| --- Log opened Wed Jul 18 00:00:38 2012 |
| 00:22 | | cpux [cpux@Nightstar-c5874a39.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #code |
| 00:33 | | io|gone is now known as iospace |
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| 00:40 | | Derakon[AFK] is now known as Derakon |
| 00:43 | | * McMartin hunts down everyone who was ever even tangentially related with Linux sound and beats them within an inch of their life. |
| 00:46 | | * ToxicFrog helps |
| 00:47 | <~Vornicus> | I really don't get how linux sound blows so much |
| 00:48 | <%iospace> | hehe |
| 00:48 | <@Tamber> | "Everything we have already sucks; this time we'll get it right!" and "We need feature ${X}, why are you guys being such assholes about it? Fine, we'll go make our own!" |
| 00:48 | <@Tamber> | :p |
| 00:49 | | * iospace hugs Tamber |
| 00:49 | | * Tamber huggles :) |
| 00:52 | < ToxicFrog> | Vornicus: I kind of suspect that we got it right at some point, and now the real problem is that you have apps written for like four or five mutually incompatible sound systems, most of which don't get it right, all trying to coexist |
| 00:52 | | * gnolam just Doesn't Get the incredible latency of modern sound systems. |
| 01:15 | <&McMartin> | ToxicFrog: No, here it is the fact that as far as I can tell, ALSA and Pulse are both involved and both *point to each other* as the default output device, yet sound somehow nevertheless comes out |
| 01:15 | <&McMartin> | Meanwhile, asking ALSA to enumerate its devices returns device ID strings that ALSA DOES NOT ACCEPT |
| 01:16 | <&McMartin> | gnolam: I blame (a) 10ms timeslices and (b) ESD |
| 01:29 | < Reiver> | ESD? |
| 01:30 | < ToxicFrog> | Enlightened Sound Daemon |
| 01:30 | < ToxicFrog> | Linux Audio Clusterfuck #...3? |
| 01:32 | < Reiver> | OK, so, uh |
| 01:33 | < Reiver> | If they've gotten it right at least once, why is there still such fragmentation? |
| 01:34 | <@Tamber> | NIH? Or "That was broken the one time I used it back in 98, so I remove it every time I can" |
| 01:34 | <@Tamber> | :p |
| 01:55 | < ToxicFrog> | Reiver: well, (a) that was at least partially facetious, (b) even if they have gotten it right it's not obvious which one is right (and there may be disagreement on this), and (c) there's still a lot of legacy software out there that no-one cares enough to update |
| 01:57 | | gnolam [lenin@Nightstar-0fcc80a0.tbcn.telia.com] has quit [[NS] Quit: Gone] |
| 01:58 | < rms> | Honestly, if the distro uses ALSA, I've never had issues. |
| 01:58 | < rms> | If the distro uses OSS I occasionally have issues |
| 01:59 | < rms> | If the distro uses Pulse I have stupid issues (like sound being delayed /20/ seconds) or it'll break horribly the moment I make the most minor change to completely onthoganal program. |
| 02:00 | < rms> | I have yet to convert a distro from Pulse back to ALSA. |
| 02:01 | <&McMartin> | OSS is horrendously broken, in that unless you layer something on top of it you cannot have two applications emitting sound at once. |
| 02:01 | < ToxicFrog> | I have never had an ALSA or OSS experience that worked reliably out of the box |
| 02:02 | < ToxicFrog> | I don't think I've ever gotten OSS working full stop, actually |
| 02:02 | <&McMartin> | Most major distros appear to use ALSA and Pulse simultaneously |
| 02:02 | < ToxicFrog> | Pulse generally works fine right up until something that uses OSS or ALSA tries to run and then it breaks half the time |
| 02:02 | <&McMartin> | Fedora uses Pulse as the primary and registers it as an ALSA device |
| 02:02 | <&McMartin> | AFAICT this Ubuntu system as ALSA and Pulse both installed and pointed *at each other*, which I do not begin to understand |
| 02:02 | < Namegduf> | Well, Pulse needs to use ALSA to talk to the kernel anyway for any hardware devices, IIRC |
| 02:03 | <&McMartin> | Yeah, but the ALSA default device can be "talk to the pulse server" |
| 02:03 | < rms> | Arch can be setup trivially to use ALSA alone, it works beautifully after 5 minutes of setup. |
| 02:03 | < Namegduf> | Yeah. |
| 02:03 | <&McMartin> | You aren't "supposed" to open hw:0 or whatever directly through ALSA. |
| 02:03 | < Namegduf> | Is Pulse pointed at the default device, specifically? |
| 02:03 | < Namegduf> | On your curious system/ |
| 02:04 | < rms> | <McMartin> AFAICT this Ubuntu system as ALSA and Pulse both installed and pointed *at each other*, which I do not begin to understand <-- Fedora is the same. It's part of the reason I can't get sound on this box ATM. |
| 02:04 | < rms> | $ alsamixer |
| 02:04 | < rms> | ALSA lib pulse.c:229:(pulse_connect) PulseAudio: Unable to connect: Connection refused |
| 02:05 | <&McMartin> | Namegduf: Looks like it's pointed directly at the hardware device and not alsa:default |
| 02:05 | < Namegduf> | Bingo. |
| 02:05 | < Namegduf> | That's what I'd expect. |
| 02:05 | <&McMartin> | That said, alsamixer and amixer work fine on my Fedora 17 box with no changes. |
| 02:06 | <&McMartin> | rms: Are you somehow blocking localhost from reaching the pulse server? |
| 02:06 | < rms> | I can't fucking /start/ the pulse server. |
| 02:06 | <&McMartin> | OK, so, like, you shouldn't have to |
| 02:06 | <&McMartin> | Because init is kinda supposed to |
| 02:06 | < rms> | There's no /etc/init.d script for it |
| 02:07 | < rms> | ... and it bitches loudly if I try to run it as root. |
| 02:07 | < rms> | ... and fails for any other user. |
| 02:07 | <&McMartin> | [mcmartin@iodine ~]$ ps ax | grep pulse 740 pts/4 S+ 0:00 grep --color=auto pulse |
| 02:07 | <&McMartin> | 20387 ? S<l 0:00 /usr/bin/pulseaudio --start --log-target=syslog |
| 02:07 | <&McMartin> | It's Just Sitting There, Man, I Dunno |
| 02:07 | < rms> | GNOME started it |
| 02:07 | < rms> | Except I don't use GNOME anymore |
| 02:08 | <@Tamber> | Are you trying to start it with "pulseaudio -D" manually now? |
| 02:08 | <&McMartin> | So your objection is "when I rip out the part of the distro responsible for this it no longer works"? |
| 02:08 | < rms> | When I switch to a WM that isn't shit I expect that my sound doesn't fail horribly. |
| 02:09 | <&McMartin> | GNOME isn't a WM. |
| 02:09 | < rms> | No, but it insists on running its own and runs other stuff that pisses my WM off |
| 02:09 | <&McMartin> | Also, I'm pretty sure that I have no logged-in sessions here that aren't over SSH. |
| 02:10 | <&McMartin> | I guess GDM could be doing it, but...? |
| 02:11 | < ToxicFrog> | Mine was also started by init (Mint here) |
| 02:11 | <&McMartin> | Anyway, Pulse is the only system I've *ever* gotten to handle cross-app mixing without breaking the entire universe. |
| 02:12 | <&McMartin> | And the way I got that to happen was by installing a stock distro less than four years old. |
| 02:13 | <&McMartin> | What ALSA thinks is going on appears to vary but the end result is a Pulse server that talks to ALSA hardware and OSS/"direct" ALSA being bounced through it. |
| --- Log closed Wed Jul 18 02:20:39 2012 |
| --- Log opened Wed Jul 18 03:23:07 2012 |
| 03:23 | | TheWatcher[zZzZ] [chris@Nightstar-3762b576.co.uk] has joined #code |
| 03:23 | | Irssi: #code: Total of 28 nicks [6 ops, 1 halfops, 0 voices, 21 normal] |
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| 03:25 | | * Vornicus pokes vaguely at js |
| 03:27 | <&McMartin> | Speaking of JS, if you haven't seen this yet: |
| 03:27 | <&McMartin> | http://harvesthq.github.com/chosen/ |
| 03:28 | <@Alek> | [21:27] <@Alek> helpdesk call: "We switched processors between two monitors, but they still have their old data." |
| 03:28 | <@Alek> | [21:27] <@Alek> they send a tech to investigate. |
| 03:28 | <@Alek> | [21:27] <@Alek> turns out, the caller's office uses AIOs. |
| 03:28 | <@Alek> | [21:27] <@Alek> with external power bricks. |
| 03:28 | <@Alek> | [21:28] <@Alek> 3 guesses as to what they did, and the first 2 don't count. |
| 03:28 | <@Tamber> | If the first one is "Swapped the power bricks", is it still wrong? :p |
| 03:29 | <&McMartin> | "switched processors"? |
| 03:29 | <&McMartin> | I'm getting a "hacking our webs" vibe from that first line |
| 03:30 | <@Alek> | nah, swapped bricks is it. XD |
| 03:33 | < rms> | AIOs? |
| 03:33 | | iospace is now known as TheSpace |
| 03:34 | <@Tamber> | "All in One" |
| 03:34 | | Derakon is now known as Therakon |
| 03:35 | | Vornicus is now known as TheVornicus |
| 03:36 | | Vash is now known as TheVash |
| 03:39 | <~TheVornicus> | hng. |
| 03:40 | <~TheVornicus> | Okay about chosen, things it seems to think are not, you know, de rigeur: all the browsers I've worked with let you start typing the name of an object in a dropdown box like that. |
| 03:41 | <~TheVornicus> | I don't /want/ disabled options to disappear, often: an option should be greyed out if the situation can be quickly changed to allow selection fo that option. |
| 03:45 | | Therakon is now known as Derakon |
| 03:47 | | TheSpace is now known as chibispace |
| 03:50 | | * McMartin finally gets his goddamned Linux sound utilities working. |
| 03:56 | | TheVornicus is now known as Vornicus |
| 04:08 | <@Alek> | hm. |
| 04:08 | <@Alek> | damn my memory. |
| 04:09 | <@Alek> | I want to find the pastie site I registered at last month, to put up another pastie. |
| 04:09 | <@Alek> | but I can't find its url. |
| 04:09 | <@Alek> | hint: it's not pastie.org, since that one doesn't have registration. apparently. |
| 04:10 | < rms> | gist? |
| 04:12 | <@Alek> | well, some weeks ago, I had a game rules idea. I posted those rules on one of those pastie sites, which site had a registration system so you could later find your pasties and etc. I now want to add another, but I can't find the site. D: |
| 04:13 | <@Alek> | I did paste a link to the pastie in here, if that helps. >_> |
| 04:13 | <@Alek> | some weeks ago. XD |
| 04:13 | < rms> | As Alek? |
| 04:14 | <&Derakon> | So look to your logs, then. |
| 04:14 | <&Derakon> | grep -E "Alek.*http" logfile |
| 04:18 | <@Alek> | yes. I'm looking at logs now. :/ |
| 04:18 | <@Alek> | no grep on this system, tho. |
| 04:21 | <@Alek> | found it. |
| 04:21 | <@Alek> | only, I didn't pastie here. I just typed directly here, but made the pastie for another channel. |
| 04:21 | <@Alek> | d'oh. >_> |
| 04:22 | <@Alek> | ahhhh pastebin |
| 04:22 | <@Alek> | lol |
| 04:25 | | chibispace is now known as iospacedout |
| 04:26 | | * Alek shares it, just cause. XD |
| 04:26 | <@Alek> | http://pastebin.com/5YTybG7K |
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| --- Log closed Wed Jul 18 12:12:45 2012 |
| --- Log opened Wed Jul 18 12:12:53 2012 |
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| 12:12 | | Irssi: #code: Total of 28 nicks [5 ops, 1 halfops, 0 voices, 22 normal] |
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| 13:15 | <@TheWatcher> | Ugh. Coding perl ans javascript by day, and c++ by night, is really messing with my headbones. |
| 13:36 | < Nemu> | Mo'like headboner, amirite? |
| 13:37 | < Nemu> | 'Cause, like, it's fucking you up |
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| 16:08 | | * TheWatcher hits 830 lines of code since 8am this morning, decides that should be enough on that for today |
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| 17:00 | | * SouthernMyst requires gobbledygoop. |
| 17:01 | < SouthernMyst> | ...and now I've figured out what to google to find it. Nevermind! |
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| 20:33 | | * Vornicus gets around to picking a shape for the damn trade interface. |
| 20:36 | < rms> | Two arrows pointing either past each other or at each other. |
| 20:36 | <~Vornicus> | Right, I got that. |
| 20:36 | <~Vornicus> | As in, I have now chosen it. |
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| --- Log closed Wed Jul 18 22:13:39 2012 |
| --- Log opened Wed Jul 18 22:13:46 2012 |
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| 22:36 | <~Vornicus> | gnah, hate this code. |
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| --- Log closed Thu Jul 19 00:00:52 2012 |