| --- Log opened Mon Apr 02 00:00:28 2012 |
| --- Day changed Mon Apr 02 2012 |
| 00:00 | < celticminstrel> | Loopholes in what? |
| 00:00 | <@Alek> | so, science journals get stuck in all the loopholes? |
| 00:01 | <@Alek> | ?_? |
| 00:03 | < gnolam> | All the really sleazy stuff you hear of record companies doing to new artists? Standard fare for journals. Transfer of copyright, exclusivity contracts, you name it. |
| 00:05 | < gnolam> | So you have to resort to various shenanigans to be able to publish a paper in one of the dicky journals while also providing open access to it. |
| 00:07 | < gnolam> | The "standard" method is to publish a preprint version that's /technically/ not the same paper as the one that's submitted to the journal. |
| 00:10 | <&McMartin> | Eesh. |
| 00:11 | <&McMartin> | Is the ACM unusually good about this or something? |
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| 00:35 | <@ToxicFrog> | This was not my experience with the IJRC either. |
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| 02:00 | < Noah> | Hey hey hey, don't go in muh shed |
| 02:10 | < Noah> | So, anyone done remapping on a gamepad in Linux before |
| 02:12 | <@ToxicFrog> | You want qjoypad3 |
| 02:13 | < Noah> | Thanks. I like Kega Fusion for Linux, since I'm on 64 bit, for it's the only emulator that I have that can't bind to my microsoft game pads POV hat |
| 02:14 | | Kindamoody[zZz] is now known as Kindamoody |
| 02:14 | <@ToxicFrog> | While I haven't heard of KF, I have used qjp3 with great success rebinding various gamepads. |
| 02:14 | <@ToxicFrog> | Although I've never tried it with an MS. |
| 02:15 | < Noah> | It's mostly Just Worked. Except for Kega, and all the other buttons work in Kega, JUST the POV hat doesn't |
| 02:16 | <@ToxicFrog> | You should be able to bind the hat to, say, the arrow keys using qjoypad |
| 02:17 | < Noah> | That's my plan |
| 02:20 | < Noah> | It's easy to use, I like it |
| 02:21 | <@ToxicFrog> | Yeah, my only complaint about it is that it uses scancodes in the config file, so they aren't easily hand-editable or portable across machines |
| 02:21 | < Noah> | Well, it's not like I'm going to dropbox them to be honest, I can live with that |
| 02:22 | < Noah> | But a yaml based config would be nice |
| 02:24 | < Noah> | Also, added caffeine ppa since Linux doesn't give a flip about input from a gamepad when it's time to screensave |
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| 02:57 | <@ToxicFrog> | Oh dear. Newbie in the general programming questions thread who thinks he likes PHP :/ |
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| 03:09 | < celticminstrel> | Oh fun! |
| 03:14 | <@ToxicFrog> | (under further discussion it turns out that he likes HLLs, and PHP is the only one he's used) |
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| 03:30 | < celticminstrel> | XD |
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| 03:45 | < Noah> | So, on the subject of Nvidia and FUCKING SCREEN TEARING... |
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| 03:52 | < Noah> | It would appear that I am on 280.13, and 295.33 are the current drivers |
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| 04:42 | < Noah> | Damnit xfce, you're so plain, but you're so good |
| 04:50 | <&McMartin> | Sssssshhhhhh |
| 04:50 | <&McMartin> | They'll hear you and then the next release will be TOUCHSCREEN OPTIMIZED by which we mean exclusive |
| 04:52 | < Eri> | Touchscreen optimized by which it's meant to say, "We're redefining the desktop paradigm and moving towards a tablet-inspired UI of limited utility?" |
| 04:52 | < Noah> | http://hackaday.com/2012/03/31/floppy-autoloader-takes-the-pain-out-of-archiving -5000-amiga-disks/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+ha ckaday%2FLgoM+%28Hack+a+Day%29&utm_content=Google+Reader |
| 04:53 | < Noah> | gah, must remember to goo.gl |
| 04:56 | < Noah> | http://goo.gl/uuSO This looks neat, and might be combined with LOSS projects |
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| 05:04 | < Noah> | http://www.ex-parrot.com/~pete/upside-down-ternet.html |
| 05:04 | < Noah> | haha |
| 05:05 | < celticminstrel> | xfce? |
| 05:07 | < Noah> | It's a superlite desktop for Linux |
| 05:07 | < Noah> | Linus left KDE for Gnome, then he left the "unholy mess" for Xfce |
| 05:09 | < Noah> | what's the command line for making something executable? |
| 05:11 | < rms> | chmod +x <file> |
| 05:11 | < rms> | If you own the file: u+x, if you don't but are in the group: g+x, if you just want everyone to be able to run it: a+x |
| 05:14 | < Noah> | Thanks |
| 05:14 | < Noah> | Now, here's a less obvious question |
| 05:15 | < Noah> | How do I get out of X from gnome 3? |
| 05:15 | < rms> | CTRL+Alt+F1 |
| 05:15 | < Noah> | I assume that will kill the x server and drop me into a command line? |
| 05:16 | < rms> | CTRL+ALT+Backspace can kill X. However, distros have started disabling that. |
| 05:16 | < rms> | No |
| 05:16 | < Noah> | I see |
| 05:16 | < rms> | It'll just switch the VT |
| 05:16 | < rms> | Alt+F7 (from the F1 one) will get you back |
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| 10:34 | | * gnolam sighs. |
| 10:35 | < gnolam> | Is the concept of working directories really /that/ hard to fathom? |
| 10:36 | <@TheWatcher> | ? |
| 10:40 | < gnolam> | "My program works fine from the IDE, but it crashes if I double-click the exe! What's wrong?" <- like... 80% of all crash-related newbie game programming questions |
| 10:42 | < gnolam> | And the answer is always that their resources are in the IDE's working directory, which isn't the same as the one as the executable actually resides in. |
| 10:43 | < gnolam> | (And then you have to give them the "Check ALL THE return values" speech.) |
| 10:45 | < gnolam> | -as |
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| 12:27 | < Tarinaky> | Yes, working directories are hard to fathom. |
| 12:27 | < Tarinaky> | Not because it's a difficult concept... |
| 12:28 | < Tarinaky> | But because I have no fucking clue what working directory an application will use in a given situation unless I check - usually involving some arcane gestures and pointing to figure it out. |
| 12:28 | < Tarinaky> | Working directories is only simple and easy if you're on a command line. |
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| 14:11 | < froztbyte> | http://2.asset.soup.io/asset/3039/9010_3a46.gif -- Code Refactoring |
| 14:22 | <@ToxicFrog> | Tarinaky: actually it's really simple. |
| 14:22 | <@ToxicFrog> | Run from the command line? It's the pwd you started the program from. |
| 14:22 | <@ToxicFrog> | Run from the GUI (linux, OSX)? $HOME |
| 14:22 | <@ToxicFrog> | Run from the GUI (windows)? $(dirname $0) |
| 14:28 | < Tarinaky> | What's dirname? |
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| 14:32 | <@TheWatcher> | Tarinaky: POSIX standard function in libgen.h |
| 14:32 | < Tarinaky> | I don't have man on this box. |
| 14:33 | < Tarinaky> | I was hoping you had a 1 line synopsis >.> |
| 14:34 | <@ToxicFrog> | Tarinaky: given a complete path, tells you the directory that path ends in. |
| 14:34 | <@ToxicFrog> | dirname /usr/local/bin/scala => /usr/local/bin/ |
| 14:36 | <@TheWatcher> | Tarinaky: 'g dirname posix' :P |
| 14:38 | < Tarinaky> | TheWatcher: ? |
| 14:38 | <@TheWatcher> | Shortcut in opera for google |
| 14:54 | < celticminstrel> | ...wait what? |
| 14:54 | < celticminstrel> | OSX Finder sets the pwd to $HOME? |
| 14:54 | < celticminstrel> | ^cwd |
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| 14:58 | <@ToxicFrog> | celticminstrel: I thought it did |
| 14:58 | <@ToxicFrog> | Although to be fair it's been a few years since I used OSX |
| 14:59 | < celticminstrel> | Kinda stupid if it does... |
| 15:00 | < celticminstrel> | I seem to remember it setting cwd to / though, which is even stupider. |
| 15:00 | < celticminstrel> | Logical choice would be the Resources directory in the application package, if it's a package, or $(dirname $0) otherwise. |
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| 15:01 | < Noah> | So, after horribly breaking X and Lightdm |
| 15:01 | < Noah> | I had to undo Nvidia's way of installing the driver |
| 15:02 | < Noah> | I ended up adding x pushers ppa to get the latest through jockey-gtk |
| 15:02 | < Noah> | So now that I'm on nvidia's latest driver, I still get tearing due to compositing |
| 15:10 | < Eri> | Maybe stop composting all your bits |
| 15:10 | < Eri> | Stupid hippies |
| 15:34 | < froztbyte> | Noah: you pretty much never want the stock installer |
| 15:34 | < froztbyte> | like, at all, ever |
| 15:35 | < froztbyte> | if the problem/question is "I get X due to Y, using Z", the answer is never "try the official drivers" |
| 15:36 | < froztbyte> | it'll usually be what Eri suggested, and then try things a bit later |
| 15:36 | < froztbyte> | the stock installers just take a broom and stick it up your system's anus |
| 15:40 | | * TheWatcher huhs, never had a problem with the stock nvidia driver installer |
| 15:55 | < Noah> | Well, I've switched to Xfce, so I don't have the tearing issue anymore |
| 16:00 | <@TheWatcher> | Ught, I hate writing documentation, but at least it has the benefit of making it easier to see where I can improve stuff. |
| 16:07 | <@ToxicFrog> | Yum, higher-order functions |
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| 16:14 | < froztbyte> | Noah: I'm quite okay with writing documentation, as long as I do it piecemeal while I make the other things |
| 16:14 | < froztbyte> | whether those things are network configurations or little bits of program |
| 16:14 | < froztbyte> | err, TheWatcher* |
| 16:16 | <@TheWatcher> | Well, I document my code as I go along, but this is higher level docs explaining how to use it all. |
| 16:17 | < froztbyte> | yar, even those |
| 16:17 | < froztbyte> | I take a very iterative approach to documentation though |
| 16:17 | < froztbyte> | in the beginning it'll read "this thing will be used to do X" |
| 16:17 | < froztbyte> | later I'll explain what X is, why it's there, what you shouldn't be doing with $thing, etc |
| 16:18 | < froztbyte> | found it to be the best way of getting lots of content done over time without feeling like I'm burning craploads of time on it |
| 16:18 | <@TheWatcher> | (also, in this case, I'm taking a library of perl modules that've been written and used only in systems I've developed, and having to make it understandable for some graduate students to use, with relatively short notice >.<) |
| 16:19 | < froztbyte> | also it possibly requires a bit of "external" help, which is why I've got vim configs for auto-committing some files if they have certain extensions |
| 16:19 | < froztbyte> | then I can just render out the text to some thing, and place that wherever needed, apply formatting |
| 16:19 | <@TheWatcher> | (worse, said students don't currently know perl ;.;) |
| 16:19 | < froztbyte> | TheWatcher: that's not an entirely bad situation :P |
| 16:20 | <@TheWatcher> | Bah! |
| 16:20 | < froztbyte> | I'm unfortunate enough to know enough perl that I can read and follow it without much effort :( |
| 16:24 | < Noah> | Hmm, need a dock that looks good without compositing |
| 16:25 | < Noah> | And a way to tile windows, since shift dragging and resizing doesn't work like it did in Gnome |
| 16:35 | < Noah> | Hmm, found hotkeys that does something called filling |
| 16:36 | < Noah> | And window snapping to other windows |
| 16:37 | < Noah> | Ooo, and double click fill, I think I like Xfce |
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| 16:51 | < Noah> | Linux is a bartering system, because you trade one problem for another |
| 16:53 | < gnolam> | Welcome to Bartertown. |
| 16:56 | < Noah> | With compositing disabled, fullscreen flash is super laggy |
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| 19:29 | <&McMartin> | 08:52 < gnolam> Welcome to Bartertown. |
| 19:29 | <&McMartin> | Why is there not an email sorting client for the Mozilla suite named Thunderdome |
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| 20:13 | | * Vornucopia fiddles wih project euler, discovers that for continued fractions of sqrt(n) you never end up with a value for b in (a + b*sqrt(c)) / d other than -1 and 1. |
| 20:15 | < Vornucopia> | Makes life easier. |
| 20:47 | <&McMartin> | Oh hey, GNOME 3.4 is out |
| 20:47 | <&McMartin> | "Windows are maximized by default" |
| 20:48 | <&McMartin> | FFS, people |
| 20:48 | <&McMartin> | Desktops |
| 20:48 | <&McMartin> | This is a technology that has served us well since the early 1980s. |
| 20:48 | < Vornucopia> | I think the only windows I don't maximize by default are file manager windows. |
| 20:49 | <&McMartin> | I usually tile two, but the actual recommendation I get form people is "use two monitors!" |
| 20:49 | < Vornucopia> | mmh, that and command prompts actually |
| 20:50 | <&McMartin> | And then I have to consult the flowchart and shoryuken them into next week. |
| 20:50 | <&McMartin> | The flowchart never lies |
| 20:50 | <@jerith> | McMartin: Gnome is flying rockets down the "we decide what your desktop experience should be and you don't get a say in the matter" road. |
| 20:51 | <&McMartin> | jerith: Which is hilarious, because... |
| 20:51 | <@jerith> | Because people don't know what they want and choice is bad. |
| 20:51 | <&McMartin> | "GNOME once appeared to have a promising future on mobile devices, but those days are long past. Efforts to turn GNOME into a mainstream mobile platform have repeatedly failed. Today, use of the conventional upstream GNOME environment is largely confined to a niche audience of technical users." |
| 20:51 | <&McMartin> | Emphasis mine |
| 20:51 | <&McMartin> | To be fair |
| 20:51 | <&McMartin> | People *don't* know what they want, and it's a valid option to hate freedom. |
| 20:51 | <&McMartin> | What isn't valid is to hate freedom while also having no design or user experience sense yourself. |
| 20:52 | <@jerith> | Hating freedom is not valid. |
| 20:52 | <@jerith> | Because people are different. |
| 20:52 | <&McMartin> | From a marketing standpoint, those people aren't worth the effort |
| 20:52 | < Vornucopia> | And yet somehow Apple has one of the largest market caps on the planet~ |
| 20:52 | <@jerith> | I know this because my UI requirement (note: requirements, not preferences) are nonstandard. |
| 20:53 | <&McMartin> | Because if you give them the freedom to do it, 500 times as many of your users will do it wrong and blame you |
| 20:53 | <&McMartin> | jerith: That makes you a niche audience, congrats. |
| 20:53 | <&McMartin> | Stuff that you need to meet requirements is actually an objectively inferior product to much larger groups, and someone aiming for a broad audience can validly decide to ignore you. |
| 20:53 | < Vornucopia> | I should look into tiling wm addins for windows. side-by-side is good but I also want, uh, A b/c and narrow-wide and a few others. |
| 20:54 | <@jerith> | Vornucopia: OS X gives me more freedom to tailor my desktop experience in the directions I need than either Unity or Gnome. |
| 20:55 | <&McMartin> | This is because OS X has people who give a shit about UE and know which things are supposed to be knobs |
| 20:55 | <&McMartin> | The GNOME guys just said "Apple makes usable products! They removed knobs! WE MUST ALSO REMOVE KNOBS. REMOVE ALL THE KNOBS" |
| 20:55 | <&McMartin> | I am using Apple as my example of why hating freedom is a valid option though |
| 20:55 | <@jerith> | McMartin: Most of what I need is stuff like "let me set sane keybindings" and "turn off the fucking workspace change animations, because they flush my mental buffers 10% of the time I change workspaces". |
| 20:56 | <&McMartin> | "sane" |
| 20:56 | <@jerith> | (Apple took bloody forever to address that last one, though.) |
| 20:56 | <&McMartin> | Not to be patronizing, but that's adorable~ |
| 20:56 | <&McMartin> | OK, yes, to be patronizing. |
| 20:57 | <&McMartin> | I know why they want to disable that, but, yes, one shouldn't. |
| 20:57 | <@jerith> | McMartin: By "sane", I mean "not interfering with standard stuff that has been around for two decades". |
| 20:58 | < Vornucopia> | I dislike the, uh, "pan" workspace changes; wipe or fade I wouldn't have a problem with. |
| 20:58 | < celticminstrel> | ...what do you mean by knobs here? |
| 20:58 | <@jerith> | And "turn off the stupid thing you added in the new version that steals the 'give me a terminal window' keybinding I've had forever". |
| 20:58 | <&McMartin> | jerith: Yeah, I'm not convinced that's possible; *some* standard will conflict with every choice. |
| 20:58 | <&McMartin> | That latter is unsolvable in the general case post... post-Windows for Workgroups. |
| 20:58 | < Vornucopia> | celmin: by "knobs" we mean "configurable settings" |
| 20:59 | <&McMartin> | Where the only unused keysetting got stolen for the Secure Attention Sequence. |
| 20:59 | < celticminstrel> | ...ah. |
| 20:59 | <&McMartin> | ("Press Ctrl-Alt-Del to log on") |
| 20:59 | <@jerith> | McMartin: The solution to that is "let me change the default keybindings". |
| 20:59 | <&McMartin> | Yes |
| 20:59 | <&McMartin> | As I said. That's a knob you need to keep |
| 20:59 | <&McMartin> | But it's also one you want to keep somewhat hidden so that random users have reason to believe they will be able to interact with a machine just by seeing what OS it is. |
| 21:00 | <@jerith> | McMartin: Indeed. |
| 21:00 | < Vornucopia> | So for instance on Windows, you have knobs that let you decide how your open applications will appear in the taskbar/dock; on OSX you really don't. |
| 21:00 | <&McMartin> | Or, if you don't give a shit about them, so IT managers can keep a set of keybindings that work for all of their flock. |
| 21:00 | <&McMartin> | Windows currently has the most knobs. I'm not actually sure when we walked into this mirror universe |
| 21:01 | <&McMartin> | (of stock OSes) |
| 21:01 | <&McMartin> | Linux with a hand-compiled WM is All Knob |
| 21:01 | < Vornucopia> | That just sounds dirty. |
| 21:01 | <&McMartin> | Though arguably that is merely One Really Big Knob That Is Hard To Turn. |
| 21:01 | <&McMartin> | Well, people who use things like dwm are kind of knobs, yes. |
| 21:01 | < celticminstrel> | So why on earth would you want windows maximized by default? |
| 21:01 | <&McMartin> | Because that way it looks like a Tablet! |
| 21:01 | <&McMartin> | This is good because, um |
| 21:01 | <&McMartin> | um |
| 21:01 | <&McMartin> | ...um |
| 21:01 | <&McMartin> | ... ... I'll get back to you on this |
| 21:02 | <@Vash> | |
| 21:02 | < celticminstrel> | ...that's a blank line. :( |
| 21:02 | <&McMartin> | This is the trend in all OS design of late and it's really very -_- |
| 21:02 | <&McMartin> | Yes, it is. |
| 21:02 | <&McMartin> | That's a common idiom around these parts for "I am gobsmacked" |
| 21:02 | < Vornucopia> | For most applications, maximized works fine. |
| 21:03 | < celticminstrel> | I usually use an ellipsis for that. |
| 21:03 | < Vornucopia> | I mean, my IDE is maximized, my browser is maximized, my IRC is maximized, Excel and Word are maximized... |
| 21:03 | <@Vash> | I did, but hten people would get annoyed |
| 21:03 | <@Vash> | actually |
| 21:03 | <@Vash> | I think they get annoyed no matter what I use |
| 21:03 | | * Vash looks at vorn |
| 21:03 | < Vornucopia> | It's only when I need to actually keep two or three things in context at once that I want to see more than one window at a time. |
| 21:03 | <@Vash> | we are opposites |
| 21:03 | <@Vash> | I tend to have verything minimizes |
| 21:03 | <@Vash> | minimized* |
| 21:03 | <@Vash> | vorn has everything maximized |
| 21:03 | <@Vash> | -.- |
| 21:04 | <&McMartin> | Text editor and reference material |
| 21:04 | < Vornucopia> | Actually. my IM windows aren't maximized. |
| 21:04 | <@Vash> | Vorn: yes well. that's like one exception. |
| 21:04 | < Vornucopia> | I'm not sure why. Window position as conversation context? |
| 21:04 | <@jerith> | Since I started having decent amounts of screen real estate, I stopped having everything maximised. |
| 21:04 | <@Vash> | I made an exception when playing games sometimes.. or when parents are qebcaming |
| 21:05 | <@Vash> | webcaming |
| 21:05 | <@Vash> | I an spell, really |
| 21:05 | < celticminstrel> | I always play games in windows mode if possible. |
| 21:05 | <@Vash> | ;_; |
| 21:05 | <@Vash> | same |
| 21:05 | <@Vash> | erm, windowed |
| 21:05 | < Vornucopia> | But what I do wish for in windows is virtual desktops anyway: when I do have multiple windows, I want all the context to show up at once. |
| 21:05 | <@jerith> | I play some games fullscreen. Others windowed. |
| 21:06 | <@Vash> | you should've seen it.. wen vorn was playing portal 2 in full screen and tried tabbing away to irc, portal would... um |
| 21:06 | < celticminstrel> | Yeah, typo. >< |
| 21:06 | <@Vash> | well, it just didn't like it |
| 21:06 | <@Vash> | I'm trying to remember if his computer actually ever crashed by doing that |
| 21:06 | <@Vash> | I know it took a long as time all the time |
| 21:06 | < Vornucopia> | Never crashed. |
| 21:07 | <@Vash> | ah, ok |
| 21:07 | < Vornucopia> | It would take a fuckin year to bring itself back from tabbed out though |
| 21:09 | < Vornucopia> | I really should upgrade to win but that involves buying two OSes. |
| 21:09 | < Vornucopia> | er, win7 |
| 21:09 | < Vornucopia> | (this keyboard has some issues, apparently) |
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| 21:10 | <@Vash> | ... buying them is not hte problems |
| 21:10 | <@Vash> | -s |
| 21:10 | <@Vash> | getting hte money to BUY them is the problem |
| 21:10 | < Vornucopia> | Same difference~ |
| 21:10 | <@Vash> | pffft |
| 21:11 | <@Vash> | no it's not |
| 21:11 | <@Vash> | what if we didn't have nets and the closest store to sell that was miles away? |
| 21:11 | <@Vash> | Then what? |
| 21:11 | <@Vash> | =P |
| 21:11 | <@Vash> | 30* |
| 21:12 | <@ToxicFrog> | <celticminstrel> So why on earth would you want windows maximized by default? -- why wouldn't you? I can't remember the last time I ran something that I didn't maximize apart from terminal emulators. |
| 21:12 | < celticminstrel> | I generally don't maximize things... |
| 21:13 | < celticminstrel> | Currently only Chrome and Eclipse. |
| 21:14 | < Vornucopia> | If I had my dad's monitor I probably wouldn't maximize stuff quite as often, because it's nearly 2kpx wide. Then I'd do a 2wide. |
| 21:15 | <@ToxicFrog> | Yeah, at that point I might switch to 2x1 tiling. |
| 21:15 | <@ToxicFrog> | Maybe. |
| 21:15 | < Vornucopia> | I tried IRC on it one time, maximized. It was ridiculous. |
| 21:16 | < gnolam> | "nearly 2kpx" == 1920? |
| 21:16 | < Vornucopia> | Yes. |
| 21:16 | | * gnolam runs 1920x1200. |
| 21:16 | < Vornucopia> | I think that's the resolution on dad's monitor. |
| 21:16 | < Vornucopia> | It's aound there anyway. |
| 21:17 | < Vornucopia> | On the other hand if I had dad's monitor I might put it in portrait mode. |
| 21:17 | < gnolam> | I absolutely refused to lose any vertical resolution when I got rid of the Behemoth. |
| 21:18 | < gnolam> | And I also didn't want to lose any screen area, so I had to go above... cannae remember exactly, but I think it was > 22". |
| 21:18 | | * celticminstrel has 1280x1024 and 1024/768 |
| 21:18 | < Vornucopia> | even 1024 tall is too short nowadays for some things. |
| 21:18 | < gnolam> | And with the additional, looser constraints of "non-crap colors" and "should also work for gaming", there weren't many monitors to choose from. |
| 21:19 | < gnolam> | But yeah. 16:10 1920x1200 is a good fit for 2x1 tiling. |
| 21:19 | < Vornucopia> | Yeah, non-crap colors I think puts me into the $500+ range for modern monitors. If my current CRT dies (it's 14 years old and still going strong) before I get a job, there will be weeping. |
| 21:20 | < gnolam> | (Ugh, TN panels) |
| 21:20 | < celticminstrel> | 1024 is perfectly fine for everything I use... |
| 21:21 | < gnolam> | x1024 is pretty much the minimum usable under Linux, as I found out with my x600 netbook. |
| 21:21 | < Vornucopia> | celmin: I find often that "page-style" webcomics stuff too much shit up top and I need to scroll anyway. |
| 21:21 | < gnolam> | Linux UI designers /love/ minsizes on dialogs. |
| 21:22 | < celticminstrel> | True. |
| 21:23 | < gnolam> | (The same goes for indie game devs, who also set x1024 minimum resolutions for no discernible reason) |
| 21:24 | < Vornucopia> | yeah I don't get that. Honestly? If your game doesn't fit in 640x480 (granted for complex games you may need to do some Work to get that to happen) there's something wrong. |
| 21:27 | <@jerith> | Making stuff resizeable isn't all that easy. |
| 21:28 | < Vornucopia> | Actually I think it might be harder in some cases to make large things work. |
| 21:29 | < Vornucopia> | In most cases, even. I'm doing camera work for a topdown game lately and the hardest bit is making it work when the zone is smaller than the screen. |
| 21:31 | <@ToxicFrog> | Vornucopia: 640x480? Really? |
| 21:31 | <@ToxicFrog> | Even netbooks can do 800x600 these days, everything else does 1024x768 minimum. |
| 21:31 | < Vornucopia> | I might be a little on the small side. 800x600 anyway. |
| 21:31 | <@ToxicFrog> | And depending on the game, fitting all the UI into 640x480 and not having it be confusing or ugly can be a right bitch. |
| 21:32 | < Vornucopia> | Heh. Didn't TA fit all its stuff in 640x480? |
| 21:32 | <@jerith> | 800x600 doesn't fit into a netbook screen with window decorations and such. |
| 21:33 | <@ToxicFrog> | Barely. It's a lot nicer at 1280x800 or even 1680x1050 with extended build menus and the ability to have the build and command menus on screen at the same time. |
| 21:33 | < Vornucopia> | I never managed to get extended build menus to work right. |
| 21:33 | < Vornucopia> | Stuff always overlapped all weird. |
| 21:33 | < gnolam> | Not with window decorations, but you should bloody well be able to play the game fullscreen at x600. |
| 21:33 | <@jerith> | gnolam: Sure. |
| 21:33 | <@ToxicFrog> | At 640x480 you have to page through a dozen build menu panels with six items on them each, and then there's a separate button to toggle between build menus and unit orders. |
| 21:33 | <@jerith> | But then you have to implement fullscreen. |
| 21:34 | <@ToxicFrog> | ...which you get for free in just about any environment you'd actually be writing a game in, so I'm not sure what your point is. |
| 21:34 | <@jerith> | ToxicFrog: Doing fullscreen *right* is hard. |
| 21:34 | < gnolam> | ... have to implement fullscreen? That tends to be setting a single flag. :P |
| 21:34 | <@jerith> | (I know this because so much stuff gets it wrong.) |
| 21:35 | <@ToxicFrog> | jerith: how hard is it do a single mode switch from windowed to fullscreen and back again? |
| 21:35 | <@jerith> | Like forcing a resolution change, which resizes all the open windows in not-fullscreen. |
| 21:35 | <@ToxicFrog> | I mean, ok, yeah, I've only interacted with this at the SDL level where it's a single function call, so it's possible that there's some kind of incredibly heinous openGL fuckery going on under the hood |
| 21:35 | < Vornucopia> | Seeing how often it's done wrong? Hard. |
| 21:36 | <@ToxicFrog> | er what |
| 21:36 | <@ToxicFrog> | forcing a resolution change is rather the point if I have selected a resolution other than desktop resolution |
| 21:36 | <@ToxicFrog> | Seriously, give me an example of a game that does fullscreen "wrong" |
| 21:37 | <@ToxicFrog> | Because at this point I don't even understand what you mean by that |
| 21:37 | <@jerith> | ToxicFrog: Half the entires in a given pyweek. |
| 21:37 | < Vornucopia> | Programs that use fullscreen often use non-native resolutions, and will screw that up, making maximized windows suddenly "maximized" at the smaller resolution. They'll forget to turn off screen savers, and forget to turn them back on. |
| 21:39 | <@ToxicFrog> | jerith: none of which I have ever played. |
| 21:39 | <@jerith> | Programs that default to fullscreen and then don't easily let you switch out until everything's loaded. |
| 21:40 | <@ToxicFrog> | Vornucopia: isn't screwing up maximized windows an issue with the WM, not the program? |
| 21:40 | < celticminstrel> | That sort of thing is part of why I don't generally go fullscreen. |
| 21:40 | < Vornucopia> | TF: I'm not sure how it happens, but some games do it to Windows. |
| 21:40 | <@jerith> | ToxicFrog: Possibly, but the WM will say "if you don't want that to happen, don't force a resolution change". |
| 21:41 | <@ToxicFrog> | jerith: ok, but the problem there is the WM being shit; it is entirely reasonable to want to run a game, fullscreen, at a resolution other than what your desktop is using |
| 21:41 | <@jerith> | How do you handle fullscreen with multiple displays? |
| 21:41 | <@ToxicFrog> | So "do fullscreen at native or not at all" isn't really an answer |
| 21:41 | <@jerith> | ToxicFrog: Sure. |
| 21:41 | < Vornucopia> | you need to make sure you're not trying to render while tabbed away; that you're properly passing on stuff like task-switching commands (especially a problem on mac), that you're enabling and disabling things that need to be enabled and disabled as you're tabbed in and out. |
| 21:41 | <@ToxicFrog> | Unless you only play recently-released games on a $2500 cutting edge behemoth. |
| 21:42 | <@ToxicFrog> | Vornucopia: those are issues in windowed mode as well, though. |
| 21:42 | < Vornucopia> | You need to make sure you don't eat the desktop (I've had this happen) |
| 21:43 | < Vornucopia> | There's lots and lots of ways to get it wrong. I think the maximize problem is actually people changing resolution the wrong way. |
| 21:43 | < celticminstrel> | OSX Lion does not handle fullscreen with multiple displays. :( |
| 21:43 | < Vornucopia> | TF: well, fullscreen stuff has it worse in a lot of ways. |
| 21:43 | < celticminstrel> | This is why I have decided not to use Lion fullscreen mode. |
| 21:43 | < celticminstrel> | It renders the additional display useless. |
| 21:43 | < celticminstrel> | Just filling it with a random background pattern. |
| 21:44 | <@jerith> | celticminstrel: That's not too different from what it does on Snow Leopard. |
| 21:44 | <@jerith> | Except it's sometime black and sometimes a non-interactive view of whatever was there before. |
| 21:45 | < celticminstrel> | On Windows, fullscreen mode seems to shift things strangely onto the second display. |
| 21:45 | < celticminstrel> | But Lion doesn't render the second display useless in Word's fullscreen view. |
| 21:45 | <@ToxicFrog> | Probably the "best" way is borderless windowed mode at native resolution. |
| 21:46 | <@ToxicFrog> | If the host system will let you do that. |
| 21:46 | <@ToxicFrog> | And can run the game at native. |
| 21:46 | <@jerith> | ToxicFrog: Which many will not. |
| 21:46 | <@ToxicFrog> | Yes, exactly. |
| 21:46 | <@jerith> | Fullscreen native is fine, usually. |
| 21:47 | <@jerith> | Fullscreen non-native often sucks in a variety of ways, even if done properly. |
| 21:48 | <@jerith> | (Text rendering on LCDs, for example.) |
| 21:50 | <@ToxicFrog> | Fullscreen non-native is often the only option, though, for very new games or very old ones. |
| 21:51 | <@jerith> | ToxicFrog: Sure. |
| 21:52 | < Vornucopia> | Time to go. |
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| 22:16 | | * McMartin reads backscroll |
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| 22:16 | <&McMartin> | OpenGL does in fact do some fuckery behind the screens when going into and out of fullscreen; Direct3D programs in paticular are infamous for failing to reload the texture cache after tabbing back in, which can result in null pointer dereferences. |
| 22:17 | <&McMartin> | Oneo f the few things Vista unequivocally did better than WinXP was better handling of WM-related things; Astatine has been able to Alt-tab into and out of basically everything without incident since 2009. |
| 22:17 | < gnolam> | The programmer has to handle that explicitly in DirectX. OpenGL guarantees that you'll get all your textures back. |
| 22:18 | <&McMartin> | Yeah |
| 22:18 | <&McMartin> | Well. Direct3D> |
| 22:19 | <&McMartin> | AIUI DirectDraw has always been fine. |
| 22:19 | <&McMartin> | Since it's a double-buffered framebuffer that invalidates at well-defined points anyway. |
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| 23:29 | <@TheWatcher> | Signs it might be time to stop writing documentation for a bit, #29: you read the last paragraph of text you wrote and it makes no sense whatsoever |
| 23:30 | <@jerith> | TheWatcher: I should generally stop before I start, it seems.~ |
| 23:30 | <@TheWatcher> | pft |
| 23:46 | < gnolam> | That's usually a sign that you're reading the reference material.~ |
| 23:46 | | You're now known as TheWatcher[T-2] |
| 23:55 | | You're now known as TheWatcher[zZzZ] |
| --- Log closed Tue Apr 03 00:00:06 2012 |