| --- Log opened Sat Jul 21 00:00:09 2012 |
| --- Log closed Sat Jul 21 00:18:02 2012 |
| --- Log opened Sat Jul 21 00:20:26 2012 |
| 00:20 | | TheWatcher [chris@Nightstar-3762b576.co.uk] has joined #code |
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| 01:06 | < sshine> | "The synthesis of numerical calculation, predetermined operation and output, along with a way to organize and input instructions in a manner relatively easy for humans to conceive and produce, led to the modern development of computer programming." |
| 01:06 | < sshine> | (on Babbage's Analytical Engine) |
| 01:06 | < sshine> | I need to understand: does the author mean that the return value of running a program is predetermined? |
| 01:07 | < sshine> | I know it was used to calculate already known number series, so perhaps this is what is meant by predetermined. otherwise, maybe what the author means is that the operation is predetermined, and the repetitional comma is just slightly misplaced. |
| 01:07 | < sshine> | what are people's opinion? |
| 01:08 | < sshine> | (I'm translating a Wikipedia article.) |
| 01:11 | <&McMartin> | Predetermined operation here means "it has been programmed" and the concept of self-modifying code had not yet been envisioned. |
| 01:12 | <&McMartin> | Stored-program computers were a later innovation (specifically, this is what makes something a 'von Neumann' machine.) |
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| 12:56 | < Nemu> | Hmm. This is silly. I'm flipping through a forum thread about a Maki decompier written in Perl. It's surprising how many people turn into whiny tits when there's the risk of their super-secret codes being seen. |
| 12:56 | < Nemu> | Like, maki is used to make winamp skins. Get over yourself, the world doesn't actually care |
| 13:07 | < rms> | Peeps are tarded |
| 13:08 | < rms> | There was a similar issue with a Starcraft map editor, the author planned allow it to break map edit protection. |
| 13:08 | < rms> | (Which only worked because for some really fucked up reason, Starcraft maps store the data twice. Once for StarEdit then again for the game itself. Protected maps just nuked the StarEdit data.) |
| 13:11 | < rms> | End result: that feature was only enabled for a single RC |
| 13:17 | < sshine> | so that's why some maps weren't editable. |
| 13:27 | < rms> | Yup |
| 13:37 | | iospacedout is now known as iospace |
| 13:51 | < ToxicFrog> | Yeah, we get people in #lua fairly often asking how to hide their code |
| 13:52 | <@Tamber> | "Never give it to anyone. Ever."? |
| 13:54 | < ToxicFrog> | Pretty much |
| 14:18 | < Nemu> | Well, basically, the argument degenerated into "My code is secure through obscurity, and you're breaking that security" |
| 14:19 | < Nemu> | There was no attempt towards obfuscation |
| 14:19 | <@Tamber> | ...ahehehehe |
| 14:21 | <@Tamber> | I wonder how well they'd take finding out that it's impossible to let someone run their code without providing some way of pulling it apart? :p |
| 14:25 | < Nemu> | That's the nature of pretty much anything, though. Can't play music without there being a certain insecure analog channel. |
| 14:25 | < Nemu> | I always thought people knew this |
| 14:25 | < Nemu> | Turns out, no |
| 14:25 | <@Tamber> | So did I, because it's so blindingly obviously. But, sadly not. |
| 14:26 | <@Tamber> | Or perhaps they know it, but think that -- if they will it enough -- it won't apply to them? |
| 14:27 | < Nemu> | If they make a big enough stink about it, or, in the music example, if they sue the perpetrator (victim?) into submission |
| 14:27 | < Nemu> | There's precedent, though, even long before digital anything came along |
| 14:28 | < Nemu> | Ever notice that recipes are free, but sewing designs aren't? |
| 14:28 | < Nemu> | Why's that? I don't know. I can buy a shirt or a pair of pants, rip the seams, and trace the shape of the fabric. |
| 14:29 | < Nemu> | If I were then to distribute my recreated pattern, it would be illegal |
| 14:29 | < Nemu> | Although, no one gives a shit about clothes, so, like, who cares. |
| 14:29 | < Nemu> | But, still. People really do think that if they create something, they have the right to control it into perpetuity |
| 14:29 | < Nemu> | Refer to the patent system |
| 14:32 | < Nemu> | Essentially, the only true protection is encryption. In the case of data, that's easy. In the case of concepts or objects, encryption takes the form of complexity. |
| 14:35 | < Nemu> | Ah. I should add, this isn't even perpetual protection. Data encryption exists because we have asymmetric algorithms, where the inverse operation is considerably harder than the initial operation. It's not security. It's just being one or two steps ahead in the arms race |
| 14:36 | <@Tamber> | "All security will fail, given enough time." |
| 14:36 | <@Tamber> | Or a heavy enough length of hose. |
| 14:42 | < Nemu> | hose? |
| 14:44 | < ToxicFrog> | Nemu: from "rubber hose cryptography", ie, you beat the person until they give you the passphrase. |
| 14:44 | < Nemu> | Hah, that's clever |
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| 16:40 | < Tarinaky> | "Common Law Feature" "A bug in the application that has existed so long that it is now part of the expected functionality, and user support is required to actually fix it." |
| 16:41 | < Nemu> | Aren't there a few of those in Java? |
| 16:41 | < Nemu> | There's something with the stack implementation, if I remember right |
| 16:41 | < Nemu> | Stack, or heap |
| 16:43 | < Tarinaky> | The Higgs Bug needs a new name. |
| 16:43 | < Tarinaky> | (A bug that is theoretically believed to exist but cannot be reproduced by a developer) |
| 16:49 | < ToxicFrog> | Tarinaky: that sounds very close to the Heisenbug. |
| 17:00 | < Tarinaky> | A heisenbug is a bug that changes when observed :p |
| 17:01 | < Tarinaky> | Which is, I think, slightly different. |
| 17:02 | < Tarinaky> | Also: Fuck Games for Windows Live in the arse with a rusty pole. I wanted to play a video game over an hour ago. |
| 17:05 | | Derakon[AFK] is now known as Derakon |
| 17:05 | < Nemu> | Yeah. Playing video games has become increasingly difficult, over the years |
| 17:06 | < Nemu> | My biggest peave? Buying a physical copy of a game to avoid long downloads, installing it, and realizing you have to sit through a double-digit GB update anyways |
| 17:06 | < Tarinaky> | "Can't connect to Live. Error code 0x80151a06" |
| 17:07 | < Nemu> | This is the problem I have with games that require some kind of authentication to play. What happens when the server goes down for good? |
| 17:08 | < Nemu> | If it's a multiplayer game, that's okay. The server shouldn't, in theory, get pulled when there's still a strong user-base. If it's single-player though, it's a different story. |
| 17:08 | < Tarinaky> | The server hasn't gone down though. |
| 17:09 | < Nemu> | I'm just talking about what happens when it does happen, though |
| 17:09 | < Nemu> | No service will be offered forever. |
| 17:16 | < Tarinaky> | Steam will live forever :p |
| 17:18 | < ToxicFrog> | When the server goes down, you install the crack that's existed since a week after the game was released and keep playing. |
| 17:18 | < ToxicFrog> | Also, I have to disagree on "playing video games has become increasingly difficult". |
| 17:20 | < Tarinaky> | I think the difficulty of playing games is a parabola. |
| 17:20 | < Tarinaky> | On DOS and earlier it was harder. |
| 17:20 | < Tarinaky> | Then during the Win98 years it was easy. |
| 17:20 | < Tarinaky> | Then it's gotten harder again. |
| 17:20 | < ShellNinja> | Todays's game are easy. Except the fringe one like DF and EU. |
| 17:21 | < ShellNinja> | +s |
| 17:21 | < ToxicFrog> | Go to the store. Find out that they don't have a copy. Go to the other store. Buy the game. Unwrap six layers of packing material. Insert disc 1. Insert disc 2. Insert disc 3. Insert disc 1. Insert disc 4. Download patch 1.0-RETAIL-EN to 1.1-EN, 1.1-EN to 1.2-EN, 1.2-EN to 1.2.1-EN, 1.2.1-EN to 1.3-EN, 1.3-EN to 1.4-EN, and 1.4-EN to 1.4.2-EN. Start installing patches. Find out that you actually needed the -US version, not the -EN ver |
| 17:21 | < ToxicFrog> | sion. Re-download all of the patches. Install them. Find out that one of them installed an updated version of the copy protection that doesn't support your CD drive. Spend an hour looking for a crack that supports 1.4.2-US. Give up, uninstall, reinstall, patch to 1.4.0, install crack, play. |
| 17:21 | < ToxicFrog> | Fuck. |
| 17:21 | < ToxicFrog> | That. |
| 17:21 | < ToxicFrog> | Noise. |
| 17:21 | < ToxicFrog> | Oh yeah, and the patches all want discs 2 and 3 to install. |
| 17:22 | < Tarinaky> | ShellNinja: We're talking about the difficulty of getting it to run. |
| 17:22 | < ShellNinja> | 1. Download pre-cracked version. 2. Play. |
| 17:22 | < ToxicFrog> | If you're on broadband, games are easier to play now than they ever were. |
| 17:22 | < Tarinaky> | ToxicFrog: Hang on hang on. |
| 17:22 | < ToxicFrog> | If you're not, you're fucked, but you've been fucked since patches first became large ten years ago. |
| 17:22 | < Tarinaky> | If you can download the patches off the internet you can order the games off amazon. |
| 17:23 | < Tarinaky> | It was also possible to just ignore the patches. |
| 17:23 | < ToxicFrog> | Yeah, but the patches generally fixed things that you might actually want to have fixed |
| 17:23 | < ToxicFrog> | And I'm not sure how ordering the games off of amazon improves matters |
| 17:23 | < ToxicFrog> | What I'm responding to here is <Nemu> Yeah. Playing video games has become increasingly difficult, over the years |
| 17:24 | < ToxicFrog> | Which is bullshit; even the most restrictive and broken modern DRM scheme I've used (GFWL) has given me less trouble than the typical hardcopy did ten years ago. |
| 17:25 | < Tarinaky> | Also, why does the start menu's 'recent items' have something I clicked on once by mistake... |
| 17:25 | < Tarinaky> | But not the thing I've clicked on 20+ fucking times :/ |
| 17:25 | < ToxicFrog> | There's still a few holdouts like MS and Ubisoft who seem to think that the goal of a publisher is to make games as hard as possible to play (unless you're a pirate), but even taking those into account, gaming has become a lot easier. |
| 17:26 | < Tarinaky> | Does anyone know how to check if my new DLC is registered with GFWL? |
| 17:26 | <~Vornicus> | Open it and find out? |
| 17:26 | < Tarinaky> | Open what? |
| 17:27 | < Tarinaky> | It hasn't asked for the serial for the DLC |
| 17:27 | <~Vornicus> | It might not need it. |
| 17:28 | < Tarinaky> | Right, well. I need to shower, get ready to go out and feed my brothers now |
| 17:28 | < Tarinaky> | So much for playing a game :/ |
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| 17:28 | < Tarinaky> | At least I could theoretically play it if I had time now. |
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| 17:32 | | * Vornicus finds himself in a position to build an IRC bot |
| 17:33 | < Nemu> | Do it, champ |
| 17:33 | < Nemu> | All the cool kids are building them |
| 17:33 | < ShellNinja> | Yes. |
| 17:34 | < Nemu> | You should make it do useless functions that only serve to clutter the room |
| 17:34 | < Tarinaky> | Doesn't seem to have added the DLC to the game. |
| 17:34 | < Tarinaky> | :/ |
| 17:35 | | Derakon is now known as Derakon[AFK] |
| 17:36 | <~Vornicus> | No, I have a specific purpose. |
| 17:42 | < ShellNinja> | Op wars? |
| 18:10 | | * Alek has not actually had trouble with GFWL... >_> |
| 18:11 | <@Alek> | half a dozen or so of my steam games also use GFWL. |
| 18:11 | <@Alek> | no problems. really. |
| 18:11 | <@Alek> | FO3. B:AA. Bioshock 2. a few others. |
| 18:15 | | Kindamoody|out is now known as Kindamoody |
| 18:23 | < io\gone> | GFWL? |
| 18:24 | | io\gone is now known as iospace |
| 18:25 | <@Alek> | Games for Windows Live |
| 18:25 | | Derakon[AFK] is now known as Derakon |
| 18:27 | < Nemu> | Oh no |
| 18:27 | < Nemu> | Do you know what is the worst thing in the world? |
| 18:27 | < Nemu> | When it's 2:30 in the morning, and you decide to go to bed. So, you go outside to get your futon and covers, where they've been drying on the line. |
| 18:28 | < Nemu> | You make your bed, turn off the light, and from somewhere very near you, you hear the cricket that snuck into your house inside the folds of your sheets |
| 18:28 | < Nemu> | I can't find the fucker |
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| 18:48 | <~Vornicus> | ShellNinja: actually, IRC Power Grid |
| 18:48 | <~Vornicus> | Not quite as straightforward as Puerto Rico, but it's close |
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| 19:45 | | You're now known as TheWatcher |
| --- Log closed Sat Jul 21 20:03:51 2012 |
| --- Log opened Sat Jul 21 20:04:00 2012 |
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| 20:20 | < ToxicFrog> | Alek: I have yet to have a single game with GFWL that I haven't had problems with. |
| 21:28 | <@Alek> | that sucks. :/ |
| 21:35 | < ToxicFrog> | Sometimes the problems are minor (achievement progress popups can't be disabled, so every time I headshot someone it goes BING!) |
| 21:35 | < ToxicFrog> | Sometimes they are major (all of my save files are erased) |
| 21:36 | < ToxicFrog> | Sometimes they are easy to fix, but figuring out how to fix them takes forever. (GFWL crashes on startup trying to update. Solution: update outside the game, then run it. Can't log in to GFWL. Solution: choose a shorter password, because the website will let you set a password that the in-game client won't let you type in.) |
| 21:36 | < ToxicFrog> | But I have never had a game using GFWL go completely smoothly. |
| 21:37 | | Vash [Vash@Nightstar-e8057de2.wlfrct.sbcglobal.net] has quit [[NS] Quit: I lovecraft Vorn!] |
| 21:45 | <&McMartin> | GFWL games never let me log in but this also never stops me from playing the game, so. |
| 21:45 | <&McMartin> | I guess Steamworks does something. |
| 21:49 | <@Alek> | mmm yes. |
| 21:50 | <@Alek> | I have had actually a small glitch. |
| 21:50 | < ToxicFrog> | McMartin: if you have an "offline profile" I'm pretty sure that lets you play, it just doesn't do achievements or anything |
| 21:51 | < ToxicFrog> | Regrettably not all games permit offline profiles |
| 21:51 | <@Alek> | if I start a new/continue game in the menu before GFWL finishes loading (FO3 can do this), it gets a separate save than with GFWL. |
| 21:51 | <@Alek> | so yeah. |
| 21:52 | < ToxicFrog> | Yeah, there's basically three possible states for a GFWL game, "no profile", "offline profile", and "online profile", all of which behave differently and not all of which may be available depending on the game. |
| 21:53 | < rms> | So they set out to immitate Steam and failed horribly? |
| 21:53 | | Derakon is now known as Derakon[AFK] |
| 21:54 | < ToxicFrog> | rms: as far as I can tell the goal is actually to port XBox Live to windows as lazily as possible |
| 21:58 | < rms> | Heh |
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| 22:52 | | * McMartin flails at the jarstrippers out there |
| 22:52 | <&McMartin> | Clearly going to need to write my own |
| 22:52 | <&McMartin> | The stuff available either doesn't do what I want or doesn't work on classfiles compiled by JDk 1.2 or later |
| 22:55 | < rms> | lol |
| 23:11 | < ToxicFrog> | McMartin: although it's billed as a jar obfuscator, I have heard ProGuard recommended for this purpose |
| 23:12 | < ToxicFrog> | The obfuscation features are optional, it does unnecessary class stripping, and it supports at least Java 6 |
| 23:12 | <&McMartin> | It looks dangerously aggressive. |
| 23:12 | <&McMartin> | Clojure, I have a sinking suspicion, makes heavy use of reflection. |
| 23:13 | <&McMartin> | Oh hey, dexguard. |
| 23:13 | < ToxicFrog> | It tries to avoid reflection whenever it can for performance reasons |
| 23:13 | <&McMartin> | Yeah, I'm hoping that the reader can be wholly elided |
| 23:13 | < ToxicFrog> | But, eg, in the absence of type hints, it often needs to |
| 23:13 | <&McMartin> | But I bet the reader, at least, can't. |
| 23:13 | <&McMartin> | Only in interop land, but yeah |
| 23:13 | < ToxicFrog> | I think the minimum requirement to omit the reader is to :gen-class everything |
| 23:14 | < ToxicFrog> | But I could be wrong |
| 23:14 | < ToxicFrog> | This is not something I have actually attempted |
| 23:14 | <&McMartin> | IIRC, building an uberjar does AOT-compile everything. |
| 23:14 | <&McMartin> | But it also includes The Entire Clojure Standard Library, which seems a little excessive. |
| 23:15 | <&McMartin> | (If all reflective calls are part of Java interop, I don't have to care because it's only Clojure *itself* I want to minimize.) |
| 23:26 | | * McMartin tries out ProGuard |
| 23:28 | <&McMartin> | OK, default settings break the shit out of it |
| 23:30 | <&McMartin> | Yeah, OK, Clojure's libraries resist simple tracing. |
| 23:37 | < ToxicFrog> | :/ |
| 23:38 | <&McMartin> | Maybe I can do some of this by hand... |
| 23:42 | | * McMartin force-deletes big chunks of the Clojure library. |
| 23:47 | <&McMartin> | Works, but doesn't actually save any significant space. |
| 23:47 | <&McMartin> | It looks like the pretty-printer is one of the largest parts. |
| 23:49 | <&McMartin> | Oh hey, some specific HOWTOs |
| 23:49 | <&McMartin> | Once more unto the breach |
| 23:55 | <&McMartin> | Take four... |
| 23:57 | <&McMartin> | Take five... |
| 23:59 | <&McMartin> | Nope. Out of ideas now. |
| 23:59 | <&McMartin> | Oh well. |
| --- Log closed Sun Jul 22 00:00:33 2012 |