| --- Log opened Wed Apr 11 00:00:38 2012 |
| --- Day changed Wed Apr 11 2012 |
| 00:00 | <&McMartin> | The irony here is quite rich |
| 00:00 | <&McMartin> | http://ocaml-batteries-team.github.com/batteries-included/hdoc2/ |
| 00:00 | <&McMartin> | Also: I am v. sad there is no BatCave |
| 00:01 | | cpux [cpux@Nightstar-c5874a39.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #code |
| 00:07 | | You're now known as TheWatcher[T-2] |
| 00:10 | | You're now known as TheWatcher[zZzZ] |
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| 00:28 | <@ToxicFrog> | McMartin: what is the irony? |
| 00:29 | <&McMartin> | "Batteries Included" is an independent project for separate download |
| 00:30 | <@ToxicFrog> | Aah. Yes. |
| 00:30 | <@ToxicFrog> | I was looking too narrowly~ |
| 00:31 | <&McMartin> | The name was also more or less taken from Python's motto, where for most things no separate download is necessary and that is the selling point |
| 00:31 | <&McMartin> | Needs to be a library for SIGKILL and friends |
| 00:31 | <&McMartin> | Also one for mobile devices |
| 00:31 | <&McMartin> | And telephones |
| 00:32 | <@ToxicFrog> | Yes >.> |
| 00:32 | <&McMartin> | Not sure if BatPhone should be a submodule of BatMobile |
| 00:37 | | Derakon[AFK] is now known as Derakon |
| 00:46 | | Reiver is now known as Orthia |
| 01:44 | < RichyB> | McMartin, and a library for rendering and pagination of Unix commands' documentation! |
| 01:44 | < RichyB> | It could be called Bat... something... |
| 01:45 | < Namegduf> | No more chroot. Only batcave. |
| 01:47 | <@Alek> | the documentation library? Oracle. XD |
| 01:51 | <~Vornicus> | I think someone didn't think through their library prefix here. Or possibly did. |
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| 02:20 | | Kindamoody[zZz] is now known as Kindamoody |
| 02:31 | < Noah> | http://me.veekun.com/blog/2012/04/09/php-a-fractal-of-bad-design/ |
| 02:35 | <&Derakon> | Ah yes, mysql_real_escape_string. |
| 02:35 | <&Derakon> | If your standard library has a function whose name indicates it's really the one you want, for serious, then you have a problem. |
| 02:41 | < Noah> | hehe |
| 02:41 | < Noah> | "A programmer will eventually tell you to use Mac OSX or Linux. If the programmer likes fonts and typography, they'll tell you to get a Mac OSX computer. If they like control and have a huge beard, they'll tell you to install Linux. " |
| 02:42 | <&Derakon> | That's some old stereotyping there. |
| 02:42 | < Noah> | I had a huge beard though... |
| 02:42 | < Noah> | It's from "Learn Python The Hard Way" |
| 02:42 | < Noah> | Which is free in HTML format! |
| 02:43 | < Noah> | http://learnpythonthehardway.org/book/ex0.html |
| 02:43 | < Noah> | He also says I should tell you emacers and vimers to fuck off |
| 02:44 | < Noah> | I'm still finding Emacs obtuse as hell. maybe there's a youtube tutorial for it... |
| 02:46 | <&Derakon> | Mm, what you probably want is a cheat sheet of commonly useful commands. |
| 03:00 | < Noah> | Maybe |
| 03:00 | < Noah> | Gonna use Geany for now until I get the courage to yell at Emacs some more |
| 03:02 | < Noah> | What's python's suggested width? 79? |
| 03:08 | <~Vornicus> | 79, yes |
| 03:09 | <~Vornicus> | A limit I freely ignore in my own code |
| 03:09 | <&Derakon> | Sometimes you just need a longer line. |
| 03:11 | <~Vornicus> | My editor gives me a guide line, which I have set at 80; I blow past it often. My list comprehensions bring all the boys to the yard. |
| 03:13 | <~Vornicus> | Actually in general I leave the spacing rules aside until I need to publish code someplace important, because 4 is waay too many spaces. |
| 03:18 | | Rhamphoryncus [rhamph@Nightstar-5697f7e2.abhsia.telus.net] has joined #code |
| 03:22 | < Noah> | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whitespace_(programming_language) |
| 03:23 | < Noah> | And yes, I just like seeing where the 79 mark is, I do occasionally try to abide by it, except when it makes my code look really really weird |
| 03:25 | < Noah> | Who was it that said if the 4 space tabs started making his code look funny, he likely needed to refactor? |
| 03:26 | | Vornicus changed the topic of #code to: Welcome to #Code! || Rants and monologues are encouraged; many cores, no waiting || Pastebin: http://pastebin.starforge.co.uk/ (Note antispam question, answer 'Yes') || ? x, ich werde x Wissenschaft tun || Shameless self-promotion: https://github.com/jerith/depixel || RIP Jack Tramiel |
| 03:45 | <~Vornicus> | I've never met code that I didn't think looked funny at 4 space tabs. |
| 04:43 | < Noah> | Ah damn, I got through all these exercises on my own knowledge and here's one I don't know off-hand, now I gotta read, feck |
| 04:47 | < Noah> | "If /home/asshat/draft and /home/douchebag/letter are links to the same file, and the following sequence of events occurs, what will the date in the opening of the letter? 1) Douchebag gives the command vim letter. 2) Asshat gives the command vim draft. 3) Asshat changes the date in the opening of the letter to Jan 1, 1970, writes the file, and exits from vim. 4) Douchebag changes the date to Uhg of Uhgtober, 1,000,000 BC, writes the file, and |
| 04:48 | <~Vornicus> | BC, writes the file, and... |
| 04:48 | < Noah> | exits from vim." |
| 04:49 | <~Vornicus> | if it acts like most simple text editors, then the date will be what Douchebag changed it to. |
| 04:49 | <~Vornicus> | In fact that's likely to happen even in cool editors that hook the filechanged thingy. |
| 04:50 | <~Vornicus> | (though Douchebag in that case will see that the file's changed under him and will ask whether he wants to reload) |
| 04:52 | < Noah> | That's what I expect |
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| 05:28 | < Noah1> | (12:28:24 AM) Pi: c++ is a bad language |
| 05:29 | | Noah1 is now known as Noah |
| 05:29 | < Noah> | This guy |
| 05:29 | < Noah> | amazes me |
| 05:29 | <&McMartin> | C++ *is* a bad language. |
| 05:29 | <&McMartin> | It does have some useful properties |
| 05:29 | <&McMartin> | But not even its father can love it. |
| 05:30 | <&Derakon> | It's about as close to the bare metal as you ever really need to get these days. |
| 05:30 | < Noah> | Are programming languages like governments, they'll all bad but not as bad as the ones before them? |
| 05:30 | <&Derakon> | New languages are not necessarily improvements on old ones~ |
| 05:30 | <&McMartin> | Quite |
| 05:30 | <&McMartin> | I'd say it's more that all of them have obvious fatal flaws but sometimes they don't matter for your problem domain. |
| 05:31 | | * Noah makes all of you program in Piet. |
| 05:31 | | * McMartin secretly replaces it with OCaml. |
| 05:31 | | * Noah secretly replaces it with perl. |
| 05:32 | | * McMartin also slightly reworks a Project Euler problem with one that doesn't admit the stock solution, and turns it into a combined coding/essay question for interviewees. |
| 05:32 | < Noah> | Or Folger's Crystals |
| 05:32 | <&McMartin> | Reference implementation solution: 125 lines |
| 05:32 | <&McMartin> | Reference implementation solution, the part doing the work: 5 lines |
| 05:33 | <&McMartin> | This is why C++ is a bad language, idly~ |
| 05:33 | <&McMartin> | Java inherits many of its unfortunatenesses directly from it. |
| 05:33 | < Noah> | lol |
| 05:33 | < Noah> | (12:32:58 AM) ErikBunny: you say i'm wrong and then the conversation is apparently over even though you have no bloody idea what i even use it for |
| 05:33 | < Noah> | (12:33:01 AM) Pi: sorry, i have to debug code written by people like you |
| 05:34 | < Noah> | Also, "I plump code so I get to be an asshole and tell you you're wrong" is probably the weirdest argument platform I've seen |
| 05:34 | <&McMartin> | I do not understand the verb "plump" in this context |
| 05:34 | < Noah> | plumb* |
| 05:35 | <&McMartin> | Oh |
| 05:35 | < Noah> | Yea, had a lysdexic moment apparently |
| 05:35 | <&McMartin> | No worries |
| 05:35 | <&McMartin> | It's much harder to guess typos that form actual words |
| 05:35 | <&Derakon> | I'll say this: the shrieking horrors I've dealt with have definitely informed how I write code now. |
| 05:35 | <&Derakon> | In the sense that I have motivation for enforcing fairly strict style rules. |
| 05:36 | <&McMartin> | Ho yez |
| 05:36 | <&Derakon> | (For example, <3 <3 <3 <3 namespaces) |
| 05:36 | < Noah> | Hehe |
| 05:36 | <&McMartin> | It doesn't matter what they are, as long as there *are* some. |
| 05:36 | <&McMartin> | C++ namespaces are kind of :stonk: because they do double-duty replacing C's "static" for file-scoped functions. |
| 05:37 | <&McMartin> | Hrm. :stonk: isn't on lparchive yet. |
| 05:37 | < Noah> | All I've learned from listening to coders bitch about programming languages is that I made a good choice in learning C |
| 05:37 | < Noah> | C? Wtf, python |
| 05:37 | < Noah> | How the fuck did I get C from Python? |
| 05:37 | <&McMartin> | We've been talking about C++. |
| 05:37 | <&Derakon> | McM: http://3.7mustang.com/vb/images/smilies/stonk.gif ? |
| 05:38 | <&McMartin> | Yup |
| 05:38 | <&McMartin> | It's :stare: and :gonk: combined. |
| 05:38 | <&Derakon> | Heh. |
| 05:38 | <&Derakon> | I should probably get an SA account one of these days. |
| 05:38 | <&Derakon> | I've mooched off of their byproducts enough. |
| 05:38 | < Noah> | Do it, become a goon |
| 05:39 | <&McMartin> | Just remember to lurk before posting, if you bother posting at all =P |
| 05:39 | <&Derakon> | Quite. |
| 05:39 | < celticminstrel> | Python doesn't even have a C in it! :P |
| 05:40 | <&McMartin> | If you only learn two languages, you can do a hell of a lot worse than C/Python. |
| 05:40 | < Noah> | I wanted to punch my best friend, he got a goon card, and I suggested he get me one, and he said I doesn't trust me to lurk enough. |
| 05:40 | < Noah> | he's right, but fuck him! |
| 05:40 | <&Derakon> | Goon card? |
| 05:40 | <&McMartin> | An SA Account, presumably |
| 05:41 | <&Derakon> | And yeah, C/Python have good synergy. |
| 05:41 | < Noah> | ^ |
| 05:41 | <&Derakon> | Python for expressiveness, C for speed, and they crosslink fairly easily. |
| 05:41 | < Noah> | Yea, and we mean C, not C++? |
| 05:41 | <&McMartin> | Yeah. |
| 05:41 | < Noah> | Isn't C... older than me? |
| 05:41 | <&McMartin> | C++ has all the ways C does of accidentally shooting yourself in the face and adds about 50 more, half of which are invisible. |
| 05:42 | <&McMartin> | (nonvirtual destructors wtf) |
| 05:42 | < Noah> | nice |
| 05:42 | < Noah> | I suppose if I learned C and C++ |
| 05:42 | < Noah> | I could write my own mud?... |
| 05:42 | <&Derakon> | You don't need those to write MUDs. |
| 05:42 | <&McMartin> | Hell, you can write your own mud in Python alone. |
| 05:42 | < Noah> | Good point |
| 05:42 | <&McMartin> | PerlMUD is alive and well, and anything Perl can do, Python can. |
| 05:42 | <&Derakon> | There are very few applications that demand you use a specific language. |
| 05:43 | < Noah> | I should've said steal established MUD code |
| 05:43 | <&McMartin> | http://posted-stuff.blogspot.com/2010/08/quick-survey-of-python-mud-codebases.ht ml |
| 05:43 | <&McMartin> | First result from googling "python mud" |
| 05:43 | <&McMartin> | Wasn't sure if I'd get something like this or reptilian monster tables |
| 05:44 | <&Derakon> | I get the impression that MUDs are kinda like roguelikes in that every programmer who plays them gets the desire to write their own engine at some point. |
| 05:44 | <&McMartin> | Well, when you're online, "IRC bot" is a standard thing to do for practice |
| 05:44 | <&McMartin> | A MUD is an IRC bot with a combat engine =P |
| 05:44 | < Noah> | Already procrastinating on one of those |
| 05:44 | <&McMartin> | see?~ |
| 05:44 | | * Noah pokes uselessly at his bot |
| 05:45 | < Noah> | I really should start figuring out how to go about using eevee's pokedex database in my bot without a lot of fire |
| 05:45 | < Noah> | The other thing seems to be writing an emulator for something else |
| 05:46 | < Noah> | And I'm fairly sure I'll never want to do that |
| 05:46 | <&McMartin> | Emulators are quite a bit of work and usually want you to be very close to the metal |
| 05:46 | <&McMartin> | Since kind of want to be taking up the role that Python itself does, for instance. |
| 05:46 | < Noah> | Yea, you have to be a master of architectures presumably |
| 05:47 | <&Derakon> | Well, it's more that you end up implementing a lot of rather finicky details. |
| 05:47 | <&Derakon> | Which gets messy no matter what language you use, pretty much. |
| 05:47 | <&McMartin> | Heh |
| 05:47 | | * McMartin wonders if he still has Thanes around. |
| 05:47 | <&Derakon> | ? |
| 05:47 | < Noah> | Yea, depending if you want to go the accuracy route, or the speed route |
| 05:47 | <&Derakon> | Either way. |
| 05:48 | <&Derakon> | The speed route is probably more hacky, but accuracy implies to me simulating the hardware in addition to any standard libraries, and that can't be pleasant. |
| 05:48 | <&McMartin> | THANES: The Half-Assed NES. A fragment of an NES emulator I wrote mainly to see if I had gotten sprite encoding right for my Ophis frameworks. |
| 05:48 | <&McMartin> | It was able to correctly display the Gradius title screen! |
| 05:48 | | * Derakon facepalms. |
| 05:48 | < Noah> | Nice name |
| 05:49 | <&Derakon> | McM has a way with words. |
| 05:50 | < Noah> | Oh, I do know |
| 05:51 | < Noah> | I wonder if I could write a frontend to Mednafen |
| 05:51 | < Noah> | Been meaning to look into GUI programming under python more seriously |
| 05:51 | <&Derakon> | PyQt or wxPython. |
| 05:51 | <&Derakon> | Those are basically your options. |
| 05:52 | <&McMartin> | There is also PyGtk, but, well. |
| 05:52 | < Noah> | Or pygame? |
| 05:52 | <&McMartin> | pygame is for framebuffers, not GUIs per se |
| 05:52 | < Noah> | True, but I COULD make one |
| 05:52 | <&Derakon> | Yeah. |
| 05:52 | <&McMartin> | Sssort of. |
| 05:52 | <&McMartin> | It won't behave the way you expect |
| 05:52 | <&Derakon> | But it'd be way more work than you really want. |
| 05:52 | <&McMartin> | pygame shows up to Windows as being, basically, DirectX |
| 05:52 | <&Derakon> | Pygame won't do OS-standard widgets, for example. |
| 05:52 | < Noah> | Just like I COULD write an operating system in brainfuck |
| 05:52 | <&Derakon> | Or file dialogs. |
| 05:53 | <&McMartin> | It won't let you pop dialog boxes that you can move around independently of your app, etc. |
| 05:53 | <&Derakon> | Writing a GUI in pygame is something like writing a webserver in C. |
| 05:53 | <&Derakon> | You can do it, and sometimes it's even your best option, but really, it probably isn't. |
| 05:54 | <&Derakon> | Er, s/webserver/CGI script/ |
| 05:54 | < Noah> | Right |
| 05:55 | < Noah> | But yea, I probably wouldn't peg pygame for a frontend, but if for some reason, I wanted to, I have ideas for it |
| 05:55 | <&McMartin> | Well, if you do anything of interest in Pygame, you'll need *some* kind of gui-like thing |
| 05:55 | <&McMartin> | But it's going to look like a video game's GUI, not like a Windows/Mac/Linux/whatever app. |
| 05:56 | < Noah> | Exactly |
| 05:56 | <&Derakon> | When I wrote Fusillade I was able to fake my way to buttons, a simple text-entry box, and non-draggable dialogs. |
| 05:56 | < Noah> | And I'm not necessarily against that sort of look to be honest |
| 05:56 | <&Derakon> | But it took ~50 lines per instead of ~5 like if I'd been using a proper widget library. |
| 05:57 | < Noah> | Yea |
| 05:57 | < Noah> | I could highly abstract the front end |
| 05:57 | <&McMartin> | I should get cracking on Hex Inverter's faked buttons, really. |
| 05:57 | <&Derakon> | You'd still have to implement the back end though. |
| 05:58 | < Noah> | Say, you load it up, and instead of menus, you have a little guy you move around to shelves with your roms on it, and you walk him over to your console, and play alittle mini game to get the features you want the rom to run with |
| 05:58 | < Noah> | it'd be terrible! |
| 05:58 | <&Derakon> | Sounds like Microsoft Bob. |
| 05:58 | < Noah> | Oh god, do I want to know? |
| 05:59 | <&Derakon> | IIRC it presented the computer as a house. |
| 05:59 | <&Derakon> | So you moved between different "rooms" to access different apps. |
| 05:59 | < Noah> | Oh god, I found it |
| 06:00 | < Noah> | So, yea, I guess a little like Microsoft Bob |
| 06:00 | < Noah> | And saying that made my mouth taste sour |
| 06:01 | < Noah> | http://toastytech.com/guis/bob.html |
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| 12:15 | < Tarinaky> | How do I revert a single file in git/ |
| 12:15 | < Tarinaky> | I have a bug I'm working on (as an unstaged commit) that's clobbered a config file that was tracked. |
| 12:15 | < Tarinaky> | I want to revert the clobbered file so I can continue working on the bug. |
| 12:24 | < Tarinaky> | Oh ffs |
| 12:34 | <&McMartin> | git checkout (filename) |
| 12:52 | < Tarinaky> | Cheers. |
| 13:13 | < froztbyte> | so, re yesterday's link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_YWMGuh15nE |
| 13:13 | < froztbyte> | 4k |
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| 13:18 | <@TheWatcher> | ... holy fucking shit on a stick |
| 13:19 | < froztbyte> | yeah man |
| 13:19 | < froztbyte> | these people make me feel inadequate about my life :) |
| 13:19 | < froztbyte> | (and my life is pretty damn good (in general) to start with_ |
| 13:19 | < froztbyte> | s/_/)/ |
| 13:21 | <@TheWatcher> | I have a pretty god idea how to go aobut all that, but in 4k? Heeeeell no. |
| 13:22 | <@TheWatcher> | *good |
| 13:22 | < froztbyte> | I've got enough knowledge to know how to get started, but it'll take me a while to get there |
| 13:23 | < froztbyte> | and yeah, crunching that down to 4k? lol. |
| 13:24 | < froztbyte> | oh man |
| 13:24 | < froztbyte> | TheWatcher: check out the Chaos Theory one for nice detail |
| 13:26 | <@TheWatcher> | Yeah, I remember that one. Hilarious that it got 2nd place ¬¬ |
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| 13:28 | <@TheWatcher> | ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HK3jEoBrx5w was the 64k winner that year) |
| 13:28 | <&jerith> | How much of that was outsourced to the video hardware? |
| 13:28 | < froztbyte> | a lot |
| 13:29 | < froztbyte> | but that's often been the spirit of the demo scene |
| 13:29 | < froztbyte> | make you got dance to the best that you can |
| 13:29 | <&jerith> | How much to the audio hardware? |
| 13:29 | <&jerith> | I mean, the music's easy to pack down if you get the samples for free. |
| 13:30 | < froztbyte> | mmmmm, the Assembly 2011 demo is good too |
| 13:30 | <@TheWatcher> | Generally they generate textures and samples programmatically. |
| 13:30 | < froztbyte> | http://pouet.net/prod.php?which=57446 |
| 13:30 | < froztbyte> | (combined demo though, not 64k) |
| 13:30 | <&jerith> | And if you can reuse the music data as part of your landscape stuff, that's basically free. :-) |
| 13:39 | < froztbyte> | TheWatcher: mmm, maybe getting the dancer motion done is more difficult? |
| 13:39 | < froztbyte> | it certainly doesn't look as impressive/good though |
| 13:39 | <@TheWatcher> | Yeah, indeed. I much preferred Chaos Theory |
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| 14:19 | <@ToxicFrog> | Tracking of individual clients. |
| 14:20 | <@ToxicFrog> | The first time Kessler is run, generate and store a UUID in the save file (for example, by appending it to Jeb's name). |
| 14:20 | <@ToxicFrog> | This can be used by the server to identify the client - or, more specifically, the client's save - across runs. |
| 14:20 | <@ToxicFrog> | We could store it separately, but I want it to go away if the save file is deleted. |
| 14:21 | <@ToxicFrog> | The main utility here is that it lets the server know what the client has already been given; in particular, it means the server can detect if it gave the client a flight which later vanished - which it may respond to by not giving that client another copy of the flight, or even by deleting it from the server. |
| 14:22 | <@ToxicFrog> | This requires the flight group ID upgrades that I'm currently working on to support MET updating so that it can uniquely identify flights, of course. |
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| 17:10 | | Noah [noah@Nightstar-171d510a.pools.spcsdns.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 121 seconds] |
| 17:46 | | ToxicFrog [ToxicFrog@ServerAdministrator.Nightstar.Net] has quit [Operation timed out] |
| 17:48 | | ToxicFrog [ToxicFrog@ServerAdministrator.Nightstar.Net] has joined #code |
| 17:48 | | mode/#code [+o ToxicFrog] by ChanServ |
| 17:59 | | Kindamoody|out is now known as Kindamoody |
| 18:18 | | himi-cat [fow035@Nightstar-5d05bada.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 121 seconds] |
| 18:31 | | himi-cat [fow035@Nightstar-5d05bada.internode.on.net] has joined #code |
| 18:31 | | mode/#code [+o himi-cat] by ChanServ |
| 19:14 | | Kindamoody is now known as Kindamoody[zZz] |
| 19:16 | | Vornucopia [NSwebIRC@C888DE.7F9621.4A1301.BBBE7B] has joined #code |
| 19:21 | | Stalker [Z@Nightstar-5aa18eaf.balk.dk] has joined #code |
| 21:06 | | Rhamphoryncus [rhamph@Nightstar-5697f7e2.abhsia.telus.net] has quit [Client exited] |
| 21:15 | | Syloq_Home [Syloq@NetworkAdministrator.Nightstar.Net] has quit [Client closed the connection] |
| 21:24 | | Syloq_Home [Syloq@NetworkAdministrator.Nightstar.Net] has joined #code |
| 21:56 | | Vornucopia [NSwebIRC@C888DE.7F9621.4A1301.BBBE7B] has quit [[NS] Quit: Page closed] |
| 23:06 | | himi-cat [fow035@Nightstar-5d05bada.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 121 seconds] |
| 23:48 | | You're now known as TheWatcher[T-2] |
| 23:52 | | You're now known as TheWatcher[zZzZ] |
| --- Log closed Thu Apr 12 00:00:16 2012 |