| --- Log opened Thu Aug 22 00:00:09 2013 |
| --- Day changed Thu Aug 22 2013 |
| 00:00 | | You're now known as TheWatcher[T-2] |
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| 00:16 | | thalass [thalass@Nightstar-de48278f.bigpond.net.au] has joined #code |
| 00:25 | <@Reiv> | TF: ... I thought you knew Haskell? |
| 00:25 | <@Reiv> | Now your work is teaching you Haskell? |
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| 00:54 | <&ToxicFrog> | Reiv: I've dabbled in it, but never more. |
| 00:55 | <&ToxicFrog> | This week is a teaching week; there are lectures. I signed up for the all-day Haskell. |
| 00:56 | <&ToxicFrog> | It's not one of the Officially Blessed Languages, but we do have a bunch of Haskellers and some not insignificant internal tools using it. |
| 00:57 | <&McMartin> | There was a paper about that, and python integration therewith, I linked in here a few weeks back |
| 00:57 | <&McMartin> | I think it's also linked from haskell.org; it's a Google whitepaper |
| 00:58 | <@Reiv> | I'm not suprised. |
| 00:58 | <@Reiv> | Haskell is one of those languages that is really funky, but *really awesome* in the right places and the right times |
| 01:19 | | Derakon[AFK] is now known as Derakon |
| 01:20 | <&Derakon> | Every once in awhile I feel guilty for not learning more languages. |
| 01:20 | <&Derakon> | But generally when I'm in a mood to program, I have specific goals in mind that are part of large projects. |
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| 01:26 | <&ToxicFrog> | One of the local experts described learning Haskell as "it's like tipping over a vending machine - body-slamming it won't do anything, but keep rocking it back and forth and sudden, in a flash of insight, it falls over and crushes you^W^W^W^W^W^Wyou get it." |
| 01:27 | <&Derakon> | Heh. |
| 01:30 | <&McMartin> | That's more or less how I came to terms with call/cc |
| 01:30 | | * Derakon eyes the Wikipedia article. |
| 01:31 | <&Derakon> | I should read "factorial n | n > 0 = ..." as "factorial of n, if n is 0, is defined as ...". |
| 01:31 | <&Derakon> | Er, "if n is greater than 0" |
| 01:32 | <&McMartin> | Yeah |
| 01:32 | <&McMartin> | Or "such that" |
| 01:33 | <&McMartin> | It's more interesting when you mix it with argument destructuring |
| 01:34 | <&McMartin> | Because then you can say "if the argument is a list of at least four elements where this condition holds with respect to those four elements..." |
| 01:34 | <&McMartin> | And then only pay the cost of extracting those elements if the previous cases already failed |
| 01:34 | <&Derakon> | That's some expressive argument pattern-matching. |
| 01:37 | <&Derakon> | Given that Haskell has been around for so long, why does it seem like it's only recently started getting traction? |
| 01:37 | <@Azash> | Internet |
| 01:38 | <@Azash> | Also I'd wager LYAHFGG did a lot |
| 01:38 | <&Derakon> | The Internet has been a Thing among software developers for at least 15 years. |
| 01:38 | <@Azash> | I mean, everyone I know who does Haskell started with that |
| 01:38 | <&Derakon> | EAP? |
| 01:38 | <&ToxicFrog> | Learn You A Haskell For Great Good. |
| 01:38 | <&ToxicFrog> | A book. |
| 01:38 | <&Derakon> | ...ah |
| 01:39 | <@Azash> | Derakon: Sure, but the emergence of the internet and the ubiquity of computers also had the field see a massive expansion |
| 01:39 | <&ToxicFrog> | That and Real World Haskell probably helped, also greater awareness of the fact that C++ is not the be-all and end-all of everything and of how useful immutability is when targeting multicore systems |
| 01:39 | <&Derakon> | Azash: yeah, I'm saying that the Internet has been Emerged for ages. |
| 01:39 | | * Azash shrugs |
| 01:39 | <&Derakon> | The book, and utility for multicore development, are good reasons though. |
| 01:40 | <&McMartin> | Yeah, actually, multicore plausibility was really brought out by Erlang. |
| 01:41 | <&McMartin> | I think Erlang was the first seriously industrial use of FP. |
| 01:41 | <~Vornicus> | I've never heard anything good about Learn You A Haskell actually |
| 01:41 | <&McMartin> | I found it trite and obnoxious~ |
| 01:41 | <@Azash> | At least it beats the python book |
| 01:42 | <@Azash> | What's it called, learn X the hard way? |
| 01:42 | <@Azash> | The author's attitude had me closing the tab before I got to the first step |
| 01:42 | <&McMartin> | Python's official tutorial is still the best introduction to the language. |
| 01:45 | <&ToxicFrog> | McMartin: so did I. That said, it is popular. |
| 01:45 | <&ToxicFrog> | So is Ruby, and every tutorial for that language is trite and obnoxious (and incredibly smug) |
| 01:46 | <&McMartin> | This is why I still don't know RUby |
| 01:46 | <&McMartin> | They all rapidly devolved into "Look at how easy it is to solve problem X!" |
| 01:46 | <&McMartin> | (line noise that makes Perl look clear) |
| 01:46 | <&McMartin> | "I don't even have to explain this because everything is so self-evident!" |
| 01:46 | <@Azash> | I'm kind of embarrassed to say why I gave up learning Ruby |
| 01:46 | <@Azash> | But uh |
| 01:47 | <@Azash> | I never understood how to use the gem installer |
| 01:53 | <&ToxicFrog> | McMartin: likewise. |
| 01:53 | <&ToxicFrog> | With a healthy dose of sneering at other, less intuitive languages. |
| 01:53 | <&McMartin> | Also, what I've learned of its structure tells me it's no better than Python in termso f power. |
| 01:53 | <~Vornicus> | I gave up on Ruby because the much-touted Don't Repeat Yourself came up really, really empty. |
| 01:53 | <&McMartin> | At some point I should write my pro-Python polemic. |
| 01:56 | <&ToxicFrog> | To be fair, I would gladly take "no better than Python in terms of power" if it came with other improvements. |
| 01:58 | <&McMartin> | Except it's slower and more opaque |
| 01:58 | <&ToxicFrog> | Well, yes |
| 01:58 | <&ToxicFrog> | Note the "if |
| 01:58 | <&ToxicFrog> | "; I'm not saying that Ruby is that language. |
| 01:58 | <&McMartin> | Yeah |
| 02:03 | < [R]> | Wow, ~40% of BB's Apps are by one developer, they're claiming to have over 120k. |
| 02:03 | < [R]> | Yeah... |
| 02:03 | <&McMartin> | BB? |
| 02:04 | <&Derakon> | Blackberry. |
| 02:04 | <&McMartin> | Ah |
| 02:06 | < [R]> | That company thing that's up for sale. |
| 02:06 | < [R]> | Honestly I hope either Apple or Google nabs them. |
| 02:06 | | * McMartin nods |
| 02:07 | <&McMartin> | Given that they've recently fallen being MS... |
| 02:07 | < [R]> | Apple so they have a UI that isn't fucking stupid. Google for some reason I forgot already. |
| 02:07 | <&McMartin> | That's falling really far. |
| 02:07 | < [R]> | s/being/behind/? |
| 02:08 | <&McMartin> | Er. Yes. |
| 02:08 | <&ToxicFrog> | RIM got way ahead because they basically invented the smartphone as we know it. |
| 02:09 | <@Reiv> | They then stagnated during the rise of the Smartphone With Fancy Screen, and couldn't catch up. |
| 02:09 | <@Reiv> | Worse, they then /tried/ to catch up; they should really have gone for a securised Android or something. |
| 02:09 | <&ToxicFrog> | The problem is that they then just sat there with a hideously broken internal development process and a completely insane deployment architecture and a platform that is less fun to develop for than hitting yourself in the groin with a tack hammer for days at a time. |
| 02:09 | <@Reiv> | Hell, I'd be quite tempted by a securised android. |
| 02:10 | <&ToxicFrog> | While Apple et al showed up with a development platform that doesn't cause 3d20 sanity damage and superior hardware. |
| 02:10 | <@Reiv> | "It's all the tasty Android Flavor, and your phone encrypts all messages sent from Blackberry Messaging to other Blackberrys!" |
| 02:10 | <&ToxicFrog> | RIM had an edge in the enterprise space for a while because their phones were easier for corporate to lock down, but you can do that with Android and iOS these days too. |
| 02:11 | <@Reiv> | Bam, presto, that and some proper security profiles (Which hell, Android does now too, so just tighten up the 'corporate' side of things and off you go), and you've got a phone you could actually sell to an enterprise. |
| 02:12 | <@Reiv> | Trying to bring out The Fourth Holy Smartphone OS was suicide, and they should've been able to /tell/ it was Suicide given the MS reception to date. |
| 02:12 | < [R]> | There's a Third Holy Smartphone OS? |
| 02:12 | <@Reiv> | "Hey guys, just having a decent OS on your phones is not enough to get market share. To get market share, you need to have... um... market share? Welp." |
| 02:13 | <@Reiv> | R: The Microsoft smartphone windows thingy is actually Genuinely Decent. |
| 02:13 | | Derakon is now known as Derakon[AFK] |
| 02:13 | <@Reiv> | They fuck up horribly when they try to make it the same OS that all their PCs use too, of course, but the Metro stuff is actually really nice on a phone; alas, it turns out 'is the OS decent' is not actually enough to get market traction. |
| 02:14 | < [R]> | Reiv: I was making a joke about their non-existant marketshare. |
| 02:14 | <&McMartin> | They're at about 3.5% which puts them in third place, IIRC. |
| 02:14 | <&McMartin> | I'm pretty confident about the third place - them dislodging RIM there was Big News - I'm less confident about the exact percentage |
| 02:15 | <@Reiv> | (And I'm saying Android mostly because you can get the code and hack at it, and join the alliance ascendant and, well, y'know. You'd have a functional OS with recognised marketshare, and still have the 'blackberries are for security' cachet as your gimmick in a market, which is honestly probably a decent place to be vs Samsung et al) |
| 02:15 | <@Reiv> | McMartin: It's around that number, yeah. |
| 02:16 | <@Reiv> | And yeah, when you can see that Microsoft can't get traction in the OS war, with an /actually good/ OS on offer... you don't bother trying to be another little dog yourself. |
| 02:17 | <@Reiv> | (No, really. It's not bad! It's just that it's not Android or Iphone, and it arrived two years too late to compete.) |
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| 03:38 | <&ToxicFrog> | death to xml |
| 03:38 | <&ToxicFrog> | and html |
| 03:40 | <&McMartin> | While I am sympathetic, does something in particular bring this up? |
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| 03:43 | <&ToxicFrog> | McMartin: I'm rewriting Steam2Backloggery in clojure. |
| 03:43 | <&McMartin> | ...that'll do it |
| 03:51 | <&ToxicFrog> | Hmm. |
| 03:51 | <&ToxicFrog> | Crouton returns the AST in a form that xml-seq understands, but only works on slurpables. Strings aren't slurpable. |
| 03:51 | <&ToxicFrog> | clj-tagsoup works on anything, but returns the AST in Hiccup format. |
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| 13:16 | <@TheWatcher> | Anyone here talk ruby? |
| 13:16 | <~Vornicus> | I try to avoid it. |
| 13:19 | <@TheWatcher> | I'm trying to work out how the everliving hell to get gitlab to authenticate over LDAP with STARTTLS |
| 13:19 | <@TheWatcher> | the documentation is a pile of useless shit |
| 13:19 | <~Vornicus> | ...Ruby /and/ LDAP |
| 13:20 | <@TheWatcher> | Oh, you don't even want to go near the rest |
| 13:20 | <~Vornicus> | You have just described the majority of my IT trauma. |
| 13:20 | < Syka> | gitlab is ruby? |
| 13:20 | < Syka> | why is everything ruby? |
| 13:20 | < Syka> | :( |
| 13:20 | <~Vornicus> | Because people like Chunky Bacon |
| 13:20 | <@TheWatcher> | gitlab is a hilarious mix of ruby, python, and shell scripts |
| 13:21 | < Syka> | :((((( |
| 13:22 | <@TheWatcher> | https://github.com/gitlabhq/gitlabhq/blob/master/config/gitlab.yml.example#L95 - that's pretty much all the documentation you get for it |
| 13:26 | <@TheWatcher> | I *think* I can just pass "tls" as the method there, via https://github.com/gitlabhq/omniauth-ldap/blob/master/lib/omniauth-ldap/adaptor. rb#L21 but argh |
| 13:26 | <@TheWatcher> | get it wrong, and I'm sending fucking user's details across the lan unencrypted |
| 13:26 | <@TheWatcher> | This is why I hate, hate STARTTLS. |
| 13:32 | <@Tamber> | :/ |
| 13:44 | <@TheWatcher> | How the fuck do I get this thing to give me any useful debugging output whatsoever? ARGH |
| 13:49 | <@TheWatcher> | *the only* error this is outputting is "Invalid credentials" |
| 13:54 | < AnnoDomini> | Flash your NSA ID at it. |
| 13:54 | <@Tamber> | Show it your badge! |
| 13:55 | <@froztbyte> | <Syka> why is everything ruby? |
| 13:55 | <@froztbyte> | popularity contest |
| 13:56 | <@froztbyte> | upside of ruby is that it's easy to learn |
| 13:56 | <@froztbyte> | downside of ruby is that people don't learn much beyond it |
| 14:01 | <@froztbyte> | (not quite, but close enough) |
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| 14:07 | <@TheWatcher> | FFS, it should not be this fucking hard |
| 14:08 | <@froztbyte> | I don't know why, but people always fuck up LDAP |
| 14:08 | <@froztbyte> | openldap is hardly a good thing, too |
| 14:08 | <@TheWatcher> | situation is this: |
| 14:09 | <@TheWatcher> | server called xerxes, has gitlab installed, ldap set up to authenticate users against edir.blablabla, port 636, method ssl. All works |
| 14:10 | <@TheWatcher> | server called gitlab, has gitlab installed, but because IT services are a bunch of incompetent muppets, I can't authenticate against edir.blabla off there |
| 14:10 | <@froztbyte> | this is going to sound cynical, but I bet the gitlab folks didn't even bother to write good logging code, and I bet that based on experience |
| 14:10 | <@froztbyte> | also debugging it might be a pile of cocks |
| 14:10 | <@froztbyte> | I'd try to fire up irb |
| 14:10 | <@froztbyte> | require in all the various shit |
| 14:10 | <@froztbyte> | and then try to fire the methods off manually from irb to see what's potting |
| 14:11 | <@TheWatcher> | so I need to use ldap.blabla. except that ldap.blabla doesn't support ldaps:// it only supports ldap:// with STARTTLS |
| 14:11 | <@TheWatcher> | can I get it to work? Can I fuck. |
| 14:11 | <@TheWatcher> | ldapsearch -ZZZ -h ldap.blabla -b '....' 'uid=me' works perfectly |
| 14:12 | <@TheWatcher> | And yeah, this is what I get in the log "Processing by OmniauthCallbacksController#failure as HTML PArameters: {nothing useful at all}" |
| 14:13 | <@froztbyte> | hehe |
| 14:13 | <@froztbyte> | yeah |
| 14:13 | <@froztbyte> | irb that bitch up |
| 14:17 | | * TheWatcher headdesks |
| 14:17 | <@TheWatcher> | Of course that fixed it |
| 14:17 | <@TheWatcher> | Restart apache |
| 14:17 | <@TheWatcher> | It's a fucking rails ap, should have realised it'd cache the config! |
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| 15:12 | <@iospace> | and lights just flashed |
| 15:18 | <@TheWatcher> | Tsk, such behaviour. |
| 15:22 | <@iospace> | TheWatcher: storm over us right now |
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| 20:55 | <&ToxicFrog> | zipmap \o/ |
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| 22:34 | < AnnoDomini> | What's the chance of getting 60+% on a test with 101 questions, each with four possible answers? |
| 22:35 | < AnnoDomini> | Err, by selecting answers randomly, I mean. |
| 22:35 | <~Vornicus> | Very Low. |
| 22:36 | <~Vornicus> | (one moment) |
| 22:37 | <~Vornicus> | 5.46832E-14 |
| 22:38 | < AnnoDomini> | So that's 0.0000000000546832%? |
| 22:38 | <~Vornicus> | one more 0 |
| 22:39 | < AnnoDomini> | Heh. |
| 22:40 | <&McMartin> | What brings this up? |
| 22:40 | <&McMartin> | Can't be Rhine tests, those have five answers >_> |
| 22:42 | < AnnoDomini> | I just did an online (written) test of Norwegian (Bokmal) to find out which CEFR level I should choose to join. I got 61 out of 101 correct. A consultant is supposed to get in touch within 48 hours for a human evaluation. |
| 22:43 | < AnnoDomini> | I'm pretty sure I can breeze through A2, just like I breezed through A1 last year, but I don't want to waste my time and money. |
| 22:45 | < AnnoDomini> | What's a Rhine test? |
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| 23:33 | <&McMartin> | AnnoDomini: Whoops, missed the question |
| 23:33 | <&McMartin> | It's the "standard" scientific test for ESP, as seen in the opening of Ghostbusters. |
| 23:38 | <@Reiv> | EhL |
| 23:38 | <@Reiv> | ? |
| 23:39 | <&McMartin> | 14:42 < AnnoDomini> What's a Rhine test? |
| 23:39 | <&McMartin> | Looks like Wiki files the relevant information under the article for "Zener cards" |
| 23:39 | <@Reiv> | aha |
| 23:40 | <&McMartin> | Rhine ultimately became a fraud, but AIUI he didn't *start* as one. |
| 23:41 | <@Reiv> | How'd that all happen? |
| 23:41 | <&McMartin> | It's been a long time since I knew that story well enough to tell it |
| 23:41 | <&McMartin> | So I will give a bibliographic citation instead: |
| 23:42 | <&McMartin> | Gardner, Martin. "Fads and Fallacies in the Name of Science.", 2nd edition. Dover Publications, 1957. |
| 23:43 | <@Reiv> | ... I see. |
| 23:45 | <&McMartin> | But in short, he's one of the guys that started out trying to scientifically study the paranormal before that exclusively meant "debunking claims of" |
| 23:45 | <&McMartin> | And ultimately wound up on the wrong side of that transition. |
| 23:47 | <&McMartin> | .......... |
| 23:47 | <&McMartin> | http://gccxml.github.io/HTML/Index.html |
| 23:48 | <@Tamber> | ...why? Why? WHY?! |
| 23:48 | <&McMartin> | Assuming this was written in the mid-2000s, "because your only alternative is to directly deal with the internals of gcc 2.x" is actually probably an acceptable one~ |
| 23:49 | <@Tamber> | Hmm |
| 23:49 | <@Tamber> | Considering the page is styled in tables, I'd like to think it is from that unenlightened era~ |
| 23:49 | <@Tamber> | "2002-03-12: Re-write"Yup |
| 23:53 | <@Reiv> | McMartin: Yeah, the field is not exactly positive these days is it |
| --- Log closed Fri Aug 23 00:00:03 2013 |