| --- Log opened Sat Mar 03 00:00:06 2012 |
| --- Day changed Sat Mar 03 2012 |
| 00:00 | <&McMartin> | Right, but the pleasure I assumed you referred to was using the language |
| 00:02 | < RichyB> | Half and half. Using the language, and also can you write a single codebase that runs a GUI on both platforms? |
| 00:02 | <&McMartin> | Heh |
| 00:02 | <&McMartin> | Yeah, Qt has spoiled me so hard |
| 00:03 | < RichyB> | AIUI some of the GUI stuff doesn't exist on the Mono side, but I don't know whether the missing things actually matter at all. |
| 00:03 | < RichyB> | Qt is an odd one. |
| 00:03 | <&McMartin> | Mono has WinForms but not WPF, AIUI |
| 00:04 | < RichyB> | WinForms is the one that people actually like, right? ;) |
| 00:04 | <&McMartin> | WinForms is decent but not great. WPF is amazing if it matches what you want - it's a pretty sophisticated MVC framework with reflection tying into objects - but utterly useless otherwise |
| 00:04 | < RichyB> | Good to know. Thank you. |
| 00:04 | < RichyB> | I'm pretty certain that Qt would always be the first thing I'd reach for except for the fact that C++ makes me sad and nervous. |
| 00:05 | < RichyB> | I'm not sure if it counts as ironic or not, but there seem to be *way* more high-level language bindings for Gtk than for Qt. :/ |
| 00:06 | <&McMartin> | Part of it is that Qt is about 75% of an OS, and Gtk is a widget set. |
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| 00:08 | < RichyB> | It helps a lot that Gtk and GLib are pretty much entirely ANSI-C and therefore easy to write bindings for. |
| 00:09 | < RichyB> | I'm not entirely unsympathetic to the "provide 75% of an OS" approach that Qt takes, though. To be honest, most languages' semistandard libraries do exactly that. |
| 00:09 | <&McMartin> | Yeah, and Qt predates C++ having a semistandard library~ |
| 00:10 | < RichyB> | e.g. the libraries that come with Python, the libraries that come with Ruby, the Java libraries... all do. |
| 00:10 | <@ToxicFrog> | Now that I've used both, I have to say, Qt kicks the shit out of GTK+ |
| 00:10 | <@ToxicFrog> | You're right about the bindings, though :/ |
| 00:10 | < RichyB> | I suppose so. Arguably, Qt *comprises* a semistandard library for C++. :) |
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| 00:54 | <@ToxicFrog> | Motherfuckingwindows |
| 01:05 | <@himi> | What's it done to you today? |
| 01:05 | <@ToxicFrog> | CRLF |
| 01:07 | | You're now known as TheWatcher[T-2] |
| 01:14 | | You're now known as TheWatcher[zZzZ] |
| 01:21 | < Stalker> | Curlyfries! |
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| 04:26 | | * Vornicus instruments his euler 60 solution, is glad he knows math, is even more glad he implemented a cache. 14x cache hits on the prime pair dictionary. |
| 04:29 | | * ToxicFrog knees the JVM right in the tail recursion |
| 04:31 | | * Vornicus fiddles with it. Nope. Doesn't see anything more he can do. |
| 04:33 | <&McMartin> | I'm glad I'm not the only person who thinks tail call optimization is not optional. |
| 04:34 | <@ToxicFrog> | Yeah. |
| 04:35 | <@ToxicFrog> | Scala does some scary tricks to make it possible in certain circumstances (and gives you the @tailrec annotation, which makes it a compile-time error if TCO cannot be applied to that method), but it doesn't have general tail call optimization. |
| 04:35 | <&McMartin> | It can't: see aforementioned. |
| 04:36 | <&McMartin> | I can't even do the Gambit-C implementation of it, because there's a hard length limit on method length. |
| 04:36 | <@ToxicFrog> | Yeah, I know it can't, hence the kneeing. |
| 04:37 | <&McMartin> | No, but Gambit is a Scheme to C compiler and *does*, even if the underlying C compiler does not. |
| 04:37 | <&McMartin> | Gambit makes every basic block in the program its own branch of a gigantic switch statement/computed goto and manages the stack by hand. |
| 04:37 | <&McMartin> | But because of the JVM's method size limit, that trick won't work for JVM-targeted code. |
| 04:37 | <@ToxicFrog> | (there's also type erasure, but that's the kind of thing that annoys me in theory but never comes up in practice, whereas the lack of general TCO comes up several times a program at least) |
| 04:37 | <~Vornicus> | type erasure? |
| 04:38 | <&McMartin> | Compiler adds spurious downcasts that the compiler has already proven are unnecessary. |
| 04:40 | <~Vornicus> | SO like it's casting to the undertemplated versions of vector, etc? |
| 04:40 | <@ToxicFrog> | Vornicus: parameterized types like List[String] compile down to List, due to - AFAICT - a pathological need to maintain ABI compatibility with Java modules compiled before generics were a feature of the language. |
| 04:40 | <~Vornicus> | heh |
| 04:40 | <@ToxicFrog> | Which means that anything that depends on runtime type information can only use the base type, not the specialization. |
| 04:41 | <@ToxicFrog> | For Scala in particular, this means match...case can't distinguish between, say, List[Int] and List[String] |
| 04:54 | | * ToxicFrog tries to come up with a good way of defining new user commands |
| 05:03 | <~Vornicus> | what are you working on now? |
| 05:03 | <@ToxicFrog> | KSP editing tools. |
| 05:14 | <~Vornicus> | aha |
| 05:16 | <@ToxicFrog> | I've already got a semi-automatic savegame cleaner; now I'm working on a teleporter. |
| 06:25 | | * Vornicus tries to figure out how to actually use cython |
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| 07:04 | <@ToxicFrog> | I have a massive static typing boner. |
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| 07:09 | <~Vornicus> | Feels good to get back to that once in a while, doesn't it |
| 07:09 | <@ToxicFrog> | Oooooh yeah. |
| 07:10 | <@ToxicFrog> | It actually took me a long time to realize how much I love static typing. |
| 07:11 | <@ToxicFrog> | For the longest time I thought I hated, because all of the statically typed languages I'd used were terrible. |
| 07:24 | | * Derakon prods brain about ZMC. |
| 07:25 | <&Derakon> | What kinds of abilities should a sword made of ice give you? |
| 07:25 | <&Derakon> | Obviously some kind of enemy-freezing strike. |
| 07:25 | <&Derakon> | Also a closing attack where you skate along a frozen path generated by the blade. |
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| 12:07 | | * TheWatcher takes a moment to curse everyone and everything related to the utter fucking mess that are character encoding 'standards' and the idiotic plethora thereof. |
| 13:19 | < gnolam> | The great thing about standards is that there are so many to choose from... |
| 13:20 | <@TheWatcher> | It would be funny if that wasn't true |
| 13:24 | <@TheWatcher> | Also, I think I may be insane or something - I'm writing a small script to recursively scan a directory tree looking for files, and prompt the user to retain or delete the files if they do not appear in a separate file list. Nothing crazy about that. But I'm commenting it extensively as I go along. |
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| 19:42 | <@ToxicFrog> | Oh god yes pattern matching unf unf unf |
| 19:46 | <@Jasever> | HHHHHNNNNNNNNG- |
| 19:48 | <@Tamber> | ...oh, gord, you got sticky in my regex! D: |
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| 23:21 | | * gnolam gives in, buys an Arduino |
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| 23:33 | < Tarinaky> | http://pastebin.com/fax7sLf2 << An acquantance of a friend is trying to teach C++ to 17/18 year olds in a school. |
| 23:33 | < Tarinaky> | Or a friend of an acquantance idk which |
| 23:34 | < Tarinaky> | Does anyone want to help organise a care package of C++ worksheets? |
| 23:34 | < Tarinaky> | To be airdropped in like food aid. |
| 23:43 | <@ToxicFrog> | This is a terrible idea |
| 23:44 | < Tarinaky> | You'd rather they considered with that guy teaching them to program? |
| 23:45 | < Tarinaky> | You can write unmaintainable spagetti code in any language. |
| 23:49 | <@ToxicFrog> | Parse error in "You'd rather they considered with that guy teaching them to program?" |
| 23:49 | < Tarinaky> | *continued |
| 23:49 | < Tarinaky> | Sorry, I'm rather tired. |
| 23:50 | <@TheWatcher> | I'd rather they use a language that isn't neophyte-hostile |
| 23:50 | <@ToxicFrog> | to clarify, the "terrible idea" is teaching programming in C++ |
| 23:50 | <@ToxicFrog> | Not deploying C++ worksheets - that's damage control |
| 23:50 | < Tarinaky> | There are several terrible ideas. |
| 23:50 | < Tarinaky> | Damage control is not a bad policy. |
| 23:50 | | * ToxicFrog actually looks at the pastebin |
| 23:51 | <@ToxicFrog> | :gonk@tailrec: |
| 23:51 | < Tarinaky> | When a ship starts sinking there's not much point complaining about the fatal flaws :p |
| 23:52 | <@ToxicFrog> | At this point I'm torn between "damage control is needed" and "there's nothing you can do; save your energy for the living" |
| 23:52 | < Tarinaky> | Giggle. |
| 23:57 | < Tarinaky> | "First we rescue the living; then we bury the death; then we can mourn and rebuild." |
| 23:57 | < Tarinaky> | -- politician of some south american country after suffering the worst earth quake in their history. |
| 23:57 | | Anna is now known as Ling |
| --- Log closed Sun Mar 04 00:00:14 2012 |