| --- Log opened Sat Jul 06 00:00:02 2013 |
| 00:07 | | Typherix is now known as Typh|offline |
| 00:15 | | ktemkin[awol] is now known as ktemkin |
| 00:17 | < ktemkin> | Am I just unlucky, or is ghc (haskell compiler)'s package management terrible? |
| 00:30 | < sshine> | ktemkin, do you mean cabal? |
| 00:31 | <@Alek> | sshine, do you mean COBOL? |
| 00:31 | < sshine> | Alek, the reason I'm asking is that I don't have the impression that cabal is any more related to GHC than any other Haskell compiler. but I could be wrong. |
| 00:32 | < sshine> | ktemkin, I sometimes get annoyed at it, but I don't know if it's any worse than other package managers. there's often a lot of development on packages, so versions easily desync. |
| 00:34 | < sshine> | ktemkin, or rather, what I'm trying to say is that I think the annoyances I experience are caused by inevitable compromises, but maybe I just have too much blind faith in Haskell programmers. :) |
| 00:36 | < sshine> | I have a question: I'm doing Common Sub-expression Elimination on a pure functional language. I do a pre-order AST walk and store sub-expressions and how often they occur in a table. naturally, the first time I see an expression, I don't know if I'll need to replace it, so every first occurance of a common sub-expression won't get replaced in this fashion. |
| 00:36 | <@Alek> | :P |
| 00:37 | < sshine> | I know that if my AST was represented by a mutable tree, I could do some tricks with pointer-pointers in my table and "go back" to those first occurrences and perform a replacement. |
| 00:37 | < sshine> | so my question is: I wonder if this can still be done in one pass using an immutable AST. |
| 00:38 | < sshine> | or at least in some fashion where only the necessary parts of the tree are traversed again. |
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| 01:03 | < ktemkin> | sshine: I was referring to ghc-pkg, which (if I understand the architecture correctly) is the actual low-level library manager for ghc |
| 01:06 | < ktemkin> | Though I guess it's not really true package managment anyway; the tasks seem to be split between ghc-pkg and cabal. |
| 01:11 | < ktemkin> | From my understanding, cabal (and cabal-install) handle source aquisition and building, and ghc-pkg handles library registration. AFAIK, there's nothing that actually handles the resultant "package" /files/ after they're installed; you can just register or deregister them with ghc-pkg. |
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| 02:50 | <&ToxicFrog> | Speaking of unit tests |
| 02:50 | <&ToxicFrog> | How rigorous do I want vstruct to be about checking input data types? |
| 02:51 | < Vorntastic> | In what sense? |
| 02:52 | <&Derakon> | You mean like, ensuring it's handed ints instead of strings, that kind of thing? |
| 02:52 | <&ToxicFrog> | Derakon: yeah. Specifically, at the moment, no type checking is done on input data other than "is there something there" |
| 02:52 | <&Derakon> | Ehh, I generally don't bother validating inputs. |
| 02:53 | <&ToxicFrog> | This means, among other things, that if you pass a string where an int is expected (say), the error you get is going to be "attempt to perform arithmatic on a string value" or something equally confusing |
| 02:53 | <&Derakon> | Unless you're planning to make this a super-mature library or something, it just seems like more effort and clutter than it's worth. |
| 02:53 | < Vorntastic> | Are there situations where this will lose data as opposed to excepting. |
| 02:53 | <&ToxicFrog> | Furthermore, if you pass something that can be converted, e.g. "1.2", it'll silently succeed |
| 02:54 | < Vorntastic> | BAD |
| 02:54 | <&Derakon> | Mmm, automatic string-to-number conversions. What language is this again? |
| 02:55 | < Vorntastic> | Yes, you do have to be more rigorous. |
| 02:57 | < Vorntastic> | Lua. I didn't think it pulled that bs though. |
| 02:58 | < ktemkin> | IIRC, the language creator's position on the automatic conversions was pretty much "oops". |
| 03:03 | <&Derakon> | I can get behind auto-conversion of ints and floats, as well as reasonably sane auto-casting to bools, but strings...not so much. |
| 03:07 | <&ToxicFrog> | Vorntastic: lua specifically converts numbers to strings (when the concatenation operator is applied) and strings to numbers (when any arithmetic operator is applied and the entire string - not just a prefix of it - is convertible to a number) |
| 03:07 | <&ToxicFrog> | It also permits the evaluation of any type in a boolean context. |
| 03:08 | < Vorntastic> | The existence of separate concat operators alleviates the problem some. |
| 03:09 | < Vorntastic> | But... gnn. |
| 03:09 | < Vorntastic> | I'd drop a warn there at least. |
| 03:11 | < Vorntastic> | At implicit string-num conversion, at float-int precision loss (but not f'rinstance double-float)... |
| 03:12 | <&ToxicFrog> | From an internal design perspective, the biggest problem is that there's no general framework for typechecking the input data, so either I need to write one, or each type needs to check its inputs individually |
| 03:16 | < Vorntastic> | There's no is_table, is_num, etc? |
| 03:18 | <&ToxicFrog> | There totally is |
| 03:19 | <&ToxicFrog> | But that's a lot of extra checks (and duplicated code!) in a library that's already kind of slow. |
| 03:19 | < Vorntastic> | Point. |
| 03:19 | < Vorntastic> | I should have a look at vstruct sometime. |
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| 03:40 | <&ToxicFrog> | Vorntastic: unless you use lua, it is probably not particularly interesting |
| 03:41 | < Vorntastic> | I"m interested in learning lua. |
| 03:42 | < Vorntastic> | Seeing someone's code for something I sort of know how to do elsewhere would be useful. |
| 03:43 | <&ToxicFrog> | Aah. |
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| 03:58 | <&ToxicFrog> | Vornicus: well, if you want to wander around the codebase and ask me questions, go for it |
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| 03:59 | <~Vornicus> | I believe I shall. |
| 03:59 | <~Vornicus> | but first, midget murdering |
| 04:22 | <&ToxicFrog> | o.O |
| 04:23 | <~Vornicus> | (playing borderlands 2) |
| 04:32 | <@Alek> | how's Vash liking it so far? |
| 04:32 | <~Vornicus> | She's loving the hell out of it. |
| 04:36 | <@Alek> | good. :D |
| 04:36 | <@Alek> | zer0 or mechro? |
| 04:37 | <~Vornicus> | She's playing zer0 |
| 04:38 | <~Vornicus> | We don't have the mechromancer pack |
| 04:39 | | * Alek nods. |
| 04:56 | < Syka> | i havent touched mechro yet |
| 04:57 | < Syka> | i kind of got bored after a bit, didnt actually finish the game |
| 04:57 | < Syka> | also, annoyingly, my 'so secret ubar preorder code' didn't work |
| 04:57 | < Syka> | the box also arrived in this condition http://reddrgn.net/purerage.jpg |
| 04:58 | <@Alek> | I am so sorry |
| 04:58 | < Syka> | http://reddrgn.net/purerage2.jpg |
| 04:58 | < Syka> | most ubererst collectors edition evar |
| 05:01 | < Syka> | also, aus has an 18+ rating now |
| 05:01 | < Syka> | i now want 18+ versions of every game |
| 05:01 | < Syka> | so that I can buy them, and then lord it over my brother |
| 05:01 | < Karono> | We have an 18+ rating, and yet SR4 and some other game was still banned. |
| 05:02 | < Syka> | well |
| 05:02 | < Syka> | that was because SR4 had sexual violence |
| 05:02 | < Syka> | which is banned no matter the rating |
| 05:02 | < Syka> | also, ' |
| 05:02 | < Syka> | also, 'some other game' was probably L4D2 |
| 05:02 | < Syka> | which was before R18 |
| 05:02 | < Syka> | i got gifted the amurcan version by a friend |
| 05:03 | < Karono> | No, it was a different zombie game, a new one. |
| 05:03 | < Syka> | oh um |
| 05:03 | < Syka> | state of decay |
| 05:04 | < Syka> | because of drug use |
| 05:04 | < Karono> | I heard the cited reasons for SR4 also included drug use, which surprised me because I thought that's the kind of thing that would fall under 18+. |
| 05:04 | < Syka> | "Of these, methadone, morphine and amphetamines are prescribed drugs and the term 'stimulant' is commonly used to refer to a class of drugs of which several are prescribed. Players obtain the drugs by scavenging for them or by manufacturing them in a lab." |
| 05:04 | < Syka> | Karono: it can't be illicit drugs that have a good effect |
| 05:04 | < Syka> | same as with Fallout 3 |
| 05:05 | < Syka> | you can't take morphine and have it heal you |
| 05:05 | < Syka> | but it's fine if it's called Med-X |
| 05:05 | < Karono> | Ugh. This is dumb. Doesn't Bioshock count as that? |
| 05:05 | < Karono> | Oh, wait, so it can't be a real drug? |
| 05:05 | < Syka> | no, it can't |
| 05:05 | < Syka> | it can be 'stims' or whatever |
| 05:05 | < Karono> | That's a bit stupid. |
| 05:05 | | * Karono eyerolls |
| 05:05 | < Syka> | but the game can't say 'use this morphine to heal yourself' |
| 05:06 | < Syka> | or 'snort cocaine to heal your character' |
| 05:06 | < Syka> | which, i suppose, is fair enough |
| 05:06 | < Syka> | since that's not what those drugs do in real life |
| 05:08 | < Karono> | Does anyone really think that snorting cocaine will heal them? And is a video game ever going to change that? Anyway, I'm going to stop now before I get angry. |
| 05:08 | < Syka> | Karono: well |
| 05:08 | < Syka> | there was a kid that died in my town huffing butane |
| 05:08 | < Syka> | you do need to realise that most people that you/i/we communicate with aren't 'average' |
| 05:08 | < Syka> | for instance, the average person is most likely barely literate |
| 05:09 | < Syka> | and likes things like farmville :P |
| 05:09 | < Karono> | You have a fair point. |
| 05:09 | < Syka> | 'i did x because it was in video games' has a very small amount of merit |
| 05:10 | < Syka> | 'oh, what does morphine do' 'it heals you, i saw it in sr4' is pretty much the limit of it |
| 05:10 | < Syka> | its not like theyre going to go 'oh man it's in SR4, lets go inject it!1!!' but it does give the wrong idea |
| 05:10 | < Syka> | same with literally everyone thinking guns use 'clips' |
| 05:11 | | * Karono nods |
| 05:11 | < Karono> | I still don't believe it's cause for banning, but I understand your point. |
| 05:11 | < Syka> | and that if you shoot someone with a shotgun, they fly backwards |
| 05:11 | < Syka> | because people are idiots and believe what they see |
| 05:11 | < Syka> | Karono: australia is a bit overly nanny state |
| 05:12 | < [R]> | "The Win 16 Subsystem has insufficent resources to continue running. Click on OK, close your applications, and restart your machine." |
| 05:12 | < [R]> | [OK] |
| 05:12 | < [R]> | Fuck you Westwood. |
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| 05:12 | < Syka> | but' the path to evil is paved with good intentions :/ |
| 05:12 | < Syka> | [R]: wat |
| 05:12 | < Syka> | are you playing like, C&C1 or something |
| 05:12 | < [R]> | Trying to install Dune 2000 |
| 05:13 | < Syka> | in a windows 98 VM? |
| 05:13 | < [R]> | Though I guess my C&C1 and C&C:RE disks are likely to be as stupid. |
| 05:13 | < [R]> | Nope. XP host. |
| 05:13 | < Syka> | ...X...P? |
| 05:13 | < [R]> | Which is why I don't want to restart. It's the host. |
| 05:14 | | * Syka says a quick prayer |
| 05:14 | < Syka> | :P |
| 05:14 | < Syka> | [R]: you could probably find GoG versions that work |
| 05:14 | < [R]> | About a year ago. Arch's new devs' rampant habit of shitting over all that is good pissed me off enough to leave Arch. |
| 05:14 | < [R]> | Unfortunately, I had no Linux harbor I knew safe enough to journey too. |
| 05:15 | < [R]> | So I installed XP and VirtualBox so I could experiment with different distros. |
| 05:15 | < [R]> | I just never got around to uninstalling XP. |
| 05:15 | | * Syka is currently floating around the modified-to-hell Ubuntu Archipelago |
| 05:15 | < [R]> | That'd require touching apt though. |
| 05:15 | < Syka> | apt is nice |
| 05:15 | < [R]> | Also Debianoid packages. |
| 05:15 | < Syka> | i'll eventually suck it up and move to debian unstable |
| 05:16 | < Syka> | but until then, 12.10 with gnome3 |
| 05:16 | < [R]> | apt is shit. Debianoid packages are functional but have braindead shitmonkeys making horrible Ctuhulu-summoning modifications. |
| 05:16 | < Syka> | hehe |
| 05:17 | < [R]> | What kind of inbreed makes an SA tool use the default configuration path of "/use/the/-c/option/to/specify/a/configuration/file.conf"? |
| 05:17 | < [R]> | A Debian one. |
| 05:18 | < [R]> | I hope you get AIDS shitface. |
| 05:18 | < [R]> | AIDS AND HIVES! |
| 05:18 | < Bob> | PLAGUE AND DEATH! |
| 05:19 | < [R]> | Death would imply release. Why the fuck would I give them such kindness from their well deserved suffering? |
| 05:20 | <&ToxicFrog> | [R]: isn't Dune 2000 a DOS game? |
| 05:21 | < [R]> | I thought it was Win95/98 |
| 05:21 | <&ToxicFrog> | Oh wait |
| 05:21 | <&ToxicFrog> | I'm thinking of Dune II |
| 05:27 | < [R]> | Guess I'm playing Harbringer. |
| 05:27 | < [R]> | Yay non-roguelike Diablo clones! |
| 05:34 | < [R]> | Why the fuck are there two patches with different sizes and release dates that share version numbers? |
| 05:37 | <~Vornicus> | "SA tool"? |
| 05:37 | < [R]> | AIDE specifically |
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| 05:37 | < [R]> | http://aide.sourceforge.net/ |
| 05:39 | < [R]> | ... and it continues to not want to start up |
| 05:39 | < [R]> | On to Rayman! |
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| 05:39 | < [R]> | D: |
| 05:41 | < [R]> | It didn't work either. |
| 05:45 | < [R]> | Oh yay, working now :) |
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| --- Log closed Sun Jul 07 00:00:16 2013 |