| --- Log opened Thu Dec 27 00:00:35 2012 |
| 00:21 | | * TheWatcher hairpulls at css, wonders why the sodding hell this input element is apparently ignoring its top margin |
| 00:22 | <@TheWatcher> | Sodit |
| 00:22 | | You're now known as TheWatcher[t-2] |
| 00:25 | | You're now known as TheWatcher[zZzZ] |
| 00:30 | <@gnolam> | Because the CSS box model spec was written by one A. al-Hazred |
| 00:30 | <@TheWatcher[zZzZ]> | No fucking kidding |
| 01:02 | | Thalaway is now known as thalass |
| 01:29 | | gnolam [lenin@Nightstar-0fcc80a0.tbcn.telia.com] has quit [[NS] Quit: Gone] |
| 01:34 | | * McM|travails decides to maybe get some work done |
| 01:34 | < McM|travails> | If all goes well, I will be writing nothing but comments |
| 01:41 | <&ToxicFrog> | :woop:? |
| 01:54 | < McM|travails> | Hopefully |
| 01:54 | | * McM|travails didn't really want to be doing any work over vacation, but was ill his last few days there beforehand. |
| 02:07 | | himi [fow035@Nightstar-5d05bada.internode.on.net] has quit [Connection closed] |
| 02:13 | | * thalass watches a history of electric cars (paid for by Renault, so slightly biased towards their efforts) http://youtu.be/44mFzZI1_r0 |
| 02:14 | < thalass> | augh wrong channel :P |
| 02:17 | <@Alek> | is it really? |
| 02:21 | < McM|travails> | Of general interest, I suppose |
| 02:49 | <@simon`> | I'm implementing a directed graph algorithm for detecting "strongly-connected components" (i.e. cycles) |
| 02:49 | <@simon`> | I found http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Path-based_strong_component_algorithm which I like and understand |
| 02:49 | <@simon`> | it uses two stacks, a counter and it enumerates each vertex. |
| 02:50 | <@simon`> | I'm implementing this in Java, and my question is how to neatly enumerate these vertices (objects) outside of the objects themselves. |
| 02:50 | <@simon`> | I don't want to taint the objects because I might have to run the algorithm again later, and the algorithm actually asks "has this vertex been enumerated yet?", so I'd have to wipe all the objects after running. |
| 02:51 | < McM|travails> | Mmm |
| 02:51 | <@simon`> | I could do that, I suppose, but I thought of maybe using a Map<Vertex,Integer>, but I don't know if there's something neater. |
| 02:51 | < McM|travails> | That's what I'd do, but I'd use a SystemIdentityHashMap |
| 02:51 | < McM|travails> | Sine it's object identity you want here, right, ==, not .equals? |
| 02:52 | < McM|travails> | *Since |
| 02:52 | <@simon`> | actually it's .equals |
| 02:52 | < McM|travails> | Ah so, in that case, Map<Vertex, Integer> is exactly what you want, yeah |
| 02:52 | <@simon`> | cool |
| 02:52 | < McM|travails> | You can even make it int if you're using a reasonably modern Java and it should autounbox, I think? |
| 02:52 | <@simon`> | ummm ok |
| 02:53 | <@simon`> | sure. I use Java 7. |
| 02:53 | < McM|travails> | Yeah |
| 02:53 | < McM|travails> | I think that went in in Java 5 or something |
| 02:53 | < McM|travails> | I forget if Maps count though |
| 02:53 | <@simon`> | you use Java a lot, right? |
| 02:53 | | * McM|travails shrug |
| 02:53 | < McM|travails> | Not really, tbh |
| 02:53 | <@simon`> | I thought you did research on the JVM. |
| 02:53 | < McM|travails> | I used to be an expert on JVM internals, but that was back in the 1.4 days |
| 02:53 | <@simon`> | ah |
| 02:53 | < McM|travails> | There's been a lot of water under the bridge since then :D |
| 02:54 | < McM|travails> | I can use Java, and have, for a number of applications, but it's not one of my go-to languages |
| 02:54 | <@simon`> | I imagine large VMs like those are like living organisms :) |
| 02:54 | < McM|travails> | Heh |
| 02:54 | < McM|travails> | There aren't annotations in the human genetic code where God goes "whoops, my bad" for putting the optic nerve in backwards~ |
| 02:54 | <&ToxicFrog> | TBQH I have never observed auto(un)boxing to DWIW even on recent Javas; I'd not rely on it ever at this point. |
| 02:55 | < McM|travails> | But Guy L. Steele *does* apologize for fucking up how Long and Double constants (fail to) work in constant pools |
| 02:55 | < McM|travails> | in the spec |
| 02:55 | <@simon`> | if I do: Integer a, b; a = ...; b = ...; if (a < b), that implies auto-unboxing but is possible, right? |
| 02:55 | < McM|travails> | Oog |
| 02:56 | < McM|travails> | Back in 1.4 you'd have to do if (a.intValue() < b.intValue()). |
| 02:56 | < McM|travails> | Though a.compare(b) would work right |
| 02:56 | < McM|travails> | (Which is what, say, TreeMap would use) |
| 02:57 | <&ToxicFrog> | (ok, to be actually honest my answer these days would be "use a JVM language other than Java"~) |
| 02:57 | | Kindamoody[zZz] is now known as Kindamoody |
| 02:58 | < McM|travails> | (That first jump from 10kB binary to 3MB binary really stungs, though~) |
| 02:58 | <@simon`> | ToxicFrog, I'd probably use Jython or Clojure if it weren't because I'm doing a guided solution to an assignment on a Java course. :-P |
| 02:59 | <@simon`> | McM|travails, how small a ScriptEngine can you get... I imagine Clojure's isn't that big? |
| 02:59 | < McM|travails> | I've been meaning to get back into Java so that I can do some Android stuff,, but it turns out there isn't any Android things I actually want to do. |
| 02:59 | < McM|travails> | Clojure uberjars tend to be a few megs. |
| 02:59 | <&ToxicFrog> | (as a practical matter even a pure-Java solution is going to be several megabytes if I want to support anything other than linux, so0 |
| 02:59 | <@simon`> | I did a Tamaguchi app for my Android and realized how annoying it was. |
| 03:00 | < McM|travails> | (Yes, for any real problem, but many things that are me messing around are not real problems~) |
| 03:00 | <&ToxicFrog> | (no, I mean, "even Hello World needs to be bundled with the entire JVM if I want windows support"_ |
| 03:00 | <&ToxicFrog> | (wow, I'm terrible at hitting ')' today) |
| 03:01 | <@simon`> | I didn't like how Android app-writing affects your Java style. e.g., don't use enums, because they blow up the binary because of a lack of optimization. |
| 03:01 | < McM|travails> | Java's idea of "enums" do not sit well with me anyway. |
| 03:02 | | * simon` is hiding in the statistics dept. and now the entire building is making very unfamiliar sounds. they somehow remind me of Bad Taste and how the house is really a spaceship. |
| 03:03 | <@simon`> | I don't have an opinion about Java's enums, except that I like that they're more typesafe than simple integers. |
| 03:04 | | * McM|travails has a certain distaste for pervasive virtual methods as a form of polymorphism, which sort of makes him a crank |
| 03:04 | < McM|travails> | I'm fine with it at the module level! |
| 03:05 | < McM|travails> | And I guess I'm also fine with it when I can think of objects as agents. |
| 03:05 | <@simon`> | what are pervasive virtual methods? |
| 03:05 | < McM|travails> | Ones that are all over the program instead of just during setup. |
| 03:06 | < McM|travails> | I guess the buzzword for the thing I'm explicitly OK with here is "dependency injection" |
| 03:06 | < McM|travails> | ANd I'm also OK with, say, giving each game object its own update() method |
| 03:07 | < McM|travails> | But otherwise I feel like I'm trying to re-implement higher-order functions badly, because either I or the library writer I'm working with was in fact doing that. |
| 03:07 | <@simon`> | I feel like that when coding Java. |
| 03:07 | < McM|travails> | Yeah. I also get it in C++ and Python and ObjC. :D |
| 03:08 | < McM|travails> | (These days, my "professional" languages are C++ and Python, and that's less "being a language lawyer" and more "have adopted some disciplines that work" |
| 03:09 | <@simon`> | it occurred to me that the "Command" design pattern resembles lambdas, so I can extend an abstract class, containing some method, anonymously and execute it immediately. ;-D |
| 03:10 | <@simon`> | I don't have any languages that I'm really good at. I've been using Haskell, Standard ML and Erlang on courses for the past year, and I'm hoping I can score SOME kind of job using one of those... it's a far shot, though... I'm betting either finance with O'Caml or advertising with Erlang. |
| 03:16 | <@simon`> | public abstract Lambda<X, Y> { public abstract Y beta(X); }; Foo foo = (new Lambda<Bar,Foo>() { public Foo beta(Bar bar) { ...; } }).beta(...); :P |
| 03:17 | <&ToxicFrog> | I've got a Python job, which is not my ideal but is a big step up from what I was doing before. |
| 03:18 | < McM|travails> | simon: Note that in C++ you have boost::bind and boost::function, even in the old, actually-implemented standard |
| 03:20 | <@simon`> | ToxicFrog, I just don't want to do web-applications unless I can avoid it, or unless I can do it in some nice language. and Python isn't nice enough for doing web stuff, I think. |
| 03:20 | <@simon`> | s/unless/if/ |
| 03:21 | <@simon`> | but really, unless I can avoid it isn't false. I like doing small web pages so long as I don't have to. :) |
| 03:23 | <&ToxicFrog> | Yeah, I'm avoiding the shit out of web apps. |
| 03:24 | <&ToxicFrog> | What I'm moving on from, though, is embedded systems programming in C and C++. |
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| 03:32 | <@simon`> | ToxicFrog, you liked that less? |
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| 03:38 | <&ToxicFrog> | Less than non-web development in Python? Oooooh yeah. |
| 03:38 | <&ToxicFrog> | I am so over low level programming. |
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| 04:35 | <@simon`> | quick Java question: if I "break;" inside a nested loop, it only affects the inner loop, right? |
| 04:35 | | * simon` grabs Java Precisely |
| 04:36 | <@rms> | Yes |
| 04:36 | <@simon`> | thanks! |
| 04:36 | <@rms> | IIRC Java has labels but not gotos. |
| 04:36 | <@simon`> | yes. |
| 04:36 | <@simon`> | as in, right. |
| 04:37 | <@rms> | Either that or it does the PHP thing and break accepts an int. |
| 04:37 | <@simon`> | it does support labels. |
| 04:37 | <@simon`> | and not numbers. |
| 04:38 | <&ToxicFrog> | I can't offhand think of any language where unqualified-break breaks anything but the inmost loop. |
| 04:38 | <@simon`> | I just never use break in nested loops, so I can never remember. |
| 04:39 | <@simon`> | on the other hand, I often return inside a nested loop, so I probably confuse the two and assume break has similar semantics, although that'd be less useful. |
| 04:39 | <@simon`> | oh well. thanks :) |
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| 05:14 | | * thalass idly wonders if the config file for the various Kerbonauts in KSP is somewhere easily accessible. And easily editable. |
| 05:15 | <&ToxicFrog> | thalass: yes and yes |
| 05:15 | < thalass> | I cannot find it. :/ |
| 05:15 | <&ToxicFrog> | saves/<name>/*.sfs |
| 05:15 | <&ToxicFrog> | persistent.sfs is the main save file, quicksave.sfs is the quicksave. |
| 05:16 | <&ToxicFrog> | Note that changes made to persistent.sfs while in flight will be overwritten by the game; back out to the VAB before editing, or edit the quicksave and then reload it with F9. |
| 05:16 | <&ToxicFrog> | There's a series of CREW blocks near the start containing crew stats and, if dead, time of death. |
| 05:17 | < thalass> | Huh. So if i was to add a new kerbonaut (say: Thalass Kerman), would he be available for new flights? |
| 05:17 | <&ToxicFrog> | Ummm |
| 05:17 | <&ToxicFrog> | I think that, when you start a flight, it takes as many non-dead kerbonauts as it can from the file, in the same order they appear |
| 05:17 | <&ToxicFrog> | And if it doesn't have enough it generates new ones |
| 05:17 | <&ToxicFrog> | So probably |
| 05:18 | <&ToxicFrog> | You could also edit an existing one to rename him |
| 05:18 | | * thalass nods |
| 05:19 | < thalass> | That's one thing KSP needs to work on: An in-game UI to choose which Kerbonauts you want for a particular flight. So you don't have to EVA/end flight to get a single kerbonaut flying a three-seater or anything. |
| 05:20 | | * thalass tries it |
| 05:54 | <~Vornicus> | I occasionally miss labelled loops in Python. Sometimes I want to break out of two loops |
| 05:58 | <@simon`> | hmm |
| 05:59 | <@simon`> | so, I finally implemented http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Path-based_strong_component_algorithm and I realize that what the algorithm calls a "strongly connected component" also includes "trivial" cases with just one element in them that doesn't actually refer to itself. |
| 05:59 | <@celticminstrel> | ...how does one break out of two loops in Python, anyway? |
| 06:00 | <@simon`> | celticminstrel, I'm afraid the matrix has you. |
| 06:00 | <@celticminstrel> | ? |
| 07:00 | < McM|travails> | Throwing an exception should work |
| 07:03 | <@celticminstrel> | But adds an extra level of indentation. :/ |
| 07:04 | <@celticminstrel> | What about making the inner loop something like "for ...: ... else: continue"? |
| 07:04 | <@celticminstrel> | And then ending the outer loop with a break statement. |
| 07:08 | < McM|travails> | Break your for loops into a separate function, use "return" to multibreak |
| 07:08 | | Kindamoody is now known as Kindamoody|out |
| 07:08 | <@celticminstrel> | Well yes, that's always an option. :P |
| 07:09 | <@celticminstrel> | But I liked my "for: (for: (...) else: (continue) break)" idea! (Using parentheses to show indentation levels.) |
| 07:09 | <@celticminstrel> | :P |
| 07:12 | < thalass> | ahaha it worked. ^.^ |
| 07:12 | <@Azash> | celticminstrel: What on earth does for-else do |
| 07:13 | <@Azash> | Or is this some Python thing? |
| 07:13 | <@celticminstrel> | thalass: Huh? |
| 07:14 | <@celticminstrel> | Azash: It's a strange Python thing. The else triggers if no break was executed. |
| 07:14 | <@celticminstrel> | If I recall correctly. |
| 07:14 | < thalass> | I added myself as a Kerbal in KSP. A bit sad, but y'know. :P |
| 07:15 | <@celticminstrel> | ? |
| 07:15 | <@celticminstrel> | What worked? |
| 07:15 | | * thalass points up to what ToxicFrog last said. |
| 07:16 | <@celticminstrel> | Oh, way up there. |
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| 08:13 | | thalass is now known as Thalass|afk |
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| 08:38 | < ErikMesoy> | It seems that when I bind a button to a method in wxPython, said method can only have the arguments (self, event) because it's only called with those from somewhere inside the library. What would I do to be able to call a button method with parameters? |
| 08:39 | <~Vornicus> | celmin recalls correctly. |
| 08:39 | < ErikMesoy> | As it is, I will have to manually populate the method of each button with its result, and I'm looking to have buttons that pull info from a database somewhere. |
| 08:40 | <~Vornicus> | My klotski solver included a continue (to avoid reprocessing visited nodes), a break (to fire when I've found the solution), and an else (to throw when I give it an impossible problem). |
| 08:41 | <@froztbyte> | <ErikMesoy> why is it that all my insights come late in the evening? |
| 08:41 | <@froztbyte> | brain states |
| 08:42 | <@froztbyte> | like, prevalence of alpha/beta/delta waves at various times of the day |
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| 09:50 | | You're now known as TheWatcher |
| 10:17 | < ErikMesoy> | Random thought: one really encouraging side to reinventing/reimplementing the wheel is knowing that THIS IS DOABLE. |
| 10:18 | < ErikMesoy> | No existential uncertainty from wondering whether there exists a way to do this thing at all. |
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| 10:36 | | * Azash notes that the wheel has been reinvented many times, usually with significant improvements |
| 11:10 | | * ErikMesoy sneaks around button method parameters by giving buttons complex internal IDs and using the IDs for lookup. |
| 11:21 | | * ErikMesoy simplifies the IDs. |
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| 13:55 | < AbuDhabi> | Does SATA use the same electrical standards for power supply as PATA? |
| 13:57 | <@froztbyte> | yes |
| 13:57 | <@froztbyte> | the connector is different |
| 13:57 | < AbuDhabi> | That's my problem, yes. |
| 13:57 | <@froztbyte> | but the physical supply lines are the same |
| 13:58 | < AbuDhabi> | I have a defunct PSU with a couple of SATA plugs, and a functioning PATA-type PSU. It seems I need to make a converter. |
| 13:59 | <@froztbyte> | order a convertor from dealextreme :) |
| 13:59 | <@himi> | Get a new PSU |
| 13:59 | <@himi> | It'd be as easy as getting hold of an adapter |
| 13:59 | <@froztbyte> | unless you're confident in your ability to make solid joins with cable |
| 13:59 | <@himi> | Yeah |
| 13:59 | <@froztbyte> | since you don't really want bad joins in your box |
| 14:00 | <@froztbyte> | (which I'm going to guess you're probably not, based on your opening question) |
| 14:00 | < AbuDhabi> | It's not a box. The defunct PSU is a desktop model, but the working one is the complementary part for a PATA/SATA-USB setup. |
| 14:01 | <@himi> | If you have the skills necessary to make an adapter, you probably wouldn't be asking these questions |
| 14:01 | < AbuDhabi> | Unless I consider you guys more trustworthy and faster than Google. |
| 14:01 | <@froztbyte> | AbuDhabi: it's doale |
| 14:02 | <@froztbyte> | doable* |
| 14:02 | <@froztbyte> | I just wouldn't advise it without some practice |
| 14:02 | <@himi> | If you screw up you may well fry the PSU and the drive, which is why you'd want to be pretty careful |
| 14:02 | <@froztbyte> | still, no time to learn like the present :) |
| 14:02 | <@froztbyte> | and yeah, practice on other stuff |
| 14:02 | <@froztbyte> | because if you get it wrong, bzzt :P |
| 14:03 | <@froztbyte> | few PSUs have multiple power rails, and even fewer have decent isolation/protection between those |
| 14:03 | <@froztbyte> | so a screw-up in one single bit can basically destroy everything under the right sort of wrong conditions |
| 14:07 | < AbuDhabi> | I've basically got this: http://i00.i.aliimg.com/wsphoto/v0/437301318/USB-2-0-font-b-TO-b-font-font-b-SAT A-b-font-font-b-IDE.jpg |
| 14:07 | < AbuDhabi> | Except I lost the SATA power cable. |
| 14:08 | < AbuDhabi> | The SATA power cables I do have are a tiny bit different, in that they have an additional orange cable to the red/black/black/yellow setup. |
| 14:10 | < AbuDhabi> | Okay, here's the pinout: http://i114.photobucket.com/albums/n243/sk8er83329/sata_power_cable_pinout.jpg |
| 14:11 | < AbuDhabi> | Seems simple enough. |
| 14:11 | < AbuDhabi> | Simply cut, then put them in the correct connectors and not screw up somehow. |
| 14:15 | < AbuDhabi> | Hum. The PATA connector I have seems to have only one GND. I guess I'd connect both the SATA GNDs to it, then, because GND is GND, right? |
| 14:15 | <@himi> | It should be pretty simple - the problem is, if you do screw up somehow you can fry everything |
| 14:16 | <@himi> | So if you care about the hardware you're plugging in you need to be careful |
| 14:17 | <@himi> | All that said . . . if you have some reasonably basic electronics experience you can probably do it without any issues |
| 14:17 | < AbuDhabi> | I do. |
| 14:18 | < AbuDhabi> | (Just a few of weeks ago, I was working in a warehouse and someone broke the automatic door, so we had to connect the wires for it to work again. It did!) |
| 14:48 | < AbuDhabi> | It works! |
| 14:49 | < AbuDhabi> | WTF. Why does this newly purchased 750 GB HDD have a Windows system installed on it? |
| 14:49 | <@froztbyte> | because harddrives are often just re-shipped |
| 14:50 | <@froztbyte> | smart counters reset, firmware flashed, and then shipped anew |
| 14:51 | < AbuDhabi> | With the former owner's personal information still inside. I have here some PDFs with some guy's shipment confirmations and stuff. |
| 14:52 | < AbuDhabi> | And their mailbox. |
| 14:52 | < AbuDhabi> | Correction: some chick's. Her digital photos are here too. |
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| 14:56 | <&ToxicFrog> | AbuDhabi: that seems like the kind of thing you should report as a bug. |
| 14:58 | < AbuDhabi> | I'm going to a) send her an email telling her to delete her files before selling/exchanging/returning her computer/disk next time, b) format the drive. |
| 15:00 | <@himi> | Where did you buy it from? |
| 15:01 | < AbuDhabi> | A computer store. Legit, none of this gypsy-in-a-dark-alley shit. |
| 15:01 | <@himi> | Boxed and sealed? |
| 15:01 | < AbuDhabi> | Nope. I got a bubble wrap for it. |
| 15:02 | <@himi> | So probably recycled somewhere short of the manufacturer |
| 15:02 | < AbuDhabi> | Mhm. |
| 15:03 | <@himi> | Definitely worth reporting to the store, but probably not a particularly interesting failure of process |
| 15:03 | <@himi> | If it /did/ come from the manufacturer it'd likely indicate a genuine issue somewhere |
| 15:06 | < AbuDhabi> | Actually, I think I'll ask her if she wants any of this data back before deleting it. Might be prudent. |
| 15:16 | | * AbuDhabi sends a respectful message. |
| 15:28 | <@froztbyte> | ToxicFrog / himi: seriously, this happens far more than you'd think |
| 15:28 | <@froztbyte> | a friend of mine was at a company where they had some pretty serious hard drive usage |
| 15:28 | <@froztbyte> | like multiple thousands of the things |
| 15:29 | <@froztbyte> | and at one point it was something ridiculous (think 1 in a 100) of "refurb" units that ended up just being shipped again |
| 15:29 | <@froztbyte> | buying directly from drive vendors |
| 15:29 | <&ToxicFrog> | |
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| 16:28 | | * simon` trolls 3rd year Java TAs with his ideas of expressing the Y-combinator using parametrized, abstract classes |
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| 19:32 | <@simon`> | celticminstrel, sorry, bad joke on the matrix. I imagine if you're in a nested loop and you can't break out of it, you're computing a matrix of information. :-P |
| 19:33 | <@simon`> | (this is of course not true for all nested loops) |
| 19:34 | <@celticminstrel> | Whoa, belated response... |
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| 20:00 | <@iospace> | ah the joys of waiting for tests to run |
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| 20:24 | <@Azash> | iospace: Our old testing lecturer did say that the best part about testing was that you could put them on and drink coffee for a couple of hours |
| 20:24 | <@iospace> | i may or may not be reading fanfics |
| 20:24 | <@Azash> | He was the worst lecturer the department ever had though, so I don't know how valid that is |
| 20:24 | <@iospace> | haha |
| 20:24 | <@iospace> | well see the thing is i'm looking for a very specific problem, and it has my board in use |
| 20:25 | <@Tarinaky> | Your tests probably shouldn't take a couple of hours unless they're integration/acceptance tests. |
| 20:25 | <@Tarinaky> | Unit tests are meant to be quick so you can run them lots. |
| 20:25 | <@Tarinaky> | No/ |
| 20:26 | <@iospace> | Tarinaky: these are cycle tests :P |
| 20:26 | <@iospace> | *power cycle |
| 20:26 | <@iospace> | i know there's an error that exists, but i have yet to recreate it in my current set up |
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| 20:43 | <@iospace> | thankfully the result i'm looking for isn't exactly time critical so :P |
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| --- Log closed Fri Dec 28 00:00:14 2012 |