| --- Log opened Thu Oct 28 00:00:18 2010 |
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| 00:15 | <@gnolam> | Casus belli. |
| 00:16 | <@gnolam> | Ah, crap. I was apparently stuck in backscroll. |
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| 06:26 | <@ToxicFrog> | God this is depressing. |
| 06:26 | <@ToxicFrog> | So many people didn't read the spec. |
| 06:26 | <@ToxicFrog> | One has a totally bastard custom build arrangement that doesn't actually work and my best guess at getting it working produces something that won't sqsub because it requires a custom LD_LIBRARY_PATH (what) |
| 06:26 | <@ToxicFrog> | Two so far just segfault outright. |
| 06:29 | <@Vornicus> | Grading? |
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| 06:35 | <@ToxicFrog> | Yep. |
| 06:37 | <@ToxicFrog> | Of the twenty submissions I have to grade, it looks like two of them don't work at all, one of them could be made to work but considering how fucked the makefile is I'm not sure I'm feeling that charitable, and of the remaining 17 perhaps five of them got the output format right. |
| 06:38 | <@ToxicFrog> | And at least one got it really wrong; most of the people clearly read that part of the spec but either skimmed it or implemented from memory (and remembered it wrong), but this guy evidently did not read it at all. |
| 06:38 | <@ToxicFrog> | *most of the people who got it wrong |
| 06:49 | <@Vornicus> | What's the class? |
| 07:13 | <@McMartin> | Are these students unused to "this project will be graded with Diff"? |
| 07:16 | <@ToxicFrog> | McMartin: no. A few lower-year projects are graded entirely automatically, and even the ones that aren't it's common to have output format requirements so the markers can easily do preliminary correctness checks with grep/diff. |
| 07:17 | <@ToxicFrog> | More generally than that, "failure to correctly implement the spec" is a problem no matter which part of the spec they're failing to implement. |
| 07:17 | <@ToxicFrog> | Vornicus: parallel programming. |
| 07:18 | <@Vornicus> | Ah, so you're ...kinda up there. |
| 07:18 | <@Vornicus> | Shame on them. |
| 07:18 | <@ToxicFrog> | Yeah, this is a fourth year undergrad or grad student course. |
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| 15:35 | < gnolam> | http://i.imgur.com/kV8UJ.jpg |
| 16:18 | < Rhamphoryncus> | boo |
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| 16:29 | | mode/#code [+o McMartin] by Reiver |
| 16:52 | <@ToxicFrog> | :( |
| 16:52 | <@ToxicFrog> | Of the twenty submissions: |
| 16:52 | <@ToxicFrog> | - eight run correctly and produce correctly formatted output, and will be getting full marks pending examination of the code itself. |
| 16:53 | <@ToxicFrog> | - three produce the correct results but format the output incorrectly |
| 16:53 | <@ToxicFrog> | - two produce incorrect results |
| 16:53 | <@ToxicFrog> | - one produces no results at all |
| 16:53 | <@ToxicFrog> | - four crash before producing output |
| 16:54 | <@ToxicFrog> | - one doesn't even start |
| 16:54 | <@ToxicFrog> | - and one generates 990,000 lines of debugging information (but no actual results) and then segfaults. |
| 17:10 | <@Namegduf> | Wow. |
| 17:10 | <@Namegduf> | And you say these are fourth year students? |
| 17:10 | <@ToxicFrog> | Yes. |
| 17:11 | <@ToxicFrog> | One or two of them might be third-year students with exceptional grades who got special dispensation to take this course, and I think two of them are grad students; the rest are all at least in their four year, as it's a 4000-level course. |
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| 18:19 | < simon_> | ToxicFrog, Derakon[AFK]: you're the leading abusers of pygame around here, right? |
| 18:21 | < simon_> | ToxicFrog, in my exercise class on the course that I TA, 8 out of 18 dropped out. |
| 18:22 | < simon_> | (this is above the course average, but my class is all girls. somehow girls around here hava a tendency to realize that CS isn't that cool.) |
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| 21:09 | <@jerith> | simon_: I've abused pygame too. |
| 21:10 | <@ToxicFrog> | simon_: I use love2d, not pygame, sorry |
| 21:16 | < simon_> | ToxicFrog, oh! |
| 21:16 | < simon_> | well, I'm just curious. |
| 21:16 | < simon_> | I was looking for a good way to structure my event loop in pygame, but I'd prefer a bit more framework around it. I'll look into love2d. |
| 21:19 | <@jerith> | What kind of game are you writing? |
| 21:19 | <@jerith> | We used a framework on top of pygame both times. pgu and Albow. |
| 21:22 | <@McMartin> | In other news, AGS editor out and opensourced: http://www.bigbluecup.com/yabb/index.php?topic=42063.0 |
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| 22:02 | <@ToxicFrog> | simon_: l2d might be what you're looking for, it has the event loop and whatnot prerolled and you just need to provide callbacks to it. |
| 22:03 | <@ToxicFrog> | That said, I'm sure there are python libraries for pygame that do the same thing. |
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| 22:18 | | mode/#code [+o Derakon] by Reiver |
| 22:19 | <@ToxicFrog> | Welp. Lowest score so for: 0.5/6. |
| 22:19 | <@Derakon> | Yikes. |
| 22:19 | <@ToxicFrog> | Although arguably it actually deserves -1.0/6. |
| 22:20 | <@ToxicFrog> | (0 for does not compile, -0.5 for make clean being unimplemented, -0.5 for no header comments) |
| 22:20 | | * Derakon mutters at opengl.org for being down when he needs documentation. |
| 22:20 | <@Derakon> | Can you load http://www.opengl.org/sdk/docs/man/xhtml/glViewport.xml ? |
| 22:20 | <@ToxicFrog> | However, once I figured out how to compile it I decided to grade it as though it had built first try and just take off a point for the broken makefile. Turns out this doesn't make much difference in the grade~ |
| 22:21 | <@ToxicFrog> | Yes. |
| 22:21 | <@Derakon> | Oookay. |
| 22:21 | <@Derakon> | I can't even find the server from here. |
| 22:22 | <@Derakon> | But yeah, I can ping it from my home computer. |
| 22:22 | <@Derakon> | So I guess I should be muttering at our network admins? |
| 22:22 | <@ToxicFrog> | Probably. |
| 22:23 | | * Derakon hits up lynx then. |
| 22:23 | <@ToxicFrog> | Anyways. Grading it as though it had built, this turns out to work out poorly as well because serial mode generates incomplete results and parallel mode simply crashes. |
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| 22:28 | <@Derakon> | Ah, page loads now. |
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| 22:40 | <@Derakon> | I can't understand how you can be so obsessed with vertical alignment, and yet simultaneously so horrible at it... http://pastebin.starforge.co.uk/433 |
| 22:48 | <@Derakon> | I wish there was some way to have OpenGL export a scene of all the objects you're trying to draw along with the camera, so you could load that up in a 3D modeling program and figure out just why your viewport isn't showing anything. |
| 22:48 | <@Derakon> | "Oh, my camera's pointing backwards. Duh." |
| 22:48 | <@Derakon> | Kinda hard to figure that kind of thing out from trial and error. |
| 22:55 | <@ToxicFrog> | Aaand done. |
| 22:55 | <@ToxicFrog> | :( |
| 22:55 | <@Derakon> | There, there. |
| 22:55 | <@Derakon> | Some students are just going to fail. :\ |
| 22:55 | <@ToxicFrog> | Of the 20 submissions, only ten of them had correct results (and only eight of those implemented the output spec correctly). |
| 22:56 | <@ToxicFrog> | Of the remaining 10, two of them didn't compile as submitted, and seven of them (including the two that needed alterations to compile) crash. |
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| 22:56 | <@Derakon> | And what year are these again? |
| 22:56 | <@Derakon> | How much experience are they supposed to have? |
| 22:57 | <@ToxicFrog> | (and of the last three, one produces no output, one solves 1/4 of the problem correctly and is missing a core feature, and one solves 1/2 of the problem incorrectly. But they don't crash.) |
| 22:58 | <@ToxicFrog> | Fourth year, or third year with exeptional grades who have gotten special permission, or Master's/PhD. |
| 22:59 | <@Derakon> | Hm. |
| 22:59 | <@Derakon> | That does seem to be a rather poor ratio. |
| 22:59 | <@ToxicFrog> | So, they're expected to have at least three years of solid programming experience in at least four languages. |
| 22:59 | <@ToxicFrog> | (including C, the one used for this assignment) |
| 23:00 | <@Derakon> | Given the note that the programs had to compile, I rather assumed it was C or C++. |
| 23:00 | <@ToxicFrog> | Furthermore, this is an elective - it is actually Special Topics in Computing, running with the same subject for the second year in a row due to popular demand - so everyone taking it is, hopefully, independently interested in the topic rather than merely hoping to eke out a pass and get out. |
| 23:01 | <@ToxicFrog> | Several courses use Java here too, and Haskell, Scala and Ada are not unheard of. |
| 23:01 | <@ToxicFrog> | But this assignment (and the next one) are all C. |
| 23:02 | <@Derakon> | Java doesn't generally require makefiles. |
| 23:02 | <@Derakon> | I haven't worked with Scala or Ada. |
| 23:02 | <@ToxicFrog> | Java generally requires something, it's just traditionally ant rather than make because the Java community has a raging hard-on for XML~ |
| 23:03 | <@ToxicFrog> | Scala targets the JVM and has roughly identical build semantics to Java. |
| 23:03 | <@ToxicFrog> | Ada I have no idea, I just know that it's compiled. |
| 23:03 | <@ToxicFrog> | Anyways. You're right for this course, it's C for the first three assignments and then student's choice for the term project. |
| 23:06 | <@ToxicFrog> | And yeah, I might expect a 50% failure rate if this was their first assignment in C ever, but it's not - they all learned it in first year and have been using it since. |
| 23:06 | <@ToxicFrog> | Not to mention the more general lessons like "test your shit" |
| 23:10 | <@Derakon> | Yeah, dunno what to tell you about that one. |
| 23:10 | <@Derakon> | It's not like they can't tell that the thing doesn't build/run. |
| 23:22 | <@kazrikna> | Hmm. I wonder... |
| 23:22 | <@kazrikna> | Same build environment? |
| 23:22 | <@kazrikna> | did they forget files? |
| 23:25 | <@McMartin> | TF: It's traditionally ant rather than make because make has a completely avoidable 10-300x slowdown when compiling Java. |
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| --- Log closed Fri Oct 29 00:00:20 2010 |