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code logs -> 2011 -> Fri, 04 Mar 2011< code.20110303.log - code.20110305.log >
--- Log opened Fri Mar 04 00:00:45 2011
00:03 Vornicus-Latens is now known as Vornicus
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02:48
< ToxicFrog>
Also, Nothing Works
02:48
< ToxicFrog>
Makes me :gonk: and :D at the same time
02:49
<@Vornicus>
899/4/89 on that one.
02:49
<@Vornicus>
Loots of room for improvement, I suspect part of it is "let H atoms come in in different places"
02:55
<@Vornicus>
Ah, here's the one where I actually use 2-bonds-at-once. "Best Left Unanswered" - 115/18
02:56 Derakon[AFK] is now known as Derakon
02:58 * Vornicus then improves that to 79/18, by crushing down four spaces worth of useless loop.
02:58
< ToxicFrog>
Vornicus: it seems that in Nothing Works, the nitrogen condenser and the methane pump generate output at the same rate
02:59
< ToxicFrog>
Which means in practice that you get N twice as fast as you can use it :/
02:59
<@McMartin>
Er
02:59
<@Vornicus>
All the natural sources generate at 1/10clocks
02:59
<@McMartin>
Am I confused? Methane doesn't have any N in it
02:59 * Derakon eyes the lot of you.
02:59
<@Vornicus>
You are, yes.
02:59
<@Derakon>
I'm guessing this is another one of those pseudo-programming games?
02:59
<@Derakon>
Like the Turing machine one?
03:00
<@McMartin>
SpaceChem does sound very much like Manufactoria with chemistry, yes
03:00 * McMartin has not played.
03:00
< ToxicFrog>
McMartin: it's the nitrogen generator.
03:00
< ToxicFrog>
It kicks out N2.
03:00
<@McMartin>
Ah.
03:00
< ToxicFrog>
I only need one N.
03:00
<@Vornicus>
There's a methane pump, and a nitrogen condenser, and they generate molecules once every ten clocks.
03:00
<@Derakon>
The last chemistry game I played was Chiral. ¬.¬
03:00
<@McMartin>
So I'm guessing you need to make ammonia or something here?
03:00
<@Vornicus>
HCN
03:01
<@Vornicus>
There's a bonus level where you make ammonia.
03:01
<@McMartin>
... hydrogen cyanide?
03:01
<@Vornicus>
Yes.
03:01
<@McMartin>
Mean.
03:02
< ToxicFrog>
Vornicus: ok, what's the behaviour if you send two outputs out in different locations at the same time?
03:02
< ToxicFrog>
Does the reciever get them both next time it pumps?
03:02
<@McMartin>
Also, um
03:02
<@McMartin>
So
03:02
<@McMartin>
Deus Ex
03:03
<@McMartin>
I notice the SpaceChem Large Logo
03:03
<@McMartin>
/o\
03:03
< ToxicFrog>
THEY'RE IN ON IT
03:03
<@Vornicus>
TF: so you have two Hs on psi and you hit an out-psi?
03:03
< ToxicFrog>
Vornicus: yes.
03:04
<@Vornicus>
One gets sent per tick, and the waldo at the out-psi pauses until there's none left.
03:04
<@McMartin>
(Also, are you aware you guys shifted channels?)
03:04
<@Vornicus>
(Intentional.)
03:05
< ToxicFrog>
Which one goes first?
03:06
<@Vornicus>
This happens even if you hit two out-psis at once: you can only push one molecule out per tick, because otherwise there's no room in the output pipe.
03:06
<@Vornicus>
Dunno, never got into that situation.
03:06 * ToxicFrog redesigns it so he doesn't have to worry about that - it's not like the nitrogen splitter is going to be the bottleneck here!
03:07
<@Vornicus>
Yeah, my N splitter is a 12n job that dumps both in the same location.
03:08
< ToxicFrog>
The methane splitter, on the other hand
03:08
< ToxicFrog>
This one is going to be ugly.
03:08
<@Vornicus>
The biiiiig bottleneck is the methane splitter.
03:08
<@McMartin>
I assume wastage is allowed; the stoichiometry seems to otherwise not work out
03:08
< ToxicFrog>
Yes.
03:09
<@Vornicus>
HCN + H2
03:09
< ToxicFrog>
This design takes (N2 + CH4) as input and produces (HCN + H2) and N as waste.
03:09
<@Vornicus>
And your stuff pauses when it can't output or input.
03:09
<@Vornicus>
How do you Waste stuff?
03:09
<@McMartin>
?????????????!
03:09
< ToxicFrog>
You don't.
03:10
<@Vornicus>
???
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03:10
< ToxicFrog>
But I assume that once I have the design finished, they scurry out there and add pressure release valves to the pipe so that it doesn't rupture because the N splitter is generating gas twice as fast as the HCN combiner can process it.
03:10
< ToxicFrog>
Or who knows, maybe this is why they keep having mechanical problems~
03:11
<@McMartin>
That equation appears to be one hydrogen short
03:11
<@Vornicus>
Actually the way it works is, if there's already something at the pipe entrance, the waldo that hit the out button will pause.
03:11
<@Vornicus>
teeeechnically it's N2 + 2CH4 = 2HCN + 3H2.
03:12
<@McMartin>
OK, that adds up
03:12
< ToxicFrog>
Vornicus: oh.I hope that isn't a problem
03:13
<@Vornicus>
In production missions you should always put syncs in after any io bottlenecks.
03:13
<@Vornicus>
because otherwise you'll end up out of phase.
03:13
< ToxicFrog>
Hmm. Need to optimize my methane splitter liek woah.
03:14
<@Vornicus>
My methane splitter is 22n, apparently.
03:16
<@Vornicus>
and is decidedly the slowest part.
03:17
< ToxicFrog>
Mine is 25.
03:17
< ToxicFrog>
I see how I can improve it, though.
03:17
<@Vornicus>
if I can shrink that, my HCN generator is 14n.
03:19
<@Vornicus>
And my H2 is 12n, but that runs 3for2, so really it's 18n.
03:20
<@Vornicus>
(which is to say that it takes 18 cycles to eat the output of one methane run.)
03:25
< ToxicFrog>
Optimization complete: 22 cycles to completely disassemble a methane molecule.
03:32 * Vornicus crushes An Introduction To Bonding (1-4) to 102/14
03:33
< Reiv>
TF: You're loving this aren't you ??
03:34
< ToxicFrog>
Yes.
03:34
< ToxicFrog>
It is immensely satisfying.
03:34
<@Vornicus>
84/14
03:43
<@Vornicus>
Removing Bonds: 41/14
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03:50
< ToxicFrog>
Ok, this is embarassing.
03:50
< ToxicFrog>
My methane splitter is generating hydrogen faster than my H2 assembler can process it.
03:50
< ToxicFrog>
Just barely, but still.
03:50
<@Vornicus>
heh.
03:51
< ToxicFrog>
812/91
03:52
<@Vornicus>
Beat me on time.
03:53
<@Vornicus>
Double Bonds: 84/15
03:59
< ToxicFrog>
Argh
03:59
< ToxicFrog>
I totally failed to notice that the bonus level limits you to three reactors
04:01
< ToxicFrog>
This is going to be really ugly
04:04
<@Vornicus>
Multiple Outputs: 108/20.
04:05
< ToxicFrog>
Ok, let's see
04:05
< ToxicFrog>
Re-using my methane cracker from the last level to get methine radicals and free hydrogen.
04:05
< ToxicFrog>
A standard reactor takes in CH and N2, emits CHN to one transport and N to a third factor.
04:06
< ToxicFrog>
That reactor takes in the N, and the H from the methane cracker, and assembles ammonia.
04:07
<@Vornicus>
104/20.
04:11
<@Vornicus>
(for the bonus level: 714/3/61
04:13
< ToxicFrog>
Betting you didn't reuse the methane cracker from the last level for that time.
04:14
<@Vornicus>
No.
04:14
<@Vornicus>
I have N + CH4 = CH + NH3
04:15
< ToxicFrog>
Yeah, I figured
04:16
<@Vornicus>
makes life easier because you don't have to figure out how to shove three hydrogen atoms through a single pipe quickly.
04:22 * Vornicus fiddles with his acetylene solution, things he can do as good as his peroxide one using the same layout instead of the embarassment he has now.
04:22
< ToxicFrog>
My ammonia fabricator is ridiculous.
04:22
< ToxicFrog>
22 symbols...17 of which are packed into a single 2x6 area.
04:23
< ToxicFrog>
Sadly, it can't use hydrogen fast enough.
04:25
<@Vornicus>
gnrk, my peroxide one takes advantage of the fact that the hydrogen comes in already bonded.
04:45
< ToxicFrog>
Bonus level: 832/3/66
04:47
< ToxicFrog>
Bottleneck is the N + CH4 -> CH + NH3 converter.
04:47 * ToxicFrog eyes the shit out of this "defence assignment"
04:48
<@Vornicus>
It's kind of silly, isn't it.
04:50
< ToxicFrog>
Yes, in a "I most certainly did not sign on for this this shit" way.
04:50
< ToxicFrog>
Also, is control A the only one I have availabl?
04:51
<@Vornicus>
You also have B.
04:51
<@Vornicus>
You'll want one of each.
04:51
< ToxicFrog>
Um
04:51
< ToxicFrog>
The only one I can find in my toolbox is A
04:51
< ToxicFrog>
Which is a bit of a problem, because I'm basically making a 1:3 demux here, so I need two control lines
04:53
<@Vornicus>
right click it
04:53
< ToxicFrog>
Aah.
04:53
<@Vornicus>
Same way you do everything else.
04:53
<@Vornicus>
Which is kind of a pain, it'd be nice if I could do that from the keyboard too.
05:05
< ToxicFrog>
And that's the end of the demo.
05:06
< ToxicFrog>
Fstghglyifaisdfj
05:06
<@Vornicus>
Really now.
05:07
< ToxicFrog>
Yes.
05:08
<@McMartin>
Planet 3?
05:09
< ToxicFrog>
Yes.
05:11
< ToxicFrog>
Vornicus: what's your pancake time again?
05:14
<@Vornicus>
Pancake time: 64.
05:15
<@Vornicus>
(using 10 parts)
05:16
< ToxicFrog>
57/9.
05:16
< ToxicFrog>
57/8 for Slightly Different.
05:16
<@Vornicus>
They should be able to use the same code.
05:16
<@Vornicus>
...and... HOW
05:16
< ToxicFrog>
Because I was reading the graph wrong.
05:17
< ToxicFrog>
(I was reading "best" for both)
05:17
<@Vornicus>
Oh, yeah, my best on both is 6.
05:17
<@Vornicus>
for part count.
05:17
< ToxicFrog>
They're both 57/18.
05:17
< ToxicFrog>
Although I think I can trim that down a bit, say 55/20...
05:18
< ToxicFrog>
56/20.
05:18 * Derakon eyes Steam.
05:18
<@Vornicus>
Okay, I'm impressed. How did you do this.
05:18
<@Derakon>
Why is it that when I try to launch the SpaceChem demo, it just takes me to SpaceChem's page in the Steam client?
05:19
<@Derakon>
Fascinating. It needs permission to create a directory in ~ and doesn't have permission.
05:19
<@Derakon>
s/needs permission/needs/
05:20
<@Derakon>
Also, looks like SpaceChem is written in Python.
05:20
<@Vornicus>
o rly
05:20
<@Derakon>
Yep, Console shows it making use of the Python 2.6 framework.
05:20
< ToxicFrog>
Vornicus: http://steamcommunity.com/id/toxicfrog/screenshot/595805138256838206
05:21 * Vornicus considers this.
05:21
<@Vornicus>
Impressive.
05:22
<@Vornicus>
come on, screenshot you silly thing.
05:28
<@Vornicus>
TF, I think you can flip your thing around a bit and it'll work one step faster without any added symbols.
05:28
< ToxicFrog>
Crossover in 155/16, but from the graphs I should be able to get it down to ~130.
05:28
< ToxicFrog>
Which seems unlikely.
05:29
<@Vornicus>
That's my crossover speed too.
05:29
<@Vornicus>
And actually the graph there has a bin split at 150. If you can get it to 150 or lower then you'll be in that bin.
05:30
< ToxicFrog>
Aah.
05:31
<@Vornicus>
I'd really like to see optimization arcs: the hull of bins vs ticks.
05:33
<@Vornicus>
why is my screenshot button not working.
05:34
< ToxicFrog>
117/16 for Intro to Bonding.
05:34
< ToxicFrog>
Dunno, check keybind in steam settings?
05:37
<@Vornicus>
It worked before in GTA
05:38
<@Vornicus>
no, it's the buton I think I'm pressing.
05:38
<@Vornicus>
Oh, wait
05:38
< ToxicFrog>
Bonding is another one where a small number of people have done it significantly faster.
05:38
<@Vornicus>
I didn't download this from Steam~
05:38
< ToxicFrog>
<100 ticks, looks like.
05:38
< ToxicFrog>
That would be the problem, then.
05:39
< ToxicFrog>
Add it to steam as a non-steam game and the screenshot function should work.
05:39
<@Vornicus>
84/14
05:39
< ToxicFrog>
o.O
05:39
< ToxicFrog>
For Bonding?
05:39
<@Vornicus>
Intro to Bonding, yes.
05:40
< ToxicFrog>
HOW?
05:41
<@Vornicus>
Blue moves the bottom thing up, bonds it, then drops it off for red to pick up and shuttle over to the output.
05:41
<@Vornicus>
8n+4
05:43
< ToxicFrog>
Can't red only move one per 10 ticks, though?
05:43
<@Vornicus>
Nope.
05:44
<@Vornicus>
http://steamcommunity.com/id/vornicus/screenshot/541761942726812214?tab=public perhaps there's a bit of mechanic that you're missing.
05:46
< ToxicFrog>
hwaaaaaaaa
05:47
< ToxicFrog>
Yes, it is in fact news to me that you can do that.
05:48
<@Vornicus>
Apparently there are those who have made it even faster!
05:48
< ToxicFrog>
this will make some designs a lot simpler
05:49
< ToxicFrog>
Well, with a simple adjustment of START position you can cut it to 83/14
05:50
<@Vornicus>
So I can.
05:50
<@Vornicus>
But I think the next bar's cutoff is 80, and there's a bit of a bar down there.
05:54
< ToxicFrog>
Yeah. It's a bit more obvious in A Brief History of SpaceChem, which is the same puzzle.
05:56
<@Vornicus>
I also use the shuttle technique in Pancakes, Removing Bonds, and DOuble Bonds.
05:58
< ToxicFrog>
A Brief History in 82.
05:59
<@Vornicus>
how'd you do it?
06:02
< ToxicFrog>
Before entering the main shuttle track, the shuttle travels along a brief straight that lets it call IN ALPHA on the same tick that the other waldo is doing GRAB ALPHA
06:02
< ToxicFrog>
(the shuttle has to be red for this to work, ob.)
06:02
< ToxicFrog>
This cuts one tick from initialization, because blue no longer ne=d]s t ave ]\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\
06:02
< ToxicFrog>
No longer needs to have IN ALPHA between START and GRAB.
06:03
<@Vornicus>
\o/
06:05
<@Vornicus>
ah, of course.
06:05
< ToxicFrog>
?
06:06
<@Vornicus>
the preinit thing.
06:09
< ToxicFrog>
Removing Bonds in 43/14.
06:11
< ToxicFrog>
Sorry, 42/15
06:12
<@Vornicus>
Mine's 41/14
06:18
<@Vornicus>
40/15
06:22
<@Vornicus>
40/14.
06:24
<@Vornicus>
That feels like absolute optimum for time.
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20:05
< ToxicFrog>
Gnar. Why has "et al." become the standard form? "Et alia" is so much prettier!
21:06 Vornicus-Latens is now known as Vornicus
21:49
<@McMartin>
"et al." has been the standard form for as long as I've been aware of the construction at all
21:50
< Alek>
quite.
22:27
< ToxicFrog>
Well yes
22:27
< ToxicFrog>
But it's still ugly
22:28
<@McMartin>
Oh, this isn't "recently" a la the single vs. double-space thing
22:32 * Alek is still upset over that one!
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23:34
< ToxicFrog>
McMartin: yeah, I have no idea when it happened, but probably quite some time ago.
23:34
< ToxicFrog>
That doesn't make it less ugly, though.
23:35
<@McMartin>
Single vs. double is interesting in that both were taught as the One True Way independently for the better part of a century and then suddenly single-space became the universal standard
23:53 * Vornicus actually tends to like 1.1 to 1.5 space.
23:53
<@Vornicus>
Word 2007 seems to agree, giving a default line spacing of 1.15
23:53
<@McMartin>
Vorn: This is "after a period", not line spacing
23:53
<@Vornicus>
Oh.
23:53 * Vornicus still uses 2.
--- Log closed Sat Mar 05 00:00:46 2011
code logs -> 2011 -> Fri, 04 Mar 2011< code.20110303.log - code.20110305.log >
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