| --- Log opened Mon Oct 24 00:00:10 2011 |
| --- Day changed Mon Oct 24 2011 |
| 00:00 | < Derakon> | So you didn't think hard enough to try it and see? |
| 00:00 | < celmin> | Just did that. |
| 00:00 | < Derakon> | And did it work? |
| 00:00 | < celmin> | Didn't seem to work, though maybe I just translated by the wrong vector... |
| 00:01 | < Derakon> | I have to think that all this order-of-operations stuff for 3D transformations would be best taught by giving the students a copy of POV-Ray with a basic scene set up. |
| 00:02 | < celmin> | Ah yes, no wonder it didn't work; the translation vector was 0. |
| 00:03 | < celmin> | Turns out the real issue is that my axes are drawn in the wrong place...? |
| 00:03 | < celmin> | Somehow? |
| 00:05 | < celmin> | Or wait, I think the perspective just confused me. |
| 00:09 | < celmin> | Well yay, it all seems to work now. Next is viewing transformations... I don't think he expected me to do those manually... |
| 00:10 | < celmin> | (Okay, I'm actually not quite sure rotating the cube on an axis intersecting the centre of two opposite faces is working correctly, but it looks close enough for now.) |
| 00:22 | < celmin> | ...whoops, my scale is with respect to the wrong point. <_< |
| 00:22 | < celmin> | At least it's easily fixed. |
| 00:24 | < celmin> | ...also apparently it's one-way. |
| 00:24 | < celmin> | Wait why do I have a negative scale factor. |
| 00:26 | < celmin> | Well that's fixed, but somehow the scale is cancelling translations... |
| 00:28 | < celmin> | ...first argument to gluPerspective seems to behave as a scale factor... |
| 00:32 | | * McMartin actually tends to use GluLookAt, now that he thinks about it. |
| 00:32 | < McMartin> | Wait, but that's for something else. |
| 00:32 | < celmin> | I have both in there. |
| 00:32 | < McMartin> | Yeah, so, perspective stuff is wacky, and has to do with field of view as well |
| 00:33 | < McMartin> | You may recall this from the endless bitching that the Glorious PC Gaming Master Race does about console FPS games, which tend to have a smaller FOV. |
| 00:33 | < celmin> | I think I crashed it... |
| 00:36 | < celmin> | Using explicit destruction followed by placement new probably isn't the best strategy, but it works. <_< |
| 00:37 | < McMartin> | ... are you attempting "morphing" here? |
| 00:38 | < celmin> | Implementation of the "reset" button. |
| 00:40 | < celmin> | What do you mean by "morphing"? |
| 00:45 | | * sshine used to play Quake I with FOV 140. |
| 01:01 | < McMartin> | "morphing" is where you take a chunk of memory that was originally one object and transmute it into another object. |
| 01:15 | < celmin> | Well, I'm destructing and constructing the same type. |
| 01:17 | < celmin> | Somehow I managed to find a use for pointers-to-members in here. |
| 01:18 | < celmin> | ...uh, there's an edge missing in my pyramid... o.O |
| 01:20 | < celmin> | At some point tonight or tomorrow morning I need to figure out stereoscopic viewing... |
| 01:22 | < celmin> | Oh, he has sample code for that, good. |
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| 04:17 | | * Derakon sends an email to pyopengl-users complaining about "from foo import *". |
| 04:17 | < Derakon> | Whee~ |
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| 04:34 | < Derakon> | "Legacy |
| 04:34 | < Derakon> | OpenGL included functions which would manipulate these matrices via "translation", "rotation", "scaling" and the like. Modern OpenGL programmers are expected the calculate the matrices themselves (or have a library that does it for them)." |
| 04:34 | < Derakon> | I really don't understand why this is considered to be progress. |
| 04:34 | < Derakon> | "Look, now you have to do more stuff manually! Isn't this awesome?" |
| 04:34 | < McMartin> | Easier to directly realize in hardware. |
| 04:34 | < kazrikna> | OpenGL is a relatively low level library |
| 04:35 | < Derakon> | That doesn't mean it can't provide APIs to do that matrix calculation process. |
| 04:38 | < McMartin> | That's what GLU should be for -_- |
| 04:41 | < McMartin> | Though I suspect DrawTeapot is still part of the standard library too -_- |
| 04:43 | < McMartin> | Really, though, you should be treating legacy OpenGL as an emulation layer these days anyway - it is to the Playstation 1 what framebuffer programming is to the SNES. |
| 04:43 | < Derakon> | I just want to get decent-looking results without having to fill my program with a crapton of low-level stuff. |
| 04:44 | < Derakon> | Because really, I'm just trying to render some cubes. |
| 04:44 | < Lingerance> | Minecraft clone? |
| 04:45 | < Derakon> | No, I aim to have actual gameplay~ |
| 04:45 | < Derakon> | (3D roguelike, is the idea) |
| 04:45 | < McMartin> | GluDrawCube~ |
| 04:45 | < McMartin> | "Deprecated" does not mean here what it means in Java. |
| 04:46 | < Alek> | a 3d roguelike out of cubes forming the ascii characters? >_> |
| 04:46 | < Derakon> | No. |
| 04:46 | < Lingerance> | Language and license? |
| 04:46 | < Derakon> | Python, haven't decided. |
| 04:47 | < Derakon> | Realize that I have just this side of zero code written so far. |
| 04:47 | < kazrikna> | Heh, you know, I remember doing those transformations and such by hand in POVray early on too. |
| 04:47 | < McMartin> | Given that this is your goal, trying to use the most modern, least widely implemented versions of the graphical standards seems like a bad move. |
| 04:47 | | * Lingerance was interested in an MC-clone with RPG features, but would prefer C/C++ with JS scripting. |
| 04:47 | < Derakon> | McM: I can render a cube. An unshaded cube. |
| 04:47 | < Derakon> | Trying to get lighting redirects me into learning to use shaders. |
| 04:48 | < Derakon> | And from there the rabbit hole never stops. |
| 04:49 | < McMartin> | Legacy OpenGL lighting is shit |
| 04:50 | < McMartin> | That said, look for tutorials on setting vertex normals. |
| 04:50 | < McMartin> | And materials |
| 04:50 | | * McMartin learned from, like, Actual Books, so. |
| 04:50 | < McMartin> | In this case, the fourth edition of the OpenGL SuperBible. |
| 04:50 | < Derakon> | I have the Red Book around here somewhere, and I'm pretty sure it's online too. |
| 04:50 | < McMartin> | That helped me... less. |
| 04:50 | < McMartin> | But it will still be better than whatever you *are* looking at. |
| 04:50 | < Derakon> | It's just frustrating how conflicting all the tutorials all are. |
| 04:51 | < McMartin> | Which appears to be geared to the question "I want to write my own version of Source/Unreal Engine 3" |
| 04:51 | < McMartin> | As opposed to "I'd like to do something at the level of Descent. Maybe. Possibly a little simpler." |
| 04:51 | | * Derakon nods. |
| 04:52 | < Derakon> | I don't even need realistic lighting; it'd be neat but it's hardly necessary. |
| 04:52 | < McMartin> | I do think modern consensus is that doing everything with vertex information and then interpolating between them was a 20-year detour, though. |
| 04:52 | < McMartin> | Yeah, this is less "stock OpenGL lighting is unrealistic" and more "if you have objects lined up to look vaguely concave half the screen goes black" |
| 04:52 | < celmin> | The teapot is in GLUT, not GLU. |
| 04:52 | < McMartin> | Sable had to do its own lighting code to get the terrain to look right, IIRC. |
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| 05:56 | | You're now known as TheWatcher |
| 06:09 | | * TheWatcher readsup |
| 06:11 | < TheWatcher> | Dera: textures, lighting, blending, legacy-style: http://nehe.gamedev.net/tutorial/lessons_06__10/17010/ |
| 06:20 | < TheWatcher> | Although, unless you're doing this as a Learning OpenGL Exercise, I'd suggest looking into engines like OGRE, Crystal Space, or Panda3D |
| 06:21 | < TheWatcher> | (the latter of which is python-friendly, IIRC) |
| 06:23 | < celmin> | ...wait, I replace pi/2 with 90 and suddenly it magically works? |
| 06:24 | < ToxicFrog> | celmin: radians are not degrees; make sure you're using the same unit the library is. |
| 06:25 | < celmin> | "The library" in this case happens to be <cmath> |
| 06:26 | < ToxicFrog> | Ok, that's weird, because: |
| 06:27 | < ToxicFrog> | DESCRIPTION |
| 06:27 | < ToxicFrog> | The sin() function returns the sine of x, where x is given in radians. |
| 06:27 | < ToxicFrog> | And this holds for the rest of <math.h> |
| 06:27 | < celmin> | Exactly. |
| 06:27 | | Derakon is now known as Derakon[AFK] |
| 06:27 | < ToxicFrog> | What are you using the results with? |
| 06:27 | < celmin> | Making a rotation matrix for OpenGL. |
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| 06:28 | < ToxicFrog> | If, say, you're doing sin(foo) and then passing the result to something that does asin(bar) and expects a result in degrees, that would explain it. |
| 06:28 | < celmin> | Well, not just rotation. |
| 06:28 | < ToxicFrog> | IOW, check what OGL uses, not just <math.h>. |
| 06:28 | < ToxicFrog> | Also, done marking assignment 1: |
| 06:28 | < celmin> | Eh, well, somehow this works, so I'll stick with it. |
| 06:28 | < ToxicFrog> | > summary(marks) |
| 06:28 | < ToxicFrog> | Min. 1st Qu. Median Mean 3rd Qu. Max. |
| 06:28 | < ToxicFrog> | 0.00 1.25 2.00 1.80 2.00 5.00 |
| 06:28 | < ToxicFrog> | ;.; |
| 06:28 | < celmin> | Also, this means my assignment is 99% done, so yay! |
| 06:28 | < ToxicFrog> | (this is out of 5) |
| 06:29 | < celmin> | Well at least someone got perfect. |
| 06:31 | | * celmin goes to bed. |
| 06:31 | | celmin [celticminst@Nightstar-5d22ab1d.cable.rogers.com] has quit [[NS] Quit: Client has been nuked. Client is no longer functional.] |
| 06:44 | | * TheWatcher eyes those results, >.<s |
| 06:57 | < Rhamphoryncus> | When finally turning on the backup drive 6 months ago, and it doesn't appear immediately, check the most obvious thing: is the SATA cable loose? |
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| 08:29 | < Rhamphoryncus> | But apparently half a terabyte takes a while to backup. I don't think I'll be doing the upgrade tonight. |
| 08:33 | < McMartin> | ToxicFrog: If I am in a bad mood, I'd say "Aw, your median is off by half a point" >_> |
| 08:34 | < McMartin> | It's pretty pro how the median is *also* the third quartile, though. |
| 09:04 | < Rhamphoryncus> | Oh hey, it's gotten past my D&D torrents and into my porn! |
| 09:05 | <~Vornicus> http://imgur.com/gallery/zyQIN silliness |
| 09:29 | < jerith> | http://i.imgur.com/ThIqI.jpg |
| 10:29 | < Rhamphoryncus> | jerith: heh |
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| 12:30 | < AnnoDomini> | http://www.geeksaresexy.net/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/win82.jpg |
| 12:30 | < AnnoDomini> | (Though I do object to the labels for Win95 and Win98.) |
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| --- Log closed Mon Oct 24 18:21:22 2011 |
| --- Log opened Mon Oct 24 18:21:32 2011 |
| 18:21 | | TheWatcher [chris@Nightstar-3762b576.co.uk] has joined #code |
| 18:21 | | Irssi: #code: Total of 22 nicks [1 ops, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 21 normal] |
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| 21:40 | < Derakon> | This morning when I came in to work, I thought I'd come up with the solution to a problem I'd had last week. |
| 21:40 | < Derakon> | As I worked on implementing it, I encountered all the reasons I'd forgotten over the weekend for why that solution wouldn't actually work. |
| 21:40 | < Derakon> | Hooray memory. |
| 21:41 | < celticminstrel> | XD |
| 22:05 | < jerith> | Been there. Done that. |
| 22:06 | | * gnolam arghls at USians and their silly units. |
| 22:07 | < celticminstrel> | Oh, someone else who uses the term "USians". |
| 22:08 | < gnolam> | A LIST OF SPECIFIC ACTIVITIES IN SANE UNITS. THAT IS ALL I ASK. |
| 22:09 | | * Derakon measures Gnolam's fuel efficiency in rods per hogshead. |
| 22:09 | | * TheWatcher presents gnolam with a list of morris dance steps measured in microparsecs |
| 22:09 | < McMartin> | It's not *our* fault that everyone else uses the same words for entirely different quantities. |
| 22:09 | < McMartin> | And I don't even mean the Imperials. |
| 22:11 | < McMartin> | Also, base 12 is totally sane, which is why even you people using Communist units apply it to time. |
| 22:11 | | * McMartin has no particular comment on using force as the core unit of everything. |
| 22:13 | < celticminstrel> | Uh, time is base 60. <_< |
| 22:13 | < Derakon> | 60 % 12 = 5. |
| 22:14 | < McMartin> | 60 is even better than 12, for the same reason >_> |
| 22:14 | < Derakon> | Also, 24 hours in a day. |
| 22:14 | < celticminstrel> | What's the relevance of 60%12=5? |
| 22:14 | < McMartin> | Which is traditionally organized into two groups of 12. |
| 22:14 | < McMartin> | The reason 12 is sane is the same reason 50 is sane - it has a ludicrous number of consecutive divisors. |
| 22:14 | < Derakon> | CM: I'm saying that 60, being a multiple of 12, can be thought of as being in base 12 if you like. |
| 22:14 | < McMartin> | Er, 60 is sane. |
| 22:14 | < McMartin> | 50 is kind of the worst of all worlds. |
| 22:14 | < Derakon> | 1 * 2 * 5 * 5! |
| 22:15 | < celticminstrel> | Heh, that'd only have 5 and 2. |
| 22:15 | < McMartin> | You know what else only has 5 and 2? |
| 22:15 | < Derakon> | 10! |
| 22:15 | < McMartin> | 100. |
| 22:15 | < McMartin> | But at least you can get 4 out of it. |
| 22:15 | < Derakon> | Well, 10! has 2,3,5 and 7~ |
| 22:15 | | * TheWatcher has always wondered about how the divisions of time came about |
| 22:15 | < Derakon> | Blame the Babylonians, IIRC. |
| 22:15 | < McMartin> | Pretty much, though the Romans may do it too. |
| 22:15 | < TheWatcher> | *shrug* works for me! |
| 22:16 | < Derakon> | They did everything in base 60, and had the math chops to promulgate early calendars, clocks, etc. |
| 22:16 | < McMartin> | See also: pre-decimalization UK currency, which was also bace 12. |
| 22:16 | < McMartin> | *base 12 |
| 22:16 | < TheWatcher> | (and full of spiders) |
| 22:16 | < McMartin> | Yeah, despite admitting a place for inch/yard divisions, I have no love for the psd system. |
| 22:16 | | * Derakon tips TW happence. |
| 22:17 | < celticminstrel> | psd? |
| 22:17 | < celticminstrel> | Photoshop? :P |
| 22:17 | < McMartin> | also LSD |
| 22:17 | < TheWatcher> | Pounds, Shillings, Pence (d) |
| 22:17 | < McMartin> | Pound/Libra, Solidus, Denarii |
| 22:17 | < TheWatcher> | heh |
| 22:17 | < celticminstrel> | Ah. |
| 22:17 | < McMartin> | See also the lira, the livre, and many other pre-euro currencies, most of which are most directly Rome's fault~ |
| 22:17 | < TheWatcher> | (bloody romans) |
| 22:18 | < Derakon> | (What have they done for us, anyway?) |
| 22:18 | < McMartin> | (besides the aquaducts and the roads and the etc.) |
| 22:19 | < TheWatcher> | (<insert Life of Brian quote here>) |
| 22:20 | < McMartin> | (In California, s/the Romans/the gummint/ and you can use it basically word for word) |
| 22:20 | < McMartin> | (*various mutterings about how people seem to believe in The Infrastructure Fairy*) |
| 22:21 | < TheWatcher> | On the road to nowhere with that one... |
| 22:21 | < Derakon> | Oh, Alaska. |
| 22:22 | < TheWatcher> | Quite. |
| 22:22 | < Derakon> | (If you're not familiar, one Alaskan senator famously got federal funds to build a Bridge to Nowhere, a massive span to connect some tiny hamlet to the mainland) |
| 22:23 | < TheWatcher> | (... no, I was not. Also 9_9) |
| 22:23 | < McMartin> | (The bridge was only half finished) |
| 22:23 | < McMartin> | (Alaska could *use* some bridges like that given that their capital is not reachable by land) |
| 22:29 | <~Vornicus> (360 is "sane" for angle because it's divisible by 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 8, 9, 10, 12, 15, 18...) |
| 22:29 | < McMartin> | (Given the other sane option is fucking transcendental...) |
| 22:29 | <~Vornicus> (240 is imo more sane, because all integer angles in a 240-degree circle are constructible) |
| 22:30 | < McMartin> | ("all else is the work of man" my eye) |
| 22:30 | < Derakon> | Hey look, 240 is a multiple of 12! |
| 22:30 | < McMartin> | SO is 360~ |
| 22:30 | < Derakon> | ...er. Right. |
| 22:30 | < celticminstrel> | Yeah, why does everything use radians anyway? |
| 22:30 | < Derakon> | I knew that. |
| 22:30 | < McMartin> | Constructability is stricter than factors. |
| 22:30 | <~Vornicus> celmin: because they're one of the two natural measures of angle. |
| 22:30 | < McMartin> | celticminstrel: The math on radians works better. |
| 22:30 | <~Vornicus> (the other is the "circle") |
| 22:30 | <~Vornicus> (which has its own problems) |
| 22:30 | < McMartin> | To wit: If you do sin x, where x is in radians... |
| 22:31 | < McMartin> | and then take the derivative of it... |
| 22:31 | < McMartin> | you get cos x. |
| 22:31 | < McMartin> | A nifty trick. |
| 22:31 | < Derakon> | Mind, if you listen to some people, we should be using tau instead of pi. |
| 22:31 | < Derakon> | (where tau = 2pi) |
| 22:31 | <~Vornicus> if you did it in degrees, you get pi/180 cos x |
| 22:31 | < celticminstrel> | Vornicus: Sure, but how does that explain why programming libraries use it? |
| 22:31 | <~Vornicus> It's also a hell of a lot easier to calculate; there's a simple power series for it. |
| 22:31 | < celticminstrel> | Derakon: That really doesn't make a difference. |
| 22:31 | < McMartin> | ^--- |
| 22:32 | < McMartin> | You can compute the radian versions in hardware. |
| 22:32 | < Derakon> | It's semantics, CM, but sometimes semantics are useful. |
| 22:32 | < celticminstrel> | Sorry, did I get in the way or were you talking to me? |
| 22:32 | <~Vornicus> And you can use the radian version when handling complex numbers; you can't use the degree one. |
| 22:32 | < McMartin> | By doing the power series until you hit your precision limit. |
| 22:32 | < McMartin> | celticminstrel: You got in the way ;-) |
| 22:32 | < celticminstrel> | Ah, I see. |
| 22:33 | <~Vornicus> Also, when you use radians, you'll also get solutions to differential equations, with only the solution values coming in. |
| 22:33 | <~Vornicus> (also: what's the length of an arc of a circle with radius r, that covers angle a? well, if your angle is in radians, it's r * a.) |
| 22:36 | <~Vornicus> (constructability: you get a power of 2, and one each of 3, 5, 17, 257, 65537, and you can multiply them together. That portion of a circle is a constructible angle.) |
| 22:39 | <~Vornicus> http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=taylor+series+of+sin%28pi+*+x+%2F+180%29 <--- power series of sine, in degrees; you keep adding terms on (in the pattern) until you have enough precision. http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=taylor+series+of+sin%28x%29 <--- same thing, in radians. As you can see, the latter is a lot nicer. |
| 22:44 | <~Vornicus> and now that you've been dogpiled on, celmin, is there anything else you'd like to know. :P |
| 22:45 | < celticminstrel> | Yes! What is the meaning of life? :P |
| 22:45 | | You're now known as TheWatcher[T-2] |
| 22:46 | <~Vornicus> To do math, ovciously |
| 22:46 | < celticminstrel> | Heh. |
| 22:47 | | You're now known as TheWatcher[zZzZ] |
| 22:48 | | * gnolam found what he was looking for in a data sheet he forgot he had. |
| 22:48 | < gnolam> | Heh. |
| 23:49 | | * Derakon mutters at Python's subprocess, which is AFAICT not inheriting environment variables. |
| 23:49 | < Derakon> | (subprocess = module for invoking commandline programs) |
| 23:50 | < Derakon> | Though the docs say it's supposed to inherit properly. Bah. |
| 23:50 | < McMartin> | Do you have to manually set the environment variable? |
| 23:50 | < gnolam> | You hold it down and I'll curb-stomp it. :P |
| 23:50 | < Derakon> | McM: this is a bit confused, but... |
| 23:50 | < gnolam> | Yes. My dislike for that module is that strong. |
| 23:50 | < Derakon> | There's setup_Priism.sh, which you run in order to get access to the Priism commandline. |
| 23:51 | < Derakon> | So I have a script which runs my jobs for me, one at a time. |
| 23:51 | < Derakon> | It creates a shell script, which uses setup_Priism.sh, then runs a single job. |
| 23:51 | < McMartin> | Urk. Is this something you'd normally source? |
| 23:51 | < Derakon> | Yes. |
| 23:51 | < McMartin> | Pretty sure that sourcing stuff is just going to fuck you, and for once it won't be Subprocess's fault |
| 23:51 | < Derakon> | That single job, in this case, is actually another "iteratively do jobs" thing,. |
| 23:52 | < Derakon> | And while I had expected those sub-jobs to inherit the changes created by sourcing setup_Priism.sh, they don't appear to be doing so. |
| 23:52 | < McMartin> | Hrm. |
| 23:52 | < McMartin> | Is there any setuid jackassery going on? |
| 23:52 | < Derakon> | No. |
| 23:53 | < McMartin> | ISTR you're on OSX too, which has subtle variations in how subprocess inheritance works, too. |
| 23:53 | < gnolam> | Oh hey, Wikipedia's apparently started supporting HTTPS in a sane way now. |
| 23:53 | < Derakon> | Actually this is being run remotely via SSH, on a Linux box. |
| 23:53 | < McMartin> | mm |
| 23:53 | < McMartin> | In that case, yeah, that should work, from the basic description, though I may be constructing it wrong in my head. |
| 23:53 | < Derakon> | I wouldn't be surprised. It's a pretty tangled web. |
| 23:54 | < Derakon> | But at least it's a commented tangled web. >.> |
| 23:54 | < jerith> | Do the comments lie |
| 23:54 | < jerith> | ? |
| 23:54 | < Derakon> | Oh, well. Guess I'll just source setup_Priism.sh before each sub-job too. |
| 23:55 | < Derakon> | No, they don't! |
| 23:55 | < Derakon> | Or if they do, when I catch them at it they get re-educated. |
| 23:55 | < jerith> | Were they written recently? |
| 23:56 | < Derakon> | Comments are written at the time of creation/modification. |
| 23:56 | < jerith> | I tend to undercomment because anything not semantically relevant tends to get stale. |
| 23:57 | < Derakon> | Per the stats I ran on Friday, this program is about 17% comments and 17% whitespace. |
| 23:57 | < jerith> | (I also got into the habit of completely ignoring comments in a couple of codebases where they were generally misleading.) |
| 23:57 | < Derakon> | Which seems a bit heavy on whitespace, but I guess that's what I get for having two blank lines between each function. |
| 23:58 | < jerith> | pep8! |
| 23:58 | < Derakon> | (And three before/after classes) |
| 23:58 | < jerith> | That sounds like the Twisted standard. |
| 23:58 | < Derakon> | Uh, could be. *shrug* |
| 23:59 | < jerith> | We have pep8 in our CI builds. |
| 23:59 | < jerith> | Also pyflakes. |
| --- Log closed Tue Oct 25 00:00:46 2011 |