| --- Log opened Sat Sep 25 00:00:52 2010 |
| 00:22 | | kw-school-n is now known as kwsn |
| 00:33 | < Tarinaky> | Grr. :/ I can never seem to get "Every turn when something" to work :/ |
| 00:34 | < Tarinaky> | A person can be in pain. Every turn while you are in pain, say "You are in massive amounts of pain." |
| 00:39 | | Vornicus-Latens is now known as Vornicus |
| 00:39 | <@McMartin> | "when the player is in pain" |
| 00:39 | < Tarinaky> | Yourself is worked >.< |
| 00:40 | <@McMartin> | That also works, as long as the player never changes. |
| 00:40 | < Tarinaky> | In this case, yes. |
| 00:41 | < Tarinaky> | I'm trying to set up a puzzle where the character's leg is broken and thus can't move in a direction without first building a crutch. |
| 00:50 | | Derakon[AFK] is now known as Derakon |
| 00:56 | <@ToxicFrog> | Tarinaky: the key here is "every turn when", not "every turn while" |
| 00:56 | < Tarinaky> | ? Every turn while works? |
| 00:59 | <@McMartin> | I think while works, actually, but "when" is the canonical form |
| 00:59 | < Tarinaky> | Problem. You wrote 'Instead of going a direction, say "You can't walk on a broken leg!"' : but this is a phrase which I don't recognise, |
| 01:01 | <@McMartin> | That's a problem for several reasons, though I don't see anything immediately wrong with it. |
| 01:01 | <@McMartin> | going is special because it has a bunch of prepositional phrases attached and they're checked at different times... |
| 01:01 | <@McMartin> | ... it's problematic because that rule will block going *always*. |
| 01:01 | <@McMartin> | You shouldn't need to say "going a direction", however, because go only ever applies to directions |
| 01:01 | <@McMartin> | "Instead of going" should be fine |
| 01:02 | < Tarinaky> | It's nested inside a conditional. |
| 01:02 | < Tarinaky> | But yeah. It's not compiling. :/ |
| 01:03 | <@McMartin> | Er. |
| 01:03 | < Tarinaky> | http://tarinaky.pastebin.com/c7ZsTJ7s |
| 01:03 | <@McMartin> | Nested inside a conditional? |
| 01:04 | <@McMartin> | Er, yeah, that won't compile |
| 01:04 | <@McMartin> | "Instead" is a class. |
| 01:05 | <@McMartin> | Rules are organized into rulebooks, which are organized into actions or activities. |
| 01:05 | < Tarinaky> | >.< |
| 01:05 | <@McMartin> | Actions are processed according to a set of six rulebooks; Before (global), Instead (global), Check (per-action), Carry Out (per-action), After (global), Report (per-action). |
| 01:06 | <@McMartin> | You've done the equivalent of trying to define a class inside an if-statement to express that the class means these methods when that condition is true. |
| 01:06 | < Tarinaky> | Ah. I misunderstood how it worked. |
| 01:06 | <@McMartin> | Yeah |
| 01:06 | <@McMartin> | What you need here is something more like: |
| 01:07 | <@McMartin> | Instead of going when leg is broken (this is the Broken Leg Rule): say "Can't go." |
| 01:07 | < Tarinaky> | How would I make it so that only applied in a single region? |
| 01:07 | <@McMartin> | That will file it in the Instead rulebook in the action processing rules, and the rule will only fire (thus blocking the action, as Instead and After will do by default) if the condition holds. |
| 01:08 | <@McMartin> | Instead of going when leg is broken and the location is in Basement: |
| 01:08 | <@McMartin> | (You can also do if checks inside the instead rule, but since Instead will by default *block* what happens if the initial conditions hold you will need to give an explicit "else: continue the action" as the case where nothing happens. Better to put it in the rule prelude as I give.) |
| 01:09 | <@McMartin> | (This also assumes that Basement is the region name) |
| 01:15 | < Tarinaky> | And not carrying a crutch? |
| 01:17 | <@McMartin> | Hmm |
| 01:17 | <@McMartin> | It sounds like what you really want is a new adjective. |
| 01:17 | <@McMartin> | Off the top of my head, and my syntax may be a little off, but... |
| 01:18 | <@McMartin> | To decide whether or not a person (called the dude) is crippled: if the region is Basement and the dude is not carrying the crutch and leg is broken, decide yes; otherwise, decide no. |
| 01:20 | < Tarinaky> | Ahah. I think I know what I was doing wrong. |
| 01:24 | | Derakon is now known as Derakon[FF4DS] |
| 01:26 | < Alek> | hrm. |
| 01:26 | < Alek> | it's been a while since I did XHTML, but I'm not sure if this is even possible... |
| 01:26 | < Alek> | making a form such that later elements are affected by earlier ones... |
| 01:27 | < Alek> | for example, displaying element Y only if element X is true. |
| 01:27 | < Alek> | or displaying Z copies of element Q where Z is the value in element P. |
| 01:35 | <@ToxicFrog> | It's possible using javascript and adjusting the visibility attribute. |
| 01:48 | < Alek> | mh. |
| 01:48 | < Alek> | thought it'd be java. |
| 01:49 | < Alek> | hoped not, but oh well. |
| 01:49 | < Alek> | basically, I need to make a form, where whether later elements are shown/used, and how many, depends on answers to earlier elements. |
| 01:49 | < Alek> | something that can load saved form data as well. |
| 01:50 | < Alek> | and isn't proprietary or commercial, but GPL. |
| 01:51 | | AnnoDomini [annodomini@Nightstar-7d67b83e.adsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [[NS] Quit: leaving] |
| 01:51 | < Alek> | or if a language can make this. like C++ perhaps? VC? |
| 01:58 | < celticminstrel> | You want JavaScript, I think. |
| 01:58 | < Tarinaky> | Grr. I can't seem to get an item to materialise :/ |
| 01:59 | <@McMartin> | Tarinaky: How are you working on this? |
| 01:59 | <@McMartin> | Generally, you start with an object with no location specified and then move it to the location when you want it to appear |
| 01:59 | < Tarinaky> | improvised crutch is a crutch. |
| 02:00 | < Tarinaky> | Carry out Making Crutch: |
| 02:00 | < Tarinaky> | remove Shelf A from play; |
| 02:00 | < Tarinaky> | remove Shelf B from play; |
| 02:00 | < Tarinaky> | A crutch called improvised crutch is now carried by You. |
| 02:00 | < Tarinaky> | You wrote 'A crutch called improvised crutch is now carried by You' : but this is a phrase which I don't recognise |
| 02:00 | <@McMartin> | "Now the improvised crutch is carried." |
| 02:00 | <@McMartin> | I think. |
| 02:01 | <@McMartin> | maybe "is carried by yourself", but IIRC carried/worn apply only to the player. |
| 02:01 | < Tarinaky> | I had to add carried by you. |
| 02:02 | < Tarinaky> | Nope. That didn't work. |
| 02:02 | < Tarinaky> | It compiled but it didn't make anything. |
| 02:02 | <@McMartin> | Er |
| 02:02 | <@McMartin> | Try > SHOWME IMPROVISED |
| 02:02 | <@McMartin> | See what it says the location is. |
| 02:03 | <@McMartin> | "You" shouldn't work, unless you've got an object called "YOU" that's floating out there somewhere. |
| 02:03 | <@McMartin> | > SHOWME YOU might also be worthwhile. |
| 02:03 | < Tarinaky> | Improvised crutch - crutch |
| 02:03 | < Tarinaky> | location: You in pain out of play |
| 02:03 | < Tarinaky> | unlit; inedible; portable |
| 02:03 | < Tarinaky> | printed plural name: crutches |
| 02:03 | < Tarinaky> | proper-named |
| 02:03 | < Tarinaky> | printed name: Improvised crutch |
| 02:04 | <@McMartin> | > SHOWME YOU |
| 02:04 | <@McMartin> | You've got an object named "You in pain" it sounds like. |
| 02:04 | | * Alek nods. |
| 02:04 | < Alek> | ok, time to learn Java it is. <_< |
| 02:04 | <@McMartin> | Alternately, you have a room named "You in pain out of play" ? |
| 02:04 | <@McMartin> | We'll want to call up the World Index, I think. |
| 02:05 | <@McMartin> | Look for rooms and things you didn't think you defined. |
| 02:05 | < Tarinaky> | Yeah. I know. |
| 02:05 | < Tarinaky> | I've found the bug. |
| 02:05 | < Tarinaky> | A person can be in pain or not in pain. Every turn when Yourself is in pain, say "You are in massive amounts of pain." |
| 02:05 | < Tarinaky> | You are in pain. |
| 02:06 | <@McMartin> | I think you confused the compiler there. |
| 02:06 | <@McMartin> | "Yourself is in pain." |
| 02:06 | <@McMartin> | But you really don't want that either. |
| 02:06 | < Tarinaky> | It's the 'in' that confuses it. |
| 02:06 | <@McMartin> | That looks like you're setting the start room. |
| 02:06 | <@McMartin> | Also, you don't have to specifically note "not" |
| 02:07 | <@McMartin> | You can just have "A person can be hurting." |
| 02:07 | <@McMartin> | And that will automatically create "not hurting" as the opposite. |
| 02:07 | < Tarinaky> | I chose pained. |
| 02:07 | <@McMartin> | It's only when you want "A person can be hurting or hale" that you need to give all the options. |
| 02:09 | | kaura [kaura@Nightstar-fd82400d.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has quit [[NS] Quit: ILF: neener neener neener~] |
| 02:09 | < celticminstrel> | Alek: Not Java. JavaScript. |
| 02:10 | < Tarinaky> | Your leg is broken. seems to have stopped working. |
| 02:11 | < Tarinaky> | The leg of yourself is broken doesn't compile. |
| 02:11 | <@McMartin> | Body parts is not easy. |
| 02:12 | <@McMartin> | Can you pastebin all the code involving your limbs? |
| 02:12 | < Tarinaky> | Sure. It's not that much. |
| 02:12 | < Tarinaky> | I'm only wanting to track the leg. |
| 02:13 | < Tarinaky> | http://tarinaky.pastebin.com/bzSX16wk |
| 02:13 | | gnolam [lenin@Nightstar-38637aa0.priv.bahnhof.se] has quit [[NS] Quit: Z?] |
| 02:15 | <@McMartin> | I would not attach this to every person. That's just asking for crazy disambiguation and nonsensical answers |
| 02:15 | <@McMartin> | As written, this will have "EXAMINE MARY'S LEG" result in "Your leg is fine." |
| 02:16 | < Tarinaky> | Point. |
| 02:17 | <@McMartin> | Possible amendment submitted. |
| 02:18 | <@McMartin> | (I don't recall if -- is a valid alternative in Understand clauses yet.) |
| 02:23 | < Tarinaky> | How do I alter the crippled definition? |
| 02:24 | <@McMartin> | "now the legs are crippled." |
| 02:24 | <@McMartin> | Oh |
| 02:24 | <@McMartin> | "and the legs are broken and..." |
| 02:25 | < Tarinaky> | Derp. Thanks, I didn't see the leg/legs thing >.< |
| 02:26 | <@McMartin> | If you include the Plurality extension by Emily Short, the legs would also do well to be defined as "ambiguously plural" |
| 02:27 | <@McMartin> | This will mean that they will count as it and they once referred to. |
| 02:35 | < Tarinaky> | I don't think I'm ready for extensions yet :/ |
| 02:42 | <@ToxicFrog> | Alek: JavaScript and Java are not the same language, and in fact have almost nothing in common, |
| 02:42 | <@ToxicFrog> | The reason you use JavaScript for this is that it runs in the browser in response to user actions. |
| 02:42 | <@ToxicFrog> | So you can, for example, embed javascript in a page that toggles the visibility of some form elements whenever the user toggles a checkbox. |
| 02:43 | <@ToxicFrog> | (and in fact if you look up some sites that do this and read the source you will get some (probably horribly written) real-world examples of this) |
| 02:44 | <@ToxicFrog> | As for saved form data and whatnot, that happens on the server. |
| 02:44 | <@ToxicFrog> | Basically, you'll have three components here: |
| 02:44 | <@ToxicFrog> | - the backend on the server that generates the form and sends it to the browser, possibly populating it based on cookies/database entries/etc |
| 02:44 | <@ToxicFrog> | - the HTML that describes the form |
| 02:45 | <@ToxicFrog> | - the JavaScript embedded in the HTML (or in a seperate file that is inlined client- or server-side) that runs on the browser to dynamically show or hide elements. |
| 02:46 | < Alek> | yes, thank you. -_- |
| 02:47 | < Alek> | ok, so I was halfway right in thinking I could use XHTML to define the form's looks. |
| 02:50 | <@ToxicFrog> | XHTML+CSS? |
| 02:52 | | Tarinaky [Tarinaky@Nightstar-f349ca6d.plus.com] has quit [Connection closed] |
| 02:52 | < Alek> | exactly. |
| 02:53 | < Alek> | and it being server-side is a definite plus. |
| 02:53 | < Alek> | since the finished app would be a cloud app. |
| 02:53 | < Alek> | right now all I really need is a working sample. |
| 02:55 | < celticminstrel> | JavaScript can actually handle form data (GET method only, I presume), though that'd probably be a suboptimal way of handling the form. |
| 02:59 | <@ToxicFrog> | And obviously precludes any sort of server-side handling. |
| 03:01 | | Thaqui [Thaqui@27B34E.D54D49.F53FA1.6A113C] has quit [Connection closed] |
| 03:06 | < celticminstrel> | What precludes server-side handling> |
| 03:06 | < celticminstrel> | ? |
| 03:08 | <@ToxicFrog> | Handling it all in javascript. |
| 03:42 | | * Alek pokes CO2-cartridge air dusters. |
| 03:43 | < Alek> | first cartridge lasted all of 2 minutes. |
| 03:43 | < Alek> | second cartridge appears to be a nonstarter. unless there's something STILL frozen in the mechanism from the first cartridge. |
| 05:51 | | * Vornicus apparently needed that nap. |
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| 07:46 | < Tarinaky> | :x I think I might have a playable demo/level of an IF in a few hours. |
| 08:07 | <@McMartin> | Nice. |
| 08:07 | | * McMartin will happily break the shit out of it for you if you want~ |
| 08:08 | <@McMartin> | I mean, beta-test it >_> |
| 08:08 | < Tarinaky> | Aww, you can't take things off a person / |
| 08:08 | < Tarinaky> | *:/ |
| 08:08 | | * Tarinaky wonders if there's a fix or if he should make the body a container. |
| 08:08 | <@McMartin> | Are you getting something like "that seems to belong to (person)"? |
| 08:08 | < Tarinaky> | Yes. |
| 08:08 | <@McMartin> | Is this pickpocketing, or looting corpses? |
| 08:09 | < Tarinaky> | Looting corpses. |
| 08:09 | <@McMartin> | Person has a lot of behavior associated with it that assumes they're animate. You're better off having corpses just be things that are open, unopenable containers. |
| 08:10 | <@McMartin> | (There are various text tricks to make it describe right, but otherwise you're going to have things like BOB, WAKE UP giving 'Bob's corpse has better things to do.'" |
| 08:10 | < Vornicus> | *snrk* |
| 08:11 | < Tarinaky> | "In Coulomb is Coulombs Keycard." |
| 08:11 | < Vornicus> | apostrophe. |
| 08:11 | < Tarinaky> | Not 100% happy with that wording :/ |
| 08:12 | < Vornicus> | TOugh. |
| 08:12 | < Tarinaky> | Lol. |
| 08:16 | < Tarinaky> | I -think- I've done everything I need to do for the first level to work now. |
| 08:18 | < Tarinaky> | The thing is a little... flakey on how I should share it with others. |
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| 08:19 | | Derakon[FF4DS] is now known as Derakon |
| 08:32 | < Tarinaky> | McMartin: What do I need to do for you to break my IF? |
| 08:37 | | Derakon is now known as Derakon[AFK] |
| 08:53 | < jerith> | Tarinaky: There should be a "publish" option or something. |
| 09:08 | < Tarinaky> | Yeah, that gives me a .zblorb file. |
| 09:10 | < Vornicus> | Throw that at McM; blorb is a common IF game format. |
| 09:10 | < Tarinaky> | He's not accepting DCC sends. |
| 09:11 | < Vornicus> | You can also send it to me. |
| 09:12 | < Vornicus> | (email: vorn@nightstar.net ) |
| 09:12 | | You're now known as TheWatcher |
| 09:13 | < Tarinaky> | Sent. |
| 09:16 | < Vornicus> | got it. I'll have a look at it in a bit. |
| 09:16 | | Anno[Laptop] [annodomini@Nightstar-cfab2dd6.adsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #code |
| 09:22 | < Tarinaky> | Cheers. |
| 09:53 | | Rhamphoryncus [rhamph@Nightstar-473f8685.abhsia.telus.net] has quit [Client exited] |
| 10:08 | | Vornicus is now known as Vornicus-Latens |
| 10:15 | | Anno[Laptop] [annodomini@Nightstar-cfab2dd6.adsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [[NS] Quit: Finally trying to automount disks.] |
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| 10:33 | < Anno[Laptop]> | I highly dislike how mounting disks is done under Linux, or at least Debian. |
| 10:33 | < Anno[Laptop]> | Determining what partitions are what devices is pure trial and error. |
| 10:34 | < Tarinaky> | That's what /mnt/fstab is for :/ |
| 10:34 | < Tarinaky> | Gah |
| 10:34 | < Tarinaky> | /etc/fstab even |
| 10:34 | < Tarinaky> | >.< |
| 10:35 | < Anno[Laptop]> | Asshat, I know what that's for. I need to determine the devices to PUT THEM THERE. |
| 10:36 | < Tarinaky> | You should know the labelling from when you formatted the devices in the first place :/ |
| 10:36 | < Tarinaky> | Then you ls /dev/disk/by-uuid to find out which uuid corresponds to what device. |
| 10:37 | < Tarinaky> | Then save the information in fstab before you forget. |
| 10:37 | < Tarinaky> | >.> <.< >.> |
| 10:37 | < Namegduf> | Or you use LABEL=<label> in /etc/fstab instead of the patch to the device. |
| 10:37 | < Anno[Laptop]> | Tarinaky: Windows disks, for a Windows installation prior to the Linux one. |
| 10:37 | < Namegduf> | (Mostly useful for USB drives, whose device will change at random based on the order of being connected) |
| 10:37 | < Namegduf> | I don't think there is, technically, another way. |
| 10:38 | < Tarinaky> | Anno[Laptop]: I'd open up the partition table in fdisk. |
| 10:38 | < Namegduf> | You ned to view the list of devices in some partitioner or view by label, and then assign said devices to points. |
| 10:38 | < Tarinaky> | That will give you the size of each disk. |
| 10:38 | < Namegduf> | Windows partitions do, however, generally have labels |
| 10:38 | < Tarinaky> | But you need to be really careful when you use fdisk. |
| 10:38 | < Anno[Laptop]> | I did not memorize the correspondence between disk content, letter, label and was not privy to the device name Linux attached to it automatically. |
| 10:39 | < Namegduf> | What you're asking is the computer to automatically detect the content of partitions and tell you which is which somehow. |
| 10:40 | < Anno[Laptop]> | Namegduf: I successfully automounted all my stuff. I am complaining that it is a complete pain in the ass. |
| 10:40 | < Namegduf> | Fair enough, but it's more a limitation of how partitions work than of Linux. |
| 10:40 | < Anno[Laptop]> | Namegduf: No, but a list of disk devices somewhere with /dev/ names would be welcome. |
| 10:40 | < Namegduf> | "Disk devices" in what sense? |
| 10:41 | < Namegduf> | Partition labels? Partition IDs? |
| 10:41 | < Namegduf> | What information are you suggesting it should provide, mapped to name in /dev? |
| 10:41 | < Anno[Laptop]> | Disk 1, ntfs, "STUFF"; Disk 2, ntfs, "FILMS"; Disk 3, fat, "FREEDOS"; |
| 10:41 | < Anno[Laptop]> | Etc. |
| 10:41 | < Namegduf> | "STUFF" is a label. |
| 10:42 | < Anno[Laptop]> | Yes. |
| 10:42 | < Namegduf> | If you want to mount based on label, you can actually just write LABEL=STUFF in /etc/fstab instead of a device path. |
| 10:43 | < Namegduf> | Or you can use ls /dev/disk/by-label |
| 10:43 | < Namegduf> | In which case /dev/disk/by-label/STUFF is a symlink to the appropriate normal /dev/ file. |
| 10:43 | < Anno[Laptop]> | Uhuh. |
| 10:44 | < Anno[Laptop]> | I happen to have labelless disk, though. |
| 10:44 | < Anno[Laptop]> | +one |
| 10:44 | < Tarinaky> | That's hardly Linux's fault. |
| 10:45 | < Namegduf> | You can use the process of elimination and see which file in /dev/ is left. If you can't do that (multiple files?) then you need to figure out another way to tell them apart. |
| 10:45 | < Anno[Laptop]> | Namegduf: I know, I did this. |
| 10:45 | < Namegduf> | Then I don't see the problem. |
| 10:46 | < Namegduf> | You can figure out on what parameters you want to recognise partitions, then look up which partition meets which parameters. |
| 10:47 | < Namegduf> | The first step being done automatically is a little much to expect, and the second sounds like it wasn't a huge problem. |
| 10:47 | < Anno[Laptop]> | Tarinaky: It is Linux's fault, however, that I get a list of unmounted devices by label in the computer:/// location... WITHOUT device names anywhere in their properties, offering a context menu option of mounting them then complaining that I don't have the rights, even though I'm not permitted to login as root in the graphical environment. |
| 10:48 | < Namegduf> | That's not really unreasonable. |
| 10:48 | < Tarinaky> | The fact that you said graphical environment makes it not Linux's fault :p |
| 10:48 | < Tarinaky> | That makes it your graphical environment's fault :p |
| 10:48 | < Namegduf> | In terms of UI, it's clearly designed for a case where all non-user-mountable devices are always mounted. |
| 10:48 | < Namegduf> | Which is a safe assumption. |
| 10:48 | < Namegduf> | And not designed for use as an alternative to /etc/fstab. |
| 10:49 | < Namegduf> | Well, it obviously isn't safe, but it's a reasonable thing. |
| 10:49 | < Namegduf> | It's for mounting USB devices (which are, normally, user mountable), not HDD partitions. |
| 10:50 | < Anno[Laptop]> | Perhaps it's a problem with my expectations. Maybe it's unreasonable to expect for someone with less than complete *nix lore to access their disks. |
| 10:51 | < Namegduf> | The sole difference between it and Windows is that Windows will automatically mount things in a basically random order if it can. |
| 10:51 | < Anno[Laptop]> | Yes. |
| 10:51 | < Anno[Laptop]> | That's what I expect. |
| 10:51 | < Tarinaky> | It is a security liability for a non-user to mount a device since you can do far too much havoc. |
| 10:52 | < Namegduf> | It's also kind of useless as a step towards getting a good permanent setup in a *nix tree. |
| 10:52 | < Namegduf> | And if you want to reorder drive letters or do such on Windows, you need an equivalent level of expertise. |
| 10:52 | < Tarinaky> | If you want to set up where you Hard Disk is mounted you need to edit fstab. You're either doing it by hand or using a front end. Nothing changes that. |
| 10:53 | < Tarinaky> | If all you want is for disk to be mounted in a random order then just fill it out systematically. |
| 10:53 | < Anno[Laptop]> | Reordering is what I consider non-essential. Getting access at all is essential. If it was the reordering that took as much effort to set up rather than getting automatic access at login, that would be fine. |
| 10:53 | < Tarinaky> | But that's probably not very useful. |
| 10:53 | < Namegduf> | I'll agree with you here. |
| 10:54 | < Namegduf> | It isn't sensible to expect it to somehow know without any specific distinguishing factors from the user which partition is which, and it's a minor failing to have it fail to handle non-user-mountable, unmounted drives as such should not be a normal state. |
| 10:55 | < Namegduf> | But automounting everything would be nice for Ubuntu users. |
| 10:55 | < Namegduf> | Or, well, newbies. |
| 10:55 | < Namegduf> | Not that useful in the long run for everyone else who will want to get a more sane setup, but useful for people who can't. |
| 10:56 | < Anno[Laptop]> | Mhm. |
| 10:56 | < Tarinaky> | Without wanting to seem too elitist it's very difficult to see a good reason for wanting to support newbies. |
| 10:56 | < Namegduf> | I would like automounting in / by label, myself, for internal drives only. |
| 10:56 | < Namegduf> | But that's just my tastes. |
| 10:59 | | * Anno[Laptop] envisions some theoretical sort of company that makes indestructible, maintenance-free devices with warranties running for thousands of years. Something like Exalted artifacts. |
| 11:00 | < Namegduf> | ChromeOS devices. |
| 11:00 | < Namegduf> | iPad's, too, a little. |
| 11:00 | < Tarinaky> | Anno[Laptop]: If they're indestructible why would anyone replace them? |
| 11:00 | <@TheWatcher> | And, at that point, you've put yourself out of business~ |
| 11:00 | < Namegduf> | ChromeOS has some interesting design work focused around making it always possible to return to a clean initial OS, and having such done automatically on any kind of update failure. |
| 11:01 | < Namegduf> | Probably more interesting than the browser-based "UI" idea. |
| 11:02 | < Anno[Laptop]> | Tarinaky: Because we live in an imperfect world you have a fantastic (and literal) notion of the word 'indestructible'. |
| 11:02 | <@TheWatcher> | I suspect that you mean "robust" rather than "indestructible" |
| 11:02 | < Anno[Laptop]> | Yeah. |
| 11:03 | < Tarinaky> | If only a statistically insignificant number of devices have problems there's only a statistically insignificant sum of money to be made in support contracts, replacement parts... |
| 11:03 | < Anno[Laptop]> | Something that, in a million years, a spacefaring civilization that comes to our world will still find in recognizable state. |
| 11:03 | < Tarinaky> | Anno[Laptop]: In a million years nothing will remain of the human race tech or otherwise. |
| 11:04 | < Anno[Laptop]> | That's what I'm saying. |
| 11:04 | < Tarinaky> | An innert block of concrete won't last that long. |
| 11:04 | < Tarinaky> | Even a totally chemically inert compound, wrought into a solid block will errode. |
| 11:04 | < Tarinaky> | *erode |
| 11:04 | < Tarinaky> | By physical means. |
| 11:05 | < Anno[Laptop]> | You have no faith in human technological potential. |
| 11:05 | < Namegduf> | If it's under warranty, they'll have to replace it, you see. |
| 11:06 | < Tarinaky> | Anno[Laptop]: In the words of the great philosopher-engineer, "You cannae change the laws of physics" |
| 11:06 | < Anno[Laptop]> | Yes, you can. We did it dozens of times until now. |
| 11:07 | < Tarinaky> | No. We just happened to get them spectacularly wrong. |
| 11:07 | < Anno[Laptop]> | You seem to have the notion that the 'laws of physics' aren't just human constructs erected to understand reality better. |
| 11:08 | < Tarinaky> | They're a model of an underlying mechanic. |
| 11:08 | < Tarinaky> | An underlying mechanic that is unobtainable. |
| 11:08 | < Tarinaky> | But, non-the-less, there. |
| 11:09 | < Anno[Laptop]> | Yes. Then why do you assume that with the current model - imperfect as it is - we are able to correctly gauge what we will be able to do in the future, when the model inevitably changes? |
| 11:10 | < Namegduf> | I wonder if a solid block of metal would last for millions of years. |
| 11:10 | < Tarinaky> | I don't believe it's proper for anything to exist forever in a constant, unchanged, state. |
| 11:10 | < Namegduf> | Or something else that's less prone to erosion than concrete. |
| 11:10 | < Tarinaky> | Namegduf: Only in a vacuum. |
| 11:11 | < Namegduf> | How long do you think it would manage, then? |
| 11:11 | < Namegduf> | Assuming a lack of human disturbance. |
| 11:11 | < Tarinaky> | The planet is too violent for anything to survive millions of years without human disturbance. |
| 11:11 | < Namegduf> | Thousands? |
| 11:12 | < Anno[Laptop]> | The Pyramids have been there for thousands. |
| 11:12 | < Anno[Laptop]> | And they're rock. |
| 11:12 | < Tarinaky> | Thousands you could do. |
| 11:12 | < Tarinaky> | The pyramids only lasted as long as they did because they were buried though. |
| 11:13 | < Anno[Laptop]> | Oh, really? |
| 11:13 | < Tarinaky> | Millions of years is the timescale where mountains rise and fall though. |
| 11:14 | < Tarinaky> | Hence my skepticism. |
| 11:14 | < Anno[Laptop]> | Can has citation on the pyramids being buried? |
| 11:15 | < Tarinaky> | Not to hand. I read it in an article that was either accompanying or reviewing a tv series though. |
| 11:16 | <@McMartin> | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tutankhamun#Discovery_of_tomb |
| 11:16 | <@McMartin> | King Tut's tomb only survived to the 20th Century because it had been buried during the time when the 20th Dynasty was systematically destroying the old regime's tombs. |
| 11:18 | < Anno[Laptop]> | Are you telling me that the pyramids were completely submerged in sand for most of their existence? |
| 11:19 | < Tarinaky> | Partially anyway. |
| 11:19 | < Tarinaky> | IDK. Ask an egyptologist. |
| 11:19 | < Tarinaky> | Thousands still don't equal millions, which was the figure you had. |
| 11:22 | < Anno[Laptop]> | I'm saying that savages from the bronze age were capable of making things that lasted for thousands of years, and will likely last a few thousand more. Therefore, advanced technology should be able to produce something that can last for millions, eventually. |
| 11:23 | | * Tarinaky shrugs. |
| 11:23 | < Anno[Laptop]> | The problem being that the last time humanity had MEGACONSTRUCTION aspirations was at the beginning of the last century. Which is sad. |
| 11:23 | < Tarinaky> | That's not exactly true. |
| 11:24 | < Tarinaky> | Dubai has been going MEGACONSTRUCTION crazy. |
| 11:24 | < Anno[Laptop]> | When was the last time someone seriously wanted to do something like damming off the Mediterranean? |
| 11:24 | < Anno[Laptop]> | Dubai is weaksauce. |
| 11:24 | < Tarinaky> | I think it was Dubai anyway. |
| 11:25 | < Tarinaky> | I read about it in National Geographic while I was waiting for an appointment. |
| 11:25 | < Tarinaky> | Meh. |
| 11:25 | < Tarinaky> | I need to get back to trying to figure out what puzzles to do for 'level 2'. |
| 12:16 | | gnolam [lenin@Nightstar-38637aa0.priv.bahnhof.se] has joined #code |
| 12:18 | < Tarinaky> | Definition: Yourself is asphyxiating if it is in a depressurised room and not wearing a pressure suit. << This doesn't, appear, to be working. I set the start location as a depressurised room and the every turn while aspyxiated rule doesn't trigger. |
| 12:30 | < Tarinaky> | >.< |
| 12:31 | < Tarinaky> | Ahah! |
| 13:04 | | You're now known as TheWatcher[afk] |
| 13:20 | | Ortiha [orthianz@Nightstar-8a3d8496.xnet.co.nz] has joined #code |
| 13:23 | | Orthia [orthianz@Nightstar-02db8a08.xnet.co.nz] has quit [Ping timeout: 121 seconds] |
| 13:47 | < Anno[Laptop]> | Gnar. I'm trying to play an rmvb file. There is audio, but not video, and searching for codecs turns up nothing. |
| 13:48 | < Anno[Laptop]> | Looking at the tubes, there's w32codecs that I allegedly need, but the latest information about that seems to be from 2006, and it doesn't seem to be in the lenny repositories. |
| 13:59 | < Anno[Laptop]> | There we go. |
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| 15:29 | | You're now known as TheWatcher |
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| 20:12 | | Derakon[AFK] is now known as Derakon |
| 20:38 | < jerith> | W00t! Hamlet can now join channels. There's almost enough in it to start being useful. |
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| 20:47 | < Alek> | caps@ |
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| 23:07 | | Vornicus-Latens is now known as Vornicus |
| 23:12 | | * Vornicus pokes vaguely at Kaura. |
| 23:37 | < kaura> | Vorn: Sorry, got home at 7:30 AM, slept 'til 3. |
| 23:37 | < kaura> | (then I had to pick up something for my baby sis, but yeah.) |
| 23:38 | < kaura> | Anyhow. |
| 23:49 | | You're now known as TheWatcher[T-2] |
| 23:49 | < Vornicus> | Anyhow. |
| 23:50 | < kaura> | Next step was to make the code work for the user, right? |
| 23:51 | | You're now known as TheWatcher[zZzZ] |
| 23:52 | < Vornicus> | Yep. |
| 23:52 | < Vornicus> | But that's a big step so I'm going to break it down a bit. |
| 23:58 | < Vornicus> | First up, we need to create "wrapper" functions; we need all the operations to reveal very similar interfaces so we can talk about all of them the same way. Fortunately, all our operations are very simple: they only take one thing each. |
| 23:59 | < Vornicus> | Well, one "parameter" each, in addition to the deck. |
| 23:59 | < Vornicus> | At most, even. |
| --- Log closed Sun Sep 26 00:00:11 2010 |