| --- Log opened Sun Jun 30 00:00:34 2013 |
| 01:24 | | Orthia [orthianz@3CF3A5.E1CD01.B089B9.1E14D1] has joined #code |
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| 01:29 | | Vornicus is now known as Vash |
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| 03:09 | | Typh|offline is now known as Typherix |
| 03:10 | <~Vornicus> | I dreamed that my brother asked me for an editor that could separate syntax highlighting from the text. |
| 03:12 | | Kindamoody[zZz] is now known as Kindamoody |
| 03:17 | <@gnolam> | I didn't even know you had a brother. |
| 04:06 | | * Derakon sighs, starts reviewing a 2241-line diff. |
| 04:07 | <~Vornicus> | Yeah, he's not as nerdy as I am. |
| 04:17 | <&Derakon> | Oh hey, it's only 1764 lines if you ignore whitespace changes. ?.? |
| 04:18 | <&Derakon> | (This guy uses an editor that automatically trims the whitespace at the ends of lines, as I recall) |
| 04:19 | < [R]> | See, the polite thing to do is to disable that when sharing patches |
| 04:19 | | cpux|2 [cpux@Nightstar-98762b0f.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #code |
| 04:19 | <&Derakon> | This is a pullreq from his repo to mine; basically you're asking him to disable that feature altogether in his editor. |
| 04:20 | <&Derakon> | (Or alternately rig up something that reverts all whitespace-only changes before he submits, I guess) |
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| 04:35 | | * Derakon eyes this pullreq, wonders why people never comment their code adequately. |
| 04:39 | <&Derakon> | 562 lines into the diff, and I have 86 lines of commentary. This is not a promising ratio~ |
| 04:42 | | ktemkin is now known as ktemkin[awol] |
| 04:53 | | * Derakon tries to get grep to return him all lines that have a # with no following # or whitespace. |
| 04:53 | <&Derakon> | It's...not working. |
| 04:53 | <&Derakon> | `grep -rE "#[^\s]" *` gets me every commented line in the source code. |
| 04:54 | <&Derakon> | Ah, just using a blank space instead of \s works. |
| 05:01 | <&McMartin> | I should probably comment up that code I've been testing now that it appears to work. |
| 05:05 | <&Derakon> | Yes. |
| 05:07 | <&McMartin> | Then I can fold it into Monocle and break my C++ dependencies \o/ |
| 05:08 | <~Vornicus> | Yay, planet loadout generation works |
| 05:08 | <~Vornicus> | Next up... oh, this will be a bad day. |
| 05:09 | <~Vornicus> | Finally I'm getting into the proper processing meat of this program. |
| 05:10 | <&Derakon> | 750 lines of review done (close to halfway!), 128 lines of commentary written. Sigh. |
| 05:10 | <&Derakon> | Granted that includes a decent amount of whitespace for the commentary. |
| 05:14 | <~Vornicus> | So, let's see. |
| 05:18 | | Kindamoody is now known as Kindamoody|afk |
| 05:19 | <~Vornicus> | Each planet creates an UnmergedSystemMORMap, a map<SystemFacilitySelection, SubSystemMORMap>; SubSystemMORMap is a map<MORCoordinates, MultiPlanetLoadoutDescription>. |
| 05:20 | | Derakon is now known as Derakon[AFK] |
| 05:20 | <~Vornicus> | Then I join planets: for planets A and B, I take certain pairs of SubSystemMORMaps, iterate both pairs, add their coordinates, and join their MultiPlanetLoadoutDescriptions. The pairs give me a new SystemFacilitySelection (based on the original two SFS's) |
| 05:23 | <~Vornicus> | I take all the things with the same SystemFacilitySelection and merge them, creating a new UnmergedSystemMORMap, which I then send down the line to join with more planets. |
| 05:25 | <~Vornicus> | Once I have joined all the planets in a single system, I filter out 'incomplete' SystemFacilitySelections from the USMORM, and merge the remaining SubSystemMORMaps. |
| 05:26 | <~Vornicus> | Now, I have a whole bunch of whole-system MORMaps (with some approriate tags so the SystemFacilitySelections data I had gets kept); these I must join, adding system loadouts together. |
| 05:28 | <~Vornicus> | In four places here, I filter out unoptimal loadouts, and in all cases it's the same way; however there are of course basically four different types. |
| 05:29 | <~Vornicus> | Two of these places are adds: I add the coordinates of two disjoint loadouts, and join the maps that give those loadouts; two of them are merges: I keep the coordinates of each loadout, and also the map. |
| 05:31 | <~Vornicus> | The adds are where it really gets hairy; because the adds require a cartesian product of a possibly very large number of loadouts, and I don't need the joined map to determine whether it's optimal or not, I don't want to actually generate the joined map unless I've shown it's optimal. |
| 05:36 | <~Vornicus> | Okay, so. The optimizer takes an iterator-oid; both add and merge iterator-oids produce the MORCoordinates automatically, and the maps on demand. |
| 05:39 | <~Vornicus> | optimizer then returns a map<MORCoordinates, loadout_map_type>. |
| 05:41 | <~Vornicus> | Now. The merge iterator-oid works off a priority queue; all maps that I'm merging go in, and then when I pop them I pump and push back into the queue. |
| 05:49 | <~Vornicus> | The add iterator-oid also works off a priority queue, and also a set; when I pop, I 1. remove that object from the set and 2. check whether either of the two successors are in the set; if not I add them to the set and push them. |
| 05:51 | <~Vornicus> | Again, of course, both of these iterators have to work on several types of object. |
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| 06:23 | <~Vornicus> | Well, that was a lovely little adventure. |
| 06:24 | <&McMartin> | What's MOR here? |
| 06:24 | <~Vornicus> | MOR: Minerals, Organics, Radioactives. The three resources I'm optimizing on. |
| 06:24 | <&McMartin> | Ah |
| 06:26 | <~Vornicus> | I'm sorting on those (technically the key is [m, o+r, o]) because the optimization algorithm is fastest when I have them in order. |
| 06:34 | <~Vornicus> | So, right now I have several tasks before me: 1. write the thing that joins maps; 2. write the merge and add iterators; 3. write the optimizer; 4. write the things that actually decide when to call those... |
| 06:35 | <@Tarinaky> | What's Vorn making? |
| 06:35 | <~Vornicus> | I've been working on a resource output optimization program for a space 4x. |
| 06:36 | <@Tarinaky> | *whooosh* |
| 06:37 | <~Vornicus> | In simpler terms: I have a whole bunch of planets of varying size and quality; I wish to load each planet with resource production facilities, in such a way that I can build as many of a particular ship as possible. |
| 06:39 | | Typherix is now known as Typh|offline |
| 06:44 | <@Tarinaky> | I see. |
| 06:46 | <~Vornicus> | At the moment I'm working on the design for the thing that removes guaranteed-non-optimal layouts; specifically, this bit removes layouts where there is another layout that gives more resources of every type. |
| 06:46 | <~Vornicus> | Unfortunately, I have to use it in four different places, so now here I am writing templates. |
| 06:52 | <~Vornicus> | (the real question is what's the actual signature I'm working off of here) |
| 07:01 | | Turaiel is now known as Turaiel[Offline] |
| 07:50 | <~Vornicus> | Right about now I need a big book of C++ template bs because Dang |
| 07:51 | | ErikMesoy|sleep is now known as ErikMesoy |
| 08:00 | | Kindamoody is now known as Kindamoody|out |
| 08:18 | <~Vornicus> | okay. The merge and add iterator-oids need to implement ++, getMOR, and getLoadout; the optimizer takes an iterator-oid and returns a map<MORCoordinates, LoadoutType> |
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| 08:46 | <~Vornicus> | merge takes a vector of iterators; add takes two iterators; in both cases, the iterators are map<MORCoordinates, something>::iterators. |
| 08:50 | | * Vornicus tries to figure out what the hell he need to do with templates to make that happen. |
| 09:11 | | You're now known as TheWatcher |
| 09:27 | <~Vornicus> | I don't even know. |
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| 17:34 | | Typh|offline is now known as Typherix |
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| 17:43 | | * AnnoDomini manages to get drivers and software for the HMR. I got to the point where I can receive radio, which is getting somewhere. |
| 17:49 | | Turaiel is now known as Turaiel[Offline] |
| 18:13 | < AnnoDomini> | Ugh. Can this thing even receive normal TV? |
| 18:14 | | [R] is now known as DrDREAM |
| 18:29 | | Turaiel[Offline] is now known as Turaiel |
| 18:47 | | Typherix is now known as Typh|offline |
| 19:09 | | ktemkin[awol] is now known as ktemkin |
| 19:26 | | Derakon[AFK] is now known as Derakon |
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| 21:37 | <@Tarinaky> | AnnoDomini: Dumb question but... Analogue TV or Digital TV? |
| 21:48 | < AnnoDomini> | I don't know about these things. I want TV. That you get on a TV set. |
| 22:03 | < Turaiel> | The question still applies |
| 22:03 | < Turaiel> | I am so late... |
| 22:04 | < Turaiel> | Normal TV as in with an antenna? |
| 22:06 | <@Azash> | http://fc00.deviantart.net/fs71/f/2012/154/3/2/me_as_a_evil_hacker_by_mitchpratt tv-d526oqp.jpg |
| 22:07 | < Turaiel> | And AnnoDomini, what is "this thing"> |
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| 22:28 | < ktemkin> | AnnoDomini: Did you ever get the kernel driver to recognize the device? |
| 22:29 | | Turaiel is now known as Turaiel[Offline] |
| 22:39 | <@Tarinaky> | AnnoDomini: You should check if the country you are in has the type of tv signal your equipment is designed to acquire. |
| 22:40 | <@Tarinaky> | I did say it was a dumb question >.> |
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| 22:44 | < AnnoDomini> | ktemkin: No. I am on WinXP now. The manufacturer's drivers and software worked for getting radio. |
| 22:45 | < AnnoDomini> | Turaiel[Offline]: Terratec T-Stick+. |
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| 23:19 | <@Namegduf> | Linked to a thread with someone complaining about C / C++ having sharp edges... and the one they choose is that f() + g() has an arbitrary evaluation order. |
| 23:20 | <@Tarinaky> | I struggle to think of serious languages where f() + g() doesn't have arbitrary evaluation order... |
| 23:21 | <@Namegduf> | I know. |
| 23:21 | <@Tarinaky> | I have no words. |
| 23:21 | <@Namegduf> | Also any code relying on the evaluation order of a mathematical expression is basically begging for some later programmer who assumes that + is commutative to break the program. |
| 23:21 | < [R]> | ... |
| 23:21 | < [R]> | Good fuck |
| 23:22 | < [R]> | If you're running into a problem where that's an issue... you're doing something wrong. |
| 23:22 | <@Tarinaky> | If you're running into a problem where that's an issue... you're the problem. |
| 23:22 | < [R]> | Yeah |
| 23:23 | <@Namegduf> | Yes. |
| 23:25 | <~Vornicus> | (addition in floating point numbers is commutative but not associative. there's an entire field of study about what to do about it) |
| 23:26 | <@Namegduf> | Yeah. Also some types of matrix multiplication aren't commutative, despite regular multiplication being so. |
| 23:27 | <@Tarinaky> | Commutative but not associative means...? |
| 23:28 | < ktemkin> | You can flip the order of the operands, but not change the order of evaluation. |
| 23:28 | <~Vornicus> | commutative but not associative: (a+b)+c = (b+a)+c != a+(b+c) |
| 23:28 | <@Namegduf> | (a + b) + c == (b + a) + c, but (a + b) + c does not essentially = a + (b + c) |
| 23:28 | <@Namegduf> | Beaten to it |
| 23:28 | <@Tarinaky> | I... see. |
| 23:30 | <&McMartin> | Not being associative is a royal pain in the ass because associativity is one of the most basic things you like to assert about your mathematical operators |
| 23:31 | <&McMartin> | That said, a programmer assuming that * is commutative is not reading the documentation carefully enough. |
| 23:32 | <@Namegduf> | I would tend to suspect that non-commutative * still results in bugs which get missed from reordering, but thanks to matrices we just need to live with it |
| 23:32 | <&McMartin> | Well |
| 23:33 | <&McMartin> | That's kind of the thing |
| 23:33 | <@Namegduf> | Less bad than +, which has a stronger "this is a commutative operator" thing |
| 23:33 | <&McMartin> | Quite so. |
| 23:33 | <~Vornicus> | though it's not commutative on strings~ |
| 23:33 | <&McMartin> | Also quite so~ |
| 23:34 | <&McMartin> | Though given the etymology of &, and how + is a piece of that, I'm willing to say it gets a claim on +. |
| 23:35 | <&McMartin> | Oh, OK, I have a semi-sane version of evaluation order mattering on f() + g() if you're lazy or careless as opposed to actively malevolent. |
| 23:36 | <&McMartin> | If you're doing unit testing by turning on debug logging and diffing log files. |
| 23:36 | <&McMartin> | You'll get false positives with a naive log format. |
| 23:36 | <@Namegduf> | Oooh. |
| 23:36 | <@Namegduf> | That's a pretty good one. |
| 23:36 | <@Namegduf> | Consistency mattering. |
| 23:37 | <@Namegduf> | For debug side effects. |
| 23:37 | <&McMartin> | Honestly, there even "lazy or careless" may be too strong. |
| 23:38 | <@Namegduf> | Might be a bit. I think it's a very fragile method of doing testing which would be broken by a lot of things- which means it'd be not very good for checking changes to code still worked. |
| 23:38 | <@Namegduf> | It'd basically serve as a reminder to manually check the results when you went to rebaseline it. |
| 23:38 | <@Namegduf> | This is the current state of GUI testing, so it's workable. |
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| --- Log closed Mon Jul 01 00:00:49 2013 |