| --- Log opened Sat Oct 13 00:00:46 2012 |
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| 00:51 | | mode/#code [+o himi] by ChanServ |
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| 01:46 | < Azash> | Hee hee |
| 01:46 | < Azash> | "vim - lightweight, highly extensible, keyboard driven, massive learning curve, cross-platform, way better than Emacs |
| 01:46 | < Azash> | emacs - lightweight, highly extensible, keyboard driven, massive learning curve, cross-platform, way better than Vim" |
| 01:49 | < Namegduf> | They're totally identical! |
| 01:49 | < Namegduf> | Wait, no, it's the other thing |
| 01:51 | <&McMartin> | At this point vim and emacs *are* about equally lightweight -_- |
| 01:52 | < Azash> | Insert old joke about emacs needing a good text editor |
| 01:52 | <&McMartin> | Just you wait until it turns into a bootable OS thanks to EFI |
| 01:53 | <&Derakon> | $ ls -hl /usr/bin/vim /usr/bin/emacs |
| 01:53 | <&Derakon> | -r-xr-xr-x 1 root wheel 25M Jan 29 2011 /usr/bin/emacs |
| 01:53 | <&Derakon> | -rwxr-xr-x 1 root wheel 2.7M Aug 10 2010 /usr/bin/vim |
| 01:53 | <&Derakon> | I mean, sure, 25MB is still pretty irrelevant these days. |
| 01:53 | <&Derakon> | But it's still an order of magnitude difference! |
| 01:54 | <&McMartin> | Yup. both of those are small enough that I'd save no appreciable space on my pocket thumb drive by cleaning them off, and both of them are too large to fit on a floppy disk. |
| 01:54 | <&Derakon> | ...floppy...disk? |
| 01:54 | | * Vornicus patpats der |
| 01:54 | <&McMartin> | The next size down from 8 GB is 1.44MB, yes~ |
| 01:55 | <~Vornicus> | no, 8gb 4.7gb 700mb 1.44mb |
| 01:55 | <&McMartin> | Mmm, I guess |
| 01:55 | <~Vornicus> | But still. |
| 01:55 | <&McMartin> | Those latter two generally aren't rewritable though |
| 01:56 | <&McMartin> | Meanwhile, nano is 198KB. |
| 01:56 | <&McMartin> | And ed is 50KB! |
| 01:56 | <&McMartin> | THE STANDARD EDITOR. |
| 01:56 | <~Vornicus> | the standard editor |
| 01:56 | <~Vornicus> | dammit you beat me to it |
| 01:58 | <&McMartin> | Worth noting: /usr/bin/yes is 27KB. |
| 01:58 | <&McMartin> | ed is less than twice the size of yes. |
| 01:59 | <&Derakon> | Alternatively, whoever built yes linked in a bunch of crap they probably didn't actually need~ |
| 01:59 | <&McMartin> | Links nothing but libc and the two cores for linux binaries. |
| 02:00 | <&McMartin> | (Also, yes takes a shitload of options because it's a general input spammer) |
| 02:02 | < Azash> | iospace: Do you know any good sources for how to get started with x86/nasm? |
| 02:03 | < iospace> | not really ^^;; |
| 02:03 | < iospace> | i learned in a class |
| 02:03 | | * Azash nods |
| 02:03 | <&McMartin> | Azash: Cynically, "start with MIPS or ARM, then migrate over" |
| 02:04 | <&McMartin> | Also, for x86 you also need to work out whether you intend to aim for 16-, 32- or 64-bit code. |
| 02:04 | < Azash> | Well, I've been told ARM is much simpler, but I'm on a shoestring budget even without buying hardware to learn assembly with :P |
| 02:04 | <&McMartin> | ARM also has extensive hardware simulators. |
| 02:05 | <&McMartin> | Like VisualBoyAdvance >_> |
| 02:05 | <&McMartin> | More to the point, why are you trying to learn assembler here |
| 02:05 | < Azash> | Out of general interest |
| 02:05 | | * Vornicus once started on an ARM disassembler |
| 02:06 | <&McMartin> | Hm, OK, let's try that again |
| 02:06 | <&McMartin> | "What is the part here you're interested in?" |
| 02:06 | <~Vornicus> | I got surprisingly far and then got bored. |
| 02:06 | <&McMartin> | Since there's a few interlocking bits and they're more often separate when dealing with modern systems |
| 02:06 | | * Azash starts counting on fingers |
| 02:06 | <&McMartin> | There's "I want to learn what compilers do", there's "I want to work out human-workable ways to do the things compilers do", there's "I want to work at the lowest possible level"... |
| 02:07 | <&McMartin> | ... the similar, but subtly different "I want complete control of the machine"... |
| 02:07 | < Azash> | I did some dummy assembler and it appeals to some deranged part of my mind, so I want to learn a proper one; |
| 02:07 | <&McMartin> | ... interest in system architecture |
| 02:07 | <&McMartin> | What does "dummy assembler" mean here? |
| 02:08 | < Azash> | I'm interested in all things lower-level and I want to learn how it really interfaces with the underlying hardware; |
| 02:08 | <&McMartin> | Mmm |
| 02:08 | <&McMartin> | In that case, it's not assembler you want, it's driver design |
| 02:08 | <&McMartin> | Or OS design |
| 02:08 | <&McMartin> | Much of that work is in C with dropping down into assembler |
| 02:08 | < Azash> | I want to get a more intuitive understanding of calling/interrupts/other flow-distruptive elements that power an operating system; |
| 02:08 | <&McMartin> | Modern assembly program has a lot of "call into the operating system to have it do the work for you" |
| 02:09 | < Azash> | And I'm fascinated by security-related reverse engineering and would like to be at least a bit competent at it |
| 02:09 | <&McMartin> | Complete hardware control involves writing bootloaders or retrocomputing these days |
| 02:09 | < Azash> | I think that's about it |
| 02:09 | <&McMartin> | OK |
| 02:09 | <&McMartin> | The OS-powering stuff is done in OS stuff, which is mostly actually at the C level. |
| 02:10 | <&McMartin> | reverse engineering is about reading assembler more than writing it, and getting a copy of IDA Pro and pointing it at stuff is as good a start as any |
| 02:10 | < Azash> | By dummy assembler I mean that I did a bsc-level comp org class that uses a primitive virtual machine-like thing where you put in assembly code in it's very constrained instruction set and get output with optional visualization of the step-by-step events |
| 02:10 | <&McMartin> | Ah, OK |
| 02:10 | <&McMartin> | My program used MIPS for that >_> |
| 02:11 | <&McMartin> | Anyway |
| 02:11 | <&McMartin> | gcc with the -S option will produce assembler files. |
| 02:11 | <&McMartin> | There are two formats assemblers can use for instructions for Intel chips, and they invert the order of the operands |
| 02:11 | <&McMartin> | So that's generally hilarious, all told |
| 02:11 | <&McMartin> | (Basically, you've got NASM format and you've got AT&T format; gcc -s uses the latter) |
| 02:11 | < Azash> | Right |
| 02:11 | <&McMartin> | I forget what IDA Pro uses |
| 02:12 | <&McMartin> | But to learn to *read* assembler, I'd say "get some assembler programs and start working through them", with maybe some references handy. |
| 02:13 | <&McMartin> | Starting in the mid-late 1990s, arguably earlier outside of consumer tech, instruction sets were designed to be easy to generate efficient compiled code for, not for being efficiently writable by humans |
| 02:13 | < Azash> | Personally, I'm not very good at reading any kind of code until I've actually used it myself |
| 02:13 | < Azash> | Well, that's just added challenge :P |
| 02:13 | <&McMartin> | s/challenge/tedium/ ~ |
| 02:13 | <&McMartin> | But yeah, I'd go for web tutorials |
| 02:14 | <&McMartin> | And I'd aim for IA32 specifically. |
| 02:14 | < Einar> | http://notalwaysworking.com/abject-oriented-programming/26814 |
| 02:14 | < Einar> | Just as it's related to here. |
| 02:14 | < Azash> | Any reason not to go for amd64 or ia64? |
| 02:14 | <&McMartin> | 16-bit is only useful for targeting DOSBox, and amd64 is really, *really* designed for compilers. |
| 02:15 | < Azash> | Right |
| 02:15 | <&McMartin> | ia64 is designed for compilers from an alternate universe where the last 20 years of compiler research were in different subjects. |
| 02:15 | < Azash> | Also, for what it's worth, McMartin: http://www.cs.helsinki.fi/group/titokone/ttk91_ref_en.html |
| 02:15 | < Azash> | Haha |
| 02:15 | <&McMartin> | I was a compilers guy here |
| 02:16 | <&McMartin> | IA64 is "very long instruction word" which basically "it is the job of the compiler to provide the parallelism in the code, instead of having the chip do instruction reordering to get the pipeline to go faster, which is what x86 and amd64 do" |
| 02:16 | <&McMartin> | That's the one they called "Itanic" |
| 02:17 | <&McMartin> | IA32 has the full instruction set and then it also has a subset that is easy to make the hardware do super-fast |
| 02:17 | <&McMartin> | Compilers use that subset. |
| 02:17 | < gnolam> | Ia! Ia! 32! |
| 02:17 | <&McMartin> | AMD64 basically gives you 64-bit versions of that subset's instructions. |
| 02:17 | < Azash> | Right |
| 02:17 | <&McMartin> | So step one for learning AMD64 is "learn IA32 first" |
| 02:18 | <&McMartin> | But if you just want to get the hang of register juggling and managing your own stack and heap, I'd honestly start with ARM and an emulator of some kind. |
| 02:18 | <&McMartin> | That also gives you (kinda) complete hardware control, which is nice. |
| 02:18 | < Azash> | Bootstrapping knowledge~ |
| 02:19 | <&McMartin> | The Game Boy Advance is actually a pretty clean hardware set to target, and if you're just playing with Assembler you don't even need the proprietary BIOS. |
| 02:19 | | * McMartin - being of a certain age - is more 8-bit. |
| 02:20 | | * McMartin built his own toolchain for C64 and NES development. |
| 02:20 | | * Azash picked wisdom as his dump stat |
| 02:20 | <&McMartin> | Heh |
| 02:20 | < Azash> | That's pretty cool |
| 02:20 | <&McMartin> | Those chips don't *really* have registers as we know them, but the 16-bit x86 chips owe more to their philosophy than to modern design. |
| 02:21 | <&McMartin> | The later ones - which operate in what used to be called "protected mode" - migrate more in the ARMish direction. |
| 02:21 | <&McMartin> | This is actually another good reason to start on something like the ARM, because it lets you pick up the philosophy of modern assembly without wading through the mishmash of history x86 drags along with it. |
| 02:22 | < Azash> | Right |
| 02:22 | | * gnolam hugs his old 68k. |
| 02:23 | <&McMartin> | I've written reasonably extensively on how you do modern stuff on the 8-bit chips |
| 02:23 | <&McMartin> | http://michaelcmartin.github.com/Ophis/book/p481.html |
| 02:23 | < gnolam> | (Really, ARM does all it did and better, but still) |
| 02:23 | < Azash> | But yeah, the thing is, I'm mostly into it to, for lack of better term, absorb the concepts and approach of assembler |
| 02:23 | <&Derakon> | So basically you just want to do l ow-level programming. |
| 02:23 | < Azash> | I'm not saying I want to necessarily be a super good asm developer but rather have a fairly intuitive understanding of how it works |
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| 02:26 | <&McMartin> | Right |
| 02:26 | <&McMartin> | Yeah, honestly, for building the intuition I'd go with a book on ARM development, with simulated GBA as the target platform |
| 02:26 | <&McMartin> | (or just a simulator that lets you look at memory results) |
| 02:26 | <&McMartin> | Hm, have I pinged out? |
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| 02:27 | <~Vornicus> | No, but there was a bigass netsplit |
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| 02:27 | | * ToxicFrog upreads |
| 02:28 | <&ToxicFrog> | Re asm: I started out with the MC68K (in school) and i386 (reverse engineering DOS programs using IDA Pro) |
| 02:28 | <&McMartin> | gnolam: ISTR that both the Amiga and the classic Macintosh had fairly extensive OS layers. Did the 68k have any platforms that gave you massive control? |
| 02:29 | <&ToxicFrog> | I later moved on to writing a compiler for a simple RISC machine, and designing my own CPU and ISA (and writing my own assembler for it), both of which were a lot more fun |
| 02:29 | < Azash> | Woo |
| 02:29 | < Azash> | ToxicFrog: Nice |
| 02:29 | <&ToxicFrog> | gnolam: the ones we had had a monitor on the test board that came with a bunch of handy routines for string IO and the like, not sure I'd call it an OS though |
| 02:30 | <&ToxicFrog> | (the textbook came with a complete source code listing for the monitor, which was occasionally handy) |
| 02:30 | <&McMartin> | Er, is that at me? |
| 02:30 | <&ToxicFrog> | Er |
| 02:30 | <&ToxicFrog> | Yes |
| 02:30 | <&McMartin> | OK, that's mostly what our MIPS simulators did |
| 02:30 | <&McMartin> | But we didn't feed our programs to real hardware because there was no real profit to it |
| 02:30 | <&ToxicFrog> | Oh, we had simulators as well |
| 02:31 | <~Vornicus> | I always read "MIPS" as a unit of measure instead of an architecture |
| 02:31 | < gnolam> | The 68k had platforms that gave you /total/ control. |
| 02:31 | <&ToxicFrog> | But we also had real hardware, and you were expected to be able to demonstrate your code running on it |
| 02:31 | <&McMartin> | gnolam: Yeah, but I don't know which ones both existed and were any fun |
| 02:31 | <&ToxicFrog> | Also in case you wanted to attach some other peripheral to it for a project or something |
| 02:31 | <&McMartin> | To be the equivalent of the C64 or GBA here. |
| 02:31 | < gnolam> | Also, handy routines for string IO? Pah! We ate /cold/ gravel, and we liked it! |
| 02:31 | <&McMartin> | Amigas, I thought, required you to play with the windowing system, and I *know* Macs did. |
| 02:32 | <&McMartin> | Arrrrrr, mateys, *we* had to read our strings right out of the RAM! |
| 02:32 | <&ToxicFrog> | gnolam: well, "handy" by asm standards~ |
| 02:32 | <&ToxicFrog> | Yeah, no windowing system here, text only |
| 02:32 | <&McMartin> | Well, I don't know much about Amigas, either |
| 02:32 | <&ToxicFrog> | Azash: if you have a chance to dabble in CPU design at the gate/HDL level, I recommend it as rather a lot of fun~ |
| 02:33 | <&McMartin> | So there might be some setup code that basically goes "Workbench, go away for a bit, come back when I'm done" |
| 02:33 | <&ToxicFrog> | (the silicon level is really quite unpleasantly analog, though) |
| 02:33 | < Azash> | ToxicFrog: That sounds completely awesome and I hope I do |
| 02:33 | < gnolam> | McMartin: not really, no. |
| 02:33 | < Azash> | But, knowing my luck, I'll end up pushing out Spring apps for the next 40 years.. :P |
| 02:33 | < gnolam> | The Amiga was as flexible as you needed it to be. :) |
| 02:33 | <&McMartin> | That's what improbable hobby projects are for! |
| 02:34 | <&ToxicFrog> | Azash: I'm pretty sure you can do it with free tools these days! Not sure how much an FPGA costs if you want to see it running on real silicon, though |
| 02:34 | <&ToxicFrog> | I was doing this in school, so we got access to the FPGA lab |
| 02:34 | | * Azash does the Dr. Evil pinky-in-mouth thing |
| 02:35 | < Azash> | You know, I kind of regret picking CS lately.. But I don't want to change either or I'll basically throw four years away |
| 02:35 | <&ToxicFrog> | (there's a "Digital Systems Design" course that gives you the basics of gate-level IC design, and then two courses that go up and down from that - the oddly-named VLSI Design course looks at the design of individual gates at the silicon level, and Computer Organization and Design uses what you learned in DSD to design and map an entire CPU) |
| 02:36 | < Azash> | Nice |
| 02:36 | <&ToxicFrog> | (granted, an itty bitty CPU with 16-bit instructions and a tiny address space, but still) |
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| 02:37 | <&ToxicFrog> | These were engineering courses where I was, but CS students could still take them (and there was a CS-hosted equivalent of the first one) |
| 02:37 | < Azash> | I can take engineering courses but it requires an agreement with another university |
| 02:37 | <&ToxicFrog> | Oh |
| 02:37 | <&ToxicFrog> | That's inconvenient |
| 02:37 | < Azash> | As here we have the university and the technical university as entirely separate organizations |
| 02:38 | <&ToxicFrog> | I just needed a signature from the professor letting me ignore the prerequisites |
| 02:38 | < Azash> | Mm |
| 02:38 | <&McMartin> | We had two departments, CS and EECS, but they were very tightly bound for the technical parts. |
| 02:38 | < Azash> | The agreement is really just a formality, though |
| 02:38 | <&McMartin> | But then, I was at Berkeley |
| 02:38 | < Azash> | Lucky sod :P |
| 02:38 | <&McMartin> | This is, uh, also why we studied MIPS >_> |
| 02:38 | < Azash> | Though, for a public-funding department, ours is elit?.. |
| 02:39 | <&McMartin> | If you don't mind me asking, where are you? |
| 02:39 | <&ToxicFrog> | McMartin: yeah, the engineering department here is "Physical and Engineering Sciences" and is entirely separate from CS, although there is a fair bit of cross-pollination |
| 02:39 | < Azash> | University of Helsinki, CS |
| 02:39 | <&McMartin> | nod nod |
| 02:39 | < Azash> | Yourself? |
| 02:39 | < Azash> | Wait |
| 02:39 | < Azash> | Doh |
| 02:39 | <&ToxicFrog> | CS used to be under CPES, but is now a school in its own right |
| 02:39 | <&McMartin> | I'm now a few dozen km west, on the peninsula south of San Francisco ;-) |
| 02:40 | <&ToxicFrog> | ...where does that put you relative to Mountain View? |
| 02:40 | <&McMartin> | (Also, Berkeley is teeeechnically also a public school, though in recent years California's budgetary problems have made this be less so) |
| 02:40 | <&ToxicFrog> | Because I'll be in the area later this year. |
| 02:40 | <&McMartin> | ToxicFrog: I used to live there; I am now 10 minutes drive north |
| 02:41 | <&ToxicFrog> | (when I fly down for hivemind integration^W^Wtraining and orientation) |
| 02:41 | <&McMartin> | So yeah, let me know, I have a lot of restaurants around there I like excuses to visit~ |
| 02:41 | <&McMartin> | Also we can get The Traditional Doomcookie, which has to date defeated both Kaura and Roscoe |
| 02:42 | <~Vornicus> | ...traditional doomcookie. |
| 02:42 | <&McMartin> | There's a coffeeshop in MV where I wrote most of my thesis. |
| 02:42 | <&McMartin> | It sells vegan cookies. |
| 02:42 | <&McMartin> | "Ew", you say. "Vegan cookies. How does that even work?" |
| 02:42 | <&McMartin> | Well, you can't use butter. So you substitute in cocoa butter. |
| 02:43 | <&McMartin> | You also can't use egg. So you substitute in cocoa butter. |
| 02:43 | <&McMartin> | You also can't use other dairy. So you subsititute in cocoa butter. |
| 02:43 | <&McMartin> | The things *bend* |
| 02:43 | < Azash> | I'd like to introduce you to my friend, mr. Wilford Brimley.. |
| 02:43 | <&McMartin> | And are terrifyingly caloric |
| 02:43 | <&ToxicFrog> | I will hopefully be bringing Symbol with me, we can tag-team it~ |
| 02:44 | < Azash> | 04:39 <&McMartin> I'm now a few dozen km west, on the peninsula south of San Francisco ;-) |
| 02:44 | < Azash> | I was fairly slow at getting this, that's nice |
| 02:45 | <&McMartin> | Anyway. I like downtown mountain view a great deal, and if you want to range north because Google's handling the MV parts for you, there's also a fantastic Persian restaurant here in Redwood City |
| 02:46 | <&McMartin> | TF: Also, give Derakon a heads-up, as he is also local-ish. |
| 02:46 | <&McMartin> | But I think we're the only ones left. |
| 02:47 | <&Derakon> | Yeah, I think you're right. |
| 02:48 | <&McMartin> | (The last few times we've had nightstar gatherings they've been at a specific brewpub/grill in MV.) |
| 02:48 | <&ToxicFrog> | My shadowy contacts at Google tell me that I won't have a lot of free time during integration, but I would at least like to see you each once |
| 02:48 | <&McMartin> | Yeah, and it would be nice to meet Symbol, too. |
| 02:48 | <&McMartin> | You met us both in 2005 in Seattle. |
| 02:49 | <&Derakon> | That was 7 years ago, though. We're basically different people now. |
| 02:49 | <&ToxicFrog> | Yeah, I mean, "while in MV", not "ever" :P |
| 03:08 | < Azash> | I suppose there's no oauth2 binaries widely available for Linux? |
| 03:09 | <&ToxicFrog> | apt-cache says there's a bunch |
| 03:09 | <&ToxicFrog> | Although you'll have to clarify what you mean by "oauth2 binaries" |
| 03:10 | < Azash> | Just a lightweight tool to manage oauth2 client tokens |
| 03:11 | <&ToxicFrog> | Oh |
| 03:11 | <&ToxicFrog> | Maybe not |
| 03:11 | < Azash> | Looking at that newrepo script of mine :P A friend suggested that it should support them, but I'm trying to avoid dependencies, so I'm wondering if there's any fairly widespread tools for it |
| 03:12 | < Azash> | Maybe once they get it standardized |
| 03:15 | <&ToxicFrog> | There's a bunch of C, Python, Perl, Ruby, PHP, and Haskell libs |
| 03:15 | <&ToxicFrog> | Nothing usable from bash, though |
| 03:16 | < Azash> | Hrm hrm |
| 03:16 | < Azash> | You mean nothing directly usable |
| 03:16 | < Azash> | You could always add shoddy hacking to echo the proper code into a temporary file and compile it and use the result and then discard it when done.. :P |
| 03:17 | < Azash> | (of course, not even I am that silly) |
| 03:19 | <&ToxicFrog> | No, that's crazy talk |
| 03:19 | <&ToxicFrog> | You just use a heredocument to pipe it directly from your script into the interpreter |
| 03:19 | <&ToxicFrog> | No need for temporary files |
| 03:19 | < Azash> | Brilliant |
| 03:29 | <&ToxicFrog> | (this is quite easy to do, and quite common - bash makes it easy to include chunks of another language as needed) |
| 03:30 | < Azash> | I'll have to look ito it |
| 03:32 | <&ToxicFrog> | "here-doc" or "here-document" is the search key |
| 03:32 | <&ToxicFrog> | It's quite simple in practice |
| 03:32 | <&ToxicFrog> | python <<EOF |
| 03:32 | <&ToxicFrog> | import sys |
| 03:32 | <&ToxicFrog> | import oath |
| 03:32 | <&ToxicFrog> | ...do a bunch of stuff |
| 03:32 | <&ToxicFrog> | EOF |
| 03:32 | <&ToxicFrog> | Runs 'python', and feeds it all of the stuff between the <<EOF and the EOF on stdin. |
| 03:33 | < Azash> | Nice |
| 03:33 | <&ToxicFrog> | EOF can be anything you want, just pick something that won't show up in the actual text |
| 03:33 | <&ToxicFrog> | It's also commonly used for multi-line help messages; you can go "cat <<EOF ...twenty lines of documentation here... EOF" and not need twenty calls to echo. |
| 03:39 | < Azash> | Thanks, that's useful |
| 03:54 | < Azash> | G'night~ |
| 03:59 | <&ToxicFrog> | 'night |
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| 16:34 | | * Azash looks around |
| 16:46 | | * ToxicFrog fills Azash with LaTeX |
| 16:49 | | * Azash curses ToxicFrog as he is painlessly shapeshifted into a more aesthetically pleasing person |
| 16:55 | <@Tamber> | ...with all the pointy bits of the curly brackets sticking out. :D |
| 16:55 | < Azash> | Latex is nice though |
| 16:56 | < Azash> | I did a one-off IRC bot for my analysis class that would take a latex formula, and reply with a web page that had it visualized |
| 17:00 | < RichyB> | LaTeX :) |
| 17:01 | < RichyB> | I took a class once where the lecturer made everyone take a turn at creating the course notes |
| 17:02 | < RichyB> | every lecture, one person would take notes in the lecture and mark them up in LaTeX and distribute the source and PDF later |
| 17:02 | < RichyB> | it was marked as coursework too. :) |
| 17:02 | < Azash> | Nice |
| 17:03 | <&ToxicFrog> | LaTeX is required learning for all grad students here |
| 17:04 | <&ToxicFrog> | I wish it had been required for undergrads, I didn't pick it until late in my undergrad and it would have saved me so much grief |
| 17:12 | | * iospace curls up on Azash's head |
| 17:18 | | * Azash pats iospace |
| 17:46 | <~Vornicus> | Latex :( |
| 17:51 | <~Vornicus> | Every time I try something in latex I run up against something that is easy in word (for instance, hanging indents) but apparently nobody knows how to do in latex. |
| 17:53 | <~Vornicus> | (or rather, hanging indents in numbered lists) |
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| 18:18 | < Azash> | Hanging indents? |
| 18:20 | <~Vornicus> | A hanging indent is where the second and later lines of a paragraph are indented more than the first. |
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| 18:27 | <~Vornicus> | In Word this is literally a single drag. |
| 18:31 | < Azash> | Vornicus: Ah, I see |
| 18:31 | <~Vornicus> | Getting it done in latex I had five people poking at it and they couldn't find a decent way to do it. |
| 18:32 | < Azash> | "The solution turns out to be to set your left margin in to where you want the hanging lines to be, and then use a negative offset to specify the indentation of the first line." |
| 18:32 | < Azash> | That sounds.. awkward |
| 18:33 | <~Vornicus> | Just slightly. |
| 18:33 | <~Vornicus> | But then I couldn't get numbered lists to do it, which is what I really wanted. |
| 18:40 | | * ToxicFrog writes a quick bash script to tell him how far away he is from finishing his thesis and how fast he has to write to stay on schedule |
| 18:41 | <@Tamber> | "Too far" and "Very", respectively. |
| 18:47 | < Azash> | Sounds about right |
| 18:59 | <&ToxicFrog> | ben@thoth:~/bin$ countdown |
| 18:59 | <&ToxicFrog> | 18 DAYS REMAINING |
| 18:59 | <&ToxicFrog> | 49 PAGES REMAINING |
| 18:59 | <&ToxicFrog> | 3 PAGES PER DAY |
| 19:00 | | * iospace eats ToxicFrog |
| 19:00 | < Azash> | I think it says a lot that you started writing bash scripts instead of your thesis ;P |
| 19:00 | < Azash> | Think it's similar to why I suddenly decided to clean house.. |
| 19:01 | <&ToxicFrog> | It's only ten lines long. Took me thirty seconds. |
| 19:01 | < Azash> | Oh, well |
| 19:05 | | Syka [the@Nightstar-7d752098.lnk.telstra.net] has joined #code |
| 19:05 | < Syka> | ...oh hey, Tamber's here too |
| 19:05 | <@Tamber> | Wuh-oh |
| 19:06 | < iospace> | ... |
| 19:06 | < iospace> | that was a surprise |
| 19:06 | | * Syka noms on Tamber in greeting! |
| 19:06 | | * Tamber bursts. |
| 19:07 | < Syka> | (iospace brought me here, i'm not stalking you, i swear) |
| 19:07 | < iospace> | :P |
| 19:07 | <@Tamber> | *chuckle* |
| 19:08 | < Syka> | unless I am |
| 19:08 | < Syka> | in which case, the plot thickens! |
| 19:08 | < iospace> | but yes, welcome to #crfh Syka ^_^ |
| 19:08 | < iospace> | oops |
| 19:08 | < iospace> | #code |
| 19:08 | < iospace> | not #crfh |
| 19:08 | < iospace> | xD |
| 19:08 | < iospace> | damn tab complete :P |
| 19:09 | | Kindamoody|afk [Kindamoody@Nightstar-05577424.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #code |
| 19:09 | | mode/#code [+o Kindamoody|afk] by ChanServ |
| 19:09 | < Syka> | iospace in charge of spelling :p |
| 19:09 | < iospace> | nah |
| 19:14 | < iospace> | but yes, ranting here is encouraged, especially about design oddities you find |
| 19:14 | < iospace> | :P |
| 19:14 | < iospace> | or code oddities! |
| 19:14 | < Syka> | lul |
| 19:14 | <@Tamber> | "ranting [...] about design oddities" Well, there goes the channel. |
| 19:15 | < Syka> | ahaha knew tamber would say something |
| 19:15 | < Syka> | :3 |
| 19:16 | | * Azash proceeds to rant for two days straight about his own code |
| 19:17 | < Syka> | man |
| 19:18 | < Syka> | you should see the static page generator for the new website at work |
| 19:18 | | * Tamber covers up Klompen, hides. |
| 19:18 | <@Tamber> | I keep meaning to rewrite that so it's less shitty, but I don't know where to start. Plus, I keep getting the feeling I should be "doing something useful" instead. |
| 19:20 | < Syka> | heh |
| 19:20 | < Syka> | well yeah, there are so many hacks |
| 19:21 | < Syka> | i've come to the conclusion that regenerating every single page with a dynamic module is fine |
| 19:21 | < Syka> | as a) the server's dual hexacores sit on 1% constantly |
| 19:21 | < Syka> | and b) rsync's checksum syncing makes it not matter |
| 19:24 | < Syka> | but hey |
| 19:24 | < Syka> | it's not like I was given any allotted time, budget or other resources for the project... heh |
| 19:38 | < iospace> | Syka: intel or amd hexcores |
| 19:39 | < Syka> | iospace: $1200 Intel Xeon hexacores :D |
| 19:39 | < iospace> | and you have two of them/ |
| 19:40 | < iospace> | LGA 2011? |
| 19:41 | < Syka> | uhh |
| 19:41 | < Syka> | 2 sec |
| 19:43 | < Syka> | http://ark.intel.com/products/64591/Intel-Xeon-Processor-E5-2640-15M-Cache-2_50- GHz-7_20-GTs-Intel-QPI |
| 19:43 | < Syka> | this one |
| 19:43 | < Syka> | and I just ordered another server with 2 of these in it as well |
| 19:44 | < iospace> | i forgot how much of an AMD hardon my friend has |
| 19:47 | < Syka> | slap them with a glowing bulldozer |
| 19:48 | < Azash> | If my processor was glowing I'd probably reach for the hazmat suit |
| 19:49 | < iospace> | oh no |
| 19:49 | < iospace> | we got an amd user! |
| 19:50 | < Azash> | Not me, unless you count the 6970 |
| 19:50 | < iospace> | as your video card? |
| 19:50 | < Azash> | Yeah |
| 19:52 | | * iospace shuns Azash |
| 19:53 | < Syka> | :P |
| 19:53 | | * Syka has her 660 Ti and 580 |
| 19:53 | < Syka> | the 660 is the better card, yet it's in the linux box... lol |
| 19:53 | | * AnnoDomini unleashes the raw power of his mighty Intel integrated graphics card. |
| 19:54 | < Syka> | funny story |
| 19:54 | < Azash> | iospace: Aww :( |
| 19:54 | < iospace> | Syka: and i have a 670 :D |
| 19:54 | < Syka> | my HP laptop with C2D-era integrated graphics under Linux ran Minecraft better than my friend's 590 in Windows |
| 19:55 | < Syka> | it was /hilarious/ |
| 19:55 | < Azash> | I'm probably going intel/nvidia whenever I end up upgrading this though.. |
| 19:55 | < Azash> | I think I've permanently lost faith for ati linux drivers |
| 19:55 | | * Syka bonks iospace with her 3770 |
| 19:56 | < Syka> | Azash: I lost faith in ATI linux drivers when I had to force overclock my 5770 |
| 19:56 | < Syka> | if I didn't, then the 2nd monitor would flicker |
| 19:56 | < Azash> | Nice |
| 19:56 | < Syka> | because the clocks would go so low that it couldnt display the 2nd properly, or some bullshit |
| 19:56 | < Azash> | I lost faith for them when I installed them according to instructions and X wouldn't start anymore |
| 19:56 | < Syka> | also, it crashed a lot |
| 19:57 | < Syka> | and was a pain in the butt to install |
| 19:57 | < iospace> | Syka: i'm running a 3570k |
| 19:57 | < Syka> | iospace: mine is 200 better :D |
| 19:57 | < iospace> | well mine has a K D< |
| 19:58 | < Syka> | mine has 24GB of delicious RAM hooked up to it c: |
| 20:00 | < Azash> | I had a 2600K but exchanged it to a brand new 2600 with my roommate so I could get vt-d |
| 20:01 | < iospace> | heh |
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| 20:06 | < Syka> | iospace: D: in a few months i'll lose my super internet |
| 20:07 | < iospace> | :< |
| 20:07 | < Syka> | iospace: so i'll have to find a consumer provider |
| 20:08 | < iospace> | :P |
| 20:08 | < iospace> | no more hipster net/ :P |
| 20:09 | < Syka> | its not hipster net |
| 20:09 | <@Tamber> | ...wouldn't hipsterNet be dialup, or something? Because that's retro now. |
| 20:09 | < Syka> | it's telstra business with a Cisco 887 :< |
| 20:09 | < Syka> | which i'll also lose |
| 20:10 | < Azash> | I weep for the future generations that will not know the joys of the dialup noise |
| 20:10 | <@Tamber> | I don't. |
| 20:10 | < Syka> | tamber how long until the original iphone is retro |
| 20:11 | <@Tamber> | Who cares? |
| 20:11 | <@Tamber> | :) |
| 20:11 | < Syka> | well if it will be, i need to stock up |
| 20:11 | < ErikMesoy> | Do dee, do dee, do do nyahhhhh. Beep beep beep beep murrr, beeeeeeeeeeeeep |
| 20:11 | < Syka> | a poyential lucrative market |
| 20:11 | | * Tamber replaces Azash's net connection with a 2400baud modem, for the noises. |
| 20:11 | < Syka> | peddling outdated shit to hipsters |
| 20:11 | < ErikMesoy> | dialup tone stuck in my head from my youth |
| 20:11 | <@Tamber> | Alternatively, acoustic coupler. |
| 20:12 | <@Tamber> | Which, let me just say, would make a nifty name for a band. |
| 20:12 | < iospace> | you're an acoustic coupler D< |
| 20:12 | < Azash> | I imagine a 2400 baud modem would be quite jarring being used to 100/10 broadband |
| 20:12 | <@Tamber> | Most likely. |
| 20:13 | < Azash> | I like the nostalgia but I'm too used to this to want to go back :P |
| 20:13 | < iospace> | Azash: try using a 115200 baud console then going down to 1200 |
| 20:13 | < Syka> | my vps has 1gbps or something |
| 20:13 | <~Vornicus> | I remember when 2400 baud was enough to fill a C64 screen with words in a smidge over 3 seconds. |
| 20:13 | < ErikMesoy> | so basically I'd have to be strict about the text-only browsing? |
| 20:14 | < Syka> | then i run my home net |
| 20:14 | < Syka> | yay 10Mbps |
| 20:14 | <~Vornicus> | And I said "man that's fast" |
| 20:14 | < iospace> | Vornicus: what was the size of the screen in terms of character? |
| 20:14 | < Syka> | ;v; |
| 20:14 | <~Vornicus> | 40x25, 1000 characters. |
| 20:14 | < Azash> | iospace: I've never actually messed around with that |
| 20:15 | < iospace> | Vornicus: 80x25, 1200 baud |
| 20:15 | < iospace> | 12 seconds, and then i have to navigate through a set up utility |
| 20:15 | < Syka> | whats fun is SSH over 2G |
| 20:15 | <@Tamber> | Our first net connection was via 56k winmodem, with the connection shared to the rest of the network; I do not miss it one bit. |
| 20:15 | < Syka> | 3.5 sec lag |
| 20:16 | < Syka> | i did a speedtest |
| 20:16 | < iospace> | Tamber: our first true internet connection was over that |
| 20:16 | < iospace> | well |
| 20:16 | < Syka> | -0.00Mbps |
| 20:16 | <@Tamber> | <<"It was a simpler, better time back then!" "Face it, you forgot how shit it was.">> |
| 20:16 | < iospace> | in terms of using a browser and such |
| 20:16 | < iospace> | my dad did dial into his work a lot though |
| 20:16 | < Syka> | it was so slow, speedtest.net /had a negative/ |
| 20:16 | < iospace> | then we couldn't use the phone XD |
| 20:17 | < iospace> | Syka: were you using an HTC1? :V |
| 20:17 | < iospace> | :VVVVVVVV |
| 20:17 | <@Tamber> | I have used BBSs, but that was long after most of them were dead. |
| 20:17 | <@Tamber> | And the rest were, at best, looking very sick. |
| 20:17 | < Syka> | no i was using a htc desire |
| 20:17 | <&ToxicFrog> | US Robotics serial modems 4 lyfe~ |
| 20:17 | < Syka> | and i was like Telstra why |
| 20:17 | | * ToxicFrog still has the 56k around here somewhere. Don't know what happened to the earlier ones. |
| 20:17 | < froztbyte> | <Syka> whats fun is SSH over 2G |
| 20:17 | < froztbyte> | mosh. |
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| 20:18 | < Syka> | ? |
| 20:18 | < froztbyte> | http://mosh.mit.edu/ |
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| 20:19 | < froztbyte> | Tamber: ++ on that quote |
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| 20:20 | < iospace> | ToxicFrog: Schrodinger, my 03 desktop, had 56k |
| 20:20 | < Syka> | oh hey that's pretty cool |
| 20:20 | < iospace> | well, in addition to 10/100 Mbps NIC |
| 20:20 | <&ToxicFrog> | Man |
| 20:20 | <&ToxicFrog> | By '03 was on campus and home had DSL |
| 20:20 | < Syka> | and the android is based on irssi connectbot :o |
| 20:20 | < iospace> | actually, NIC Card is proper |
| 20:20 | <&ToxicFrog> | *I was |
| 20:20 | <@Tamber> | froztbyte, the best bit is that, with modern technology, you can get more shittiness, faster! =D |
| 20:20 | < iospace> | Network Interface Controller Card :V |
| 20:21 | <@Tamber> | FCVO "best bit" |
| 20:21 | < Syka> | blah won't work if you have it installed |
| 20:23 | < Azash> | Has anyone here run a Windows thin client setup? |
| 20:23 | <~Vornicus> | I didn't have the 2400 modem at home - I got a 14.4 for my mac and got onto compuserve |
| 20:24 | < iospace> | Azash: no |
| 20:24 | < iospace> | but i have installed Windows 7 Embedded a few times |
| 20:24 | < Azash> | Oh well~ |
| 20:24 | < iospace> | well |
| 20:24 | <~Vornicus> | I remember then how rinkydink I found the modem software to be compared to the slick stuff I was used to on the same computer |
| 20:24 | < iospace> | Windows Thin Client is a type of Win7 Embedded |
| 20:24 | < iospace> | but I haven't installed that part |
| 20:25 | < Azash> | Decapitalized thin client |
| 20:25 | < Azash> | But I guess I've misunderstood the definition of it, so nevermind. :P |
| 20:27 | < Syka> | azash yes I have |
| 20:27 | < Syka> | kind of |
| 20:28 | < Syka> | XenDesktop based |
| 20:28 | < Syka> | scrapped it because XenDesktop is kinda awful |
| 20:30 | < Azash> | Well.. Like I said, I might have misused the term |
| 20:31 | < Azash> | I have a rack cabinet here that I'm going to start filling when I get some money in January, and I'm wondering if I can set up a server in it and remotely access Windows from it in a viable way |
| 20:31 | < Syka> | depends if you like lag |
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| 20:33 | < Azash> | Mm, that's the root of my question, whether them being in the same room would help in any way |
| 20:33 | < Azash> | But I guess not |
| 20:34 | < Syka> | you don't get very good 3D |
| 20:34 | < Azash> | Due to rapid redrawing? |
| 20:37 | < Syka> | due to windows being ass |
| 20:37 | < Syka> | you can get decent 3D with RemoteFX, apparently |
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| 20:38 | < Syka> | but that needs windows on the client |
| 20:39 | < Azash> | Hm.. Well, thanks |
| 20:39 | < Syka> | so you might as well not bother |
| 20:40 | < Azash> | Aye, looks that way |
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| 20:41 | < iospace> | so Syka, i herd you like shelves :V |
| 20:42 | < Azash> | I suppose I'll just draw a ridiculously long HDMI cable for when I want to game |
| 20:42 | | * Syka bonks iospace with shelves |
| 20:50 | | Kindamoody is now known as Kindamoody[zZz] |
| 20:54 | < iospace> | i saw that as "books" :P |
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| 21:30 | < froztbyte> | Syka: the way we normally do that is just with RDP |
| 21:30 | < froztbyte> | I guess it depends on what you want |
| 21:31 | < froztbyte> | ah, you want the full "desktop is in the other room" thing? |
| 21:32 | < Azash> | Aye |
| 21:32 | < Azash> | I'll probably just end up running Xen or KVM on my desktop |
| --- Log closed Sat Oct 13 22:38:59 2012 |
| --- Log opened Sat Oct 13 22:43:17 2012 |
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| --- Log closed Sun Oct 14 00:00:11 2012 |