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code logs -> 2011 -> Mon, 28 Feb 2011< code.20110227.log - code.20110301.log >
--- Log opened Mon Feb 28 00:00:40 2011
00:33 Attilla [Some.Dude@Nightstar-92c9199f.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 121 seconds]
00:46
< gnolam>
http://whatthecommit.com/
00:52
< Alek>
"Fixed the Israeli-Palestinian conflict."
00:52
< celticminstrel>
XD Didn't get that one.
00:54
< Namegduf>
"put code that worked where the code that didn't used to be" <- The ultimate commit message.
00:56 * Vornicus got a penis emoticon, and then immediately after "Whoa, that one was really hard!"
01:01 You're now known as TheWatcher[T-2]
01:09 You're now known as TheWatcher[zZzZ]
02:22 Kindamoody is now known as Kindamoody[zZz]
03:07 gnolam [lenin@Nightstar-38637aa0.priv.bahnhof.se] has quit [[NS] Quit: Z?]
03:54
< Reiv>
hm
03:54
< Reiv>
Best way to mount and run an iso in Win7?
03:55
< ToxicFrog>
Daemon Tools.
03:56
< ToxicFrog>
It's been the best answer for, what, the last ten years?
03:56
< ToxicFrog>
(to the point that MS is now using it in their tutorials, even)
03:58
< Reiv>
It has indeed been the best answer
03:58
< Reiv>
I was wondering mostly if there had been any change in that answer~
04:41
< Stalker>
There is a viable alternative in Winrar (or winace if you're so inclined).
04:42
< Namegduf>
WinRAR can mount an ISO?
04:43
< Alek>
PowerISO is what I currently use.
04:43
< Alek>
works fine for me.
04:44
< Stalker>
No, Winrar can unpack the iso.
04:44
< Stalker>
I found PowerISO fidgity and bothersome compared to Daemon tools lite.
04:48
< ToxicFrog>
Winrar can unpack an ISO. This is not the same thing and generally not useful for this purpose.
04:51
< Stalker>
In most cases it serves the purpose. And if you only need a single file winrar may be a faster solution.
04:52
< ToxicFrog>
Pretty sure from context elsechannel that Reiv is looking to install Morrowind, so no, it won't help here.
04:52
< ToxicFrog>
If all you want is the contents of the disk, yes, winrar (or fileroller or 7zip or dozens of others) will do the job just fine.
04:52
< ToxicFrog>
But if you want to mount the disc, unpacking it it somewhere is almost never a workable substitute.
04:53
< ToxicFrog>
A surprisingly large proportion of programs will either fail to install entirely, or will install but not run.
04:53
< Alek>
unless you have a directory somewhere that's also permanently mounted as a virtual drive.
04:53
< ToxicFrog>
Yeah, but in that case you might as well just mount the image directly and save time.
04:57
< Stalker>
Oblivion will install fine from an unpack.
04:58
< Stalker>
Unless it's castly different from Fallout 3.
04:58
< Stalker>
Vastly *
04:59
< Alek>
he said Morrowind.
04:59
< Alek>
?_?
04:59 * Alek doesn't have to deal with that since he's got them on Steam. :P
05:01
< ToxicFrog>
(there's also the fact that even for programs that do install and run from an unpack, doing so requires significantly more time and space than just mounting the image)
05:02
< Stalker>
No he didn't.
05:03
< Stalker>
But most people tend to have an unzipping program, not-most people have a mounting program.
05:04
< Stalker>
The time it takes to unpack the file and install it may be less than the time it'd take to find the right version of Daemon tools, install daemon tools, reboot the computer to initialize the API (unless you chose a sufficiently low version, 3.42 I believe (I can check if necessary) ) then mount the image, then install the program.
05:04
< Stalker>
It certainly is easier.
05:05
< Stalker>
3.47 is the last version that does not require a reboot.
05:06
< Stalker>
I excuse for mixing up oblivion and morrowind. They are both part of the elder scrolls series, I thought morrowind was the series name.
05:07
< Stalker>
I am unsure how unpacking morrowind will work.
05:08
< Stalker>
It's from 02, so I think unpacking would be safe, it is for most newer games who tends to care little about wether the disc is in the drive. But it may very well depend on which exact version you have.
05:12
< ToxicFrog>
Er? Yes, I did: <ToxicFrog> Pretty sure from context elsechannel that Reiv is looking to install Morrowind, so no, it won't help here.
05:13
< ToxicFrog>
For doing a single game, yes. For Morrowind (which consists of the base game and two expansions)? Possibly not. Certainly not once you install more than one thing from mounted image.
05:13
< ToxicFrog>
Or if you install anything from DVD and don't have an SSD.
05:13
< ToxicFrog>
Or if the image is on a networked drive.
05:14
< Stalker>
Yeah, you did.
05:16
< ToxicFrog>
Basically, unpacking is the better choice only if all of the following hold: this is the only program you plan to install from image between now and your next reformat; the image is comparatively small, or located on fast storage; you don't mind using twice as much space (or deleting the original image); you know the program will install and run correctly from an unpack.
05:16
< Stalker>
And there's no point in mounting a networked drive, one might argue it could be faster depending on connection speed to mount the iso through a networked drive; but I doubt this is the case.
05:16
< ToxicFrog>
Er? No, what I'm saying is that if the image is of any significant size and located on a networked drive, unpacking it will not in fact be faster than a scratch install of DT.
05:17
< Stalker>
Or if you have the spare space, isn't in a hurry and can't be bothered trying to figure out which version of daemon tools you need, let alone trying to install it.
05:17
< ToxicFrog>
Now you're just making up problems where none exist.
05:17
< ToxicFrog>
What version do you need? The latest.
05:17
< ToxicFrog>
How do you install it? Double-click the installer, mash "next".
05:17
< Stalker>
Lite or nonlite?
05:17
< ToxicFrog>
Ok, the latest free version.
05:17
< Stalker>
And do you like the addbar you get?
05:18
< Stalker>
Otherwise you may want to not mash next.
05:18
< ToxicFrog>
Since Lite is the only one that says "FREE FOR NONCOMMERCIAL USE" next to it, that's the obvious choice.
05:18
< ToxicFrog>
Ok, point on the adbar.
05:18
< ToxicFrog>
Nonetheless, my original point stands
05:19
<@Vornicus>
adbar? whut?
05:19
< ToxicFrog>
Which is that anyone with the minimal level of knowledge needed to get a disc image in the first place will have no trouble whatsoever downloading and installing DT
05:19
< ToxicFrog>
And that in the vast majority of cases, doing so is faster and more reliable than unpacking.
05:19
< Stalker>
I agree.
05:20
< ToxicFrog>
Vornicus: DT offers to install some sort of browser toolbar when installing it.
05:20
< Stalker>
But unpacking it is a viable alternative.
05:20
<@McMartin>
OK, so this means your computer savvy has to be good enough to install Firefox, which tends to do the same, as does the JRE.
05:20
<@McMartin>
This is still an incredibly low bar.
05:20
< ToxicFrog>
I disagree on the "viable" part. An unpack, in addition to being slower and requiring more space, will also randomly and mysteriously fail, whereas a mount will, as a rule, not.
05:21
<@McMartin>
Unpacks also do not masquerade as physical discs
05:21
< ToxicFrog>
It's viable only if you know in advance that the program you're installing will work correctly with an unpack.
05:21
<@McMartin>
Which, when attempting to run off a DOS-era CD product, is definitely problematic.
05:21
< ToxicFrog>
Or anything with even a minimal level of copy protection.
05:21
< ToxicFrog>
Or anything that looks for a disc label to locate its data files.
05:22
< ToxicFrog>
Or anything that assumes the source path can be expressed as a single drive letter.
05:22
< Stalker>
McMartin: That's why I checked how old it was.
05:22
< Stalker>
TF: In other words not most newer games.
05:23
< ToxicFrog>
Yeah, see, IME, "newer" here means "since 1997 or so"
05:24
< Stalker>
that should work.
05:24
< Stalker>
Is unpacking it not a viable alternative, or why are we all suddenly mad at me again?
05:25
< ToxicFrog>
I'm arguing that while it's "viable" for individual programs that you know work, it's not "viable" in the general case because it will fail in many, many cases where mounting will not.
05:27
< Stalker>
"Many, many" ?
05:27
< Stalker>
Is this your experience?
05:27
< ToxicFrog>
Yes.
05:27
< ToxicFrog>
See my earlier lines starting with "or anything".
05:27
< ToxicFrog>
In my experience, this is most games released on optical media in the past 10-15 years.
05:27
<@McMartin>
To generalize, anything with an installation procedure that isn't "copy these files by hand from this location to this other location" will fail without a fake mount.
05:28
< Stalker>
It've worked fine for me for the past five years.
05:28
< Stalker>
Old games and new.
05:28
< Stalker>
And I even have a working copy of Daemon tools installed.
05:29
<@McMartin>
Why would that break it?
05:29
< Stalker>
I just can't be bothered to wait for it to initialize one more drive, and then mount.
05:29
< Stalker>
Then again, I may use a dated and suboptimal solution.
05:29
< Stalker>
I can't honestly think of a game that worked while mounting and not unpacking.
05:30
<@McMartin>
last one I tried that didn't was System Shock 1
05:30
< ToxicFrog>
Wait
05:30
<@McMartin>
Which falls under the "assumes install path is a bare drive"
05:30
< ToxicFrog>
You can't be arsed to wait <1s for DT to mount an image
05:30
< ToxicFrog>
But you can be arsed to wait upwards of a minute to unpack a disc image?
05:30
< ToxicFrog>
Or several minutes, in the case of games that come on multiple DVDs?
05:30
< Stalker>
TF: I usually have to unpack a rar that's chopped up into 15 meg bits anyway.
05:30
< Stalker>
So I tend to have the spare time to unpack everything else too.
05:31
<@McMartin>
This sounds suspiciously like A Different Problem.
05:31
< Stalker>
And yes, there's a big difference (for me at least) between time I have to wait, and waiting for an operation to finish.
05:31
< Stalker>
I'd rather wait one minute for everything to be done than three seconds between each time it requires my input.
05:32
< Stalker>
Even if the total time may only surmount to twenty seconds.
05:32
<@McMartin>
Are you... attempting to mount an iso that's inside a fragmented RAR directly or something?
05:32
< ToxicFrog>
Um
05:32
< ToxicFrog>
Right-click, "mount with daemon tools", wait half a second
05:32
< Stalker>
No, I am attempting to initialize a new drive.
05:32
< ToxicFrog>
I don't see where these multiple three-minute waits between inputs are coming from
05:32
< ToxicFrog>
s/minute/second/
05:33
< Stalker>
Something which version 4.303 does individually, so I have to wait two or three seconds for each new drive I want.
05:33
<@McMartin>
Um
05:33
< Stalker>
Then I have to wait one or two seconds to mount the iso in the drive.
05:33
< ToxicFrog>
So...you're creating a new virtual drive for each and every image you mount?
05:33
<@McMartin>
Whatever it is you're talking about, it isn't the problem TF is describing.
05:33
< Stalker>
No, what TF is describing doesn't work for me on Win7.
05:34
< Stalker>
It didn't work on Vista either.
05:34
< ToxicFrog>
Ummmm
05:34
< ToxicFrog>
I have no idea what your workflow looks like anymore
05:34
< ToxicFrog>
It seems to involve creating lots of virtual drives
05:34
< Stalker>
I can activate the double-click-to-mount feature, but it choses the lowest drive to mount it in, unmounting whatever else may already be there.
05:34
< Stalker>
One for every disc.
05:34
< Stalker>
So that when I'm installing, I don't have to point it elsewhere.
05:35
<@McMartin>
And these discs are all 15MB each?
05:35
< Stalker>
I am shifting work onto the computer, rather than giving it pointers myself, even if time-inefficient.
05:35
<@McMartin>
Yeah, I'm completely baffled by this workflow.
05:35
< Stalker>
No.
05:35
< ToxicFrog>
McMartin: no, concering that
05:35
< ToxicFrog>
He was saying "I get the iso in the form of a 40-part RAR archive"
05:35
< ToxicFrog>
"Since I need to wait two minutes for that to unpack, I might as well wait another two minutes to unpack the iso afterwards, too"
05:36
< ToxicFrog>
Anyways. The direction I'm approaching this from is "I have a program in the form of a disc image. What is the fastest, easiest and most reliable way to install it?" And the answer I come up with is "mount it with something like daemon tools, because this always works and has an overhead of five seconds, four and a half of which are spent navigating to the directory I put the disc image in originally"
05:36
< ToxicFrog>
But then
05:37
< ToxicFrog>
I also don't have a reason to have every disc for everything I've ever installed mounted at once
05:37
< ToxicFrog>
And indeed I don't have enough drive letters to do so anyways
05:38
< Stalker>
If you have the window open in explorer, you can copy the path and paste it into the "open" path of the dialogue to navigate there at once.
05:38
< ToxicFrog>
If I have the window open in explorer there's no dialog, I just frob the image directly.
05:38
< ToxicFrog>
The navigation time I mentioned is the time to go from "empty desktop" to "so that's where I left it"
05:39 celticminstrel [celticminst@1526F6.37AB0D.97233B.788A64] has quit [[NS] Quit: And lo! The computer falls into a deep sleep, to awake again some other day!]
05:40
< Stalker>
Oh, okay.
05:41
< Stalker>
Are newer version of Daemon tools easier to use?
05:41
< Stalker>
And/or significantly better?
05:41
< ToxicFrog>
I have no idea how to answer that question because I still have absolutely no idea why your use patterns are as they are.
05:42
< Tamber>
The newer ones include psychic interface, so you don't have to touch the mouse at all, saving all those seconds!
05:42
< ToxicFrog>
I mean, here's how I use it: I have one drive, V:. When I need a disc image mounted, I right-click it and choose "open with daemon tools" and it mounts on V: and then events proceed as though it were an actual disc, only faster and quieter.
05:42
< ToxicFrog>
This is pretty much how it's worked since I first started using it in 2003 or something.
05:43
< ToxicFrog>
I have no idea how it behaves if you want one drive per image because I have never used it this way.
05:46
< ToxicFrog>
And I still don't understand why you do.
05:47
< ToxicFrog>
Not in the "how could you be so stupid" sense but in the "I genuinely do not understand your thought processes" sense.
06:03
<@McMartin>
Hmm
06:03
<@McMartin>
That's slightly different from what I see on Astatine, actually.
06:03
<@McMartin>
Are you using a 64- or 32-bit version of the Tools?
06:03
<@McMartin>
And is your OS matching?
06:04
<@McMartin>
(In particular, the Explorer integration Astatine sees is limited to "OPEN WITH")
06:04
< ToxicFrog>
(Yes, that's also what I see)
06:05
<@McMartin>
But a stock OPEN WITH fails, you have to set the file assoc.
06:05
< ToxicFrog>
(win7 64-bit; DT, as far as I can tell, is a unified package - there's no choice between 32 and 64 bit)
06:05
< ToxicFrog>
It's worth noting that the file associations were set to DT, and then set back.
06:05
< ToxicFrog>
That may be why Open With works.
06:05
<@McMartin>
Aha. Yeah.
06:10 * ToxicFrog sets about finally ripping his DX disc, as he should have years ago
06:11
< ToxicFrog>
Hmm. I think a maximum violence run this time, I haven't done that yet with Biomod.
06:11 * ToxicFrog sets the HUD color scheme to "Terminator".
06:13
< Alek>
DX?
06:18
< ToxicFrog>
Deus Ex.
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06:28
< Alek>
ah.
06:28
< Alek>
uh, biomod?
06:30
< Reiv>
TF: Would Biomod make such a run easier?
06:30
< ToxicFrog>
A mod that rebalances the game in general and the augs in specific so that are fewer useless skills and augs, and also overhauls the aug UI to suck less.
06:30
< ToxicFrog>
Reiv: only in the sense that it makes all runs easier by unfucking the aug UI.
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06:33
< ToxicFrog>
I just haven't done one before - I found out about Biomod relatively recently, so I've only done one run with it, and that was stealth.
06:33
<@McMartin>
What's this "UI shift" option?
06:34
< ToxicFrog>
"UI shift"?
06:34
<@McMartin>
Aha
06:34
<@McMartin>
Hee.
06:34
<@McMartin>
"Soylent Green"
06:34
< ToxicFrog>
Oh, you didn't know about the configurable menu and HUD colours?
06:34
<@McMartin>
I wasn't aware of how... extensive it was
06:35
<@McMartin>
In other news, I have defeated my retroactive walkthrough check; I found a way to turn one rebreather into two rebreathers and get an aug upgrade canister that is otherwise blocked without Aqualung or Swimming.
06:36
< simon_>
you model check your game?
06:38
<@McMartin>
I tend to play in a more heedless, rushed manner, which means I tend to miss stuff
06:39
<@McMartin>
So I'll get to a primary mission objective, then save, check a walkthrough, and see what awesome stuff I missed and need to go get.
06:42
< ToxicFrog>
Whoops that really could have gone better.
06:42 * ToxicFrog sadly contemplates his empty zapstick while he tapes his leg back on
06:43
< ToxicFrog>
...oh, haha
06:43
< ToxicFrog>
This may explain part of it
06:43
< ToxicFrog>
Totally forgot that Biomod fixes the pistol character creation bug >.>
06:44 AnnoDomini [annodomini@Nightstar-784daf4a.adsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #code
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06:53
< Alek>
ooh, I should look it up next time I play that.
06:59
< Alek>
oh Goddess, I think this is the best Dilbert ever.
06:59
< Alek>
http://www.dilbert.com/fast/2011-02-27/
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07:44
<@McMartin>
TF: Incidentally, you told me it was base-of-spine or head for one-shots with the zapstick?
07:44
<@McMartin>
My experiments say crook-of-knee is the ideal target.
07:44
<@McMartin>
(Or, if seated, where the crook of knee would be)
07:52
< ToxicFrog>
Well, in practice it's "anywhere on the back side of the hitbox"~
07:52
<@McMartin>
Huh.
07:52
<@McMartin>
I'd continually blow it if I tried for headshots.
07:52
<@McMartin>
"Rook for computle telminre somwhele in Revel 2 Rab!"
07:52
<@McMartin>
The HK VAs are so bad
07:54
< ToxicFrog>
Yes :3
07:54
< simon_>
can anyone here tell me how I start a system given an "(initramfs) " console? it seems it's a BusyBox shell, but I don't know which executable I should try to run.
08:05
< simon_>
never midn.
08:05
< simon_>
s/midn/mind/
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11:17
<@AnnoDomini>
Is there some way to edit GRUB stuff graphically?
11:18
<@AnnoDomini>
My Windows OS didn't get automatically detected.
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16:24
< Tamber>
AnnoDomini, sure. Use a GUI text editor. ;)
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16:40
< Stalker>
It appears Version 4.4 of Daemon tools lite is indeed faster.
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19:27
< Vornucopia>
You'd think this would be easier to find, how the heck do I add an external script to an HTML page?
19:30
< gnolam>
<script type="text/javascript" src="http://www.example.com/foo.js" ...
19:31
< Vornucopia>
Thank you.
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19:38
< Stalker>
Also due to browser silliness you may want to load it last on a page.
19:38
< Vornucopia>
How do you mean, and what variety of browser silliness are we discussing here?
19:39 * Alek wonders the same as Vorn.
19:40
< Vornucopia>
(I mean, I understand that onloads are probably a good idea because you don't want it to try running stuff on things that don't exist yet!)
19:40
< Stalker>
I don't know if any modern browsers do it, but older browsers tended to load stuff from top to bottom. So it would get stuck loading external scripts if they were loaded before the body.
19:41
< Vornucopia>
Oh, right, the Usual Suspects of script running from a thing you might not have all of yet.
20:07 Kindamoody|out is now known as Kindamoody
20:58
< Rhamphoryncus>
Stalker: I think that's pretty entrenched behaviour. I recall hearing about some new trick or extension to avoid it. Or maybe that was a new extension that incidentally avoided it
20:58
< Rhamphoryncus>
and by extension I mean new html spec
20:58
< Stalker>
Yeah, it was also rather silly.
21:00
< ToxicFrog>
http://www.buzzfeed.com/frankjg/when-you-write-your-essays-in-programming-langua ge-1hus
21:00
< Vornucopia>
Yeah, HTML5 does something interesting with it.
21:01
< Vornucopia>
But I don't know HTML5 really, yet, and it's not even technically /done/ yet, so I'm not touching it... and in 4 and xhtml you need to use onload if you expect any code that depends on document structure to work.
21:20
< TheWatcher>
Unless you use a framework like mootools, where you get a "domready" event
21:21
< TheWatcher>
but yeah
21:32 * Vornucopia fiddles with random.sample, which is tricky to do efficiently in certain circumstances!
21:45 Vornucopia [NSwebIRC@C888DE.7F9621.E9EB68.73F7B0] has quit [[NS] Quit: Page closed]
23:21 Stalker [Z@3A600C.A966FF.5BF32D.8E7ABA] has quit [Ping timeout: 121 seconds]
23:31 You're now known as TheWatcher[T-2]
23:38 You're now known as TheWatcher[zZzZ]
23:59 gnolam [lenin@Nightstar-38637aa0.priv.bahnhof.se] has quit [[NS] Quit: Reboot. ATI. 'nuff said.]
--- Log closed Tue Mar 01 00:00:41 2011
code logs -> 2011 -> Mon, 28 Feb 2011< code.20110227.log - code.20110301.log >
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