| --- Log opened Mon Mar 11 00:00:05 2013 |
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| 01:05 | <@[R]> | http://postimage.org/image/h2gq1mo53/ <-- who is this lady? |
| 01:07 | <&ToxicFrog> | wtf |
| 01:54 | <@Reiv> | I've heard those opinions. |
| 01:55 | <@Reiv> | There are, shall we say, certain categories of the feminist movement that have reached a tad hysterical; they are of course some of the loudest. |
| 01:56 | <&ToxicFrog> | See, I hear that a lot but I've never actually encountered them. |
| 01:56 | <@Namegduf> | Then there's the parts of the movement who vehemently hate transgendered people. |
| 01:56 | <@[R]> | ... |
| 01:56 | <@Namegduf> | For stealing their womynhood while being privileged or something. |
| 01:56 | <@Namegduf> | One of whom was a writer for the Guardian's sister paper. |
| 01:56 | <&ToxicFrog> | http://www.harkavagrant.com/index.php?id=341 |
| 01:56 | <&ToxicFrog> | TERFs, yeah. |
| 01:56 | <&ToxicFrog> | Those I have encountered in the wild. |
| 01:57 | <@Reiv> | TERFs? |
| 01:57 | <&ToxicFrog> | Trans-Exclusionary Radical Feminists. |
| 01:57 | <@Namegduf> | Trans-Exclusionary Radical Feminist, although I think exclusionist isn't quite the word I'd choose to express "complains about the transgender lobby oppressing them" |
| 01:58 | <@Reiv> | ... I see |
| 01:58 | <@Namegduf> | (Which is what this writer was writing about, so it seems fairly reasonable to treat it as representative of the kind) |
| 01:58 | <@Azash> | To be fair, ToxicFrog, that Hark, a Vagrant! comic seems to be more an attack on strawmen |
| 01:58 | <&ToxicFrog> | Namegduf: the "exclusionary" comes from the desire to exclude trans* people from the feminist movement or, if possible, from society as a whole |
| 01:58 | <@Namegduf> | Works. |
| 01:58 | <@Reiv> | So, transphobes with entitlement issues? |
| 01:58 | <@Azash> | Pretty much |
| 01:59 | <&ToxicFrog> | Azash: it is an attack specifically on the strawman representation of feminists alluded to by [R] and Reiv earlier. |
| 01:59 | <&ToxicFrog> | Hence the title "straw feminists in the closet" |
| 01:59 | | * iospace puts ToxicFrog in the closet |
| 01:59 | <@Namegduf> | Transphobes versed in the terminology of "privilege". |
| 01:59 | <@Azash> | Ah |
| 01:59 | <&ToxicFrog> | Reiv: I'm not sure "entitlement issues" is quite the right term |
| 02:00 | <@Namegduf> | As for man-haters, they show up- you again hear of some really awful stuff from places catering to "radical feminists". |
| 02:00 | <&ToxicFrog> | But the general attitude seems to be that transmen are betraying feminism by selfishly joining the patriarchy, while transwomen are clearly men trying to infiltrate and undermine feminism |
| 02:00 | <@Namegduf> | And of course, since their views are unpopular with the mainstream, the people they don't like are a lobby oppressing them. |
| 02:01 | <@Namegduf> | (This is how everyone with views unpopular with the mainstream thinks) |
| 02:01 | <&ToxicFrog> | I.e. they do not accept the validity of transgender status; a "transman" is a woman trying to gain the benefits of the patriarchy and a "transwoman" is a man trying to subvert their movement. |
| 02:01 | <&ToxicFrog> | Namegduf: er. (a) not in the slightest, (b) this is a common attitude among people whose views are popular in the mainstream as well |
| 02:01 | <&ToxicFrog> | E.g. christians in the US |
| 02:02 | <&ToxicFrog> | (also, not all radfems are manhaters or transphobic. Radicalism is a separate axis.) |
| 02:02 | <@[R]> | <Namegduf> (This is how everyone with views unpopular with the mainstream thinks) <-- not entirely true. Some just think everyone else is a sheep. |
| 02:03 | <@[R]> | Err nm, I read that as "not popular" instead of "unpopular" |
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| 02:03 | <@Namegduf> | ToxicFrog: No, it's just that the places branding themselves as for radical feminists, like Radfem Hub choose to carry it, and the people saying it. |
| 02:04 | <@Reiv> | ToxicFrog: That sounds very much like "Transphobic, and convinced Everyone Is Out To Get Them" |
| 02:05 | <@Namegduf> | ToxicFrog: They might not all think of it, but there's certainly a great deal of tolerance for those who do. |
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| 02:09 | <@Namegduf> | The basic thing is that transgender people threaten their view of the world in which the practical differences between being a man and a woman is dominated by differences in privilege through life. It also threatens people who feel that gender differences in society are oppression. |
| 02:10 | <@Namegduf> | So where they are screwed up, they're worse than any religious group I've ever seen. |
| 02:11 | <@Namegduf> | Maybe if you went to places where sharia law was in effect you'd see similar attitudes. |
| 02:12 | <@Reiv> | ... So Gender = Opression, therefore those changing gender are either traitors or infiltrators. |
| 02:13 | <@Namegduf> | "By embracing a gender role opposite your assigned sex, you are reifying gender/privilege and thus making it that much harder for us to smash gender. I know that sounds contradictory but, if you'd been a feminist for as long as I have, you'd understand." |
| 02:13 | <@Reiv> | Opression very clearly equals War, then. Hooray! What a miserable way to live life. |
| 02:13 | <@Namegduf> | ^ A quote I just grabbed on the subject |
| 02:13 | <@Azash> | No true transman |
| 02:16 | <@Namegduf> | On those pictures, though, I've heard the "all sex is rape" thing before. |
| 02:17 | <@Namegduf> | I don't remember a detailed analysis of it before, but it comes down to them perceiving it to always be akin to a boss sleeping with an employee in terms of power imbalance. |
| 02:17 | <&ToxicFrog> | Reiv: I don't think it's paranoia, I just think it's a rejection of the concept of trans*. So a transwoman can't actually be a woman because she was born with a penis, so she must have some other motive for wanting to appear female. |
| 02:17 | <@Namegduf> | So that particular part of it genuinely is something you see in the radical feminist movement |
| 02:18 | <&ToxicFrog> | And "this person who is not a member of my group ____ is trying to become a member of the group despite not belonging to it" is a pretty common complaint/fear throughout history. |
| 02:18 | <@Reiv> | Lovely. |
| 02:18 | <&ToxicFrog> | And yeah, that's not a position I agree with but it is actually possible to hold it in an internally consistent manner, generally by asserting that the male:female power imbalance is such that there is always an element of coercion, even if subconsciously, and coerced consent is by definition not consent. |
| 02:19 | <@Namegduf> | Right |
| 02:21 | <&ToxicFrog> | (it becomes more defensible if you limit it to a specific culture and time period; asserting it globally is much more difficult) |
| 02:23 | <@Namegduf> | Yeah, you also run into a lot more moderate versions. |
| 02:23 | <@Namegduf> | Well, "moderate". |
| 02:23 | <&ToxicFrog> | Oh yeah, and the whole gender role vs. sex thing I have heard come up before, most frequently from transpeople - e.g. "if I act all girly I'm reinforcing gender norms I don't agree with, but if I don't no-one* sees me as 'really' a woman" |
| 02:23 | <@Namegduf> | "One night stands are rape in almost all circumstances." |
| 02:23 | <&ToxicFrog> | *no-one potentially including one's doctor and therapist which can have really unpleasant consequences |
| 02:23 | <@Namegduf> | That kind of thing |
| 02:24 | <@Namegduf> | Where that rape thing connects to other bits is that to be internally consistent and all, these people have a negative to very negative view of any man who has ever slept with a woman. |
| 02:24 | <&ToxicFrog> | Not necessarily; it doesn't require malice, just ignorance of privilege. |
| 02:25 | <@Namegduf> | That's the negative end. |
| 02:25 | <&ToxicFrog> | Yeah, I guess I don't consider that view "negative to very negative" since I consider it critical of the society that produces the privilege, not the people who unknowingly benefit from it. |
| 02:25 | <@Namegduf> | Because they've either ignorantly or knowingly, in that model. |
| 02:26 | <@Namegduf> | *doing great evil ignorantly, or willfully ignorantly, or knowingly |
| 02:26 | <&ToxicFrog> | Willful ignorance is deserving of criticism, stupidity is deserving of pity, but unknowning ignorance just needs education. |
| 02:26 | <@Namegduf> | The former is kind of negative and it goes downhill from there. |
| 02:27 | <&ToxicFrog> | And society does contain rather a lot of extremely fucked up messages re: sex and consent. |
| 02:27 | <@Namegduf> | And obviously anyone who's heard and rejects their position is willful at best. |
| 02:28 | <&ToxicFrog> | E.g. "the woman's role is to say 'no' even when she means yes so that the man will want her more, and the man's role is to pursue the woman until she admits she wanted him all along", which is stupidly common and horrifying. |
| 02:28 | <@Namegduf> | Yes, it is. |
| 02:34 | <@Reiv> | Anyway, uh |
| 02:34 | <@Reiv> | This is #Code, not #GenderPolitics |
| 02:35 | <&ToxicFrog> | Yeah, but it was quiet~ |
| 02:35 | <@Reiv> | It is in my experience that channels that end up getting too far off track stay off track, as those not interested in the current topic flee the scene~ |
| 02:39 | <@Azash> | https://boards.4chan.org/g/res/32169463#p32172955 |
| 02:41 | <&ToxicFrog> | Eh, everyone else was AFK~ |
| 02:43 | <&ToxicFrog> | Azash: I'm sorry, I can't read 4chan anymore |
| 02:43 | <@Azash> | Oho? |
| 02:44 | <&ToxicFrog> | Everyone on it talks like they have terminal brain damage and most of them are wrong, besides. |
| 02:45 | <@Namegduf> | ToxicFrog: I think you've somehow confused 4chan for /r/programming. |
| 02:45 | <@Namegduf> | :P |
| 02:45 | <@Azash> | Hee |
| 02:46 | | * Reiv replaces all of you with a very small shell script. |
| 02:46 | <@Azash> | Well, /g/ can be quite terrible but sometimes you find gold (like the post I linked) |
| 02:46 | <&ToxicFrog> | Possible~ |
| 02:46 | <@Reiv> | BTW ToxicFrog: So you are now at werk? |
| 02:47 | <&ToxicFrog> | Azash: to be fair, vim and emacs evangelicals annoy the shit out of me because even if there are compelling arguments for the use of those editors they never make those arguments |
| 02:47 | <&ToxicFrog> | Reiv: given that it's 11pm on a sunday, no |
| 02:47 | <@Reiv> | Jolly good! |
| 02:47 | <@Reiv> | Are you still sick? |
| 02:47 | <&ToxicFrog> | But I will be 12 hours from now |
| 02:48 | <@Reiv> | Ach, congratulations :) |
| 02:48 | <@Reiv> | And good luck &etc |
| 02:48 | <@Reiv> | I assume you'll be fairly well exhausted for the next week or two while you settle into the new job then~ |
| 02:48 | <@Azash> | Oh, you're starting now? Good luck! |
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| 02:54 | <&ToxicFrog> | Azash: strictly speaking I started last monday, but the entire first week was training at HQ. |
| 02:55 | <@Azash> | Ah, I see |
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| 03:39 | < Syk> | things that syka really hates: html5lib |
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| 03:39 | < Syk> | things that syka hates slightly less: lxml.html.clean |
| 03:39 | < Syk> | except it makes it have a root element |
| 03:39 | < Syk> | if it doesn't have a root element, it puts one in |
| 03:40 | < Syk> | and there's no option to *not* do that |
| 03:40 | < Syk> | so i end up having to mangle it and strip out the <div> it wraps it in |
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| 17:49 | | * iospace hugs Kyte|Work |
| 17:49 | <@iospace> | ^_^ |
| 18:14 | | Kindamoody|out is now known as Kindamoody |
| 19:15 | <@Tarinaky> | Does anyone know if it's possible to override my normal .xinitrc file when starting X on another terminal? |
| 19:15 | <@Tarinaky> | ie xinit [some other shell script] -- :1 |
| 19:17 | <@Tamber> | Yup. |
| 19:17 | <@Tarinaky> | Any clue what arcane invocation I need? |
| 19:17 | <@Tarinaky> | I tried the above and it didn't work. |
| 19:17 | <@Tamber> | xinit /usr/local/lib/not_my_xinitrc -- [program] :1 |
| 19:17 | <@froztbyte> | "To determine the client to run, startx first looks for a file called .xinitrc in the user's home directory. If that is not found, it uses the file xinitrc in the xinit library directory. " |
| 19:19 | <@froztbyte> | I can't tell from this manpage if you can actually override that |
| 19:19 | <@froztbyte> | (also wtf are you doing? :p) |
| 19:19 | <@Tamber> | or, set $XINITRC to something. |
| 19:20 | <@Tarinaky> | froztbyte: Trying to start aurora4x without shitting all over my resolution settings in my 'real' environment. |
| 19:20 | <@Tarinaky> | Better to set up another X, mess up its settings and let the garbage collector/free() recognise its own. |
| 19:21 | <@froztbyte> | hg init; hg add; hg commit |
| 19:21 | <@Tarinaky> | There's a bug in the version of X I'm running which means panning doesn't work properly unless you do silly things. |
| 19:21 | <@froztbyte> | changes? hg revert/ |
| 19:21 | <@froztbyte> | accidento-/ |
| 19:21 | <@froztbyte> | (although I guess it'll rather be `hg up -C`) |
| 19:23 | <@Tarinaky> | Bah, sod it. |
| 19:23 | <@Tarinaky> | I'll just do it manually :/ |
| 19:23 | <@Tamber> | o.o |
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| 19:30 | | * Derakon bemusedly eyes some old code (written by, yes, Sebastian) that his boss wants him to resurrect. |
| 19:30 | <&Derakon> | All of the comments are one of: |
| 19:30 | <&Derakon> | 1) Commented out code. |
| 19:30 | <&Derakon> | 2) Commented out Python REPL output. |
| 19:31 | <&Derakon> | 3) Commented out headers from data files. |
| 19:31 | <&Derakon> | 4) After a large block comment that says "ERIK'S ORIG" |
| 19:31 | <&Derakon> | So congratulations, Erik, for providing the only meaningful comments in this 1k-line program! |
| 19:32 | <@gnolam> | ... |
| 19:34 | <&Derakon> | (Also, from the description of what this program is supposed to do, I could trivially replicate it by cannibalizing some of my existing projects) |
| 19:35 | <@Tarinaky> | Hahaha. |
| 19:35 | <@Tarinaky> | I hear B&Q have discounts on Axes. |
| 19:48 | <@Alek> | I wonder if TW is looking for a gig. |
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| 22:38 | <&ToxicFrog> | Windows, you are a shitdick goatass motherfucker. |
| 22:38 | <@Reiv> | ... it's a Satyr? |
| 22:39 | <&ToxicFrog> | If it were a satyr it would at least be good for something~ |
| 22:41 | <&ToxicFrog> | "Could not reconnect all network drives". Gee, I wonder why. Maybe it has something to do with your worthless dog-felching network drivers. |
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| 22:55 | <&Derakon> | Random coding tip: leave an unmarked comment in your code when you leave off so you can pick up if you have uncompleted changes. |
| 22:55 | <&Derakon> | E.g. just put |
| 22:55 | <&Derakon> | LEFT OFF HERE |
| 22:55 | <&Derakon> | in the middle of your code. |
| 22:55 | <&Derakon> | Syntax errors guarantee you won't try to run something that's not complted~ |
| 22:56 | <@Reiv> | snerk |
| 22:56 | <@Alek> | hee |
| 22:56 | <&Derakon> | Er, completed. |
| 22:57 | <&Derakon> | Anyway, vanishing time. |
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| 23:01 | <~Vornicus> | Der: I like it. |
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| 23:33 | | * LootOfficer tries to find that site where McMartin statted up the UQM races in GURPS. |
| 23:35 | < LootOfficer> | Woe. The site appears to have been taken down. |
| 23:36 | <&McMartin> | Hm? |
| 23:36 | <&McMartin> | IIRC I hid it but it shouldn't be gone. |
| 23:37 | <&McMartin> | It prompted too many questions or assumptions once I got involved with Other UQM Things. |
| 23:37 | < LootOfficer> | Can't find it. All I got was a dead link. |
| 23:38 | <&McMartin> | Mmm, it's not on the remaining site. |
| 23:38 | <&McMartin> | Most sites vanished when I graduated. |
| 23:38 | <&McMartin> | I've got it around here somewhere, though. |
| 23:40 | | JustLurk [justbob@ServerAdministrator.Nightstar.Net] has joined #code |
| 23:41 | | JustBob [justbob@ServerAdministrator.Nightstar.Net] has quit [Ping timeout: 121 seconds] |
| --- Log closed Tue Mar 12 00:00:19 2013 |