| --- Log opened Mon Jul 23 00:00:47 2012 |
| 00:39 | | * Vornicus wanders the world looking at IRC bot frameworks |
| 00:42 | <~Vornicus> | Twisted.words: this doesn't look like IRC |
| 00:44 | | Vasi is now known as rms |
| 00:50 | <~Vornicus> | gnah. do any of these not suck. |
| 00:56 | < Rhamphoryncus> | no |
| 00:57 | <~Vornicus> | righto. |
| 02:06 | | Kindamoody[zZz] is now known as Kindamoody |
| 02:22 | | * McMartin sets about porting his Hex Inverter core to Java for Android purposes. |
| 02:22 | | Attilla [Obsolete@Nightstar-71866fd9.as43234.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 121 seconds] |
| 02:23 | <&McMartin> | Kind of sad that this is actually the path of least resistance - I'd used C++ to prototype the algorithms with, and my C++ idioms are heavily Java-influenced (no MI, heavy use of STL collections) so the port is easy. |
| 02:25 | <&McMartin> | Though there is always the obnoxious boilerplate. =( |
| 02:25 | <&McMartin> | C++ is more casual about letting you skip the boring parts. |
| 02:47 | <&McMartin> | 20 minutes with Java and I'm already remembering why I'm sick of it~ |
| 03:04 | | SmithKurosaki [smith@Nightstar-ad56e792.home1.cgocable.net] has joined #code |
| 03:05 | < rms> | Is it the impossible to debug "can't find class" errors? |
| 03:10 | <&McMartin> | No, it's the endles manual boilerplate bullshit that C++ doesn't need to work acceptably and that all the classier languages totally automate by being smug and immutable. |
| 03:12 | | cpux [cpux@Nightstar-c5874a39.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [[NS] Quit: Well, most things get better when I kick them!] |
| 03:27 | <~Vornicus> | What kind of manual boilerplate bullshit are we talking here? |
| 03:31 | <&McMartin> | .equals and .hashCode |
| 03:31 | <&McMartin> | accessors |
| 03:31 | <~Vornicus> | oh, .equals |
| 03:32 | <&McMartin> | comparators if you want them to fully participate in collections (executive summary: I don't!) |
| 03:33 | <&McMartin> | On the plus side, I almost have my AI thunderdome completely ported. |
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| 07:12 | | You're now known as TheWatcher |
| 07:31 | < froztbyte> | Vornicus: https://launchpad.net/eridanus |
| 07:32 | < froztbyte> | its followup is being written in haskell |
| 07:36 | | Vash [Vash@Nightstar-e8057de2.wlfrct.sbcglobal.net] has quit [[NS] Quit: I lovecraft Vorn!] |
| 07:39 | <~Vornicus> | froztbyte: wootnauts |
| 07:41 | | himi [fow035@D741F1.243F35.CADC30.81D435] has quit [Ping timeout: 121 seconds] |
| 07:41 | < froztbyte> | Vornicus: the devs are also pretty clued up, and should respond at somewhatever time |
| 07:42 | < froztbyte> | you want to contact them directly, hop onto shadowfire |
| 07:42 | < froztbyte> | and yeah, t.w is more like the bones for some sort of chat implementation, than a framework itself |
| 07:43 | < froztbyte> | you still get to design the skeleton and muscular system |
| 07:47 | <~Vornicus> | Nice. |
| 07:47 | | * Vornicus will have to build his model first |
| 08:13 | | You're now known as TheWatcher[afk] |
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| 09:15 | | Attilla [Obsolete@Nightstar-71866fd9.as43234.net] has joined #code |
| 09:48 | <&jerith> | Oh, is Vorn writing a Twisted-based ircbot? |
| 09:51 | <&jerith> | Here's a rather more bare-bones example. All it does is translate messages to vumi's internal message format and back: https://github.com/praekelt/vumi/blob/develop/vumi/transports/irc/irc.py |
| 09:52 | <&jerith> | Vornicus: If you need any help with this stuff, feel free to ping me. :-) |
| 10:03 | | You're now known as TheWatcher |
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| 10:14 | | mode/#code [+o himi] by ChanServ |
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| 10:39 | < froztbyte> | jerith: he was searching, then I pointed him at eridanus |
| 10:39 | < froztbyte> | vumi might make more sense though |
| 10:39 | < froztbyte> | it's a bit lighter too |
| 10:39 | | * froztbyte didn't really think of it as a bot yet |
| 10:39 | <&jerith> | Vumi's pretty heavyweight, actually. |
| 10:40 | < froztbyte> | well, I'm talking install procedure here |
| 10:40 | < froztbyte> | eridanus /is/ a bit unfriendly to install still |
| 10:40 | <&jerith> | It is. |
| 10:40 | < froztbyte> | vumi's far easier to get going |
| 10:40 | <&jerith> | Vumi needs three external deps before starting, though. |
| 10:41 | < froztbyte> | but yeah, that's a solvable problem when I get more RAM in my home server |
| 10:41 | <&jerith> | I wouldn't recommend it just for ircbots. |
| 10:45 | | Kindamoody is now known as Kindamoody|out |
| 10:47 | < Reiver> | man, I keep forgetting to check out that irc client :/ |
| 10:48 | <@TheWatcher> | Which? |
| 10:50 | | You're now known as TheWatcher[d00m] |
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| 11:03 | < Reiver> | TheWatcher: Quassel, IIRC |
| 11:03 | < Reiver> | Cient/server cache thingy, without the pain and agony of learning irssi :P |
| 11:04 | <@TheWatcher[d00m]> | Bah |
| 11:05 | <@TheWatcher[d00m]> | Well, okay, maybe the learning curve is a leeetle steep |
| 11:06 | < Reiver> | 'Oh god, why are my eyes full of spiders giving birth to baby spiders that are nesting in my brain' can, in some circles, be considered 'steep', yes. |
| 11:10 | < sshine> | is that irssi? |
| 11:13 | < Reiver> | The reference? Indeed. |
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| 11:50 | < sshine> | I'm juggling with some programming paradigm terminology here |
| 11:52 | < sshine> | imperative, declarative, applicative, functional, value-oriented, state-oriented, |
| 11:53 | < sshine> | declarative is supposed to be a superset of functional and logical |
| 11:53 | < sshine> | imperative is supposed to be synonymous to state-oriented |
| 11:53 | < sshine> | applicative is supposed to be synonymous with functional, I think. |
| 11:55 | < sshine> | but among my professors, the terminology expert (in Danish, but still) puts applicative on the same taxonomic level as imperative... |
| 11:55 | < sshine> | maybe this is because you in logic programming apply predicates rather than functions, and so application is a more general term. |
| 11:56 | < sshine> | the reason I wonder about all of this is because I'm writing a template for Wikipedia that summarizes these, and I'd like to use the terms that are best suitable and not the most popular. e.g. saying functional is the primary alternative to imperative is neglecting a bigger hierarchy of paradigms. |
| 11:57 | < sshine> | so: would you say that applicative or declarative best describes the main alternative to imperative programming? |
| 11:59 | < sshine> | and is "logical" something you can call a language like Prolog? I mean, "functional" means "it extensively uses functions" and not "it works", so "logical" could mean "it extensively uses formal logic" and not "it is (tauto)logical" |
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| 12:10 | <@TheWatcher> | So, I have just learnt something midly mind-boggling. |
| 12:11 | <@TheWatcher> | Apparently, in India, it is the norm for students taking CS degrees to do no practical work whatsoever |
| 12:11 | <&jerith> | Um. |
| 12:11 | <&jerith> | That would explain some stuff, though. |
| 12:12 | <@TheWatcher> | They learn to program from books, are examined on that knoweldge, but apparently never actually /use/ the languages involved. Which just breaks my brain, frankly. |
| 12:14 | <@TheWatcher> | It certainly exaplins why the indian postgrads we get are so overwhelmed in the first 6 weeks or so - because our taught postgrad programmes are very programming heavy |
| 12:14 | <&jerith> | Programming is a craft. It requires lots of practice to get right. |
| 12:15 | <@TheWatcher> | Indeed |
| 12:15 | <&jerith> | I've been practicing for close to a quarter of a century, and I don't yet consider myself a master. |
| 12:16 | <&jerith> | (The first decade of that doesn't /really/ count. I was mucking about in BASIC.) |
| 12:17 | < RichyB> | jerith, arguably it does and pity the poor people who haven't had the 10 years of mucking around in BASIC to build up instincts. |
| 12:19 | | You're now known as TheWatcher[d00m] |
| 12:20 | <@TheWatcher[d00m]> | And now, to go instruct said students on the art of "looking at the error log in Eclipse" |
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| 16:44 | < Tarinaky> | "Alan M. Turing thought about criteria to settle the question of whether Machines Can Think, a question of which we now know that it is about as relevant as the question of whether Submarines Can Swim." |
| 16:48 | < sshine> | Tarinaky, Dijkstra! |
| 16:49 | < sshine> | (I only knew that because I'm translating CS articles on the Danish Wikipedia.) |
| 16:49 | < Tarinaky> | Heh. |
| 16:49 | < Tarinaky> | Turned up in my Facebook feed. |
| 16:49 | < sshine> | so we accept that they can think, but do they dream of electric sheep? |
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| 22:43 | < Moltare> | Evening, gents |
| 22:43 | <&McMartin> | GENTLEMAN. |
| 22:43 | < Moltare> | Over in the corner, fast asleep. |
| 22:44 | < Moltare> | Mind if I ask about a Java woe I'm having? |
| 22:44 | <&McMartin> | Go for it. |
| 22:46 | | gnolam [lenin@Nightstar-202a5047.priv.bahnhof.se] has joined #code |
| 22:46 | < Moltare> | I've got a String variable called timeStamp. It consists entirely of a figure of approximately 1.3x10^12 |
| 22:47 | <&McMartin> | So it's a string containing a large number. |
| 22:47 | <&McMartin> | OK. |
| 22:47 | < Moltare> | I'm trying to turn this into a long, using Long.valueOf(text) to make a Long and then returning l.longValue() |
| 22:47 | < Moltare> | A certain amount of investigation suggests this is not unreasonable |
| 22:47 | < Moltare> | But when I do so I get a numberformatexception |
| 22:48 | <&McMartin> | Hmmm. |
| 22:48 | < Moltare> | Outputting just the string suggests it's what I think it is |
| 22:48 | <&McMartin> | Hmm. |
| 22:48 | < Moltare> | The value quoted in the exception is the same |
| 22:48 | <&McMartin> | Is it choking on whitespace? |
| 22:48 | <&McMartin> | Can you quote the value? |
| 22:49 | <&McMartin> | Because this does work: |
| 22:49 | <&McMartin> | user=> (.longValue (Long/valueOf "17391823740123")) |
| 22:49 | <&McMartin> | 17391823740123 |
| 22:49 | < Moltare> | 1343079347576, last time |
| 22:49 | <&McMartin> | However! |
| 22:49 | <&McMartin> | user=> (.longValue (Long/valueOf "17391823740123 ")) |
| 22:49 | <&McMartin> | NumberFormatException For input string: "17391823740123 " java.lang.NumberFormatException.forInputString (NumberFormatException.java:65) |
| 22:50 | < Moltare> | I'm reasonably convinced there's no whitespace, but~ |
| 22:51 | < Moltare> | This value originally came off an NTP time server as a long. I cast it to a String and write it to an output file for later (time stamp of last session exit) |
| 22:51 | <&McMartin> | Hrm. |
| 22:51 | < Moltare> | I then load it back up next time from that file into the timeStamp variable as noted above |
| 22:51 | <&McMartin> | I'd do a dump of the string character by character to make sure there's no end-of-file-character BS or nulls or newlines or whatever. |
| 22:51 | < Moltare> | So if there's some dodgy character in there that I don't see in LogCat or in the exception message |
| 22:51 | <&McMartin> | =^_^= |
| 22:52 | < Moltare> | Fair enough, that'll be my next step~ |
| 22:52 | < ToxicFrog> | Depending on how you're reading it from the file I could easily see a newline sneaking in there, and then the exception message reporter conveniently stripping that to keep things readable. |
| 22:52 | < ToxicFrog> | So, yeah, what McM said. |
| 22:53 | <&McMartin> | But yeah, some brief experimentation says your core idea here is sound. |
| 22:53 | <&McMartin> | (One thing Clojure is pretty great for is as a JVM REPL) |
| 22:54 | < sshine> | right |
| 22:54 | < sshine> | I enjoyed Jython for that as well. |
| 22:58 | < Moltare> | You're quite right, there's something nasty on the end of that String |
| 23:01 | < Moltare> | Looks like a newline, charas. Does trim() clean those as well as whitespace? |
| 23:02 | | * Moltare will find out shortly~ |
| 23:03 | < Moltare> | Yep :) and now it doesn't die. Thanks, lads |
| 23:07 | <&McMartin> | No worries |
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| 23:40 | < Moltare> | And of course the thing works flawlessly on the IDE emulator, and dies horribly on my state of the art Galaxy S3 ?? |
| 23:40 | <@TheWatcher> | Naturally |
| 23:40 | < ToxicFrog> | :embeddedsystems: |
| 23:40 | <&McMartin> | Is that any different from :scigonk:? |
| 23:41 | < ToxicFrog> | There's more pratfalls and dodgy documentation~ |
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| 23:42 | < Moltare> | It works some of the time ?? it's just as soon as the NTP server du jour takes more than the merest gnat's crotchet to respond, the real device decides the app's frozen |
| 23:42 | < Moltare> | Despite that request being in its own worker thread |
| 23:42 | < ToxicFrog> | Oh god |
| 23:43 | <&McMartin> | Yarghborgle |
| 23:43 | | * ToxicFrog has Blackberry flashbacks |
| 23:45 | < ToxicFrog> | In which blocking the main thread for any reason blocks the entire app, which is bad if - for example - you have a background thread that is required to maintain a 50ms heartbeat to a robot that goes insane if it thinks it's lost connection to the controller. |
| 23:45 | < Moltare> | Yep, Android apps die the moment they think the main thread's hung |
| 23:46 | <&McMartin> | Elsenet today someone mentioned the article "Android Threading: AND YET YOU DECIDED TO DO IT ANYWAY" |
| 23:47 | < Moltare> | ?\O_o/? |
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| --- Log closed Tue Jul 24 00:00:02 2012 |