| --- Log opened Fri Jun 03 00:00:17 2011 |
| 00:43 | < gnolam> | Alek: you didn't happen to speak to your dad about the computer/electronic calculating machine thingy, did you? |
| 00:50 | < Alek> | oh yeah. I did. |
| 00:51 | < Alek> | he says that as of the mid-80's, both terms were sharing usage. |
| 00:51 | < Alek> | with computer referring mostly to PCs and the other mostly to mainframes. |
| 00:52 | < Alek> | "computer" came into usage around the start of the 80's, along with the PC itself. |
| 00:52 | < Alek> | he doesn't know when the other term really stopped, though. |
| 00:53 | < Alek> | we did leave by the end of the 80's. <_< |
| 00:56 | < gnolam> | Ah, cool. |
| 00:56 | < gnolam> | Thanks. |
| 00:59 | < gnolam> | (Besides my interest in Russian, Swedish is one of very few languages where the word for "computer" is not any kind of translation/transcription of the English word, so I find the distinction interesting) |
| 01:02 | < Alek> | well, a direct translation of "computer" would be "vychislitel"... while "kompyuter" is a transliteration. what do you mean by transcription? |
| 01:07 | < gnolam> | Well, transliteration, but taking pronunciation into account. |
| 01:07 | | * Alek doesn't get it. |
| 01:10 | < gnolam> | (Transliteration, BTW, can be hilarious. At the entrance to the Zone, they compared our passports to a list they had of people allowed access. Their transliterations were... well, I loled when I saw what my name was supposed to be in Ukrainian. And that was despite the guards carrying kalashnikovs.) |
| 01:10 | < Alek> | heh. do tell. |
| 01:11 | < gnolam> | I still don't know who did the transliteration - the travel agency or the Zone people themselves. But hilarious it was. Someone had at least /tried/ to translate Swedish letter. |
| 01:11 | < gnolam> | *letters |
| 01:11 | < gnolam> | But did so very, very badly. |
| 01:12 | < gnolam> | It's no wonder it took a minute per person or so. The names were so badly mangled that they pretty much had to take every name on faith. :D |
| 01:13 | < Alek> | mmh. |
| 01:14 | < Alek> | some of those Slavic countries do have pretty weird writing, as do you Scandinavians. XD |
| 01:14 | < gnolam> | Their version of "Björn" stll send me into giggles. |
| 01:14 | < gnolam> | *still sends |
| 01:14 | < Alek> | oh? how was it? |
| 01:15 | < Alek> | idly, Polish is one of the simplest ones, their silent 'z's notwithstanding. it's basically a somewhat diverged Russian (which most of them are, really), in an English alphabet. |
| 01:16 | < Alek> | this is a simplification, of course, as I haven't made any in-depth study, but that's what it seems to be, from the experience I've had with it. |
| 01:17 | < gnolam> | Silent z's and vowel l's. :P |
| 01:17 | < Alek> | didn't know about vowel l's, have no idea how that'd work. O_O |
| 01:18 | < Alek> | and speaking of transliteration - Russian compgeeks, having to use both cyrillic and latin keyboard layouts, have devised some interesting stuff. |
| 01:18 | < gnolam> | That l with a flag thingy. That's a vowel. |
| 01:19 | < gnolam> | And yes, I know. There are a /gazillion/ Cyrillic encodings. |
| 01:19 | < Alek> | firstly, 'translit' - basically, Russian using the English alphabet. MUCH simpler than the Polish alphabet, really. XD |
| 01:19 | < Alek> | not about encodings, no. although that's another gripe, but that's mostly because it seems like every cyrillic-writing country has its own tweaks for the alphabet. |
| 01:21 | < Alek> | secondly, 'power users' learn to recognize, from character combinations using the latin layout, what cyrillic word was meant, and vice versa - just a few REALLY common words, but still. |
| 01:22 | < gnolam> | I just took up L4D2 again. I've started recognizing Cyrillic leet speech. :P |
| 01:23 | < Alek> | addendum: instead of typing out LOL or the Russian equivalent (there is none, really), they type the capital ? instead. |
| 01:23 | < Alek> | can you see that? |
| 01:23 | < gnolam> | Yep. |
| 01:23 | < Alek> | can you see WHY they use it? XD |
| 01:24 | < gnolam> | Not really, no. |
| 01:24 | < Alek> | because it looks kinda like a squished-together 'lol'. |
| 01:24 | < Alek> | ?_? |
| 01:25 | < gnolam> | ... oh. |
| 01:25 | < gnolam> | Then again - at least if L4D and L4D2 are any guide - the only word you need to know to communicate with Russians online is "?????". :P |
| 01:26 | < gnolam> | ... argh, seems to have been mangled. It was supposed to be "blyad'". |
| 01:26 | < gnolam> | Seriously. I think that word alone accounts for 1/3 of all Russian VOIP traffic. |
| 01:26 | < Alek> | another interesting thing. around the beginning/middle of the past decade, there was a fad to use Albanian dialect in speech and online. or as they called it, "olbanskiy", with the dialect on. :P |
| 01:27 | < Alek> | that one, as well as "huy", together, close to half. XD |
| 01:27 | < Alek> | oh, plus "eb" and its variants. |
| 01:29 | < Alek> | "eb" and "huy" alone are versatile enough that you can, in many cases, speak a whole sentence using just forms of those words. AND make yourself understood. XD |
| 01:29 | < gnolam> | Hah, yes. |
| 01:29 | < gnolam> | Or sometimes "kher", because "khui" would be /rude/. ;) |
| 01:29 | < McMartin> | It amazes me how mutually intelligible the Slavonic langauges are. |
| 01:30 | < McMartin> | They span a continent's worth of area and are all still effectively dialects. |
| 01:30 | < McMartin> | Meanwhile, Spain and Portogal are right next to each other and immediate cousins and can at best make out one word in twenty of the other guy's tongue. |
| 01:31 | < gnolam> | Well, they still differ. For example, "kurva" is a wonderful swear word in both Polish and Czech, but is totally ineffective in Russian. |
| 01:32 | < gnolam> | Khui works in every Slavic language I've come across, though. |
| 01:32 | < Alek> | using just ONE, actually, you can make a whole sentence. >_> |
| 01:32 | < Alek> | with liberal use of pre- and suffixes. XD |
| 01:35 | < Alek> | I see here an example (several sentences, not one, but still), with 19 words, all variants of 1, with only 1 variant repeating (twice). |
| 01:35 | < gnolam> | (Sidenote: "kurva" (meaning "whore" in a bunch of Slavic languages) means "curve" or "graph" in Swedish. A family member of mine had a Polish math teacher. Apparently, that word never stopped getting to him. "So we draw this... *long, pregnant pause* "kurva") |
| 01:37 | < gnolam> | Alek: example! |
| 01:38 | < McMartin> | Ha ha |
| 01:41 | < Alek> | love wiki. XD |
| 01:41 | < Alek> | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olbanian_language |
| 01:43 | < gnolam> | Ah, preved. As in the PREVED bear. :) |
| 01:44 | < Alek> | ????! ??? ????????????! ???? ?????, ?????, ????????? ????? ??????? ???????? ?????? ?????, ???????? ?????? ????? ??????????, ????????????? ????? ???????! |
| 01:57 | < gnolam> | I've reached the end of my Russian knowledge, sorry. |
| 01:57 | < gnolam> | Translation, please. :) |
| 02:00 | < Alek> | Translation: "Wow! You did much too much! For what purpose, why did you, idiots, loaded such a huge amount of this crappy stuff? Are you totally crazy, stupid morons? Enough being lazy, unload this crap faster!" |
| 02:00 | < gnolam> | ... except a bit, err, ruder, I suppose. |
| 02:01 | < Alek> | basically. XD |
| 02:01 | < Alek> | except it's not so much rudeness as it is, well. there's people anywhere who punctuate their speech with expletives, for emphasis. Russians just have made an art of REPLACING the speech with expletives. XD |
| 02:02 | < Alek> | for emphasis. <_< |
| 02:02 | < gnolam> | Heh |
| 02:02 | < gnolam> | But yeah. Played online with Russians. It's pretty much an expletive every second word. :) |
| 02:02 | | * Alek nods. |
| 02:02 | < McMartin> | "What the fuck is this shit, go fuck this shit fucker!" |
| 02:04 | < Alek> | lemme see if I can make an expletivist translation of the above example... |
| 02:04 | | * gnolam is still pissed off at Chernobyl for killing his awesome Russian teacher. |
| 02:08 | < Alek> | "Fuck! You did a crapload! Why the fuck, fuckers, did you wank up such a shitload of fucking crap? Are you fucking insane, cocksucking motherfuckers? Stop wanking off, get this shit the fuck out of here now." |
| 02:08 | | Derakon[AFK] is now known as Derakon |
| 02:09 | < Alek> | not a literal translation, of course, but I think it captures most of the gist. <_< |
| 02:13 | < Alek> | and even without expletives, you can get some interesting multiple meanings. |
| 02:13 | < Alek> | http://bash.org.ru/quote/407560 |
| 02:13 | < Alek> | http://bash.org.ru/quote/407139 |
| 02:14 | < Alek> | the latter more in the area of grammar than multiple meanings, but still good. XD |
| 02:20 | < Alek> | pft. "Press any key." "This one?" "No." |
| 02:25 | < gnolam> | :) |
| 02:27 | | kwsn [kwsn@BAD19E.B5A83A.BEE0B6.388968] has joined #code |
| 02:27 | < gnolam> | I'm actually possibly returning to Chernobyl later this year, BTW. Just in case anyone else wants to join up. |
| 02:27 | < gnolam> | (I just didn't get enough cancer the last time around ;)) |
| 02:27 | | * kwsn waves |
| 02:29 | < gnolam> | (Also, low cost airlines have finally started flying to Kiev, so while we can get to the Ukraine for next to nothing, a tour to the Zone still costs less the more people you can get to join it.) |
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| 02:31 | | * kwsn figured out how much the boards at her desk really are @_@ |
| 02:31 | < gnolam> | What kind of boards? |
| 02:31 | < kwsn> | gnolam: http://www.xes-inc.com/products/view/xcalibur4341/ |
| 02:32 | < kwsn> | the cheapest i7 board we have is 4k >_> |
| 02:34 | < gnolam> | Ah. I was thinking more along the lines of "whiteboards". :) |
| 02:35 | < kwsn> | ah no |
| 02:35 | < kwsn> | i haave one of those though ^_^ |
| 02:39 | < gnolam> | Who hasn't? :) |
| 02:40 | < kwsn> | well i hd to ask for one |
| 02:40 | < kwsn> | :P |
| 02:40 | | * gnolam bought his own. |
| 02:40 | | * kwsn got hers for free ^_^ |
| 02:41 | < gnolam> | Then again, I'm still a student and only employed by the hour. To either save the nation from dirty bombs or to save its frogs from contaminated soil. |
| 02:41 | < kwsn> | i'm a student too o_o |
| 02:41 | < kwsn> | and i'm paid hourly |
| 02:42 | < gnolam> | I hope I still have a fancier lab coat though? ;) |
| 02:42 | < kwsn> | gnolam: i wore a polo shirt to work once |
| 02:43 | < kwsn> | i was more dressed up than the CEO xD |
| 02:43 | < gnolam> | Hah |
| 02:43 | < kwsn> | ^_^ |
| 02:46 | < kwsn> | let me tell you this though |
| 02:46 | < kwsn> | VPX boards? |
| 02:46 | < kwsn> | they are /hard/ to get out of their sockets |
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| 08:49 | < jerith> | McMartin: Do you have a few moments to talk about QBC? |
| 08:51 | < jerith> | The only really annoying thing is having to manually enable and disable quips in the litany. |
| 08:52 | < jerith> | That could possibly be made into a table with "source quip", "action", "target quip". |
| 08:52 | < jerith> | Not sure if that would really be better than the current syntax, though. |
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| 09:22 | < McMartin> | Hm. |
| 09:22 | < McMartin> | Actually |
| 09:22 | < McMartin> | Target Quip can be a list. |
| 09:22 | < McMartin> | Lists didn't exist when I made QBC originally. |
| 09:23 | < McMartin> | Hell, I could even have it be relations, but that's spectacularly verbose. |
| 09:23 | < jerith> | I've just seen the Table of Followups, and I'm unclear on how that works. |
| 09:23 | < jerith> | Ideally, the actions attached to a quip would live in the litany table, but the table structure makes that hard. |
| 09:23 | < McMartin> | Table of Followups is the RQ part. That's for instantaneous reactions that supercede normal reactions. |
| 09:23 | < McMartin> | Yeah |
| 09:24 | < McMartin> | It's gotten a little more, hm, functional. |
| 09:24 | < McMartin> | You can hook up rules. |
| 09:24 | < McMartin> | But then you can't do before/after/etc, and you have to specify it All The Fucking Time at that point. |
| 09:24 | < jerith> | If I could put a snippet of "enable the foo quip; disable the bar quip; turn on the soldering iron", that would be win. |
| 09:25 | < McMartin> | Yeah, that's leading towards "code generator" territory, which I'm considering because it's what Emily Short needed to do |
| 09:25 | < McMartin> | There's a CYOA-focused special language that compiles to JavaScript called "ChoiceScript" and I'm seriously considering looking it over so that I can shamelessly loot it^W^W^WWrite an alternate compiler for it. |
| 09:26 | < McMartin> | Relations have gotten a lot more awesome lately, though. |
| 09:27 | < jerith> | I currently also have a vague professional interest in this. The job offer I accepted half an hour ago involves building multi-platform mobile messaging systems. So you would ideally be able to do the same things via SMS, USSD and IVR. And we'd need a good mechanism for specifying the interaction. |
| 09:27 | < McMartin> | So it might be possible to do, say, "The foo quip leads to the bar, baz, and quux quips", but then you start overloading stuff. List of followups. |
| 09:28 | < McMartin> | I seriously recommend taking a quick look at ChoiceScript, then, what with CYOA being basically a voicemail navigation system used as a game engine. |
| 09:28 | < jerith> | Awesomeness, thanks. |
| 09:28 | < McMartin> | And which I will have a link to as soon as my DNS decides to stop shitting itself |
| 09:29 | < jerith> | It's slightly more complicated, because there's a freeform element as well. |
| 09:29 | < jerith> | http://www.ifwiki.org/index.php/ChoiceScript ? |
| 09:29 | < McMartin> | www.choiceofgames.com |
| 09:29 | < McMartin> | Yeah, that's the one. |
| 09:29 | < jerith> | Stuff like "choose the date of your next clinic visit, given these parameters". |
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| 09:33 | < jerith> | ChoiceScript looks quite useful, thanks. |
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| 10:09 | < jerith> | How easy is it to do something like code generation in I7? |
| 10:09 | < jerith> | Do you need compiler hacks and stuff? |
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| 11:04 | < McMartin> | Well, I did it in FotH by writing a Python script that dumped a bunch of text that I pasted in. |
| 11:05 | < jerith> | Ah. That's one-way, though. |
| 11:05 | < jerith> | And hard to tweak without IDE support. |
| 11:14 | < McMartin> | Pretty much, yes. It's a pain in the butt and you only want to do it once. |
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| 21:33 | < TheWatcher> | Hah, I love it when I realise I've written code that already does something I thought I'd have to work out how to add... |
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| --- Log closed Sat Jun 04 00:00:32 2011 |