| --- Log opened Thu Jun 07 00:00:32 2012 |
| 00:04 | | io|pissedoff is now known as io |
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| 00:23 | <~Vornicus> | reiver: regarding last night, what's borderlands do wrong? |
| 00:23 | <~Vornicus> | reiver's not actually here |
| 00:28 | <@ToxicFrog> | I can name several things but none of them actually seem relevant to the discussion you were having. I will nonetheless happily expand on them when I get back from the grocery store. |
| 00:28 | <@ToxicFrog> | (also please for the love of god if you include identify scrolls in Vornio think about them and have them mean something~) |
| 00:28 | | You're now known as TheWatcher[T-2] |
| 00:34 | <~Vornicus> | (vornio would be my platformer. vornblo is my diabloish) |
| 00:37 | | Derakon[AFK] is now known as Derakon |
| 00:38 | <&Derakon> | Regarding ID: I think the development versions of Angband are doing interesting things with it. |
| 00:38 | <&Derakon> | Magical items get a selection of "affixes" that each provide some minor power boost to the item, like giving resistance to fire or slightly increasing damage. |
| 00:39 | <&Derakon> | Each affix is individually identifiable. |
| 00:39 | <&Derakon> | So once you learn an affix you recognize it on all future items that have it.- |
| 00:39 | <&Derakon> | s/-// |
| 00:39 | <&Derakon> | And you can learn an affix simply by observing it do its thing (e.g. hit something with a weapon with +damage affix -> learn the affix. Get hit by fire while wearing something with +fire resistance -> learn that affix) |
| 00:40 | <&Derakon> | So identification predominantly occurs during the early game, when each magical item is interesting and learning what things do by experimentation is comparatively safe. |
| 00:40 | <&Derakon> | While in the late game, when magical items are as common as muck, you also automatically recognize what they can do. |
| 00:40 | <~Vornicus> | Do different levels of the affix - to go back to Diablo, because I know it - is Red different from Ruby as far as learning affixes? |
| 00:40 | <&Derakon> | (At least, that's the goal; Angband's not quite there yet and none of this is in the release versions) |
| 00:41 | <&Derakon> | I believe they are, Vorn; however, you can also stack the same affix multiple times. |
| 00:41 | <&Derakon> | So most affixes aren't especially redundant. |
| 00:43 | | You're now known as TheWatcher[zZzZ] |
| --- Log closed Thu Jun 07 00:58:02 2012 |
| --- Log opened Thu Jun 07 00:58:10 2012 |
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| 00:59 | <@ToxicFrog> | Deriving something's level from its effects rather than the converse is, IMO, a mug's game. A lot of stuff is going to be situation- and character-dependent. |
| 01:00 | <@ToxicFrog> | Or will interact in unpredictable ways. |
| 01:00 | <~Vornicus> | Rather than deriving effects from level? |
| 01:00 | <@ToxicFrog> | Yeah. I mean, going "this is a level 40 item, that means its stats are (base stats) + (level bonus) and it gets (40/8) rolls on the random affix table" is easy |
| 01:01 | <@ToxicFrog> | Going "I have generated an item with these affixes, what is its effective level" is hard (as D&D 3.x demonstrates) |
| 01:01 | <&Derakon> | The planned approach for Pyrel is to pick a target object power, and to add affixes until the power is near the target. |
| 01:02 | <&Derakon> | Angband already has a system to calculate an object's power level, since that's needed for the random artifact generator. |
| 01:02 | <@ToxicFrog> | Especially when you get synergistic effects, like, say, "attack does weak splash damage", "attack briefly stuns target", and "attack speed increase" are all individually useful, but an item with all three of those is vastly more powerful than their individual usefulness implies because now you can stunlock entire groups of enemies forever. |
| 01:04 | <@ToxicFrog> | On the flip side, if I'm a caster who never attacks in the first place, that item might as well be unenchanted no matter what the level rating says. |
| 01:05 | <&Derakon> | But for immersion's sake, object power level should ignore the player's stats. |
| 01:06 | <~Vornicus> | WHat Der said. |
| 01:06 | <@ToxicFrog> | Er. I'm not sure how that's relevant? |
| 01:06 | <&Derakon> | Well, the main thing is to avoid generating obscenely-powerful-for-someone-else items when the player is fighting low-level mooks. |
| 01:07 | <&Derakon> | But secondarily the game world should not be obviously tailored to the player. |
| 01:07 | <&Derakon> | Ideally you do this by making all items useful to all characters. |
| 01:07 | <@ToxicFrog> | My argument is that OPL is not a useful stat to expose to the player, because what makes one item better than another is hugely character and situation dependent. |
| 01:07 | <&Derakon> | Oh, sure, you don't say "This item's power level is 9001." |
| 01:08 | <&Derakon> | The power level is a hidden, derived metric used to decide which items get generated. |
| 01:09 | <@ToxicFrog> | What I'm responding to here, incidentally, is |
| 01:09 | <@ToxicFrog> | <Vornicus> Partly, one of the things I hate about Diablo is that I can't tell how good the mundane stuff is compared to "lower tier" magical stuff |
| 01:09 | <@ToxicFrog> | <Vornicus> Whereas, sensibly balanced, I can tell just by the level number approximately how it stacks up. |
| 01:09 | <&Derakon> | Ah. |
| 01:09 | <&Derakon> | I missed that. |
| 01:09 | <~Vornicus> | Actually the problem I was having was essentially that my mental "pick shit up to sell" filter on diablo 2 was picking up magical leather armor that's approximately level 2 and gives me 300 on sale, and ignoring the gothic plate that's really about 20,000 |
| 01:10 | <@ToxicFrog> | Of course, cash value correlates poorly if at all with item utility anyways |
| 01:10 | <@ToxicFrog> | At least in D2 |
| 01:11 | <~Vornicus> | This is true. |
| 01:11 | <@ToxicFrog> | (Item has intrisic skill bonuses? It's worth 15k+ if it's a sceptre, staff, or wand, and bupkiss otherwise) |
| 01:12 | <@ToxicFrog> | (mundane full plate is worth more than slightly worse base armour enchanted to be better, or crazy multi-enchanted endgame weapons) |
| 01:12 | <@ToxicFrog> | (etc) |
| 01:14 | <@ToxicFrog> | Crossfire had a nethack-style autopickup option that, among other things, could be configured to pick up anything with a value density above X |
| 01:14 | <&Derakon> | Value per unit weight? |
| 01:14 | <@ToxicFrog> | Yep. |
| 01:14 | <@ToxicFrog> | It also had a spell, Alchemy, which - among other things - could be used to transform surrounding items into gold nuggets worth something like 1/4 market value |
| 01:15 | <@ToxicFrog> | So the typical approach to looting was to autopickup high-density stuff and anything you actually wanted, then sweep everything else into a huge pile and cast Alchemy |
| 01:15 | <&Derakon> | Yet another way to "solve" the issue of hauling loot back to town to sell without actually fixing the "99% of drops are useless" thing. |
| 01:15 | <&Derakon> | A lot of recent Angband work has been on making the town more and more vestigial. |
| 01:15 | <&Derakon> | Finding cool stuff is fun. Buying it, not so much |
| 01:16 | <@ToxicFrog> | (one day I tried sweeping everything into a cauldron and casting Alchemy on it instead. The resulting explosion killed six players, including myself, and reduced the center of town to the thaumaturgical equivalent of a radioactive crater) |
| 01:18 | <&Derakon> | (Awesome) |
| 01:21 | <@ToxicFrog> | (Yeah. Crossfire's alchemy system was "put ingredients in cauldron, cast Alchemy", resulting in a complexity of recipe vs. alchemy skill check. If the ingredients weren't a valid recipe it would just make shit up. Higher complexity means higher chance of disaster if you fail the roll.) |
| 01:23 | <@ToxicFrog> | Hmm. ToME4 also solves the symptoms but not the problem, so to speak - you get what is basically a bag of holding, stuff picked up goes into it automatically, but when you leave the map everything inside it is converted to cash. |
| 01:23 | <@ToxicFrog> | So before you leave you pull out the stuff you actually want. |
| 01:23 | <@ToxicFrog> | (you can't put stuff back into it, so you can't just pull out your 300kg gear collection, walk across the map boundary, and then put it back in) |
| 01:25 | <&Derakon> | Another thing Angband's been doing lately (which has made it into stable versions) is adding a squelching system. |
| 01:25 | <&Derakon> | So you can say "I don't ever want to see Scrolls of Darkness again" and it will automatically hide them. |
| 01:26 | | io is now known as borderio |
| 01:26 | <&Derakon> | And the "destroy object" command got turned into "squelch this specific object". |
| 01:26 | | borderio is now known as borderspace |
| 01:26 | <&Derakon> | You can toggle display of squelched items, too, so you can freely squelch niche stuff and then look for it if you happen to need it. |
| 01:26 | <&Derakon> | This does result in the occasional odd situation of chests with "nothing" in them, or reading a Scroll of Acquirement (i.e. "generate high-level item") and getting nothing. |
| 01:29 | <@ToxicFrog> | Hmm. "99% of drops are useless" is kind of a tricky thing, actually. |
| 01:31 | <@ToxicFrog> | In Diablo (or Crossfire), for example, a lot of drops will be useful, just not to you - but both have multiplayer, inter-player trading, and the ability for one player to play multiple characters. |
| 01:32 | <@ToxicFrog> | In Nethack, Crossfire, and Titan Quest, drops are generated when the monster is, and said monster will use them - spears may be useless to you, but satyrs use spears as their preferred weapons so that's what they'll drop. |
| 01:35 | <&Derakon> | Yeah, when monsters use items it's a different story. |
| 01:36 | <&Derakon> | I remember playing the first Avernum and laboriously hauling every ogre's sword, shield, and chainmail back to town to sell. |
| 01:36 | <&Derakon> | I was rather more OCD back then. |
| 01:37 | < celticminstrel> | Heh. |
| 01:37 | < celticminstrel> | I did that in Exile as well, though a bit less so since drops vanished when you left town. |
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| 01:53 | <~Vornicus> | TF: anyw2ay what were the problems with Borderlands you were talking about? |
| 01:54 | <@ToxicFrog> | Vornicus: the biggest one is a twofer: level hugely determines effectiveness and it does no level scaling whatsoever. |
| 01:55 | <@ToxicFrog> | So if you press ahead a bit faster than the game designers planned on you rapidly run into enemies that are literally impossible for you to kill, and if you stick around and thouroughly clear out each area, by the end of it you will be one-shotting everything and none of the loot will even be worth looking at. |
| 01:55 | <~Vornicus> | oh fail. |
| 01:55 | <@ToxicFrog> | The best part is that the game actually supports level scaling but for some reason it doesn't get enabled until NG++ |
| 01:56 | <~Vornicus> | double fail. |
| 01:59 | <~Vornicus> | I do want place-based scaling, the way diablo sort of does it (by binning critters by level and picking the critters based on the zone's level), but I don't want it so going such-and-such faster gives you literally unkillable enemies |
| 02:00 | <@ToxicFrog> | Yeah, there's kind of a third problem in there, which is that even a relatively small level disparity makes the lower-level character completely incapable of threatening the higher-level character in any way. |
| 02:03 | <@ToxicFrog> | Whereas ideally you should still be able to take out higher-level enemies if you're skilled enough and lower-level enemies shouldn't be something you can completely ignore. |
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| 02:07 | <~Vornicus> | TO a point anyway. |
| 02:08 | <~Vornicus> | The width of the level curve is a tricky challenge. |
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| 03:24 | <~Vornicus> | Diablo 2 had it about right - I could reasonably crash my way through the game at a variety of different paces. |
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| 05:13 | <~Vornicus> | Man. pygame just doesn't like me. |
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| 06:35 | <~Vornicus> | aside from blowing up on exit for no discernible reason, apparently letting it go on fullscreen for more than about 30 seconds crashes my computer. |
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| 11:48 | < Thalass> | hello world |
| 11:48 | < Thalass> | (geddit?) |
| 11:50 | <@Tamber> | GEDIT?! ed or go home! >:| |
| 11:53 | <&jerith> | I have a friend called ed. |
| 11:54 | <&jerith> | We once got him a shirt for his birthday. It said "the standard text editor". |
| 11:54 | <@Tamber> | :) |
| --- Log closed Thu Jun 07 11:59:58 2012 |
| --- Log opened Thu Jun 07 12:00:06 2012 |
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| --- Log closed Thu Jun 07 13:02:54 2012 |
| --- Log opened Thu Jun 07 13:14:22 2012 |
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| 13:17 | < RichyB> | jerith, you are a good friend. :) |
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| 18:11 | < celticminstrel> | How on earth can you get a segfault on the line "if(!SDL_PollEvent(&evt)) break;" where evt is a static local? o.O |
| 18:15 | | * iofficespace hmms |
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| 18:26 | < Tarinaky> | celticminstrel: Compiler bug? |
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| 18:39 | < celticminstrel> | I dunno. |
| 18:40 | < celticminstrel> | It's not consistent. |
| 18:40 | < celticminstrel> | Next time I run it it's always fine. Without rebuilding, I think. |
| 18:44 | < Atreus> | Well, evt is the only variable. What is evt exactly? |
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| 20:22 | < celticminstrel> | Atreus: evt is an SDL_Event. |
| 20:22 | < celticminstrel> | Also I have no idea why I wasn't in the channel. |
| 20:25 | < Atreus> | celticminstrel: I mean what is its value just before it segfaults. |
| 20:25 | < Atreus> | What's it's address in memory? |
| 20:26 | < Atreus> | Perhaps evt is being passed in such a way that it's address is zero - thus causing the function you're passing it to segfault. |
| 20:26 | < Atreus> | IDK |
| 20:30 | < celticminstrel> | Oh. |
| 20:30 | < celticminstrel> | Um, it's a static variable. |
| 20:37 | < Atreus> | Oh. |
| 20:44 | < celticminstrel> | (Speaking of static variables, I need to eliminate a bunch of them.) |
| 20:44 | < celticminstrel> | (Or move them all to one file.) |
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| 22:37 | < Rhamphoryncus> | .. damnit. 5 minutes chasing down a bug due to a missing & on an vector argument |
| 22:38 | < RichyB> | How did that not result in a compilation error or warning? |
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| 22:42 | < Rhamphoryncus> | it happily copied the vector instead |
| 22:43 | < Rhamphoryncus> | And didn't mind that I proceeded to return a reference to an element of that copy |
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| 23:07 | | iofficespace is now known as io|driving |
| 23:12 | < Rhamphoryncus> | haw, I broke google XD |
| 23:13 | < Rhamphoryncus> | searched for size_t printf. Then edited the search to also include %z. Page 1 has a big blank where the results should be |
| 23:18 | < Namegduf> | It does that on some inputs, doesn't do instant. |
| 23:22 | < Rhamphoryncus> | No, it actually buggered up their javascript |
| 23:23 | < Rhamphoryncus> | Even after removing the %z it wouldn't work anymore. Had to load a fresh page |
| 23:28 | < Namegduf> | Huh. |
| 23:28 | < Namegduf> | It didn't do it when I tried. |
| 23:28 | < Rhamphoryncus> | Maybe you have to do the search, then do another edit, before doing the %z |
| 23:29 | < Rhamphoryncus> | Oh, verbatim is required |
| 23:34 | | * Rhamphoryncus finds several bugs after plastering __attribute__((format(printf, 2, 3))) on his debug-print functions |
| 23:38 | | You're now known as TheWatcher[T-2] |
| 23:44 | | You're now known as TheWatcher[zZzZ] |
| 23:45 | < Rhamphoryncus> | wee, off by one in string manipulation. Damn C++ for forcing me to use printf |
| 23:46 | < Rhamphoryncus> | (on the plus side I'm pretty sure this did nothing but truncate the result. No risk of an overflow |
| 23:53 | < RichyB> | heh |
| 23:53 | < RichyB> | I just spent like five minutes staring at my REPL in increasing confusion |
| 23:54 | < RichyB> | before realising that I had started python instead of ghci, and typing Haskell in was just not going to work. |
| 23:56 | < Rhamphoryncus> | LOL |
| 23:57 | < RichyB> | The only thing that properly tipped me off was when typing "let x = 5" didn't work. |
| --- Log closed Fri Jun 08 00:00:47 2012 |