| --- Log opened Mon Mar 12 00:00:02 2012 |
| 01:05 | <@ToxicFrog> | Oh dammit, found a bug. |
| 01:13 | | You're now known as TheWatcher[T-2] |
| 01:16 | | RichyB [MyCatVerbs@Nightstar-86656b6c.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 121 seconds] |
| 01:19 | | You're now known as TheWatcher[zZzZ] |
| 01:29 | | mastermin [stuff@Nightstar-86e882b8.vs.shawcable.net] has joined #code |
| 01:33 | | Rhamphoryncus [rhamph@Nightstar-5697f7e2.abhsia.telus.net] has joined #code |
| 01:37 | <@ToxicFrog> | ...huh. Apparently Orias doesn't have enough memory to run the kessler daemon. |
| 01:37 | <@ToxicFrog> | That strikes me as unlikely. |
| 01:41 | < mastermin> | must go! asus g74sx gaming laptop and macbook pro 15" laptop. price 750 each. message if interested or email mikeeh01@gmail.com |
| 01:41 | | mastermin [stuff@Nightstar-86e882b8.vs.shawcable.net] has quit [Killed (Vornicus (No))] |
| 02:03 | | Kindamoody[zZz] is now known as Kindamoody |
| 02:14 | < Eri> | Didn't we have that dumbass in here once before? |
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| 02:29 | < maoranma> | Dunno? |
| 02:29 | < maoranma> | .type fire rock |
| 02:29 | < Noah{OYOYO}> | For ['fire', 'rock']: {'ice': 0.5, 'normal': 0.5, 'fire': 0.25, 'flying': 0.5, 'fighting': 2.0, 'water': 4.0, 'poison': 0.5, 'rock': 2.0, 'bug': 0.5, 'ground': 4.0} |
| 02:29 | < celticminstrel> | ..... |
| 02:30 | < maoranma> | Thinking about how I want the output to look. |
| 02:30 | < celticminstrel> | What is it? |
| 02:30 | < maoranma> | Oh |
| 02:30 | < maoranma> | It's a type effectiveness calculator for Pokemon |
| 02:30 | < celticminstrel> | Oh. |
| 02:30 | < maoranma> | I wrote it using python, pyyaml, and oyoyo |
| 02:31 | <&Derakon> | "; ".join(["%s: %s" % item for item in foo.iteritems()]) |
| 02:32 | < maoranma> | Lol? |
| 02:32 | <&Derakon> | Turns a dictionary into a semicolon-delimited list of "key: value". |
| 02:32 | < maoranma> | Oh, right |
| 02:36 | < maoranma> | I was thinking like having all the mods followed by all the types affected, so for example above, I'd like to see... For FIRE/ROCK: (25%: FIRE) (50%: ICE, NORMAL, FLYING, POISON, BUG) (200%: FIGHTING, ROCK) (400%: WATER, GROUND) |
| 02:37 | < maoranma> | To minimize the repeating of text |
| 02:37 | <&Derakon> | Ah. |
| 02:37 | <&Derakon> | Then construct a mapping of damage multipliers to lists of types those multipliers apply to. |
| 02:38 | <&Derakon> | Then do something like "; ".join(["%s\%: %s" % (mult, sorted(values)) for (mult, values) in foo.iteritems()]) |
| 02:38 | < maoranma> | That's what the yaml file looks like, and it should be an easy change in the getEffects function, then I can format it pretty inside the bots code |
| 02:39 | < maoranma> | I'm having the bot code handle all the IO from IRC, with the functions only passing types of data, so I can use it elsewhere if I want |
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| 03:07 | < maoranma> | Odd, getting a key error on a key check |
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| 03:34 | < maoranma> | hokay |
| 03:35 | < maoranma> | .type fire electric |
| 03:35 | < Noah{OYOYO}> | For ['fire', 'electric']: {0.25: ['steel'], 0.5: ['electric', 'fire', 'flying', 'ice', 'grass', 'bug'], 2.0: ['water', 'rock'], 4.0: ['ground']} |
| 03:35 | < maoranma> | Now it does by mod |
| 03:35 | <~Vornicus> | do ' '.join(sorted(values)) instead of just values |
| 03:36 | <&Derakon> | Ah yeah, good call. |
| 03:37 | < maoranma> | Yup, that's going into the output code in the bot, just needed the type lookup file to give me data the way I'd perfer to see it |
| 03:37 | < maoranma> | brb |
| 03:43 | < maoranma> | .type |
| 03:43 | < Noah{OYOYO}> | Sorry maoranma!maoranma@Nightstar-18ea8aaa.pools.spcsdns.net, please enter one or two types for .type, thank you. |
| 03:43 | < maoranma> | Ah yea |
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| 03:54 | < maoranma> | .type |
| 03:54 | < Noah{OYOYO}> | Sorry maoranma, please enter one or two types for .type, thank you. |
| 03:54 | < maoranma> | Okay, that's better |
| 03:54 | < maoranma> | .type fire rock |
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| 04:31 | < maoranma> | .type ice grass |
| 04:31 | < Noah{OYOYO}> | For ice/grass: 50%: ['electric', 'grass', 'ground', 'water']; 200%: ['bug', 'fighting', 'flying', 'poison', 'rock', 'steel']; 400%: ['fire'] |
| 04:32 | < maoranma> | Had to kick it, a lot |
| 04:32 | < maoranma> | '; '.join(['{0:.0%}: {1}'.format(mod, sorted(types)) for (mod,types) in sorted(effects.iteritems())]) |
| 04:32 | < maoranma> | Had to use .format since I couldn't get the damn escape to work |
| 04:33 | < maoranma> | Now to ditch the list brackets and quotes. |
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| 04:39 | < maoranma> | .type fire ground |
| 04:39 | < Noah{OYOYO}> | For fire/ground: (0%: electric) (50%: bug, fire, poison, steel) (200%: ground) (400%: water) |
| 04:39 | < maoranma> | Tada. |
| 04:40 | < maoranma> | I think I'll leave it lower case, it's easier to look at that way |
| 04:42 | <&Derakon> | I never really got the JRPG fetish for putting things in allcaps. |
| 04:42 | <&Derakon> | I mean, sure, for the early games where space was at a premium. |
| 04:43 | <&Derakon> | But post-NES/GB, there's no excuse for not using proper capitalization. |
| 04:44 | < maoranma> | easier to read on a pixelated screen I guess? |
| 04:44 | <&Derakon> | Mm, I think that dubious. |
| 04:45 | <&Derakon> | But I haven't done any tests. |
| 04:45 | < maoranma> | And probably partitally from the lack of capitals in the japanese language |
| 04:45 | <&McMartin> | ^--- |
| 04:45 | <&McMartin> | If you're memory mapping your translation that's gonna be part of it |
| 04:46 | < maoranma> | It's less of an issue now, since game systems now support lots of language fonts like regular computers, but old habits die with high values of density. |
| 04:47 | < maoranma> | Default pokemons names are capitals except in black and white, where they're FINALLY lowercase |
| 04:48 | < maoranma> | Which I'm sure was an oversight they'll "correct" in black and white 2, lol |
| 04:49 | <~Vornicus> | Game systems have long been capable of handling many different languages and fonts; it's just that nearly all the time you can't have more than a few fonts loaded anyway |
| 04:50 | < maoranma> | Well, true, for older systems anyway |
| 04:50 | < Namegduf> | I think it has become almost a stylistic thing |
| 04:50 | < Namegduf> | I see it in games for consoles where the restriction never made sense. |
| 04:50 | <~Vornicus> | And anyway, it's a fucking video game |
| 04:50 | < Namegduf> | Like Zelda games use colours for items. |
| 04:50 | < Namegduf> | Or did on the N64 anyway. |
| 04:50 | | * maoranma tosses Vornicus out a window |
| 04:50 | <~Vornicus> | You only need a few fonts |
| 04:51 | <~Vornicus> | (in fact I'm hard pressed to name any games that use more than 3, beyond the title font. |
| 04:51 | < maoranma> | Well, item coloring in zelda specified the type of item, such as quest items, usable items...though I think in some the coloring was fairly random, lol |
| 04:52 | <&Derakon> | No, the coloring specifies which words you're supposed to emphasize, to ensure that the dialog sounds every bit as stupid as it is when you read it~ |
| 04:52 | < Namegduf> | Capitals-for-emphasis are definitely a thing. |
| 04:53 | < maoranma> | Do you read the colors aloud when you do it? "Link found a IN GREEN COLORING RUPEE!" *da-da-daaaa~* |
| 04:53 | <~Vornicus> | http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RainbowSpeak |
| 04:54 | <&Derakon> | No, you just say "Link found a...rupee!" |
| 04:54 | < maoranma> | Ahh, BoF2 |
| 04:54 | <&Derakon> | ...I'm amazed that the intro paragraph on that article doesn't mention the LoZ1 opening scroll. |
| 04:55 | < maoranma> | LoZ1 wasn't an offended though, was it? |
| 04:55 | <&Derakon> | http://derakon.dyndns.org/~chriswei/temp2/rainbowspeak.png |
| 04:56 | <&Derakon> | Specifically in the bit where it mentions the origination of the trope. |
| 04:56 | < maoranma> | Oh right, haha |
| 04:56 | <&Derakon> | Because Zelda came out in '86, way before any of the cited examples. |
| 05:00 | < maoranma> | All in favor of adding Rainbow Speak to my bot say Aye. |
| 05:01 | <~Vornicus> | Nay |
| 05:01 | < maoranma> | haha |
| 05:01 | <&Derakon> | I will ban it. |
| 05:01 | < maoranma> | Send those tropers to Aardwolf mud, that place BLEEDS color |
| 05:04 | < maoranma> | I wouldn't ever do an IRC bot with color, since we lack universal ansi color support |
| 05:05 | < maoranma> | But when we do, it's bold flashing black on red for you Derakon |
| 05:05 | <&Derakon> | No worries, so long as I have access to the banhammer. |
| 05:06 | < maoranma> | Ah, flashing text, that takes me back to the days of my first geocities site. |
| 05:06 | < maoranma> | Oh, an iframes! Love those things |
| 05:07 | <&McMartin> | https://hkn.eecs.berkeley.edu/~mcmartin/stack.html |
| 05:07 | <&McMartin> | SUBMIT TO YOUR FRAMESET-BASED INDEPENDENTLY SCROLLED OVERLORDS |
| 05:09 | < maoranma> | what the hell |
| 05:09 | < maoranma> | Is... that a list of your reviews of games? |
| 05:09 | <&McMartin> | More or less. |
| 05:09 | <@ToxicFrog> | Yes. |
| 05:09 | <&McMartin> | I noticed my backlog was too long so I started keeping a list and writing them up to stop from buying more. |
| 05:09 | <&McMartin> | It's been going for... I guess about a year and a half now. |
| 05:09 | < maoranma> | And yes, I did notice the Gratuitous Space Battles as a screensaver |
| 05:10 | < maoranma> | Woo, Picross! |
| 05:10 | <&McMartin> | I've been meaning to put it into some kind of WP-y sort of thing, but there are so many ways I'd want to index it that it might have to be crafted as a standalone webapp. =/ |
| 05:11 | < maoranma> | Your use of bold amuses me |
| 05:12 | <&McMartin> | That's the "here is the one-sentence takeaway" |
| 05:12 | < maoranma> | ..."the game itself is also an opaque collection of aggravations that were antiquated even at time of publication. The plot"... |
| 05:13 | < maoranma> | One-sentence takeaway huh |
| 05:13 | <&McMartin> | I tried to also have it contain some content |
| 05:14 | <&McMartin> | My first cut for Sonic Generations had the boldface sentence simply be "Apology accepted, Sega." |
| 05:14 | < maoranma> | Do you play Magic: the Gathering outside of Duels? |
| 05:14 | <&McMartin> | I played Shandalar back in the day, and used to help test pilot decks for friends who competed back in the days of Mana Burn and Interrupts, but I've never owned a card. |
| 05:15 | < maoranma> | Kay, because "There isn't a whole lot to say about this: this is a licensed simulation of Magic: The Gathering play, somewhat stripped down." is mildly inaccurate. It's VASTLY stripped down. |
| 05:15 | < maoranma> | I love playing M:tG, but DotP bored the fucking hell out of me |
| 05:16 | <&McMartin> | I believe I distinguished in that between deckbuilding and piloting and noted that the game was solely about the latter, right? |
| 05:16 | < maoranma> | Luckily, there's MtG Online, which replicates the actual game |
| 05:17 | <&McMartin> | Including all the reasons I never touched the franchise personally~ |
| 05:17 | < maoranma> | Yea, it's more like a shin-kicking festival between the Planeswalkers |
| 05:17 | < maoranma> | If it had a fully written and narrated story, I could see paying for it |
| 05:18 | < maoranma> | But, as is, it's like a paid tutor to the basics of MtG |
| 05:18 | <&McMartin> | I have this half-formed idea that DotP was an attempt to force-simulate low-level play and to eradicate by design all of the "degenerate into three or four abusive decks that are the only viable templates" |
| 05:18 | <&McMartin> | that forms the actual core of the real game. |
| 05:18 | <&McMartin> | Like they tried to design one game, found they had in fact designed an entirely different game which was hugely profitable... |
| 05:19 | < maoranma> | You are not incorrect, on the WotC blog for MtG, they precisely stated just that |
| 05:19 | <&McMartin> | ... went with that, and figured they might as well release the game they *thought* they had been designing off on the side. |
| 05:20 | < maoranma> | that said, players are pretty good about making up new ways of playing, see Elder Dragon Highlander (now an official ruleset called Commander) |
| 05:20 | <&McMartin> | It turns out that that game isn't as good overall, but it's also closer to what I was looking for at the time; something low-key and requiring only moderate tactical work. |
| 05:20 | <&McMartin> | (Note the games on either side of it, after all >_>) |
| 05:22 | < maoranma> | Oh, and the "metagame" in MtG can be fun, when you find something new that works and introduce it at a competition |
| 05:22 | | Derakon is now known as Derakon[AFK] |
| 05:22 | < maoranma> | And eat someone's cookiecutter crap the found online |
| 05:23 | <&McMartin> | As a rule, you are not tha tperson. |
| 05:23 | <&McMartin> | *that person |
| 05:23 | <&McMartin> | If you're in competitive play, 90% of the time you'll be using a personally tuned version of somebody else's paradigm change. |
| 05:24 | < maoranma> | Usually |
| 05:24 | <&McMartin> | And the question will be how well you designed your sideboard to handle the people who were intending to crush the flavor of the month. |
| 05:24 | <&McMartin> | (This was the situation in which I was playing with real cards - I'd get a counterdeck and they'd test their sideboards against my play of it) |
| 05:24 | < maoranma> | Also true. |
| 05:25 | < maoranma> | That's why I like the variant rules, and draft play |
| 05:25 | <~Vornicus> | (and 99% of the rest of the time you're using a deck that doesn't actually work.) |
| 05:25 | <&McMartin> | This also means that it was DotP that introduced me to the concept of "Aggro decks", which were not really a thing back in the day |
| 05:25 | < maoranma> | How far back in the day are we talking? |
| 05:25 | <&McMartin> | 1997 |
| 05:26 | <~Vornicus> | aggro decks? |
| 05:26 | < maoranma> | Because weenie decks have been a thing as far as I can remember...like 3rd edition |
| 05:26 | <&McMartin> | Yes |
| 05:26 | <&McMartin> | But weenie decks were weenie decks |
| 05:26 | <&McMartin> | Burn decks were burn decks |
| 05:26 | < maoranma> | Vornicus: Lots of creatures, attack every turn |
| 05:26 | <&McMartin> | And they were all treated as theoretically separate things. |
| 05:27 | <&McMartin> | Aggro is "The way this deck wins is by dealing damage to the opponent" |
| 05:27 | <&McMartin> | Note that "dealing damage" is not the same thing as "causes the opponent to lose life" |
| 05:27 | <&McMartin> | And specifically, you are the aggro player if your win strategy is "my net damage inflicted per turn curve is faster than yours" |
| 05:27 | < maoranma> | Yes, semantically similar, but very different mechanics wise |
| 05:28 | <&McMartin> | There was definitely no idea of the RPS of aggro/control/combo |
| 05:28 | <&McMartin> | I wasn't introduced to that concept until 2011. |
| 05:28 | < maoranma> | there's a chart somewhere, that shows the "other" mana circle |
| 05:29 | < maoranma> | Ah, here it is |
| 05:29 | <&McMartin> | But Aggro decks will have too many sources of damage for a control deck to, well, control; combo decks will have a damage curve that is basically infinite once it goes off, as long as they can survive the initial aggro to get to it; control disrupts the combo and wins in its own time. |
| 05:29 | < maoranma> | the metagame clock |
| 05:29 | < maoranma> | http://wtftcg.files.wordpress.com/2011/05/metagame-clock.gif |
| 05:29 | <&McMartin> | Looks good to me. |
| 05:29 | <&McMartin> | In 1997 I had a strong preference for control/lockdown. |
| 05:29 | <&McMartin> | In the modern era it looks like I would lean towards Aggro-Control. |
| 05:30 | < maoranma> | Then in 1997, I hated you |
| 05:30 | <&McMartin> | YEs |
| 05:30 | < maoranma> | Beacuse I was Combo Johnny |
| 05:30 | <&McMartin> | I recognized that this was in fact The Griefer's Deck and shifting game design away from such things is a marked improvement. |
| 05:30 | <&McMartin> | You still probably hated me~ |
| 05:30 | <&McMartin> | But now you'd hate me for less time~ |
| 05:30 | <&McMartin> | As opposed to for 35+ minutes~ |
| 05:30 | < maoranma> | lol |
| 05:31 | < maoranma> | Yea, that would be true, because I never conceed |
| 05:31 | < maoranma> | I'm also the "let's play it out" guy |
| 05:32 | <&McMartin> | Magic and Fighting Games are both things I mostly admire the theorycraft on from a safe distance |
| 05:32 | < maoranma> | And no one likes that guy, usually because they're also the "judge!" guy, trying to get the other guy forfeited for rules violations |
| 05:33 | < maoranma> | If by safe distance, you mean a 4in thick lead bunker, then sure |
| 05:33 | < maoranma> | In fighting games it's probably a little less prounounced |
| 05:34 | <&McMartin> | Well, there, the barrier is that I don't have 1/60sec reaction times |
| 05:34 | <&McMartin> | I can play bullet hells, but not fighting games, at what I'd call tolerable levels of proficiency. |
| 05:34 | < maoranma> | But I have studied it though, primarily with okizeme |
| 05:34 | <&McMartin> | But the design work that goes into making a good fighting game is very interesting |
| 05:34 | <&McMartin> | Making sure that combos exist and only the ones you want to exist exist. |
| 05:34 | < maoranma> | I can't play fighting games, because I like keeping my friends, and being tolerated at the arcade |
| 05:36 | < maoranma> | Same goes with puzzle games, my best friend refuses to play tetris with me :\ |
| 05:36 | < maoranma> | Or magical drop, or puyo puyo, or super puzzle figheter 2 turbo... |
| 05:39 | <&McMartin> | Get into challenge-based SP games, make videos >_> |
| 05:40 | < maoranma> | I would, but fraps runs like crap on my lappy |
| 05:41 | <~Vornicus> | crappy frappy? |
| 05:41 | < maoranma> | happy tappy rap tap a do |
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| 05:45 | <&McMartin> | maoranma: Is this because you're good at skill-gate moves in fighting games, or because you're actually at a reasonably competitive level of play? |
| 05:49 | < maoranma> | The later I guess. I practice with different characters and opponents to learn openings, speeds, etc, so I know what to resonably expect from a player/character combo |
| 05:50 | < maoranma> | But when I'm lazy, I use good oki characters |
| 05:52 | | * McMartin had to look up Okizeme |
| 05:52 | <&McMartin> | I'm pretty sure okizeme counts as a skill-gate |
| 05:52 | <&McMartin> | Since if they can't figure out how to deal with you on your back, they lose, full stop |
| 05:52 | <&McMartin> | (I may be abusing terminology here?) |
| 05:53 | < maoranma> | Well, it's about keeping them on their back |
| 05:53 | < maoranma> | Ie, they can't win if they can't control their character |
| 05:53 | <&McMartin> | Well |
| 05:53 | <&McMartin> | Unless you're playing a game with 100% combos, they *can* control their character. |
| 05:53 | <&McMartin> | Somewhere in your attack string is a point that they can stop you. |
| 05:54 | <&McMartin> | Or they can tech out of a throw or recover from a knockdown. |
| 05:54 | < maoranma> | Well, like in Tekken, the animation is longer than for some characters to start a new combo |
| 05:54 | <&McMartin> | Sure |
| 05:54 | < maoranma> | And yes, they can tech out of it |
| 05:54 | < maoranma> | But that's where your other skills come in, learning to punish |
| 05:54 | <&McMartin> | In Tekken or SC they can also just pillbug =P |
| 05:55 | < maoranma> | You mean duck-block? |
| 05:56 | <&McMartin> | No, I mean, force you to play a guessing game for low attacks while they're down by choosing between "recover backwards" and "recover sideways" |
| 05:57 | < maoranma> | Oh, heh, yea |
| 05:57 | <&McMartin> | That trick doesn't work in SF, obvs |
| 05:59 | <&McMartin> | ("pillbug" since the animation for "recover sideways" always reminded me of them rolling around) |
| 06:00 | < maoranma> | There are tech traps for dealing with things though |
| 06:06 | <&McMartin> | Sure |
| 06:06 | <&McMartin> | Soul Calibur seems to have lost the plot around 3 or so but my understanding is that Tekken has been machined to micron precision |
| 06:07 | < maoranma> | It's all part of competitive play, learning the ins and outs of everything, to have a well rounded toolset |
| 06:08 | < maoranma> | Yea, Tekken is still the flagship game for competitive fighting game play |
| 06:08 | < maoranma> | afaiaa |
| 06:11 | < maoranma> | I love reading on stackoverflow, as people try to decide what is considered "pythonic" |
| 06:13 | <&McMartin> | Quick, run youtube clips of the UNMUTUAL riots from The Prisoner >_> |
| 06:16 | < maoranma> | I wonder how hard it would be to start programming for Android. |
| 06:17 | <&McMartin> | I managed to write a simple animation app for it before I figured out how to change my damned ringtone |
| 06:20 | | Stalker [Z@2C3C9C.B2A300.F245DE.859909] has quit [Ping timeout: 121 seconds] |
| 06:25 | < maoranma> | Is it pythonic to smother your snoring wife? |
| 06:51 | < maoranma> | Seems like android dev has a lot to do with xml for layout, hehe |
| 06:51 | <@jerith> | Yup. |
| 06:52 | | * jerith hasn't done any Android dev in ages. |
| 06:52 | <@jerith> | I kept getting Java all over me. |
| 06:53 | <@jerith> | McMartin: I still have your app on my phone. :-) |
| 06:53 | < maoranma> | McMartin be spahin' on you |
| 06:54 | <@jerith> | No, but he's making hypnotic patterns at me... |
| 07:00 | | Syloqs-AFH [Syloq@NetworkAdministrator.Nightstar.Net] has quit [Connection closed] |
| 07:05 | < Eri> | Hmm. That seems like a glaringly obvious thing that should have been caught during testing. |
| 07:06 | < Eri> | Complete all the units for a given level in Rosetta Stone. Try to go back to that level, and the program locks up |
| 07:06 | | Stalker [Z@Nightstar-3602cf5a.cust.comxnet.dk] has joined #code |
| 07:06 | < Eri> | The only conclusion I can come up with is that they never expected anyone to actually get this far |
| 07:12 | < maoranma> | I've found their software to often be buggier than an ant colony |
| 07:48 | < maoranma> | http://i.imgur.com/MbHp6.jpg - Well, don't preceed anything you say with "Fact" |
| 07:52 | <&McMartin> | Eri: The language training software? |
| 07:55 | < maoranma> | pretty sure |
| 07:56 | < Tarinaky> | Morning. |
| 07:56 | | * Tarinaky yawns. |
| 07:56 | | * McMartin heads to bed |
| 07:56 | < maoranma> | morn |
| 07:57 | < Tarinaky> | Tempted to climb back into bed. |
| 07:57 | < Tarinaky> | Even though I know I need to go to lab this morning. |
| 07:57 | | * Tarinaky sighs. |
| 07:57 | < Tarinaky> | Even more learning how to suck eggs with Oscilloscopes. :/// |
| 07:58 | < maoranma> | Play tetris with it instead |
| 07:58 | < Tarinaky> | Then again, I should get dressed and go in to do my maths work before the deadline tomorrow... |
| 08:09 | < ShellNinja> | When in doubt, press the auto-callibrate button! |
| 08:12 | < Tarinaky> | They're not even CROs. |
| 08:13 | < Tarinaky> | They have the picoscopes plugged in and set up. |
| 08:13 | < Tarinaky> | Half the challenge with picoscopes is remembering where everything goes and remembering the ground the thing. |
| 08:14 | < Tarinaky> | All we have to do is launch the program and pick the right stuff from the right drop down boxes :/ |
| 08:14 | < Tarinaky> | *to ground the thing |
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| 08:35 | | You're now known as TheWatcher |
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| 11:10 | | * TheWatcher eyes this document recommending 64k hashing iterations on salted passwords |
| 11:16 | <@jerith> | There are several cryptographically secure password hashing functions available. |
| 11:16 | <@jerith> | Most of them available in "crypt". |
| 11:21 | <@TheWatcher> | a) perl. b) A quick look through Crypt:: modules seems to indicate that, of the ones that do anything like what I need, none appear to do more than one hash iteration. |
| 11:25 | <@jerith> | bcrypt? |
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| 11:33 | <@TheWatcher> | By that I assume you mean Crypt::Eksblowfish::Bcrypt::bcrypt() ? |
| 11:33 | | * TheWatcher goes grab the source to see exactly what that two-digit "cost" argument actually is |
| 11:34 | <@jerith> | I think it's a parameter to make it slower to calculate the hash. |
| 11:34 | <@jerith> | (By adding more iterations or whatever.) |
| 11:35 | <@jerith> | So you can increment it when hardware gets faster and make brute-force attacks take longer. |
| 11:35 | <@jerith> | Or something. |
| 11:35 | <@TheWatcher> | I know what the idea is, I want to know exactly what it is it's doing |
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| 11:43 | <@TheWatcher> | Ah, that's what it's doing. It uses the cost as the number of places to left shift 1, using the result as the number of times to merge the key or salt into the key schedule, and then encrypting. |
| 11:44 | <@TheWatcher> | Yeah, this'll probably do what I need. |
| 11:45 | < Tarinaky> | Sup all. |
| 11:46 | <@TheWatcher> | Thanks jerith. |
| 11:47 | <@jerith> | TheWatcher: Happy to help. :-) |
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| 13:33 | <@TheWatcher> | Blegh. Running this with cost = 16 takes six and a half seconds. Which isn't /horrible/, but speeding up logins was part of what this whole process was about. Blegh |
| 13:35 | | * TheWatcher goes for 14, at 1.66 seconds a time, lets it be configurable though for the future. |
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| 15:15 | | * TheWatcher eyes this |
| 15:15 | <@TheWatcher> | Not a freudian slip at all |
| 15:16 | | * TheWatcher corrects it so it doesn't read "Unable to execute luser ookup query: " |
| 15:19 | < RichyB> | Heheh, silly luser ooked up. :) |
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| 15:53 | <@jerith> | < Lithium> How do you generate a random string? Put a first year CS student in front of VIM and tell him to save and exit. |
| 15:56 | <@TheWatcher> | pfffft. |
| 15:56 | <@TheWatcher> | So very true ¬¬ |
| 15:56 | <@jerith> | That solutions doesn't scale, though. |
| 15:57 | < RichyB> | Better than you'd expect, thanks to the editor wars. |
| 15:58 | < RichyB> | You've go vi, nano, pico, emacs, joe, jed... |
| 15:58 | < RichyB> | There are more ncurses terminal editors for Unix than warts on the arses of most people. |
| 15:58 | <@jerith> | RichyB: But you run out of students if you want to generate several per second or something. |
| 16:00 | < maoranma> | good way to see a RNG though |
| 16:02 | < maoranma> | seed* |
| 16:10 | < Tarinaky> | Except every string will start with some permutations of quit and ^C |
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| 16:21 | < RichyB> | Tarinaky, in which case it'll actually start "t^C" |
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| 16:21 | < RichyB> | Oh, my bad. It'll start "t". |
| 16:22 | < RichyB> | See what happens if you actually try typing "quit" straight into vim. :) |
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| 16:27 | < ShellNinja> | Nowadays my attempt would start with Ctrl-C. |
| 16:28 | < ShellNinja> | Followed by q, then 'kill -9 `pgrep vim`' in another console window. |
| 17:00 | < RichyB> | Missed a trick. |
| 17:00 | < RichyB> | Hit ctrl-Z to suspend vim, then "kill -9 %1" |
| 17:01 | < RichyB> | to shoot it in the back of the head while it's suspended. |
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| 18:03 | < celticminstrel> | I think Ctrl-Z is the method I have used in the past. |
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| 18:20 | < Tarinaky> | RichyB: I said some permutation. |
| 18:20 | < Tarinaky> | RichyB: What if they type exit then quit? |
| 18:21 | < RichyB> | "tquit" |
| 18:21 | < Tarinaky> | Exactly :) |
| 18:21 | < Tarinaky> | The randomness will be very poor. |
| 18:22 | < Tarinaky> | Even hammering 'randomly' o the keyboard will favour particular keys close to home or with looser mechnical tolerances. |
| 18:22 | < RichyB> | Only for the first dozen bytes! After that they give up and start mashing their faces against the keyboard in desperation. |
| 18:23 | < RichyB> | Yeah. You can still use it, though. You run the string through md5sum and take the lower couple bytes. |
| 18:23 | < Tarinaky> | The period of repititions will be very low. |
| 18:23 | < RichyB> | How many bytes you pull out depends on your estimation of how much entropy has really been generated. |
| 18:24 | | * Tarinaky thinks he knows something ofm prngs because he read a book once... Tarinaky is such an arrogant sob xD |
| 18:24 | < RichyB> | This is how Linux and BSD /dev/random turn lots of relatively low-entropy events (network timings, hard disk timings, differentials of keyboard press timings) into a byte stream. |
| 18:24 | < Tarinaky> | I guess so. |
| 18:38 | | * Tarinaky frowns. |
| 18:39 | < Tarinaky> | Anyone know a good place to ask PySide questions? :/ |
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| 18:45 | <~Vornicus> | "pyside"? |
| 18:45 | <@Tamber> | east-side, west-side, py-side? |
| 18:46 | <@Ling> | Capitalization is important, there are (or were) two projects that differed only in that regard. |
| 18:47 | < Tarinaky> | Vornicus: LGPL bindings for Qt in Python. |
| 18:54 | | * gnolam orders a replacement portable. |
| 19:33 | <@jerith> | I've been listening to a podcast about DSLs and now want to tackle the USSD survey thing again. |
| 19:34 | <@Ling> | Why are you coding a United States Super Destroyer in a DSL? |
| 19:34 | <@jerith> | Unstructured Supplementary Service Data. Go read your GSM spec. ;-) |
| 19:35 | <@Ling> | I'll pass. |
| 19:35 | <@jerith> | Also known as "star menus". |
| 19:36 | <@jerith> | Although input can be arbitrary text, not just menu selections. |
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| 19:49 | < Rhamphoryncus> | RichyB, Tarinaky: estimating the amount of entropy in keyboard presses is harder than extracting the entropy from it |
| 19:50 | < Rhamphoryncus> | And the timing of the presses can provide entropy too, not just what the key is |
| 19:50 | < RichyB> | It's the timing that Linux uses, not the key value. |
| 19:51 | < RichyB> | IIRC, Linux's heuristic is a test like, "take the first five differentials of the interrupt times. If any of them are zero, ignore this keypress event" and something like a fixed couple-of-bits per keypress that doesn't fail that. |
| 19:51 | < RichyB> | Ignored events are still mixed into the entropy pool but don't increment the entropy count. |
| 21:51 | | * Rhamphoryncus nods |
| 21:52 | < Rhamphoryncus> | I recall some windows ssh that used keyboard input to generate the key, but I can't say how it was implemented |
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| --- Log closed Mon Mar 12 22:34:38 2012 |
| --- Log opened Mon Mar 12 22:34:46 2012 |
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| 22:43 | <&McMartin> | PuTTYgen and PGP both did it |
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| --- Log closed Tue Mar 13 00:00:39 2012 |