| --- Log opened Tue Mar 06 00:00:04 2012 |
| 00:00 | <&McMartin> | Stalker: There's a couple of things I think are interesting and want to dig into more, but I'm seeing nothing that makes me want to upgrade except for "work needs to make sure our stuff runs on Win8 too" purposes. |
| 00:01 | < Stalker> | Yeah. |
| 00:02 | < maoranma> | I'll use Windows 7 until they stop supporting it, unless they haven't released anything better than 7, then I'll have to be "that guy who complains nothing runs on his windows 98 machine" |
| 00:02 | <&McMartin> | Really, if Win8 had a tiling window system (it doesn't) I'd already be singing its praises~ |
| 00:02 | < maoranma> | Tiling window system? |
| 00:03 | <&McMartin> | Apps think of themselves as fullscreen in Metro |
| 00:04 | < maoranma> | Oh, sort of like a phone? |
| 00:04 | <&McMartin> | If I could have had, say, "split screen with reference reader on left, text editor on right, and if I move the mouse to this edge, the IM client scrolls in", I'm in a basically ideal environment. |
| 00:04 | <&McMartin> | More like DOSSHELL.exe, really~ |
| 00:04 | <@ToxicFrog> | maoranma: "here are a bunch of apps, resize and arrange them so that all of them are visible at once with no overlap" |
| 00:04 | < maoranma> | ToxicFrog: I do something like that with aquasnap |
| 00:04 | <&McMartin> | xmonad's also built for it |
| 00:05 | <&McMartin> | Though the ability to have stuff temporarily come in from the sides would be an important addition for my workflow (and why I do not presently use a tiling manager) |
| 00:07 | < Namegduf> | Multiple individually swappable monitors is the usual way to get that. |
| 00:07 | <@Alek> | I remember DOSSHELL. >_> |
| 00:07 | <&McMartin> | Right, but I don't want my IM client to be a whole monitor; I want it occasionally to be the rightmost 20% of my screen. |
| 00:08 | < Tarinaky> | The ideal solution is a tiling wm sitting underneath a normal wm. :p |
| 00:08 | < Tarinaky> | But I have no idea how you'd get that to work without being annoying. |
| 00:09 | < Namegduf> | McMartin: I just pair it with a browser on a workspace. |
| 00:10 | <&McMartin> | Tarinaky: Careful and extremely precise use of a normal wm, in practice. =P |
| 00:10 | <&McMartin> | That's why I had initial high hopes for W8, because some of the "scroll a bit in" stuff implied a workable hybrid that, well, it isn't |
| 00:10 | < Namegduf> | I'm pretty sure you could build that behaviour in XMonad if you really wanted. |
| 00:11 | < Namegduf> | I have two windows with whichever I mouse over going to 2/3rds width on my netbook. |
| 00:11 | < Namegduf> | Effective multitasking at 1024x768? More likely than you think! |
| 00:11 | < Namegduf> | I couldn't guide through that process, though. |
| 00:11 | <&McMartin> | Yeah |
| 00:11 | < Namegduf> | You'd need to know Haskell. |
| 00:11 | <@ToxicFrog> | I just use multiple desktops for everything. |
| 00:11 | <&McMartin> | Well, I do~ |
| 00:12 | < Namegduf> | I do on my desktop, with multiple monitors. |
| 00:12 | <&McMartin> | I've been using Caml more recently, but Haskell's in my toolkit. |
| 00:12 | < Namegduf> | I insist on the ability to mix browser and IM, though. |
| 00:12 | <&McMartin> | However, my core systems are all Win7 at the moment. |
| 00:12 | < Namegduf> | I want to be able to see when someone is notifying me, though. |
| 00:12 | < Namegduf> | Well yeah, if you're not on Linux, tiling WMs are just not an option AFAIK |
| 00:12 | < Namegduf> | Not decent ones, anyway |
| 00:13 | < Namegduf> | And a shit tiling WM is almost certainly worse than just not having one. |
| 00:13 | < Stalker> | WM? |
| 00:13 | <&McMartin> | Thus the additional hope that maybe MS had come around as part of the TABLET ALL THE THINGS |
| 00:13 | <&McMartin> | Window Manager |
| 00:13 | < Stalker> | Window manager! Ah. right. |
| 00:13 | < Stalker> | There are a few for windows, don't think I heard of one for MacOS. But the problems with the windows one is a significant decrease in system resources. |
| 00:14 | < Stalker> | Mostly because windows just isn't built for it. |
| 00:14 | <&McMartin> | Indeed |
| 00:15 | < Namegduf> | My standard layout is usually IM + Browser + Other Monitor at home. |
| 00:15 | < Namegduf> | Which swaps between terminals and Windows. |
| 00:15 | < Namegduf> | Because secretly my entire Linux system is actually a VM, so I have native Windows 3D for a few things. |
| 00:16 | < Namegduf> | So I just "minimise" that fullscreen VirtualBox window. |
| 00:16 | < Namegduf> | It can do other stuff, too. Like email. |
| 00:16 | < Namegduf> | Just rarer. |
| 00:28 | < maoranma> | I need to get Fedora onto a pen drive |
| 00:31 | | Derakon[AFK] is now known as Derakon |
| 00:42 | <&McMartin> | Oh hey, Ars has several articles on Win8 |
| 00:43 | | * McMartin reads them while his code compiles, checks to see how their experiences matched up with his. |
| 00:46 | <&McMartin> | "On systems with a respectable resolution (1366x768 or higher), in addition to the full-screen view there is a split-screen mode. The split is fixed and asymmetric. Two applications can be shown at one time. One takes up the majority of the screen, the other is constrained to a narrow ("snapped") sidebar." |
| 00:46 | <&McMartin> | Wait what is this |
| 00:47 | <&McMartin> | I did not work out how to make that happen, though I do want that on top of a full split pls |
| 00:49 | < gnolam> | Arrrrrrrgh |
| 00:50 | < gnolam> | WHAT IS IT WITH LINUX GUIS AND MINSIZES |
| 00:50 | <&McMartin> | It also occurs to me that "Microsoft Windows 8" is the least appropriate name ever >_> |
| 00:50 | <&McMartin> | "Swiping an app from the top allows it to be "picked up." It can then be dragged to the left or right to snap it, or off the bottom of the screen to close it." |
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| 00:59 | < Tarinaky> | Advice required: What's the best way to make a game as fast as possible? |
| 01:00 | <&McMartin> | Run it on extremely powerful hardware. |
| 01:00 | <&McMartin> | That question needs a lot of extra stuff around it to give a remotely useful answer. |
| 01:00 | <&McMartin> | Fastest FPS? Fastest perceived FPS? Fastest response time? Most simultaneous activity within a timespan? |
| 01:01 | < Tarinaky> | Ah, you've interpretted the question in a way I hadn't anticipated. |
| 01:01 | < Tarinaky> | I meant in the least programmer time. |
| 01:01 | <&McMartin> | Use a development framework. |
| 01:02 | <@ToxicFrog> | Use an existing engine/framework that provides all the features you want out of the box and uses a decent language. |
| 01:02 | <&McMartin> | Some people are currently examining Unity, AIUI |
| 01:02 | <&McMartin> | Then there's XNA if you're OK with C# and being MS platform-bound |
| 01:02 | < Tarinaky> | The requirements are for a very basic 4x pbem game. |
| 01:02 | <&McMartin> | YoYo's Game Maker if you want to avoid as much of what looks like programming as possible, with a JavaScript dialect for the rest... |
| 01:03 | <@ToxicFrog> | I've seen some good stuff in Unity, and supposedly it'll get Linux support soon. |
| 01:03 | <&McMartin> | PBEM is an interesting choice for network engine =P |
| 01:03 | <@ToxicFrog> | (in fact I'm playing something in Unity right now~) |
| 01:03 | <&McMartin> | Presumably the game engine would interpret this as file access |
| 01:03 | < Stalker> | Any DOSbox gurus in here can tell me how exacly the -conf suffix is supposed to work? I tried "DOSBox.exe -conf MoO2.conf" but that didn't work. |
| 01:03 | <@ToxicFrog> | Personally, I've had good results with love2d (2d only, though), but I'm not sure I'd recommend it for anything large. |
| 01:04 | <&McMartin> | Love2d and Pygame aren't really *engines* the way Unity is |
| 01:04 | <@ToxicFrog> | Stalker: that's how it's meant to work. Make sure MoO2.conf is in the dir you're running DOSBOX in. |
| 01:04 | < Tarinaky> | I was looking at PyGame. |
| 01:04 | <@ToxicFrog> | McMartin: ...where do you draw the distinction, then? |
| 01:04 | < Stalker> | Ah! |
| 01:04 | < Tarinaky> | I was hoping people had better suggestions than reinventing the wheel. |
| 01:04 | < Tarinaky> | I'd rather stay xplatform though. |
| 01:04 | < Stalker> | I made sure the conf was in the dir DOSBox's own conf was in. |
| 01:04 | < Tarinaky> | Which rules unity out a little >.> |
| 01:05 | <&McMartin> | TF: Thin wrappers over a framebuffer do not a game engine make, imo. |
| 01:05 | <&McMartin> | Love2d has some notion of a physics, IIRC, but I do not know how thorough it is. |
| 01:05 | <@ToxicFrog> | It binds the entire box2d library, so "rather". |
| 01:05 | < Tarinaky> | Physics not required. |
| 01:05 | <@ToxicFrog> | Also an event loop. |
| 01:05 | <&McMartin> | Pygame has no internal notion of physics, animation loops, etc. |
| 01:05 | < Tarinaky> | The big thing is that Widgets would be good. |
| 01:05 | < Tarinaky> | I anticipating requiring lots of widgets. |
| 01:05 | <&McMartin> | For a strategy game, you may be best served with something like Qt. |
| 01:06 | < Tarinaky> | I'd almost be tempted to go Java on that merit. |
| 01:06 | <@ToxicFrog> | Animations are roll-your-own (although there are libraries for that), but AFAICT that's also true for Unity |
| 01:06 | < Tarinaky> | Animations not required either. |
| 01:06 | <&McMartin> | Tarinaky: Consider just making a stock dialog box based GUI app, then, with a Canvas object for display, drawn to once per turn |
| 01:07 | < Tarinaky> | in Java? |
| 01:07 | <@ToxicFrog> | In anything. |
| 01:07 | <@ToxicFrog> | Personally I would not recommend Java, but my feelings on that language are already well-known~ |
| 01:07 | <@ToxicFrog> | s/anything/anything that has bindings to a non-shit GUI library/ |
| 01:07 | < Tarinaky> | Well, I believe the topic of doing GUI stuff in Python is bad. |
| 01:08 | < Tarinaky> | And Java has Swing... >.> |
| 01:08 | <&McMartin> | PyGtk and PyQt are both decent, AIUI, though I haven't used either much |
| 01:08 | <&McMartin> | Swing is not the worst GUI library out there, but it's not pleasant, either. |
| 01:08 | < gnolam> | Python itself is extremely suitable for GUI programming. |
| 01:08 | < Tarinaky> | I thought Swing was supposed to be one of the easiest? |
| 01:09 | < Tarinaky> | Although... that was back in like... 2004 |
| 01:09 | < gnolam> | It just happens that wxPython was written by Abdul al-Hazred in his spare time, and GTK is well... GTK. |
| 01:09 | <&McMartin> | My favored system is Qt4 |
| 01:09 | <&McMartin> | But I've used Swing successfully - Blorple uses it - and it does things that I could not get PyGtk to do. |
| 01:09 | <@ToxicFrog> | Tarinaky: if that's the case GUI programming was in a sorry state in 2004 |
| 01:09 | <@ToxicFrog> | Which, granted, I am entirely willing to accept as a statement~ |
| 01:09 | < Tarinaky> | ToxicFrog: Main competition was the Win98 API. |
| 01:10 | <&McMartin> | Qt3 was kind of a mess, and Gtk was a horrible mess even in 2008. |
| 01:10 | <&McMartin> | When I was first writing Blorple. |
| 01:10 | <&McMartin> | MFC has always been a terrible abortion |
| 01:11 | <@ToxicFrog> | Fair enough, although having worked in GTK around that time frame I would characterize it as a "terrible mess" only by comparison with Qt4; it was much better than anything else I tried that year. |
| 01:11 | <&McMartin> | WinForms isn't *terrible*, and if used idiomatically it's arguably better than Swing, but about 90% of that is "C# is a better language, structurally, than java" |
| 01:11 | < Namegduf> | Isn't there a PyQt? |
| 01:11 | < Namegduf> | How competent is that? |
| 01:11 | <&McMartin> | There is, but I haven't used it and can't comment |
| 01:11 | < Tarinaky> | Hello World in PyGTK doesn't look... like what I want. |
| 01:11 | <&McMartin> | My work in Qt has always been directly in C++ |
| 01:11 | < gnolam> | There is a PyQt, and it's what I recommend. |
| 01:11 | <&McMartin> | Can PyQt load Qt Designer files? |
| 01:12 | <&McMartin> | TF: OK, I was under the impression that love2d only bound SDL. |
| 01:12 | <&McMartin> | Box2d is more of an engine than SDL is. |
| 01:12 | <&McMartin> | SDL is not an engine. |
| 01:12 | <@ToxicFrog> | It doesn't use SDL at all, AIUI |
| 01:12 | <@ToxicFrog> | It just provides an SDL+SDLGfx-like API for framebuffer operations |
| 01:13 | <@ToxicFrog> | Well, SDL + SDL_gfx + SDL_image + SDL_TTF |
| 01:16 | < Tarinaky> | Right, thanks for the advice. |
| 01:16 | < Tarinaky> | I sleep now. |
| 01:18 | <@ToxicFrog> | My recommendation would pretty much be "pick a language you know and like, or a language you want to learn, that has bindings to Qt, and use that" |
| 01:20 | < Tarinaky> | Before I go. |
| 01:20 | < Tarinaky> | What should I really do about netcode |
| 01:20 | < Tarinaky> | When I said PBEM I wasn't entirely serious. |
| 01:20 | <@ToxicFrog> | What about it? Use JSON or messagepack or protocol buffers or roll your own. |
| 01:21 | < Tarinaky> | I know nothing about netcode - and the desired functionality is pbem-like/slow game. |
| 01:22 | < Tarinaky> | Would pickle/serialisation for a save file even be a not-ridiculous option? |
| 01:22 | < Tarinaky> | *emailed save file |
| 01:22 | <&McMartin> | I forget if pickle can be shifted across machines. |
| 01:22 | <&McMartin> | JSON definitely can |
| 01:23 | <&McMartin> | Is it important that people not be able to hand-edit the saves? |
| 01:23 | < Tarinaky> | Not really. |
| 01:23 | <@ToxicFrog> | Pickle can be shifted across machines but has a lot of things to be careful of. |
| 01:23 | <&McMartin> | JSON is probably your cheapest route. |
| 01:23 | <&McMartin> | Since it will force you to define the format in ways that will have to work portably. |
| 01:23 | <@ToxicFrog> | Go with something language-agnostic. JSON is easy, messagepack and protocol buffers take more effort to set up but are faster and give you more safety checks. |
| 01:23 | < gnolam> | <3 JSON |
| 01:24 | <~Vornicus> | <3 JSON as well |
| 01:24 | < Namegduf> | <3 protobufs |
| 01:24 | | * Vornicus has never used messagepack or protocol buffers. |
| 01:24 | < Namegduf> | You should try them. |
| 01:25 | < maoranma> | <3 yaml |
| 01:25 | < maoranma> | Though pyyaml hasn't been updated to yaml 1.2 |
| 01:25 | < Namegduf> | Please don't use YAML as a serialisation format for communication between systems |
| 01:25 | < Namegduf> | :P |
| 01:25 | < Namegduf> | Protocol buffers are awesomely compact and fast, and I understand messagepack to be something basically along the same lines (they say it is better). |
| 01:25 | <~Vornicus> | Though I do not often have need of stringy serialization. |
| 01:25 | < maoranma> | NAW MAN THAT'S WHAT XML IS FER |
| 01:26 | < Namegduf> | You shall be put to death. |
| 01:26 | < Namegduf> | At dawn. |
| 01:27 | < maoranma> | Hehe, I've just been playing with yaml in python, figuring out how to play with it |
| 01:27 | < Namegduf> | YAML is nice as a configuration file format, as they go. |
| 01:27 | < Namegduf> | Bit complicated and library support is kinda crappy |
| 01:27 | < Namegduf> | But functional. |
| 01:27 | < Namegduf> | Better than any of the serialisation-intended formats, or, worse, XML. |
| 01:27 | < maoranma> | The only thing I've found is when you have a ordered list of dictionaries, I can't seem to find a way to call any of the values by key, since it's just a list, I have to index it |
| 01:29 | < maoranma> | I supposed I could leave it unordered, but I have to be sure I don't have two key values for something...actually, I need to check how yaml handles that |
| 01:31 | < maoranma> | hmm, it just overwrites it |
| 01:31 | <~Vornicus> | What are you trying to do with a list of dictionaries that you're trying to index globally by dict key? |
| 01:32 | < maoranma> | Well, I'm trying to make sure an object created from a list has values that are callable in some simple, easy way |
| 01:33 | < maoranma> | Example: I have Moves: 1: move a 2: Move b 3: move c 3: move d |
| 01:34 | < maoranma> | Since I have 3 listed twice, yaml eats move c with move d unless I use - in the indent |
| 01:34 | < maoranma> | Which makes it a list of one key dictionaries |
| 01:34 | <~Vornicus> | I'm not entirely sure what's going on |
| 01:34 | < maoranma> | one sec to paste bin |
| 01:41 | < maoranma> | Vornicus: http://pastebin.starforge.co.uk/503 |
| 01:41 | < maoranma> | Wow, and pastebin ate my indents |
| 01:46 | < maoranma> | I think I know what the simple fix is, just do the moves for level 13 as single entry with new lines |
| 01:46 | <~Vornicus> | So, in particular, you're looking at the move list and when they become available. |
| 01:58 | <~Vornicus> | Well... I don't know. I'd actually go - since you know each move only gets learned once - move: level |
| 01:58 | <~Vornicus> | And then if you want it a different direction you can change it around. |
| 01:58 | < maoranma> | Oh |
| 01:58 | < maoranma> | I hadn't thought of that, haha |
| 02:09 | < maoranma> | That's why they pay Vornicus the big bucks |
| 02:17 | | Kindamoody[zZz] is now known as Kindamoody |
| 02:20 | <~Vornicus> | Man I wish. |
| 02:23 | < froztbyte> | <gnolam> WHAT IS IT WITH LINUX GUIS AND MINSIZES |
| 02:23 | < froztbyte> | mostly a gnome affliction |
| 02:23 | < froztbyte> | because DICTATE USER INTERFACE because USER STUPID |
| 02:23 | < froztbyte> | (fucking pieces of shit) |
| 02:25 | < froztbyte> | (the most hilarious part of it is the removal of choice, in an ecosystem which promotes choice) |
| 02:26 | < Namegduf> | GNOME is about dealing with a user interface which makes certain actions too hard, by making a bunch of hard things impossible to simplify tasks that already weren't the deal breaker. |
| 02:27 | <&Derakon> | To be fair, UIs that promote all choices equally when 99% of use cases involve doing only a small handful of things tend to be horribly clunky and hard to use. |
| 02:27 | <&Derakon> | Making a choice-friendly UI that still handles the 99% case elegantly is bloody hard. |
| 02:27 | < Namegduf> | It's not a matter of "promote choice equally". |
| 02:27 | < Namegduf> | It's a matter of GNOME 3 excluding power management options entirely. |
| 02:27 | < Namegduf> | As in, *they do not exist*. |
| 02:27 | <&Derakon> | Ah. |
| 02:27 | < Namegduf> | Because they don't feel that the average user should have to muck with them. |
| 02:28 | < Namegduf> | Which is understandable but entirely unhelpful to any sensible goal. |
| 02:28 | < Namegduf> | "Having to muck with power options like on Windows" is not the deal breaker for Linux on the desktop. |
| 02:28 | < froztbyte> | Derakon: I understand the case of dealing with complexity |
| 02:29 | < froztbyte> | but hiding it away in a sane way, versus completely removing the possibility and assuming that your choice will always work correct for everyone? nuh-uh. |
| 02:29 | < Namegduf> | I can understand a coherent effort to remove the cases where a user would have to perform tasks they aren't capable of, followed by more general refinement. |
| 02:29 | < froztbyte> | ah, Namegduf pointed out one of my favourite examples already |
| 02:29 | < froztbyte> | that was already shot in the knees over the later life of gnome2 |
| 02:30 | < Namegduf> | GNOME is more the opposite; simplifying things users can already do and are, while probably not great, not deal breakers, by creating more deal breakers. |
| 02:30 | < Namegduf> | Need power management without mucking in gconf? |
| 02:30 | < froztbyte> | and just got progressively worse |
| 02:30 | < Namegduf> | Whoops, not for you. |
| 02:30 | < Namegduf> | (And I'm unsure if gconf can do it) |
| 02:30 | < froztbyte> | Namegduf: and then, invariably, mucking about in gconf is *even worse* |
| 02:30 | <&Derakon> | In hindsight, commenting on GUIs in Linux was probably not a great idea. Forget I said anything~ |
| 02:30 | < froztbyte> | or the equivalent spot |
| 02:30 | < froztbyte> | because you can't get any documentation on it |
| 02:30 | < Namegduf> | XD |
| 02:31 | < froztbyte> | especially on something like power management, wifi stuff, etc |
| 02:31 | < froztbyte> | there's so much abstraction and per-driver interface shit happening |
| 02:31 | < froztbyte> | and you can't figure out what the hell is relevant |
| 02:31 | < froztbyte> | without some hours spent on it |
| 02:31 | < froztbyte> | </rant> |
| 02:31 | < froztbyte> | Derakon: here's the really good bit |
| 02:32 | < froztbyte> | this problem more or less doesn't exist in !GNOME |
| 02:32 | < froztbyte> | xfce isn't even as afflicted as gnome is, despite using the same base toolkit |
| 02:32 | < froztbyte> | (or at least, it wasn't when I last looked) |
| 02:32 | < Namegduf> | XFCE is alright. |
| 02:33 | < Namegduf> | Simple, has options it needs to have, |
| 02:33 | < gnolam> | I'm using XFCE. Which is the sanest alternative for a netbook I've found. |
| 02:33 | < gnolam> | Sanest, however, doesn't make it /sane/. :P |
| 02:33 | < Namegduf> | I use XFCE + XMonad on both my netbook and desktop. |
| 02:33 | <@ToxicFrog> | XCFE has been missing critical features every time I've tried it. |
| 02:33 | < Namegduf> | Which features were these? |
| 02:33 | < Namegduf> | It's entirely plausible that you're right, or that there's pain in getting them from separate tools. |
| 02:34 | < gnolam> | Oh, and s/alternative/Linux alternative |
| 02:34 | < froztbyte> | gnolam: when I still owned an eeepc-701w, I had a reasonably good experience with debian + kde-netbook |
| 02:34 | < froztbyte> | ubuntu + kde-netbook was basically unusable |
| 02:34 | < froztbyte> | too much resource drain |
| 02:34 | < Namegduf> | XFCE is not overwhelmingly feature rich. |
| 02:34 | <@ToxicFrog> | Namegduf: dockable system monitor and multiple rows of virtual desktops were the big ones I noticed last time I tried |
| 02:34 | < froztbyte> | debian had less userland gunk |
| 02:34 | < Namegduf> | Ah, okay. |
| 02:34 | < Namegduf> | I don't consider those such big deals. |
| 02:34 | < froztbyte> | gnolam: so, if you're looking for options, that might be a thing |
| 02:34 | < Namegduf> | But that's reasonable. |
| 02:34 | < gnolam> | Isn't KDE netbook that Plasma abomination? |
| 02:35 | < froztbyte> | yes |
| 02:35 | < froztbyte> | but it works :P |
| 02:35 | < gnolam> | YOU WILL USE ONE APPLICATION AT A TIME. TRUST FRIEND COMPUTER. |
| 02:35 | < froztbyte> | wait what? |
| 02:35 | < froztbyte> | that sounds like unity, not -netbook |
| 02:35 | < gnolam> | (All the while actually taking up /more/ precious vertical space than XFCE) |
| 02:36 | < froztbyte> | no seriously, what? is this a newer thing? |
| 02:36 | < froztbyte> | my 701 got stolen in jan last year, and I'd last installed like 6 months before that |
| 02:37 | <@ToxicFrog> | Namegduf: I rely heavily on multiple desktops everywhere, and I need the dockable system monitor on my laptop because of how resource-constrained it is. |
| 02:37 | < Namegduf> | Ah. |
| 02:37 | < gnolam> | Don't know. Tried it during my last "let's see if there are any decent alternatives to XFCE" installfest. And that was a while ago. |
| 02:37 | < maoranma> | Yes friend computer! Why would I need to use another application... |
| 02:37 | < Namegduf> | I do too, but I use Win + <number> to switch. |
| 02:37 | <@ToxicFrog> | This is also why I can't use KDE at all. |
| 02:37 | < Namegduf> | Never a taskbar. |
| 02:37 | < Namegduf> | I don't even have a virtual desktop thing on mine. |
| 02:37 | <@ToxicFrog> | Oh, I use the keyboard shortcuts to switch |
| 02:37 | <@ToxicFrog> | But they aren't numbered, they're a grid |
| 02:37 | <@ToxicFrog> | XFCE doesn't let me grid them |
| 02:37 | < froztbyte> | gnolam: hmm..well, if you do try it again in a livedisc or something, I'd be interested to know if you run into the same issue |
| 02:38 | <@ToxicFrog> | And switching through 21 vdesks arranged in a single row is a pain no matter how you do it |
| 02:38 | < Namegduf> | 21? |
| 02:38 | < Namegduf> | I'd do something like my irssi setup. |
| 02:38 | < Namegduf> | Which is Alt + 1 to 0, q to p, a to ; |
| 02:38 | < maoranma> | Yes friend computer, everyone in #code SHOULD trust you |
| 02:38 | < Namegduf> | And so on |
| 02:38 | <@ToxicFrog> | Well, only 7-9 of those are in common use, but depending on what I'm working on I may grab many more. |
| 02:38 | < Namegduf> | So presumably Win + those things. |
| 02:39 | < Namegduf> | Each row being 10. |
| 02:39 | <@ToxicFrog> | I switch with C-M-arrow keys. Topology is important. |
| 02:39 | < Namegduf> | Huh, okay. |
| 02:39 | < maoranma> | brb protesting bladdah |
| 02:39 | < froztbyte> | Namegduf: my main problem with that approach (that I've run into once or twice) is modifier clashes depending on app |
| 02:39 | < Namegduf> | froztbyte: I manage mine to deal with that. |
| 02:39 | < Namegduf> | It's not so tough. |
| 02:39 | < Namegduf> | Don't bind shit in the WM to Alt. |
| 02:39 | < Namegduf> | Turn off terminal shortcuts. All of them. |
| 02:40 | < froztbyte> | now what if your app uses alt-modifiers? |
| 02:40 | < Namegduf> | Don't bind shit anywhere BUT the WM to WIn/Super. |
| 02:40 | <@ToxicFrog> | So, yeah. Of the desktop environments I've used, GNOME 2 is the only one that does everything I need without requiring hours upon hours of careful manual configuration. |
| 02:40 | < Namegduf> | What "app"? |
| 02:40 | < Namegduf> | I'm reserving alt for the app |
| 02:40 | < froztbyte> | Namegduf: OOo, firefox, pidgin, etc? |
| 02:40 | < froztbyte> | ah, right |
| 02:40 | < Namegduf> | It only works for irssi switching if irssi has focus anyway |
| 02:40 | < froztbyte> | so you only ever use the former keys |
| 02:40 | < Namegduf> | Win is the WM equivalent |
| 02:40 | < froztbyte> | sorry, I misunderstood you for a moment |
| 02:40 | < Namegduf> | Or "Super" |
| 02:40 | <@ToxicFrog> | GNOME 3 and XFCE tie for a distant second. KDE is completely unusable. Other WMs require too much hacking. |
| 02:40 | < froztbyte> | win/super is my modifier key for compose |
| 02:40 | < froztbyte> | but then I've got other methods of dealing with this |
| 02:40 | < Namegduf> | I like "Win" for "Window Manager". |
| 02:41 | < Namegduf> | Heh. |
| 02:41 | < gnolam> | froztbyte: I don't think it was technically impossible, but I remember it being an utter pain in the arse. I think I gave up on KDE netbook within half an hour. |
| 02:41 | < Namegduf> | irssi actually goes up to 90. |
| 02:41 | < Namegduf> | 1 to / give 40 |
| 02:41 | < Namegduf> | + Shift gives 80 |
| 02:41 | < Namegduf> | Then F1 to F10 for 90. |
| 02:41 | < Namegduf> | I had shift + F1 to F10 for a bit but I think a bunch of those didn't work. |
| 02:42 | < Namegduf> | And remembering holes in the layout is more trouble than it is worth. |
| 02:42 | < froztbyte> | ctrl+alt+shift+arrow moves around virtual desktops (direction-wise), another chord combo (I forget which on this desktop, as I don't use it much here) launches the expose-like feature |
| 02:42 | < gnolam> | BTW, is there a Linux WM that replicates the Windows 7 win+left/win+right behavior? |
| 02:42 | < Namegduf> | Win+left Win+right? |
| 02:42 | <&McMartin> | I don't know of any |
| 02:42 | < froztbyte> | where I can then start typing a window name to hit it up |
| 02:42 | < maoranma> | Aerosnap |
| 02:42 | <&McMartin> | "Make current window take up entire left/right half of the screen" |
| 02:42 | < Namegduf> | Oh. |
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| 02:42 | < froztbyte> | gnolam: KDE has that ;D |
| 02:42 | < Namegduf> | Yeah XMonad default behaviour on a workspace with two windows. |
| 02:42 | <&McMartin> | aka "the reason McM can't really use XP anymore, because it doesn't have that" |
| 02:43 | | * froztbyte doesn't use it much |
| 02:43 | < froztbyte> | sigh, I need to open my keyboard again :< |
| 02:43 | < Namegduf> | With shortcuts to adjust the ratio and alternative layouts. I use a "80 width terminal left, remainder right" layout. |
| 02:43 | < maoranma> | McMartin: I started using AquaSnap because I got used to the better linux version, and aquasnap works on XP |
| 02:43 | < Namegduf> | The nifty thing is that it keeps that rule if I move it onto another monitor. |
| 02:43 | < maoranma> | and is a portable app |
| 02:43 | < Namegduf> | Terminal width stays constant, browser shrinks. |
| 02:44 | < froztbyte> | Logitech G15, and the disable-super-keys dipswitch and its physical toggle got out of alignment during last cleaning |
| 02:44 | < froztbyte> | so they're all permanently off at the moment :/ |
| 02:44 | < Namegduf> | I used to do that when pulling it onto the smaller screen to watch a movie. |
| 02:44 | < Namegduf> | But now they're the same size anyway. |
| 02:44 | <&McMartin> | maoranma: Well, of course, I now have many other reasons to not use XP |
| 02:44 | < maoranma> | The only issue I have with aquasnap is if you click on teh title bar, it goes back to the old position, but I can live with that |
| 02:44 | < Namegduf> | Oh, popout terminal. |
| 02:44 | < Namegduf> | I just remembered. |
| 02:44 | < Namegduf> | Fullscreen toggle. |
| 02:44 | < Namegduf> | That can do some of that. |
| 02:45 | < Namegduf> | Win+f on my setup gives the currently focused window fullscreen. |
| 02:45 | < maoranma> | I used Guake for terminal in lin? |
| 02:45 | < Namegduf> | And off again. |
| 02:45 | < Namegduf> | Doing that on the workspace with IM would hide/show it. |
| 02:45 | < maoranma> | linux, damn esperanto hotstring |
| 02:48 | < froztbyte> | what's a hotstring? |
| 02:49 | < froztbyte> | Guake is the gnome/gtk version of yakuake, which in turn is the dropdown terminal thing, yes? |
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| 03:19 | < Eri> | Guake sounds like a gnome port of Quake |
| 03:19 | < Eri> | Just saying |
| 03:27 | < maoranma> | Nah, it's just a console like terminal |
| 03:27 | < maoranma> | I like it |
| 03:28 | < maoranma> | Or what froztbyte said |
| 03:28 | <~Vornicus> | You know how in Quake if you hit ` you get a console? same deal. |
| 03:30 | < maoranma> | froztbyte: Hotstrings are like deadkeys, press this letter then that letter to get a different letter entirely, my esperanto one does ??????? and the capital variants when I type an x after the letter |
| 03:31 | < maoranma> | A second x gives me the english letter... the only word I ever have problems with seems to be linux. Having to type linuxx so I don't type lin?. |
| 03:31 | < froztbyte> | okay, so it's like compose-keys, just with a bit less effort |
| 03:32 | < maoranma> | yea sure |
| 03:32 | < maoranma> | or w/e |
| 03:32 | < froztbyte> | I suppose it makes sense |
| 03:32 | < froztbyte> | neat way to interact with things in such locales |
| 03:32 | < maoranma> | the *x convention is used on computer for esperanto because there's no letter x in the language |
| 03:33 | < maoranma> | So you get words like ankaux |
| 03:33 | < froztbyte> | hehe, interesting |
| 03:34 | < maoranma> | that way typesetters for Esperanto know what letter to use, and devices that can't type unicode can still communicate in Esperanto |
| 03:35 | < maoranma> | Or, in my case, a program sits in the background, ready to replace the letters with the correct unicode letter |
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| 03:42 | < gnolam> | The good news is that I no longer have to worry about min sizes and other Linux GUI idiocy. |
| 03:42 | < gnolam> | The bad news is that I no longer have a working netbook,. |
| 03:47 | < froztbyte> | :/ |
| 03:47 | < froztbyte> | That combination does not balance out well |
| 03:51 | | Eri [Eri@Nightstar-3e5deec3.gv.shawcable.net] has quit [[NS] Quit: Leaving] |
| 03:56 | < maoranma> | gnolam: So, you blowtorched your nose off because you had the sniffles? |
| 03:57 | < celticminstrel> | ...Esperanto has circumflexes? |
| 04:00 | <&McMartin> | It has circumflexes that exist in no languages other than obscure dialects of Polish that match the creator of Esperanto's dialect. |
| 04:01 | <&McMartin> | That's how you can tell it's a universal language |
| 04:02 | < gnolam> | maoranma: no, I simply broke my trusty little netbook. |
| 04:02 | < gnolam> | It had served me well. :~( |
| 04:04 | < gnolam> | On the bright side, at least now I know that 1024x600 doesn't cut it when Linux GUI designers have been allowed near something, and can get a higher res screen on the next one. :P |
| 04:25 | < maoranma> | celticminstrel: Yes, specific to Esperanto even |
| 04:25 | < maoranma> | Also |
| 04:25 | | * maoranma tosses McMartin out a window |
| 04:25 | < maoranma> | And |
| 04:26 | < maoranma> | gnolam: I think my phone had better resolution than that, but I wouldn't do anything less than 1440x900 |
| 04:28 | < celticminstrel> | XD |
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| 07:20 | | You're now known as TheWatcher |
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| 09:31 | < gnolam> | Well. Looks like it won't be going to waste at least. |
| 09:34 | < gnolam> | Friend of mine wants a laptop he can abuse - screen optional, performance not an issue. |
| 09:37 | < gnolam> | Beats just chucking it in the recycling bin. |
| 09:57 | | You're now known as TheWatcher |
| 10:11 | | * TheWatcher eyes the github devs, wonders if they set out to make some of this as obtuse as possible |
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| 15:36 | < Eri> | Hmm. The example mysql api usage example is "stmt->exexute("DROP TABLE IF EXISTS"); |
| 15:36 | < Eri> | Remind me to use this on a test database |
| 15:36 | < Eri> | *execute |
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| 17:47 | < Tarinaky> | So I've been having a look at PySide (a LGPL alternative to PyQt made by Nokia... who currently maintain Qt...) |
| 17:47 | < Tarinaky> | I understand none of it. |
| 17:50 | <@ToxicFrog> | Welcome to GUI programming :D |
| 17:51 | < Tarinaky> | How are you supposed to use the Qt Designer? |
| 17:51 | < Tarinaky> | It doesn't really explain it beyond mentioning that you can. |
| 17:51 | < Tarinaky> | :/ |
| 17:51 | <@ToxicFrog> | More seriously, if you have questions about Qt (as opposed to about PyQt/PySide specifically), I can try to answer them |
| 17:52 | < Tarinaky> | Afraid my questions are, more or less, PyQt/PySide specific. |
| 17:52 | <@ToxicFrog> | Ok. Designer, like Glade for Gtk+, is a WYSIWYG GUI designer. It's a separate program you run that lets you put together a GUI design. |
| 17:53 | <@ToxicFrog> | (it has a manual at [http://qt-project.org/doc/qt-4.8/designer-manual.html]) |
| 17:54 | <@ToxicFrog> | Once you've done this, it saves it as an XML file. |
| 17:55 | < Tarinaky> | The example converts a .ui file to a .py file. |
| 17:55 | < Tarinaky> | :/ |
| 17:55 | <@ToxicFrog> | Your program then uses a QUiLoader to load that file, and can then use QUiLoader::availableWidgets() to get a list of all widgets defined in the file, and QUiLoader::createWidget() to create them (with all of the settings, layout, signal connections, etc you specified when you used Designer) |
| 17:56 | <@ToxicFrog> | Designer also has an alternate operating mode that translates the XML file into C++/Python/whatever which you then run directly. |
| 17:56 | <@ToxicFrog> | This is not recommended if it is at all possible to use the QUiLoader. |
| 17:58 | < Tarinaky> | Okay. Where do you suggest I start with the project? |
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| 18:01 | <@ToxicFrog> | A very basic GUI. Get familiar with the tools and the library. Start with just Hello World to make sure you can initialize the library correctly and whatnot. |
| 18:01 | <@ToxicFrog> | then perhaps add a QGraphicsView/QGraphicsScene and noodle with the drawing and object positioning PAI |
| 18:01 | <@ToxicFrog> | *API |
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| 18:44 | < ShellNinja> | I want to grep for foo*bar, where * can be anything. How I constructed regexp for grep? |
| 18:44 | < Tarinaky> | ToxicFrog: What's the difference between Qt Quick and Qt Widget? |
| 18:45 | < Tarinaky> | ShellNinja: foo*bar or foo?bar, depending on whether you want to match 1 character or n characters. |
| 18:45 | < Tarinaky> | I think. |
| 18:46 | < ShellNinja> | This doesn't seem to work. |
| 18:46 | < ShellNinja> | I get no results for something that should have results. |
| 18:51 | < gnolam> | foo.*bar |
| 18:51 | <@ToxicFrog> | Tarinaky: no idea, I've never heard of QtQuick |
| 18:51 | < gnolam> | Or is there always a character in between? |
| 18:51 | <@ToxicFrog> | Tarinaky: that's a shell glob, not a regex. grep uses regexes. |
| 18:52 | < Tarinaky> | Oh. |
| 18:52 | <@ToxicFrog> | * in glob is equivalent to .* in regexes; ? is equivalent to . |
| 18:52 | < gnolam> | (In that case, .+) |
| 18:54 | < Tarinaky> | So where's the thing in Qt Designer that exports as qml? |
| 18:54 | < Tarinaky> | I'm confused. |
| 18:54 | <@ToxicFrog> | ...what? |
| 18:55 | <@ToxicFrog> | You create your UI, you save it as a file |
| 18:55 | < Tarinaky> | I just went through the wizard to make a basic program. |
| 18:55 | < Tarinaky> | I have some cpp/hpp files and a ui file. |
| 18:57 | <@ToxicFrog> | Ok, I have no idea what you just did |
| 18:57 | < Tarinaky> | :/ |
| 18:57 | <@ToxicFrog> | File -> Save As, type: Designer UI File should spit out a .ui file. You can later load that with a QUiLoader. |
| 18:57 | < Tarinaky> | Okay. Yes. |
| 18:57 | <@ToxicFrog> | You seem to have told it to translate the UI into C++ source or something. |
| 18:57 | < Tarinaky> | You said I shouldn't use ui files? |
| 18:58 | <@ToxicFrog> | What? No, I said the exact opposite of that. |
| 18:58 | < Tarinaky> | You said I should use XML :/ |
| 18:58 | <@ToxicFrog> | ...open the .ui file in a text editor and you will see that it is XML. |
| 18:58 | <@ToxicFrog> | <ToxicFrog> Designer also has an alternate operating mode that translates the XML file into C++/Python/whatever which you then run directly. |
| 18:58 | <@ToxicFrog> | <ToxicFrog> This is not recommended if it is at all possible to use the QUiLoader. |
| 18:58 | <@ToxicFrog> | "the XML file" is the .ui file |
| 18:59 | < Tarinaky> | Ahah. |
| 18:59 | <@ToxicFrog> | "this" as in "this is not recommended" is "translating that file into executable program code rather than loading it with QUiLoader" |
| 18:59 | < Tarinaky> | I got that. |
| 18:59 | < Tarinaky> | I don't know how to just make a ui file though |
| 18:59 | < Tarinaky> | It wants me to make a project and generate some stubbed c++ |
| 19:01 | <@ToxicFrog> | o.O |
| 19:01 | <@ToxicFrog> | What version are you using? |
| 19:01 | < Tarinaky> | 2.4.1 |
| 19:01 | <@ToxicFrog> | Um |
| 19:02 | <@ToxicFrog> | Ok, the latest version is 4.8.x |
| 19:02 | < Tarinaky> | ... |
| 19:02 | < Tarinaky> | I downloaded it from Nokia's site. |
| 19:02 | < Tarinaky> | In the Qt SDK :/ |
| 19:02 | <@ToxicFrog> | Where, exactly? |
| 19:03 | < Tarinaky> | http://qt-project.org/downloads |
| 19:03 | < Tarinaky> | Qt Creator IDE version 2.4.1 |
| 19:03 | < Tarinaky> | I think I see where the confusion came in, lol. |
| 19:03 | <@ToxicFrog> | Qt Creator and Qt Designer are not the same thing. |
| 19:03 | <@ToxicFrog> | Designer is for designing UIs in a language-independent manner. |
| 19:04 | <@ToxicFrog> | Creator is a full-power C++ IDE for creating Qt applications. |
| 19:04 | < Tarinaky> | Ahah. |
| 19:09 | < Tarinaky> | Where does one get Designer? |
| 19:11 | <@ToxicFrog> | If you're getting it from the site, I'd assume it's in the "qt dev tools" pack |
| 19:11 | <@ToxicFrog> | In my case I just apt-get installed qt4-designer |
| 19:12 | < Tarinaky> | What dev tools pack? |
| 19:12 | <&McMartin> | One moment, let me check the site |
| 19:12 | < Tarinaky> | Appologies if I am being phenominally stupid |
| 19:12 | < Tarinaky> | My intelligence has been sapped to nought. |
| 19:13 | <&McMartin> | I think you want the SDK installer |
| 19:13 | <&McMartin> | http://qt.nokia.com/downloads |
| 19:13 | <&McMartin> | If you're on Windows or Mac, these installers have everything. |
| 19:14 | <&McMartin> | If you're on Linux your distro should have it all under some name already |
| 19:14 | < Tarinaky> | That's the same page |
| 19:14 | < Tarinaky> | Indeed, it might have, in fact, been the actual page I used. |
| 19:15 | <&McMartin> | OK |
| 19:15 | <&McMartin> | You should *have* Qt Designer than |
| 19:15 | <&McMartin> | *then |
| 19:15 | <&McMartin> | Look under c:\Program Files\Qt\4.8.0\bin, or dig around in your start menu |
| 19:22 | < Tarinaky> | Yeah, not under the start menu. |
| 19:22 | < Tarinaky> | I think the Designer has been rolled into the creator. |
| 19:22 | < Tarinaky> | Because the screen shots look similar if not the same :/ |
| 19:25 | <@ToxicFrog> | It certainly hasn't been in te linux version |
| 19:25 | <@ToxicFrog> | I mean, the creator probably includes the designer as a tool, but you can run 'designer-qt4' as a standalone program as well. |
| 19:26 | <&McMartin> | Creator can *invoke* the designer |
| 19:26 | <&McMartin> | But you should be able to invoke the Designer and the Assistant as separate apps |
| 19:37 | < Tarinaky> | It seems not. |
| 19:37 | <&McMartin> | OK, that's new in 4.7 or 4.8 then, because 4.6 certainly did. |
| 19:37 | < Tarinaky> | I suspect if I was supposed to be able to it wouldn't be this hard :p |
| 19:39 | <&McMartin> | You totally are |
| 19:40 | < Tarinaky> | I'm going to go put dinner on now |
| 19:40 | < Tarinaky> | Or I wont get chance to eat this evening. |
| 19:42 | <&McMartin> | AHA |
| 19:42 | <&McMartin> | Qt Designer is not installed by default. |
| 19:42 | <&McMartin> | Do a custom install. |
| 19:43 | <&McMartin> | You Want Qt Designer, For Serious. |
| 19:49 | < Tarinaky> | Okay. |
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| 19:59 | < gnolam> | http://picturesofpeoplescanningqrcodes.tumblr.com/ |
| 20:12 | < Tarinaky> | "No posts yet" xD |
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| 21:34 | | * McMartin kicks Win8 in the teeth |
| 21:35 | | * ToxicFrog deploys scala.actors._, obsoletes all networking code in his project~ |
| 21:35 | <&McMartin> | There is no distinction in the Metro web browser between "something's imperfect about this SSL certificate, like, say, it's self-signed and an internal network" and "your network is down" and "the server is down" |
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| 21:38 | <@Tamber> | "But that's useless technical details that will only confuse the poor, precious little lusers!" |
| 21:40 | <&McMartin> | Actually, I think it's part of the general lockdown of the platform. |
| 21:41 | <&McMartin> | They're copying that aspect from Apple, and it's going to kill the shit out of Win8 if they don't relax it. |
| 21:41 | <@Tamber> | Certainly seems like they're trying to treat everything in the same stupid way as locked down tablets. |
| 21:41 | <@Tamber> | ("You mean your desktop isn't a touch-enabled tablet? Oh, poor you. Tough luck.") |
| 21:42 | <&McMartin> | Metro specifically has that |
| 21:42 | <&McMartin> | As in, anything that isn't in lockdown mode has to run on the Desktop component |
| 21:42 | <&McMartin> | So, uh, might as well stick with Win7 |
| 21:42 | <&McMartin> | You can't even run VS2011 Express without the MS equivalent of an ADC membership |
| 21:42 | <@ToxicFrog> | Ok, remember how the other day I said type erasure is one of those things that annoys me in the abstract but almost never comes up in practice? |
| 21:42 | <@ToxicFrog> | It just came up in practice |
| 21:42 | <@ToxicFrog> | FUCK YOUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU |
| 21:42 | <@Tamber> | TF: See, you doom yourself by saying things like "Oh, you never see that in practise" |
| 21:43 | <&McMartin> | Heeeee |
| 21:43 | <@Tamber> | McM: So they're basically copying Apple, badly? Or is it at least their own flavour of dumbing down? :) |
| 21:43 | <&McMartin> | Tamber: It's a cynical calculation instead of cultic overload that does it |
| 21:44 | <&McMartin> | They have a genuine market pressure to do what Apple is doing at will. |
| 21:44 | <&McMartin> | That is, MS has always held that tablets are mini-PCs, and has finally gotten sick of having three internal OS teams copying each other's work badly and requiring three dev environments &c |
| 21:44 | <@Tamber> | Which is fair enough, really. |
| 21:44 | <&McMartin> | Yeah. |
| 21:44 | <&McMartin> | The problem is, that's a really hard problem. |
| 21:45 | <@Tamber> | *nods* |
| 21:45 | <&McMartin> | Given the problem, their solution isn't too bad - but I'd as soon dodge the problem and stick with a real desktop OS |
| 21:45 | <&McMartin> | Even with all this, it still offends me less than Lion~ |
| 21:45 | <@ToxicFrog> | Tamber: apparently! |
| 21:45 | | * Tamber had a moment like that at 'work' today. |
| 21:45 | | * ToxicFrog kicks the JVM in the groin over and over and over again |
| 21:46 | <@Tamber> | Rummaging through a pallet of machines to find hard-drives for some stuff that was going out that day. Looking for: SATA. Finding: plenty of PATA. Smartarse comment: "Oh, next, we'll be tripping over a bloody SCSI drive!" |
| 21:46 | <@Tamber> | ...next machine to sort? Yup. SCSI. |
| 21:46 | | You're now known as TheWatcher |
| 21:46 | < celticminstrel> | What offends you about Lion? |
| 21:47 | <@Tamber> | (Or rather, it was "Well, at least it's not SCSI.") |
| 21:47 | <&McMartin> | celticminstrel: Its failure to grasp that touchscreens, touchpads, and mice require different gesture sets to operate. |
| 21:47 | | * Tamber wouldn't mind having a touch-screen monitor for some things. |
| 21:48 | <@TheWatcher> | Tamber: arm strain >.> |
| 21:49 | <@Tamber> | I didn't say for everything. There are just some things that I really wish I could reach out and poke at, instead of rummaging with mouse. :p |
| 21:49 | <@Tamber> | Plus, I spend most of my time using the keyboard *anyway* |
| 21:49 | <@TheWatcher> | Well, true. There's things I want 3D multipoint gesture recognition for... |
| 21:50 | | * Tamber can't aim worth a damn with a mouse. Ends up circling things repeatedly until it gets close enough to hit. <_> |
| 21:50 | <@Tamber> | Or looking like my mouse-pointer's flying into a gravitational well... *fly over it, slow, reverse, fly over it again by a little less... repeat* |
| 21:56 | <@Tamber> | Speaking of gravity, my bed calls. *slowly drifts off, away from the keyboard, accellerating all the way* Night! |
| 21:57 | < RichyB> | Sleep well. |
| 21:57 | < RichyB> | McMartin, this situation vaguely reminds me of UAC. |
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| 21:58 | < RichyB> | With Vista, Windows developed an insane policy of "Cancel or Allow? on ALL THE THINGS" |
| 21:58 | <&McMartin> | Yeah, kinda |
| 21:59 | <&McMartin> | Except Win7 has UAC even more pervasive and it's at the same level of intrusion as, well, sudo |
| 21:59 | < RichyB> | I wonder if "Tablet-ify ALL THE THINGS!" is just a straightforward implementation of their SOP. |
| 21:59 | <&McMartin> | If so, Win9 and Windows Phone 9 will both be pretty awesome~ |
| 21:59 | < RichyB> | That was my next thought. :) |
| 22:01 | <&McMartin> | There are some serious issues with multimonitor right now that I think they're going to need to work out before general release. |
| 22:02 | < RichyB> | Oh. Windows has always historically been pretty good at multimonitor though. |
| 22:03 | <&McMartin> | Yeah |
| 22:03 | <&McMartin> | That's why I think they'll fix this |
| 22:03 | <&McMartin> | But yeah, right now it's using "swipe from corner" as various WM actions |
| 22:03 | <&McMartin> | That's a Bad Move (tm) on multimonitor |
| 22:03 | < celticminstrel> | Is "same level of intrusion as sudo" a good thing or a bad thing? |
| 22:03 | <&McMartin> | celticminstrel: "best of breed", really. |
| 22:04 | <&McMartin> | You want *some* intrusion - putting a dumbass-alert barriers in front of system-destroying actions is a good thing |
| 22:04 | < RichyB> | Good. There isn't any well-known way to do any better. |
| 22:04 | < celticminstrel> | Heh. |
| 22:04 | < RichyB> | It also helps encourage application developers to avoid needing root permissions when they can get away without them. :) |
| 22:04 | <&McMartin> | Ding ding ding~ |
| 22:05 | <&McMartin> | And honestly, that was half of what was wrong with Vista. |
| 22:05 | <&McMartin> | All the Vista developers were WinXP developers. |
| 22:05 | <&McMartin> | While the Win7 developers were mostly Vista developers who had taken the necessary beatings. |
| 22:05 | < RichyB> | Yeah, every Win32 app developer on the planet used to just go "all the permission issues go away if I mark this as admin, fuck it." |
| 22:06 | <&McMartin> | I find it mildly alarming how much my opinion of MS has softened over the past decade. =P |
| 22:07 | <@ToxicFrog> | Well |
| 22:07 | <@ToxicFrog> | They do seem to have actually learned some things, and there's no longer that sense of crushing doom that everything will be microsoft forever that characterized the late 90s |
| 22:07 | < RichyB> | I get that. Almost as if they're just a vast horde of confused and imperfect human beings doing their individual best in a cold and hostile universe. |
| 22:09 | < RichyB> | ToxicFrog, the presence of the option to say, "fuck it, I'll go write web apps on a MacBook for a living instead," makes MS a lot more palatable. |
| 22:09 | <&McMartin> | Or even on an Ubuntu box |
| 22:10 | < RichyB> | I was at PloneConf last November with a Ubuntu box. I felt slightly outnumbered by the OS X mafia. |
| 22:10 | <&McMartin> | Heh |
| 22:10 | < RichyB> | No panic, though. |
| 22:11 | < RichyB> | They're hipper, but their plastic yuppie OS isn't useful to run on prod servers and we, frankly, out-beard them. |
| 22:12 | <@jerith> | I've grown quite fond of OSX on my laptop. |
| 22:12 | <@jerith> | It will never live on my servers, though. |
| 22:12 | <@jerith> | (For one thing, PinkFreud woudl point and laugh every time something broke.) |
| 22:13 | < RichyB> | Ever tried the "server" edition of OS X? |
| 22:13 | <@TheWatcher> | Pinky, point ang laugh? |
| 22:13 | < Namegduf> | Canceled. |
| 22:14 | < RichyB> | I have. It is not good. |
| 22:14 | < Namegduf> | They don't make it anymore. |
| 22:14 | <@TheWatcher> | Surely not. More like "mock thoroughly"~ |
| 22:14 | < RichyB> | Namegduf, thank goodness. :) |
| 22:15 | <@jerith> | He's told enough horror stories that he wouldn't need to mock. He'd just quote the timestamp of when he hit that exact issue and laugh. Or something. |
| 22:20 | < RichyB> | Completely unrelated issue: I am not fond of Microsoft Internet Explorer versions six through eight inclusive. |
| 22:21 | <@ToxicFrog> | s/versions six through eight inclusive// |
| 22:23 | < RichyB> | Yes. |
| 22:24 | <&McMartin> | I thought 8 was when they finally got acceptable CSS support |
| 22:25 | < RichyB> | 8 was when they finally got barely acceptable CSS support. |
| 22:26 | < RichyB> | 8 has a bunch of open bugs around boring corner-case things like, oh, files and HTTPS. |
| 22:26 | <&McMartin> | Heh |
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| 23:17 | <~Vornicus> | 9 on the other hand seems to be actually vaguely sensible |
| 23:17 | < RichyB> | For now. However, 9 isn't going to be updated ever. |
| 23:18 | < RichyB> | No bug fixes will ever be made for IE9 other than security backports. |
| 23:18 | < RichyB> | Means that within the next few years we'll all be hating on IE9 as one more damn thing with a million stupid limitations that we have yet to run into. |
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| --- Log closed Wed Mar 07 00:00:19 2012 |