| --- Log opened Fri Jan 27 00:00:15 2012 |
| 00:01 | <&McMartin> I wonder if MIDI-to-USB connectors work with the joysticks~ |
| 00:01 | < maoranma> | Maybe, but I haven't ever had one to test with |
| 00:02 | < gnolam> | Someone should resurrect the TAC-2. |
| 00:02 | < gnolam> | A USB interface is all it's missing. |
| 00:03 | < maoranma> | This thing? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TAC-2 |
| 00:06 | < gnolam> | Yep! |
| 00:07 | < gnolam> | (Didn't know it had its own wiki article) |
| 00:07 | < maoranma> | http://www.raphnet.net/electronique/atari_usb/index_en.php |
| 00:07 | < gnolam> | Almost indestructible. |
| 00:07 | < maoranma> | It's a DE-9 connector, same as the Genesis and Atari |
| 00:08 | < maoranma> | Infact, I used a Genesis controller on my Atari when my joystick broke |
| 00:11 | < maoranma> | s/broke/masticated by a very naughty cockerspaniel |
| 00:17 | | * Vornicus wants to plug his commodore 64 controller into his computer, for authentic gameplay nostalgia. |
| 00:17 | <&McMartin> I can't remember the name of the stick I had |
| 00:18 | <&McMartin> Other than that I think Kraft made it. |
| 00:18 | <~Vornicus> Kraft... the cheese company. |
| 00:19 | <&McMartin> Not sure if it was that Kraft. |
| 00:19 | <~Vornicus> THat was meant to be a question, actually. |
| 00:20 | <~Vornicus> There's apparently kraftelektronik in Sweden and kraft music. |
| 00:21 | <&McMartin> It was beige, smallish, had a square button in the back left, and a thin black control stick that clicked a little when it hit the right spot in its square gate. |
| 00:21 | <&McMartin> I also had a ludicrous flight stick with suction cups so you could stick it to your desk, with something like four buttons all of which were the same one. |
| 00:22 | | Derakon[AFK] is now known as Derakon |
| 00:22 | < maoranma> | I think Kraft might be a name |
| 00:22 | <&Derakon> IIRC the controller I used for our C64 was black with some kind of foam grip, and had two buttons on the stick: one trigger, one thumb (on the top of the stip). |
| 00:23 | < maoranma> | http://members.optusnet.com.au/spacetaxi64/MAIN/JOYSTICK-MUSEUM.htm |
| 00:24 | < maoranma> | You'll probably find it on there |
| 00:24 | <&McMartin> It was a Kraft, tan-based. |
| 00:24 | | * McMartin did some image searches. |
| 00:24 | <&McMartin> Also, oh man |
| 00:24 | <&McMartin> Space Taxi. |
| 00:25 | <&McMartin> I lost *so much time* to that game. |
| 00:25 | < maoranma> | Like, tan, or white but owned by a smoker for too long tan? |
| 00:25 | | * gnolam receives official research credits. |
| 00:25 | < gnolam> | Woot! |
| 00:25 | <&McMartin> http://www.ebay.com/itm/KRAFT-joystick-commodore-vic20-64-ATARI-2600-BOX-and-ins tructions-WORKS-/120838001101?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item1c228191cd |
| 00:25 | <&McMartin> That's it on the fight of that pic. |
| 00:26 | < gnolam> | As author #2, even. |
| 00:26 | <&McMartin> gnolam: Sweet |
| 00:26 | <&McMartin> What topic? |
| 00:26 | < gnolam> | Radioecology. |
| 00:27 | <&Derakon> I'm still hoping to get listed on papers published by people using the microscope I've written so much software for. |
| 00:27 | <&Derakon> Strangely I don't think anyone's managed to finish and get published a paper since I started working here. ?.? |
| 00:27 | < gnolam> | Derakon: There might be a connection there! ;) |
| 00:27 | <&McMartin> Clearly at the wrong part of UCSF~ |
| 00:28 | <&Derakon> Gnolam: tsk. |
| 00:28 | <&McMartin> My friend Christina's been in serious crunch mode for some time there. |
| 00:28 | <&Derakon> At Parnassus? |
| 00:29 | <&McMartin> She's primarily associated with the Buck; I'm not actually sure which department she's in at UCSF but she has a twin appointment between there and the Buck. |
| 00:29 | <&Derakon> I'm not familiar with that particular bit of jargon. |
| 00:30 | <&McMartin> Buck Institute in Novato. |
| 00:30 | <&McMartin> Not jargon; a proper name |
| 00:30 | <&Derakon> Ah. |
| 00:30 | <&McMartin> (Nice building, too; I.M. Pei was the architect) |
| 00:31 | | Number3 is now known as ShellNinja |
| 00:33 | < maoranma> | I'll never be cool or important enough to know the architect of a building I happen to be in |
| 00:33 | <&McMartin> Well. I.M. Pei was a famous architect. |
| 00:33 | <@ToxicFrog> | Y5m |
| 00:33 | <@ToxicFrog> | Hrm, even |
| 00:33 | <@ToxicFrog> | Thing that's giving me the most trouble: proper display of picked-up items in the client. |
| 00:34 | < maoranma> | All though, fun fact, after the annex was added to my highschool, it spelled out COX on the map, which for us, was close enough to be terribly humourous to us |
| 00:34 | <&Derakon> What's this, TF? Felt? |
| 00:35 | <@ToxicFrog> | ...actually, no, that's easy, just tedious. |
| 00:35 | <@ToxicFrog> | The hard part is properly handling dropping them. |
| 00:35 | <@ToxicFrog> | Yes. |
| 00:40 | <&Derakon> I forget, what is Felt implemented in? |
| 00:40 | <&Derakon> (And why do I have the sudden urge to make my own implementation in Python/WX/Pyro?) |
| 00:40 | <@ToxicFrog> | Lua/Qt |
| 00:41 | <@ToxicFrog> | Although you could implement a client in anything |
| 00:41 | | * Derakon nods. |
| 00:41 | <&Derakon> What are you using for passing data around? |
| 00:42 | <@ToxicFrog> | After some initial toying with JSON I rolled my own text-based serialization format |
| 00:42 | <&Derakon> Hm, okay. |
| 00:42 | | Attilla [Obsolete@Nightstar-d968f105.as43234.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 121 seconds] |
| 00:43 | <&Derakon> And it's basically a networked whiteboard with hidden elements, shuffle-able stacks, and the like, right? |
| 00:44 | <@ToxicFrog> | (in python terms, it supports booleans, numbers, strings, None, dictionaries, lists, constructor invocations, and references-by-ID) |
| 00:44 | <@ToxicFrog> | (the latter two were the point at which I said "ok, implementing this on top of JSON will be just as much work as rolling my own and will introduce another dependency") |
| 00:46 | <@ToxicFrog> | Yes. It has no understanding of game rules or the like (beyond what is implemented in individual pieces for convenience; the Descent module, for example, displays monster stats on mouseover) |
| 00:47 | <@ToxicFrog> | Although "whiteboard" isn't quite right because that implies arbitrary drawing capability, which this doesn't have |
| 00:47 | <&Derakon> Though you could probably implement such if you wanted to. |
| 00:47 | <&Derakon> Customized on-the-fly token generation. |
| 00:47 | | * Vornicus wants to play Pictionary |
| 00:47 | <~Vornicus> :P |
| 00:48 | <&Derakon> Heh. |
| 00:48 | <&Derakon> You ever play Telephone Pictionary? |
| 00:48 | | * Vornicus never heard of that. |
| 00:48 | <&Derakon> It's Telephone, except you alternate between a sentence describing the picture you're looking at, and a picture representing the sentence you're reading. |
| 00:48 | <@ToxicFrog> | Yeah, although it'd need some support from the server, I think |
| 00:49 | <&Derakon> So e.g. I write "The quick brown fox jumped over the lazy dog", TF does his best to draw that, you look at the drawing and try to describe it in words, etc. |
| 00:49 | <@ToxicFrog> | And more relevantly support from the UI ;.; |
| 00:49 | <&Derakon> I now have pretty decent UI implementation knowledge. I just lack Lua/Qt knowledge~ |
| 00:50 | <@ToxicFrog> | If someone else wants to write a Pictionary or 1kBWC module that implements the types needed for arbitrary drawing I'll incorporate it, but personally, Fuck That Noise~ |
| 00:50 | | gnolam [lenin@Nightstar-202a5047.priv.bahnhof.se] has quit [[NS] Quit: Z?] |
| 00:51 | <@ToxicFrog> | All that aside, there are actually some decent networked whiteboard programs already out there. |
| 00:51 | <@ToxicFrog> | The niche I want to fill with Felt is networked card tables, ie, manipulation of tokens rather than drawing of shapes. |
| 00:51 | <&Derakon> Yeah. |
| 00:51 | <&Derakon> And some specific common actions like shuffling and drawing. |
| 00:51 | <&Derakon> Er, drawing from decks. |
| 00:51 | <@ToxicFrog> | Yeah. |
| 00:52 | <@ToxicFrog> | Although that's all on a per-type basis; Felt doesn't implement that, game.felt.Deck does. |
| 00:52 | <@ToxicFrog> | So you can easily install new module-specific behaviours. |
| 00:52 | <&Derakon> Naturally. |
| 00:52 | <@ToxicFrog> | (the actual niche I want to fill is networked Descent: Journeys in the Dark, but that module isn't on github because holy copyright infringement) |
| 00:53 | <&Derakon> I wouldn't mind trying to get Agricola working in it. |
| 00:53 | < maoranma> | What's felt? |
| 00:53 | <&Derakon> There's already an online Agricola system though. |
| 00:53 | <&Derakon> Except it's all in Javascript IIRC. |
| 00:54 | <@ToxicFrog> | maoranma: networked card table program I'm working on. |
| 00:54 | < maoranma> | Oh |
| 00:54 | < maoranma> | Is it like a virtual table top environment? |
| 00:54 | <@ToxicFrog> | Derakon: what kind of pieces does Agricola require? |
| 00:55 | <&Derakon> (Oddly enough, the play-agricola.com website is also Holy Copyright Infringement but the game designers appear to not care a whit) |
| 00:55 | <@ToxicFrog> | maoranma: yeah, pretty much - geared at playing card and board games rather than RPGs. |
| 00:55 | < maoranma> | How extensible do you plan on making it? |
| 00:55 | <&Derakon> TF: a shared game board with cards (revealed and unrevealed) and tokens, and each player has a placard and two hands of cards as well as more tokens. |
| 00:56 | <&Derakon> Here: http://play-agricola.com/Agricola/GameLogs/allturnserver.php?x=117726 |
| 00:56 | <@ToxicFrog> | maoranma: very. It has no intrinsic concept of rules; it's meant to emulate an actual table, so the rules enforcement is all on the players. |
| 00:56 | <&Derakon> ...hm, that may be a bad example since the central board looks off. |
| 00:56 | <&Derakon> ...or maybe the log just doesn't properly display each new round card. Bah. |
| 00:57 | <@ToxicFrog> | So for any given game, all you need are graphics for the pieces and gestures for whatever interactions with them the game requires (which in a great many games is just "pick up", "drop", "roll die", "shuffle deck", "draw from deck", and "reveal/hide object") |
| 00:57 | <&Derakon> The large green central area that's divided up into a grid is supposed to get one new card each round. |
| 00:57 | < maoranma> | I like that idea, is it 3D or 2D? |
| 00:58 | <@ToxicFrog> | 2d. |
| 00:59 | <@ToxicFrog> | Derakon: that could probably be implemented fairly quickly with minimal code - a pile of PNGs, a box script that creates Tokens, Boards, Decks, and Fields - wouldn't even need custom types unless you wanted to get fancy. |
| 01:00 | <&Derakon> I figured as much. |
| 01:00 | < maoranma> | I like fancy |
| 01:00 | < maoranma> | Put more fancy in it okaithnx |
| 01:00 | <&Derakon> The main thing is that there's several hundred cards counting all the expansions now. |
| 01:00 | <&Derakon> That, and you'd probably want a fancy way to compact other players' placards when you aren't looking at them. |
| 01:01 | <&Derakon> Like, iconize them, and show them when the player mouses over the icon. |
| 01:01 | < maoranma> | Is this hosted somewhere? I wanna beta test gimmee |
| 01:02 | <@ToxicFrog> | It's not even at alpha stage yet. |
| 01:02 | <@ToxicFrog> | It's on github if you want to gaze in horror at it. |
| 01:02 | <@ToxicFrog> | (toxicfrog/felt) |
| 01:02 | <@ToxicFrog> | Derakon: that would require some client code, nothing on the server |
| 01:03 | <@ToxicFrog> | ...actually, no, it would require at least a type declaration on the server so that the client knows what to instantiate. |
| 01:03 | < maoranma> | Sweet, lua! I never learned lua |
| 01:03 | < maoranma> | Despite playing WoW as long as I did |
| 01:04 | <@ToxicFrog> | It's a pretty sweet language but this project is, arguably, larger than is well suited for it |
| 01:04 | | * McMartin is considering shifting some of his ill-considered Python work into OCaml. |
| 01:10 | <@ToxicFrog> | I may one day rewrite much of this in Scala; that's definitely what I'll be using if I ever revisit spellcast. |
| 01:13 | <&Derakon> Oh, and it's client/server instead of client/client? |
| 01:13 | <@ToxicFrog> | Yes. |
| 01:13 | <@ToxicFrog> | The first design was client/client, in the end I decided that was just too painful. |
| 01:14 | <@ToxicFrog> | (I mean, it wouldn't be at all hard to wrap it in a UI that made it look client-client, where you click "host" and it starts the server and then starts the client and connects to localhost, Quake-style) |
| 01:15 | <@ToxicFrog> | (but under the hood, there's a single authoritative server that handles all of the game state related stuff and then some number of connected clients that handle display and user interaction) |
| 01:26 | <@Alek> | hm. |
| 01:26 | <@Alek> | maoranma keeps reminding me of !CAPS |
| 01:28 | | eckse [eckse@Nightstar-d36ad91f.dsl.sentex.ca] has joined #code |
| 01:35 | | * McMartin pokes at ocamllex |
| 02:03 | | * ToxicFrog deploys swift, brutal crushings to a poorly designed API |
| 02:03 | <&McMartin> APIs could learn much from ToxicFrog's crushings! |
| 02:03 | < maoranma> | ToxicFrog - EXP +13 |
| 02:03 | < maoranma> | ToxicFrog LVL UP! |
| 02:03 | <&McMartin> (Which API?) |
| 02:04 | < maoranma> | ToxicFrog INT +4, CODE +12, STR -3 |
| 02:06 | <&Derakon> ...this system has serious stat inflation issues. |
| 02:08 | < maoranma> | Derakon AGI -99, DERP +9001 |
| 02:09 | <&Derakon> I object. The DM is clearly using heavily weighted dice. |
| 02:09 | <&Derakon> Also, that's a cricket ball, not a d1000. |
| 02:09 | <&Derakon> (Also, this is what monsters that hit to drain level are for) |
| 02:10 | < maoranma> | Shh, I used a scaple and a magnifying glass |
| 02:10 | < maoranma> | What is that... a millihedron? |
| 02:14 | <&McMartin> kilohedron. |
| 02:14 | <&Derakon> Millihedron would have a thousandth of a side. |
| 02:14 | <@ToxicFrog> | McMartin: one I wrote myself last year, which somewhat detracts from the effect~ |
| 02:15 | <@ToxicFrog> | (the Felt client-side API for connecting to and communicating with the server) |
| 02:16 | | Noah [noah@Nightstar-85c29d67.pools.spcsdns.net] has joined #code |
| 02:16 | <@ToxicFrog> | (this is the "tedious" part of getting picking up, displaying, and dropping items to work properly) |
| 02:17 | <&Derakon> Why shouldn't pick up/drop be a combined action? |
| 02:17 | <&Derakon> It's basically "move object from one container to another", isn't it? |
| 02:18 | <@ToxicFrog> | ...yes, but it's generally easier on the user to be able to pick up the item and then drop it somewhere else |
| 02:18 | <@ToxicFrog> | Honestly I'm not sure how you would make it a combined action apart from click-drag |
| 02:19 | < Noah> | Uhg, telnet |
| 02:20 | < Noah> | : |
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| 02:21 | <&Derakon> Oh, sorry. |
| 02:21 | <&Derakon> I was thinking about pick up/drop from other clients' perspective. |
| 02:21 | <&Derakon> And the network transactions involved. |
| 02:21 | <@ToxicFrog> | Yeah, that's dead easy. |
| 02:21 | <&Derakon> Not the UI for a purely local action. |
| 02:21 | < maoranma> | Is there a message box? |
| 02:22 | <&Derakon> Which IMO should be "on mouse button down, find object under mouse. If object exists, object is grabbed. On mouse move, move object. On mouse button up, release object. If object is over a container, attach object to that container." |
| 02:22 | <@ToxicFrog> | Both the initial pickup (which just sets a flag on the item saying "so-and-so has picked this up", causing the client to make it glow in that player's colour) and the drop (which is a moveTo() method call) |
| 02:22 | < maoranma> | Just hide the item from everyone elses view and sent X picked up Y, etc |
| 02:22 | <&Derakon> Maoranma: yeah, the networked aspect of this is not the issue. |
| 02:22 | <&Derakon> Which was my misunderstanding. |
| 02:22 | < maoranma> | Does that prevent the other players from interacting with the object? |
| 02:22 | <@ToxicFrog> | See, I am not really a fan of drag actions in general; I prefer click once to pick up, click again to drop. |
| 02:23 | <@ToxicFrog> | (but the spiders are the same either way, really) |
| 02:23 | < maoranma> | ToxicFrog: If not using drag/drop, then ctrl clicking would help accidentaly moving |
| 02:23 | <&Derakon> You may not be a fan of drag actions, but they really are the standard for this kind of thing. |
| 02:24 | <@ToxicFrog> | ...not in most games I've played |
| 02:24 | < maoranma> | True, but the world won't end if it's not there, it just won't seem as polished |
| 02:25 | <&Derakon> Fair, we'll just see how it works in practice. |
| 02:26 | < maoranma> | But without drag/drop, click modifying will be very necessary to prevent accidental actions, vanilla clicks should do a whole lot, except maybe represent pointing at something |
| 02:27 | <@ToxicFrog> | Realistically, once the spiders are dealt with, either is easy to implement |
| 02:27 | < maoranma> | X points at Y. |
| 02:27 | < maoranma> | shouldn't do* |
| 02:28 | <@ToxicFrog> | (specifically, the spiders are this: the way the UI is handled right now is that keyboard/mouse events go through the Qt event dispatcher; the event handler for each object in the game translates that into a TK-independent event name, then sees if the object has an action bound to that event) |
| 02:28 | <@ToxicFrog> | (if so, it executes that action; if not it kicks the event back to Qt, which tries it on the object's container, and so on until it falls through the table surface) |
| 02:29 | <@ToxicFrog> | (however, "dropping an object" isn't really a normal keyboard/mouse event) |
| 02:29 | <@ToxicFrog> | (oh wait I think I see how to do this) |
| 02:29 | <&McMartin> (Button release is totally an event) |
| 02:29 | < maoranma> | voodoo? |
| 02:31 | <@ToxicFrog> | (Yes, it is, that isn't the problem here) |
| 02:32 | <@ToxicFrog> | (the problem is distinguishing "the user has clicked on you" from "the user is dropping an item on you") |
| 02:32 | < maoranma> | Collision detection? |
| 02:32 | <&Derakon> That should simply be a matter of whether or not there is an item that has been attached to, no? |
| 02:33 | <@ToxicFrog> | Oh wait I think this is an even easier approach |
| 02:33 | <@ToxicFrog> | The "item hovering under cursor" is implemented by actually moving the item around (in the QGraphicsScene; the item's location in the game world doesn't change until it's dropped) |
| 02:33 | <@ToxicFrog> | This means that any click will be intercepted by the item itself |
| 02:33 | <&Derakon> Actually, whatever you use to indicate that an object has been clicked on should probably be a list or something, since you could want to e.g. shift-click to grab a pile of objects and move them elsewhere. |
| 02:34 | <@ToxicFrog> | So I just need to have the default mouseEvent handler see if the item receiving the event is currently...wait, no, then it goes back to Qt and we lose it |
| 02:35 | <@ToxicFrog> | Back to the original plan: on receiving a mouseEvent, see if an item is currently held by the cursor, and if so emit a drop_ rather than mouse_ event. |
| 02:35 | <@ToxicFrog> | Derakon: no; the pile of objects would in fact be a single Deck or Pile or similar. |
| 02:35 | <&Derakon> Ah, that works. |
| 02:35 | <@ToxicFrog> | (Deck would probably rebind Pickup to shift-click and bind click to Draw Card) |
| 02:36 | <@ToxicFrog> | The general approach I'm taking here, in terms of default bindings, is that click is "do whatever the most common action is with this item" - roll a die, pick up a chess piece, draw from a deck, tap a magic card. |
| 02:36 | <@ToxicFrog> | shift-click is always pick up unless for some reason the item is not pickupable at all. |
| 02:37 | <@ToxicFrog> | And now, underwater hockey. |
| 02:37 | <&Derakon> Have fun! |
| 02:44 | | Derakon is now known as Derakon[AFK] |
| 03:03 | | Derakon[AFK] is now known as Derakon |
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| 03:51 | < maoranma> | Hmm, that's annoying. Picasa loses my EXIF comments when uploading to their server |
| 04:51 | <@ToxicFrog> | hrglbrgl |
| 04:51 | <&Derakon> Cough that pool water out. |
| 04:51 | <@ToxicFrog> | Ok, the issue here is that events don't fall through to the background. |
| 04:52 | <@ToxicFrog> | They go to the QGraphicsScene first, and then fall through all the objects and vanish. |
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| 06:47 | < maoranma> | https://plus.google.com/photos/103169995247739467981/photo/5702144934339009026 - Behold. Angry fruid salad. |
| 06:49 | <@Ling> | 401 |
| 06:49 | <@Tamber> | 403. |
| 06:49 | < maoranma> | srsly? |
| 06:49 | <@Tamber> | Yup |
| 06:49 | <@Tamber> | "We're sorry, but you do not have access to this page. That's all we know." |
| 06:50 | < maoranma> | https://plus.google.com/photos/103169995247739467981/albums/5701292096337954737? authkey=CKfmj9eT6tC4SA |
| 06:50 | < maoranma> | It lacks an authkey |
| 06:50 | <@Tamber> | Hehehehe. |
| 06:50 | < maoranma> | And for some reason, I can't get one for an individual image |
| 06:51 | < maoranma> | But |
| 06:51 | < maoranma> | https://plus.google.com/photos/103169995247739467981/albums/5701292096337954737/ 5702144934339009026?authkey=CKfmj9eT6tC4SA |
| 06:51 | < maoranma> | I can follow my own link and gererate one that way |
| 07:04 | < maoranma> | God minecraft, y u so laggy |
| 07:04 | < maoranma> | Renders fine, until it has to write to disk then it's like WOAH NELLY |
| 07:04 | < maoranma> | IMMA WRITE TO DISK AND STOP RENDERING COZ IM JAWVA |
| 07:12 | < froztbyte> | haha |
| 07:18 | < maoranma> | Well fuck that, I'm making a ramdisk for minecraft |
| 07:34 | < maoranma> | God, fuck you flash, stop crashing Chrome |
| 07:34 | < maoranma> | Just started doing this today |
| 07:34 | <@Tamber> | Flash, being a disaster? Say it ain't so! ;) |
| 07:36 | <@Ling> | Well damn, X stopped accepting mouse input :/ |
| 07:37 | <@Tamber> | <xwindowsystem> The defacto substandard |
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| 07:46 | < maoranma> | wow minecraft |
| 07:47 | < maoranma> | You are running directly from ram |
| 07:47 | < maoranma> | And you still suck |
| 07:48 | < maoranma> | It loads and saves quick as hell |
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| 08:49 | | maoranma [maoranma@Nightstar-85c29d67.pools.spcsdns.net] has quit [Connection reset by peer] |
| 08:59 | | You're now known as TheWatcher |
| 09:16 | | * TheWatcher eyes this code, ughs, wonders which bit to attack next |
| 09:16 | <@jerith> | TheWatcher: The Most Significant Bit, obviously. |
| 09:17 | <&McMartin> Burn |
| 09:17 | <@TheWatcher> | The problem then becomes /which end is the MSB on/? Blasted littleendians, subverting things |
| 09:17 | | * McMartin specializes in techniques like recursion and condescension |
| 09:37 | <@himi> | I wonder what endianness the first 8-bit-byte machine was |
| 09:44 | <&McMartin> Dunno, but the 6502 and z80 were both little-endian. |
| 09:51 | | * gnolam eyes LeonardoSpectrum. |
| 09:52 | < gnolam> | Take the smallest legible font you can find. Now shrink it further to ~50% of its original size without any filtering. Then use it everywhere. |
| 10:23 | | Lowpass is now known as Tarinaky |
| 10:33 | | Rhamphoryncus [rhamph@Nightstar-5697f7e2.abhsia.telus.net] has quit [Client exited] |
| 10:39 | <@Tamber> | gnolam, in low-contrast colours, naturally? |
| 10:40 | < gnolam> | Black on gray. |
| 10:44 | | * TheWatcher flails at this SQL query |
| 10:46 | <@himi> | What's the problem? |
| 10:46 | <@himi> | I mean, aside from having to use SQL |
| 10:47 | <@TheWatcher> | statements have ids, cohorts have ids, statements are associated with cohorts and each association has an id. students get cohort ids, and students perform sorts. I need to determine whether a given statement has been used in a sort performed by a student in any cohort the statement is associated with. I think I can just join the whole lot together and see if any rows drop out, but I have a feeling it will get inefficient quickly |
| 10:49 | <@himi> | This is a common query? |
| 10:49 | <@himi> | And relatively static tables? |
| 10:50 | <@himi> | You might be able to get away with a targeted index of some sort - not sure what would be support with your RDBMS, but probably you could do something |
| 10:51 | <@TheWatcher> | It's used in the admin interface for this system, while generating the table containing the list of defined statements (which is paginated, so there's ~20 calls per page) as well as when validating edit/delete requests. It's not a big deal, so efficient probably doesn't matter I guess *shrug* |
| 10:53 | <@himi> | Yeah, I'd probably not bother optimising it much until you see issues |
| 10:55 | <@himi> | . . . generating a table? Is that a view, or a select into kind of thing? |
| 10:55 | <@TheWatcher> | No, a html table |
| 10:55 | <@himi> | Aha |
| 10:56 | <@TheWatcher> | (yey, ambiguous terminology) |
| 10:57 | <@himi> | So statements are templates of some sort, and students are grouped via cohort? |
| 10:57 | <@TheWatcher> | Ever hear od Q sort methodology? |
| 10:57 | <@TheWatcher> | *of |
| 10:57 | <@himi> | Nope |
| 10:58 | <@himi> | Aha |
| 10:58 | <@himi> | The wiki knows all |
| 10:59 | <@himi> | Okay, that makes your description less obscure, but I think the answer is probably still appropriate |
| 10:59 | <@TheWatcher> | I'm writing a webapp that students use to perform q sorts. They're expected to do them twice a year, each year during their degree, and the sorts compared using Shrinkology Tools by someone else. |
| 11:00 | | * himi nods |
| 11:00 | <@himi> | Make it work, and don't optimise it until someone complains |
| 11:00 | | * TheWatcher nod |
| 11:00 | <@himi> | The Lazy Coder's Guide to the Universe |
| 11:01 | <@TheWatcher> | Make it work, make it work right, make it work fast ¬¬ |
| 11:02 | <@himi> | Hey, I was always taught that making it work /right/ was the same as making it work ;-P |
| 11:03 | <@himi> | I guess if you're working in a Uni getting it right is optional ;-P |
| 11:03 | <@TheWatcher> | :P so was I, I was just quoting those whacky agile developers |
| 11:03 | <@himi> | heh |
| 11:03 | <@himi> | Crazy bastards |
| 11:07 | | * froztbyte has a cringe at "the wiki" |
| 11:08 | <@himi> | ? |
| 11:09 | <@himi> | The phrase, or the idea of using Wikipedia to look something up? |
| 11:09 | < froztbyte> | the Wiki: http://c2.com/wiki/ |
| 11:09 | < froztbyte> | himi: at the habit of calling wikipedia "wiki" |
| 11:09 | < froztbyte> | because it isn't :D |
| 11:10 | <@Tamber> | Wikipedia := minitru. |
| 11:11 | <@Tamber> | (Or is that minitru = Wikipedia? One of the two :) |
| 11:11 | < froztbyte> | surely you mean ::= ? |
| 11:11 | <@himi> | I haven't come across 'minitru' |
| 11:11 | < froztbyte> | himi: Ministry Of Truth |
| 11:11 | <@Tamber> | froztbyte, do I? |
| 11:11 | <@himi> | um |
| 11:11 | | * Tamber is, it seems, still half asleep. |
| 11:12 | < froztbyte> | Tamber: only if I pick nits from a 1980s bearded Makefile-weilding perspective |
| 11:12 | <@Tamber> | Oh, so enough beard to pick plenty of nits from, right. ;) |
| 11:13 | <@himi> | Not knowing what the hell you guys are talking about, I have no idea if you're talking assignment, structural equality, logical equality, or what |
| 11:13 | <@Tamber> | Yes. |
| 11:14 | <@Tamber> | So at least one person (other than me) is confused. My work here is done. |
| 11:14 | < froztbyte> | all and none of the above |
| 11:14 | < froztbyte> | (Tamber started it!) |
| 11:14 | <@himi> | That's a pretty useless explanation |
| 11:14 | < froztbyte> | have you read 1984? |
| 11:14 | <@himi> | In any case, I don't think referring to Wikipedia via the colloquial phrase 'the wiki' is a problem in this era |
| 11:14 | <@himi> | Yes, but not in quite a while |
| 11:15 | < froztbyte> | then think back to your memories of it and the entire context of this situation should make sense |
| 11:16 | < froztbyte> | I think that calling anything by its non-proper (or, at the very most, well-known nickname) is wrong |
| 11:16 | < froztbyte> | something such as "the wiki" which could contextually mean /any wiki/ should certainly be taboo |
| 11:17 | <@himi> | Do you correct people who refer to computer criminals as hackers? |
| 11:17 | < froztbyte> | if I have the ability to do so |
| 11:17 | < froztbyte> | I also educate the sort of people who say "ID Document" or "PIN Number" |
| 11:18 | <@Tamber> | ATM Machine. |
| 11:18 | < froztbyte> | *twitch* |
| 11:18 | <@Tamber> | :D |
| 11:18 | <@Tamber> | Closed-Circuit CCTV. *runs* |
| 11:18 | <@himi> | Well, I can respect that, but I do think that fighting against the natural evolution of language is a good way to develop habitual migraines |
| 11:19 | | * froztbyte deploys a hunterseeker unit in Tamber's direction |
| 11:19 | < froztbyte> | himi: just like with human evolution, a little bit of chlorine strategically applied to the genepool is not always a bad thing |
| 11:19 | <@himi> | Unless you're French, in which case you'll fit right in |
| 11:20 | < froztbyte> | hahahahaha |
| 11:20 | <@himi> | Personally, I've given up on the cracker/hacker thing, though it does still make me cringe |
| 11:21 | < froztbyte> | I don't even try for "cracker/hacker", I just try to make them go for something more appropriate |
| 11:21 | <@himi> | Like what? |
| 11:21 | < froztbyte> | the subtleties of those two terms seems to be far too much for Joe Average to get in a short explanation |
| 11:22 | < froztbyte> | so "thief", "swindler", "electronic safecracker" or such are viable replacements |
| 11:22 | < froztbyte> | (but of course I pick each to the situation at hand) |
| 11:23 | <@himi> | Hacker in the black hat sense isn't that much younger than the white hat sense - it's not an invalid usage, it can just be confusing when you don't know the full context or you're not aware of the white hat sense |
| 11:23 | < froztbyte> | yeah, it's the confusion which I attempt to avoid |
| 11:24 | < froztbyte> | for the most part I'd consider any tinkerer a hacker, almost regardless of level |
| 11:24 | < froztbyte> | (that should even qualify somewhat successful script kiddies) |
| 11:24 | <@Tamber> | Surely that would imply they tinker with any of the crap they pick up? |
| 11:24 | <@Tamber> | (Other than changing the massive obnoxious banners to their 1337 tagz. ??) |
| 11:25 | <@himi> | I'd normally reserve 'hacker' for someone who makes something, rather than simply uses something, but making things do stuff that they weren't originally intended to do counts when it comes to computer systems |
| 11:25 | | mode/#code [+oooooo ShellNinja froztbyte Eri simon_ gnolam Stalker] by Tamber |
| 11:25 | <@froztbyte> | Tamber: that's why I added "somewhat successful", to indicate that I refer more to someone who can actually change the defaults and figure out a little bit of crap, as opposed to someone who just downloads LOIC and goes "lolol website down!" |
| 11:26 | <@Tamber> | :p |
| 11:27 | <@himi> | Anyone who says 'lolol' should be shot, for a start |
| 11:27 | <@froztbyte> | himi: I'd argue any that Macguyverian personality who can accomplishes successful recombination of a specific set of tools to perform some task might classify |
| 11:27 | <@Tamber> | Have you seen the state of most of their 'toolz', though? 90% of it is print statements for their 20-line long banners, the rest of it is a bit of PoC code ripped straight from the vuln report~ |
| 11:27 | <@himi> | Speaking of chlorine in the genepool, as we were |
| 11:27 | <@froztbyte> | I mean, realistically they applied some braincells and not some brauncells |
| 11:27 | <@Tamber> | hee |
| 11:30 | <@froztbyte> | err, also, s/shes /sh / |
| 11:30 | <@froztbyte> | no idea how that happened |
| 11:41 | | Kindamoody is now known as Kindamoody|out |
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| 15:52 | | gnolam [lenin@Nightstar-202a5047.priv.bahnhof.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 121 seconds] |
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| 19:21 | | mode/#code [+o ToxicFrog] by ChanServ |
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| 19:49 | | * maoranma removes Google Chrome. |
| 19:49 | | * maoranma installs Chromium. |
| 19:49 | | * maoranma installs official flash plugin. |
| 19:49 | | * maoranma ??? |
| 19:50 | | * maoranma PROFITS! |
| 19:56 | | Kindamoody is now known as Kindamoody|out |
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| 20:56 | | mode/#code [+o Kindamoody|out] by ChanServ |
| 20:58 | < maoranma> | Damn. Still crashing |
| 20:58 | | Kindamoody|out is now known as Kindamoody |
| 20:58 | < maoranma> | And it seems to only happen when I try to middle click from a window. At least with the official plugin it doesn't seem to kill the whole browser |
| 21:00 | < maoranma> | Guess I'll switch to html5 for youtube |
| 21:03 | <&McMartin> Is there a button to push for that? |
| 21:04 | < maoranma> | youtube.com/html5 |
| 21:06 | < maoranma> | http://www.google.com/support/forum/p/Chrome/thread?tid=7102f6831977ddbb&hl=en |
| 21:06 | < maoranma> | Apparently not just me |
| 21:09 | | Stalker [Z@Nightstar-3602cf5a.cust.comxnet.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 121 seconds] |
| 21:15 | < maoranma> | Ah, another thread shows it as a known issue, and some reports say Canary is working |
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| 22:19 | <@Eri> | Shockwave |
| 22:19 | <@Eri> | Crap |
| 22:20 | <@Eri> | That was supposed to go into Firefox. |
| 22:20 | <@Eri> | Still haven't tracked down whatever bug is preventing me from changing focus, sometimes |
| 23:18 | | Kindamoody [Kindamoody@Nightstar-3ef7401e.netlogon.liu.se] has quit [[NS] Quit: I'm going home, see you.] |
| 23:25 | < maoranma> | man I need to upgrade my drive space. 100 GB just doesn't cut it |
| 23:26 | <@TheWatcher> | ... |
| 23:26 | <@TheWatcher> | yeah |
| 23:27 | | * TheWatcher waves his cane a bit, remembers his first 30MB hard drive and how that seemed like so much space |
| 23:28 | <@TheWatcher> | What a fool was I. |
| 23:28 | < maoranma> | I think my first machine, running Win 95, had 500MB |
| 23:29 | < maoranma> | Which was really really small even then, my next computer I think had a 20GB |
| 23:29 | < maoranma> | And windows 98 se |
| 23:29 | < maoranma> | Ahh, 98... I miss you |
| 23:30 | <@Eri> | 20 GB drive running linux |
| 23:31 | <@Eri> | I'm riding the edge of the partition :( |
| 23:31 | | * jerith remembers 360kb tapes, yells at you lot to get off the lawn. |
| 23:31 | <@Eri> | It's past your bedtime, you senile old git |
| 23:31 | < eckse> | Eri: transformer fanboy? |
| 23:31 | <@Eri> | Nah, I hate transformers. I don't understand, like, magnetic flux in the cores |
| 23:32 | < eckse> | :| |
| 23:32 | < eckse> | fucking magnets? |
| 23:32 | <@Eri> | Nah, magnets are okay |
| 23:32 | <@Eri> | Just the resulting flux |
| 23:33 | <@jerith> | Eri: It's nearly 2am, but I'm installing vumi for wikipedia. |
| 23:33 | < eckse> | fucking eri. how does he work? |
| 23:34 | < maoranma> | vumi? |
| 23:34 | <@jerith> | github.com/praekelt/vumi |
| 23:34 | <@jerith> | My day job. |
| 23:34 | < maoranma> | *double clicks, gets channel modes, sighs at jerith |
| 23:35 | <@jerith> | My night job, apparently, is setting it up for Wikipedia. |
| 23:35 | <@TheWatcher> | Heh |
| 23:35 | <@TheWatcher> | There's worse things |
| 23:35 | | mode/#code [+oooooooo Attilla_ celticminstrel eckse gnolam maoranma Rhamphoryncus ShellNinja Stalker] by jerith |
| 23:35 | <@maoranma> | "Messaging engine for the delivery of SMS, Star Menu and chat messages to diverse audiences in emerging markets and beyond." |
| 23:35 | <@maoranma> | <flat> What </flat> |
| 23:36 | <@jerith> | That's a bad description. |
| 23:36 | <@jerith> | But meh. |
| 23:36 | <@maoranma> | So it's Google Wave? |
| 23:36 | <@jerith> | No. |
| 23:37 | <@jerith> | It's a thing to build applications that use SMS, USSD, etc. |
| 23:37 | <@maoranma> | Oh...what does wikipedia need it for? |
| 23:37 | <@jerith> | Wikipedia-over-USSD/ |
| 23:38 | <@TheWatcher> | Turning your mobile device into something even more like the H2G2 ¬¬ |
| 23:38 | <@maoranma> | 182 characters of an article doesn't seem like much |
| 23:39 | <@maoranma> | Besides, isn't that a dumb phone technology? |
| 23:41 | <@TheWatcher> | Pretty much all phones support USSD. Which is, from what I can tell about praekelt, rather the point |
| 23:42 | <@maoranma> | CDMA phones wouldn't would they? Since it's a GSM technology. |
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| --- Log closed Sat Jan 28 00:00:30 2012 |