywells had that. |
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| 04:28 | <&McMartin> | OK, that optimization pass ultimately managed to trim off 46 bytes of filesize and 75 bytes off of runtime footprint. |
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| 04:29 | <@Azash> | Nice! |
| 04:30 | <&McMartin> | There are some disadvantages, but for what I think the main application is going to be, that won't be a problem. |
| 04:30 | <&McMartin> | The biggest disadvantage is that I removed the init code entirely, moving .bss into the file itself and preloading it with hardcoded init values. |
| 04:31 | <&McMartin> | So I lose the ability to switch between multiple songs and I lose the ability to start the song over from scratch if you quit and then restart the program. |
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| 04:31 | <&McMartin> | But for "I need a thing that plays a background music for my demo" that's a perfectly valid set of things to sacrifice. |
| 04:31 | | Kindamoody[zZz] is now known as Kindamoody |
| 04:32 | <@Reiv> | If you quit and restart the program, why would it not restart the song? |
| 04:34 | <&McMartin> | Because the variables that track where you are in the song are set by the act of loading the program and are modified in place. |
| 04:35 | <&McMartin> | Remember, this is an old micro. When a program quits back to BASIC it doesn't leave memory. |
| 04:35 | <&McMartin> | You can edit or list it or whatever at will. |
| 04:35 | <&McMartin> | And so RUN leaves the memory in the state it was in, basically going back to the beginning of the program. |
| 04:36 | <&McMartin> | And I ripped out the part that says "copy sensible initial values into these locations that you will then use as your state" |
| 04:36 | <&McMartin> | And instead says "just use that place where the sensible initial values were kept *as* the state" |
| 04:38 | <&McMartin> | If you *reload the program from disk or tape* then it will restart the song. |
| 04:38 | <&McMartin> | But there's no code anymore for "set the playback pointer to the beginning of the song" |
| 04:38 | <@Reiv> | Aaaah. |
| 04:38 | <@Reiv> | And doing so would be heavy on the bytes. |
| 04:38 | <&McMartin> | That's about 75 bytes of stuff, yeah |
| 04:38 | <@Reiv> | That's a lot of bytes. |
| 04:39 | <&McMartin> | 67 bytes for the code, and then eight for having to have a way of saying "this is the song that you should load in" |
| 04:39 | <&McMartin> | Then the actual state - "where am I in this song" - is 29 bytes. |
| 04:39 | <&McMartin> | That didn't used to be in the file, I just said "use some RAM I didn't load into to keep this stuff" |
| 04:39 | <&McMartin> | But while running you're still paying double price for initial and later. |
| 04:40 | <&McMartin> | That's totally fine on, like, a C64 |
| 04:40 | <&McMartin> | But this particular computer only has 3.5KB of space. |
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| 04:40 | <&McMartin> | 75 bytes is *a lot* |
| 04:41 | <&McMartin> | And then I also managed to trim out 6 bytes just by reorganizing the code, which made a couple of instructions entirely redunant |
| 04:41 | <&McMartin> | Basically, if I reordered some stuff the code looked like... |
| 04:41 | <&McMartin> | 10 PRINT "DO STUFF" |
| 04:41 | <&McMartin> | 20 GOTO 30 |
| 04:41 | <&McMartin> | 30 PRINT "DO OTHER STUFF" |
| 04:41 | <&McMartin> | And hey, I can just drop line 20~ |
| 04:42 | <@Reiv> | yeah |
| 04:42 | <&McMartin> | (The "do stuff" includes a bunch of IFs and WHILEs, so it was not immediately obvious that you could drop it like in this example) |
| 04:42 | <@Reiv> | So any further savings would be architectural in nature? |
| 04:42 | <&McMartin> | p. much |
| 04:42 | <&McMartin> | I'm happy with the player now |
| 04:42 | <&McMartin> | Now I need to actually compose some stuff. >_> |
| 04:43 | <&McMartin> | For I have been challenged to write a chiptune! |
| 04:43 | <@Reiv> | Are you competing with the best of 'em yet? |
| 04:44 | <&McMartin> | Ahahaha, not even close |
| 04:44 | <@Reiv> | Feed your program its own source code |
| 04:44 | <&McMartin> | I'm aiming for "fail to embarass self" |
| 04:44 | <@Reiv> | Make it musically brilliant |
| 04:44 | <&McMartin> | That would be terrible |
| 04:44 | <@Reiv> | Victory |
| 04:44 | <&McMartin> | In part because literally half of all values you can send in are rests |
| 04:45 | <&McMartin> | Also, because my work here would not be the focus of the program it was made part of |
| 04:45 | <&McMartin> | This *also* means I have to use a different assembler than the one I prefer. |
| 04:45 | <&McMartin> | One that misses features I like a lot =( |
| 04:45 | <&McMartin> | But I've managed to do the translation to it, so oh well |
| 04:45 | <@Reiv> | ....BIP!....BOP!... ... ... BIP! |
| 04:45 | <&McMartin> | Yeah, no thanks~ |
| 04:46 | <&McMartin> | Unfortunately, the chiptune I've had running through my head lately has already been composed by someone else~ |
| 04:46 | <&McMartin> | And I'm also not sure what kind of tempo the dude wants |
| 04:47 | <&McMartin> | (Said chiptune is http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NiAgWhgp_mw ) |
| 04:47 | <&McMartin> | (My engine does not have frame-level appregios or pitch bends, in part due to the hilariously grim limits on the VIC-20 sound chip) |
| 04:48 | <&McMartin> | (It only has seven bits to store the frequency, and on the high end you actually have bumping the value by one moving you more than a half-step.) |
| 04:48 | <&McMartin> | (So all VIC-20 chiptunes are slightly out of tune.) |
| 04:49 | <@Reiv> | Can you force that out of it~ |
| 05:04 | <@celticminstrel> | Geh, I can't figure out which CSS rule is causing paragraphs to have an indent on the first line... :| |
| 05:06 | <@celticminstrel> | Trying to get rid of it because while it's nice for paragraphs it's also showing up in undesirable places, such as list items or code stretches. |
| 05:07 | <&McMartin> | Reiv: Can "one" - yes, but not in a hundred bytes while doing something else |
| 05:07 | <&McMartin> | Can I? No. I started doing VIC work yesterday~ |
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| 05:09 | <@celticminstrel> | And Firefox's inspect doesn't seem to be useful since first line is not a real element... |
| 05:09 | <@celticminstrel> | ... |
| 05:10 | <@celticminstrel> | There's a text-indent attribtue... |
| 05:10 | <@celticminstrel> | <_< |
| 05:10 | <@Reiv> | McMartin: So basically your goal here is 'lightweight as possible, so the other dudes can do their own magic'? |
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| 05:21 | <&McMartin> | Yeah |
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| 05:54 | < Syka> | internet is shitstorming |
| 05:54 | < Syka> | heh |
| 05:55 | < Syka> | hmm |
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| 10:31 | < xybre> | Is it just me getting disconnected randomly? |
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| 10:34 | <&McMartin> | No |
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| 21:23 | | * Derakon blehs at the microscope. |
| 21:23 | <&Derakon> | I tell it to do something 20 times in a row, it very consistently does it 15 times properly and then 5 times wrong. |
| 21:24 | <&Derakon> | There's clearly something different about those last five times, but damned if I can figure out what it is... |
| 22:13 | <&Derakon> | The especially annoying part is that if I make a smaller control script to just do those things, it works flawlessly every time, so some aspect of the greater system is interfering, and I've no idea what it is. |
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| 22:27 | <&Derakon> | Argh, how can a component behave differently when there is literally no difference in how it's bein invoked? >.< |
| 22:27 | < ToxicFrog> | to the strace and/or wireshark as appropriate? |
| 22:28 | <&Derakon> | I don't suspect network shenanigans here; I have logging on both sides of the connection. |
| 22:28 | <&Derakon> | This is main program telling program on secondary computer to tell hardware to do something. |
| 22:29 | <&Derakon> | And when I do this within the main program's normal framework, we get 15 perfect executions and 5 fuckups. |
| 22:29 | <&Derakon> | When I run it from a special debugging function, I get 20 perfect executions. |
| 22:30 | <&Derakon> | So clearly the special debugging function is different in some important way, but I'm logging everything the secondary computer is doing and AFAICT there's no difference. |
| 22:30 | < ToxicFrog> | How is it telling the hardware to do the thing |
| 22:30 | < ToxicFrog> | ? |
| 22:31 | <&Derakon> | Python -> C++ -> third-party library -> PCI card. |
| 22:32 | <&Derakon> | (The hardware in question is a DSP card that we just tell to send certain outputs along its digital and analog output lines, with specific timings; the issue is that it is ignoring analog actions starting with rep #16) |
| 22:33 | <&Derakon> | There is, admittedly, a difference in the exact actions we tell it to perform at rep #16; a rounding error causes an action that used to be performed at the end of the previous rep now occurs at the beginning of the current rep. |
| 22:34 | <&Derakon> | But, again, works fine when run in a special debugging function that just mimics all the calls to that secondary computer. |
| 22:37 | <&McMartin> | In other news, bleh |
| 22:37 | <&McMartin> | xa65 is a kind of annoying assembler to use |
| 22:38 | <&McMartin> | Clearly solving the same problems as Ophis, but his solutions were all different enough that translating between the two is hard~ |
| 22:38 | <&McMartin> | It's more mainstream in its decisions, but the mainstream was wrong |
| 22:38 | | * Derakon blarghs, determines that his conscious mind is out of ideas. |
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| --- Log closed Fri Sep 20 00:00:08 2013 |