| --- Log opened Sun Dec 04 00:00:32 2011 |
| 00:18 | | You're now known as TheWatcher[T-2] |
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| 03:16 | | * McMartin breaks out the Refactor Tractor, an unusually relaxing task when you're programming in abstract syntax to begin with |
| 03:17 | <~Vornicus> Hee |
| 03:18 | < McMartin> | (I love the history of LISP's syntax) |
| 03:18 | < McMartin> | ("We'll just let you write out ASTs for now and invent a real syntax later") |
| 03:19 | < McMartin> | ("... when we get around to it") |
| 03:19 | < celticminstrel> | ? |
| 03:19 | < McMartin> | ("... how high priority is this, anyhow") |
| 03:19 | < McMartin> | ("... right then!") |
| 03:19 | < McMartin> | ^-- the history of LISP's syntax |
| 03:19 | < celticminstrel> | I don't quite get it... <_< |
| 03:19 | < Tamber> | LISP doesn't have syntax~ |
| 03:19 | < McMartin> | LISP originally was supposed to look like a more "traditional" programming language. |
| 03:19 | < celticminstrel> | Are you implying the real syntax never got invented? |
| 03:20 | < McMartin> | I am not merely implying it; this is actually what happened. |
| 03:20 | < ToxicFrog> | celticminstrel: Lisp syntax - S-expressions - are basically a direct textual representation of the abstract syntax trees that in most languages are an intermediate form generated by the compiler. |
| 03:20 | < celticminstrel> | Well, you didn't specifically state it just now though. |
| 03:20 | < McMartin> | The parens-and-prefix-notation syntax was supposed to be a stopgap. |
| 03:20 | < McMartin> | But it turned out to be easy enough to use that it became permanent. |
| 03:20 | < celticminstrel> | Ah. |
| 03:20 | < McMartin> | As it happens, some dialects - including Gambit, the one I use - have infix syntax forms you can use |
| 03:20 | < McMartin> | But seriously, why bother, it's less compatible and worse documented. |
| 03:21 | < McMartin> | Meanwhile, Scheme also has extensive rules for syntax modification and hygenic macros (ones that respect and generate namespaces), so you can invent a wide variety of syntaxes for various purposes, or just use syntax transformers as a domain-specific language outright |
| 03:21 | < McMartin> | I hate it when people do this, and have been deliberately avoiding it in my little Scheme project |
| 03:22 | < McMartin> | I may have to give in a little bit, though, to add some special forms that are extremely useful and that R5RS and Gambit both lack. |
| 03:22 | < McMartin> | (Specifically, define-values, which lets you bind multiple values into the your namespace simultaneously while sharing the same environment, which lets you do module-style identifier hiding much more easily) |
| 03:23 | < McMartin> | Part of this refactoring, though, is showing me that I don't actually have to do that yet, because I can keep it as "globals" and "internal definitions for each of those independent globals" |
| 03:36 | < celticminstrel> | Logo has infix forms for the arithmetic operators, at least. |
| 03:36 | < celticminstrel> | Or the UCB dialect does anyway. |
| 04:18 | < McMartin> | Logo is indeed a Lisp dialect with a more recognizable syntax. |
| 04:51 | < celticminstrel> | I believe it was my first ever programming language. :P |
| 04:52 | < Derakon> | My first was BASIC on the C64. |
| 04:52 | < Derakon> | The extent of my exploits being, IIRC, playing with the extended character set, and one very basic branch. |
| 05:02 | <~Vornicus> C64 BASIC was mine too. |
| 05:02 | <~Vornicus> And then I did a bit with Turbo Pascal, and neither of them did I ever really understand. |
| 05:02 | < Kazriko> | Atari BasicXE here. |
| 05:03 | < Kazriko> | I did a tiny bit with the machine language of the atari, but not much. |
| 05:03 | < Kazriko> | In 6th grade I learned turbo pascal and never wanted to go to basic again. |
| 05:03 | < Derakon> | I went from BASIC to C, poking at the Angband source. |
| 05:04 | < Kazriko> | I think I learned Pascal almost exactly the same way that Guido Van Rossom did. heh |
| 05:05 | < Kazriko> | http://neopythonic.blogspot.com/2011/07/before-python.html |
| 05:06 | < Kazriko> | those railroad diagrams were really handy. |
| 05:08 | < McMartin> | Pascal is pretty easy to parse |
| 05:08 | < McMartin> | It's a royal pain to do runtimes for though. |
| 05:11 | < Kazriko> | The main thing I liked about Turbo Pascal wasn't present in the original pascal, so I can't really recommend plain pascal. :p |
| 05:13 | < Kazriko> | Though, I did really like Oberon-2 when I dabbled with it. |
| 05:15 | <~Vornicus> But my last contact with turbo pascal was in like 1993, and then I only started programming in earnest in 2001. |
| 05:16 | < Kazriko> | I programmed in turbo pascal as my primary language for about 6 years. |
| 05:16 | < McMartin> | My last contact with Turbo Pascal was... 1996. |
| 05:16 | < McMartin> | Turbo Pascal 7 was basically a slightly more structured C. |
| 05:17 | < Kazriko> | about 1996 here too. |
| 05:17 | < Kazriko> | but I did use Delphi and Sibyl a bit after that. |
| 05:19 | < Kazriko> | and yes, turbo pascal is C with less capable pointers and more capable module systems. |
| 05:19 | < Kazriko> | well, and a bit like a less messy C++ in its object oriented stuff. |
| 05:20 | < McMartin> | Also, better strings than C~ |
| 05:21 | < Kazriko> | ehhhh. |
| 05:21 | < Kazriko> | They're limited to 255 characters. |
| 05:21 | < Kazriko> | better string handling for sure though. |
| 05:22 | < Kazriko> | When I made a text editor I just had an array of 255 character lines because it was easier than trying to make a longer string. |
| 05:22 | < McMartin> | I'm not convinced "255-char limit" is worse than "cannot represent all character strings" |
| 05:23 | < Kazriko> | It would have been better if they had used 2 bytes for the length, or 4 bytes. |
| 05:23 | < Kazriko> | With some work, you can do both of them as arrays of characters with a length in an object, so *shrug*\ |
| 05:25 | | ErikMesoy|sleep is now known as ErikMesoy |
| 05:29 | < Kazriko> | in pascal, str1 = str2 compares the strings, instead of strncmp(str1,str2,length) == 0 |
| 05:59 | < celticminstrel> | And of course quick-fail if they're not the same length, which str(n)cmp can't do. |
| 06:01 | < Kazriko> | yeah, because strncmp also wants to see which one is bigger or smaller to give you a positive or negative failure... |
| 06:03 | < Kazriko> | ugh, I wish I didn't have to deal with C's string handling as much. |
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| 06:26 | < celticminstrel> | That too. |
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| 09:14 | < cpux> | There's space, then the TARDIS traveling along the storms of time, then HOLY CRAP WE'RE IN HELL! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vwPM_ENxpNE |
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| 22:57 | | * EvilDarkLord wonders why his cellphone appears to regress to a natural state of "4 minutes late" some time after being corrected. |
| 22:57 | < Tamber> | Time travellers. |
| 22:58 | < Eri> | That's because your cellphone is connected to the network by a tower which relays from a satellite |
| 22:58 | < Eri> | So, you're actually getting the time in space |
| 22:58 | < EvilDarkLord> | Is this going to involve special relativity? |
| 22:58 | < Eri> | Nope |
| 22:59 | < Eri> | Just that it's the time in space |
| 22:59 | < Eri> | Not the time where you are |
| 22:59 | < Eri> | Although, we could get relativistic if you'd like |
| 22:59 | < EvilDarkLord> | I see. That makes no sense, but this doesn't either so I guess it works out. |
| 23:00 | < Eri> | But seriously, though. Most likely, you're just four minutes ahead of the network |
| 23:00 | < Eri> | Most phones don't bother storing a specific offset. |
| 23:01 | < Eri> | So, it says, "I'm in UTC-X, what's the time?" |
| 23:01 | < Eri> | Then just pulls from the control channel |
| 23:02 | < Eri> | Alternately, if the error creeps in between polling the network time, you could have some kind of overclocking going on. |
| 23:02 | < Eri> | Not even necessarily on purpose. |
| 23:03 | < Eri> | That, or a bad clock giving noisy edges, or something |
| 23:05 | < Eri> | Although, I think the latter would manifest as something a lot more serious than just a fast clock |
| --- Log closed Mon Dec 05 00:00:46 2011 |