| --- Log opened Sun Sep 19 00:00:44 2010 |
| 00:01 | < celticminstrel> | Ooh, Geneforge! ^_^ |
| 00:01 | <@Vornicus> | Geneforge! |
| 00:01 | < Anno[Laptop]> | Geneforge would be a lot more fun if the engine wasn't so terrible. |
| 00:02 | < celticminstrel> | What's terrible about it? |
| 00:03 | < Anno[Laptop]> | It's conspicuous low-budget. The Nethergate engine just looks old; the Geneforge engine looks like it was supposed to look nice, but someone botched the job. |
| 00:03 | | * Anno[Laptop] hates the Averforge engine with limitless hatred. |
| 00:04 | < Anno[Laptop]> | +ly |
| 00:05 | < celticminstrel> | I don't see where the +ly would go. |
| 00:05 | < Namegduf> | "conspicuous"-ly |
| 00:05 | < celticminstrel> | Oh, was looking at the wrong line. <_< |
| 00:05 | < Namegduf> | Me too. |
| 00:06 | | * Vornicus finishes making Click The Fruit! |
| 00:07 | <@Vornicus> | That was very easy. |
| 00:09 | < ToxicFrog> | Anno[Laptop]: Geneforge looks like ass, but I don't think that detracts from its fun |
| 00:09 | < ToxicFrog> | The UI, however, does. |
| 00:12 | < Anno[Laptop]> | That too. I hate the lack of proper squares/rhombii. |
| 00:12 | < Anno[Laptop]> | Makes fine tactics that much harder. |
| 00:12 | < ToxicFrog> | Er? I've never had a problem with that, unit placement is quite straightforward. |
| 00:12 | < ToxicFrog> | It's just such a pain in the ass managing inventory and giving orders to all of your creations and whatnot. |
| 00:13 | < Anno[Laptop]> | It always annoyed me, because I'd be off by a pixel and lose an action point more or the enemies would gang up on me when I wanted to stay away or shit like that. |
| 00:13 | < ToxicFrog> | I may play GF2 as an Agent rather than a Shaper simply so that I have fewer to manage. |
| 00:13 | < Anno[Laptop]> | I also hate the XP awarding system in relation to combat. By midgame, you're earning no XP for things which are still deadly threats. |
| 00:13 | < Anno[Laptop]> | I played as a Guardian. |
| 00:16 | | * Anno[Laptop] laments that the latest installments in the Avernum series use the godawful new engine. |
| 00:16 | < Anno[Laptop]> | I fear I may never get over that and play them. :( |
| 00:19 | < ToxicFrog> | I played GF1 as a Shaper and didn't have any problems. |
| 00:21 | < Anno[Laptop]> | I had occassional problems in GF1 and GF2 playing a Guardian. Completed both, though. |
| 00:32 | | Anno[Laptop] [annodomini@Nightstar-c3c7df6b.adsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [[NS] Quit: leaving] |
| 00:35 | < ToxicFrog> | Guardian, frankly, struck me as kind of boring |
| 00:49 | <@Vornicus> | I still need to finish the first three Geneforges. |
| 01:00 | < ToxicFrog> | GF1 was tasty, I'm only a few minutes into GF2 |
| 01:00 | <@Vornicus> | Shit. |
| 01:00 | <@Vornicus> | shit fuck fuck shit fuck. |
| 01:01 | <@Vornicus> | McM, this is entirely your fault. |
| 01:01 | <@Vornicus> | Vornlink is back. With a vengeance. |
| 01:02 | < ToxicFrog> | ? |
| 01:02 | <@Vornicus> | Vornlink is my Uplink remake. |
| 01:03 | <@Vornicus> | Among other things it includes a scripting interface. |
| 01:15 | < ToxicFrog> | Yes. I'm wondering why it's back. |
| 01:15 | <@Vornicus> | Because I have A Tool. |
| 01:15 | < ToxicFrog> | Oh? |
| 01:15 | <@Vornicus> | Game Maker 8. |
| 01:17 | <@Vornicus> | From what I've seen it's got it right. |
| 01:28 | < ToxicFrog> | As in, you're going to implement VL in GM8? Or as in, you're going to loot the GM8 interface and/or scripting language for use in VL? |
| 01:29 | <@Vornicus> | The former. |
| 01:29 | <@Vornicus> | I'm going to build a lego-based scripting interface on top of a lego-based scripting interface. :P |
| 01:31 | < ToxicFrog> | And this reminds me, I need to finish Uplink. |
| 01:41 | <@Vornicus> | Actually I think I saw a couple weeks ago news of another hacking game out there but I don't remember anything about it. |
| 01:42 | <@Vornicus> | Oh. Found it! it's actually in the Steam news list... |
| 01:43 | <@Vornicus> | http://store.steampowered.com/app/70110/ |
| 01:43 | <@Vornicus> | No demo though. |
| 01:44 | <@Vornicus> | More's the pity; several other games lately have killed my need to remake old ones because they did it better, and I now wonder if this one might pull that off too. |
| 01:45 | <@Vornicus> | (Realm's Ransom, my KB remake, got killed by, ah. KB. And SotS killed VornMoO) |
| 01:54 | <@Vornicus> | ah, there is a demo. |
| 01:54 | <@Vornicus> | http://www.exosyphen.com/page_hacker-evolution.html |
| 02:12 | < McMartin> | The platformer tutorial is a fair amount of fun, too. I want to mess with it to see if I can reverse engineer The Mega Man Jump Physics. |
| 02:13 | < McMartin> | (It also includes 'move to collision', an action that's actually pretty tricky to get right when you roll your own) |
| 02:14 | < McMartin> | You've also reminded me that I need to put my Imperial Solitaire dev diary up on LJ. |
| 02:14 | < McMartin> | Maybe at some point I can get a real blog. =P |
| 02:19 | < McMartin> | Also, if this is my fault, I push the blame off on Daniel Remar and Derek Yu, since they're the ones that convinced me to give that tool even a first look. =P |
| 02:29 | < ToxicFrog> | Vornicus: I am given to understand that Brian Spencer's Hacker Evolution: Untold By Brian Spencer (A Brian Spencer Production) is very different from Uplink. |
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| 02:29 | < ToxicFrog> | Same basic "hollywood hacking" feel, but it's a linear series of totally self-contained missions rather than an open-world thing. |
| 02:30 | | Orthia [orthianz@Nightstar-d9559da6.xnet.co.nz] has joined #code |
| 02:35 | <@Vornicus> | Yeah, I'm getting that impression. |
| 02:42 | | * Vornicus must grant that Messrs. Remar and Yu do deserve a fair share of the blame. And the credit. Also, Nikolai Ivanovich Lobachevsky. |
| 02:55 | < McMartin> | Only do remember to call it please "research". |
| 02:55 | < McMartin> | Also, speaking of M. Remar, I still have two posters left. |
| 02:55 | < McMartin> | 9 is easy, just tedious and requiring the right prep; 8 I still haven't solved. |
| 02:56 | <@Vornicus> | 8... ah, that one. |
| 02:57 | <@Vornicus> | 9 is painful. Literally. |
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| 03:00 | < ToxicFrog> | 8 and 9? |
| 03:01 | <@Vornicus> | In Iji, each level has a poster hidden somewhere. |
| 03:08 | < McMartin> | Getting to them generally requires sequence breaking or exploiting secondary or tertiary properties of weapons or enemy placements. |
| 03:08 | < McMartin> | The one on level 4 is *epic*. |
| 03:08 | < McMartin> | And your Mission Control wtfs at you after you actually do it. |
| 03:10 | <@Vornicus> | the one on #9, you have to have a lot of health, and the top level Tasen weapon: you blast yourself across a huge room, then back across, several times, going up a floor each time. |
| 03:12 | <@Vornicus> | #4, you drag a vehicle all the way down to the bottom, use the slight jump boost you get from it to get to a higher level, steal /another/ vehicle, rocket a far wall, and then jump off the vehicle in midair to catch the smoking hole and climb in. |
| 03:12 | < McMartin> | I haven't counted, but I think it may only really be feasible if you max the Health stat, which in this case also means you end up taking only a third of the normal damage for shooting yourself in the face with that weapon. |
| 03:12 | < McMartin> | (#9) |
| 03:12 | <@Vornicus> | Not actually necessary to max your health there. |
| 03:13 | <@Vornicus> | (maxing your health reduces by one the amount of damage you take each time you would take more than one point of damage. The MFPB Devastator does three damage to everything in its blast radius after it hits the wall.) |
| 03:13 | <@Vornicus> | I think it's health 8 that you need. |
| 03:14 | < McMartin> | I believe it reduces it not by one, but to one, unless that changed between 1.3 and 1.6 |
| 03:14 | <@Vornicus> | Nope, by one. |
| 03:14 | | * McMartin decided to look at the some of the other stuff posted at yoyogames. |
| 03:14 | < McMartin> | This is not entirely unlike randomwalking fanfiction.net. We'll see how this goes. -_- |
| 03:15 | <@Vornicus> | Always has been; it's just that most things that hit you for more than one damage do two -- shocksplinters and rockets do two, as do most of Tor's attacks. |
| 03:15 | < McMartin> | Ah |
| 03:16 | < McMartin> | I know the requirements for the Null Driver have been sharpened since then. |
| 03:16 | < McMartin> | I think you have to beat it without taking damage, and do a Crack Everything run. |
| 03:16 | <@Vornicus> | Plasma cannons and the Devastator do 3 usually, and do 2 when you have max health. |
| 03:17 | <@Vornicus> | The Null Driver: get all the other extras. |
| 03:17 | < McMartin> | Yeah, and as the number of other extras increases... |
| 03:17 | <@Vornicus> | Obviously not in one run. |
| 03:18 | < McMartin> | As of 1.6, that appears to be: Beat all difficulty levels, get "Nanomaster" rank, get "Immortal" rank, all ribbons, all posters, all secret techniques |
| 03:18 | <@Vornicus> | Take less than 100 damage; crack 100 more things than you fail to crack. |
| 03:18 | < McMartin> | Er |
| 03:18 | <@Vornicus> | And kill Yukabacera. |
| 03:18 | < McMartin> | Isn't "Immortal" take -zero- damage? |
| 03:18 | <@Vornicus> | No. |
| 03:18 | < McMartin> | Oh, right. You need the Scrambler, but not the Banana Bomb. |
| 03:18 | <@Vornicus> | It's 0-99 |
| 03:19 | <@Vornicus> | Note: the banana cannon is right next to poster 9. |
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| 03:21 | <@Vornicus> | Oh, and then once you've done that go to Sector Zero and get through it. |
| 03:23 | < McMartin> | Yup. |
| 03:23 | < McMartin> | That's the plan. |
| 03:24 | < McMartin> | If you mean Sector Z |
| 03:24 | < McMartin> | I've found the teleporter, of course, but I haven't ben able to make it through. |
| 03:24 | <@Vornicus> | Yeah. |
| 03:24 | <@Vornicus> | Fortunately you get a shotgun. |
| 03:24 | < McMartin> | I need to replay level 8, actually. |
| 03:24 | < McMartin> | Not just for the poster but for the Super Charge. |
| 03:25 | < McMartin> | That's the second most annoying one, and in that one Iji herself bitches about it. |
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| 03:26 | <@Vornicus> | Sector 8's poster: remember, you're not the only one that can throw you. |
| 03:27 | <@Vornicus> | Sector 8's Supercharge is fun, and I've gotten it in a 0-kills run. |
| 03:29 | | Orthia [orthianz@Nightstar-d9559da6.xnet.co.nz] has joined #code |
| 03:29 | <@Vornicus> | (to get the supercharge in sector 8, you must clear a path and then kick a turret halfway across the level. Turrets get destroyed when they are kicked into opponents. The path? Two annihilators, a small contingent of Tasen, and some other goodies like that. |
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| 03:30 | <@Vornicus> | (annihilators are hard to kill.) |
| 03:31 | <@Vornicus> | (they are especially hard to kill when you don't want to /kill/ them.) |
| 03:33 | < Derakon> | ...you aren't trying to get the turretball supercharge on a pacifist run, are you? |
| 03:33 | < Derakon> | Oh, geeze, you did. |
| 03:33 | < Derakon> | WTF dude. |
| 03:33 | <@Vornicus> | No, that's 7. |
| 03:33 | <@Vornicus> | I've never gotten that one. |
| 03:33 | <@Vornicus> | Oh, wait. Proxima is a ball that turrets, that's 7. 8 is kick-the-can, and yeah, I /have/ done it. |
| 03:35 | < Derakon> | Silly crazy man. |
| 03:36 | <@Vornicus> | I've done about 3/4 of the Proxima supercharge, too, on this pacifist run. |
| 03:37 | | Orthia [orthianz@Nightstar-d9559da6.xnet.co.nz] has joined #code |
| 03:38 | <@Vornicus> | (if I had had more attack when I got there it would have died spectacularly.) |
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| 03:42 | <@Vornicus> | 10 you just plain can't do on a pacifist run, unless somehow meeting Asha three times makes him commit suicide. :) |
| 03:43 | < McMartin> | Derakon: Don't you need maxed weapon stats to do a pacifist run? |
| 03:43 | < McMartin> | 8 can't be done on Pacifist because kick the can requires, among other things, taking out two annihilators. |
| 03:43 | < McMartin> | I guess you could do it with the resonance reflector? |
| 03:43 | <@Vornicus> | I /did/ do it with the reflector. |
| 03:43 | < Derakon> | Reflector kills don't count against you. |
| 03:44 | < Derakon> | I guess they're assisted suicide or something. |
| 03:44 | | * Vornicus is a force of fucking nature. |
| 03:44 | < McMartin> | It also occurs to me that you don't need the reflector, either, just close quarters. |
| 03:44 | < Derakon> | What, kill them with shocksplinter splash? |
| 03:44 | <@Vornicus> | Their own shocksplinter splash, even. |
| 03:44 | < McMartin> | Because Annihilators are a little blase about blowing themselves the fuck up with three shocksplinters at point blank into a wall where you aren't, yeah. |
| 03:44 | < McMartin> | This is in every changelog as "UNCHANGED: NOT A BUG: ANNIHILATORS, MAN." |
| 03:45 | < Derakon> | Hee. |
| 03:45 | | * Vornicus has killed one like that, too: the one on the top floor of the first section of X. |
| 03:45 | < McMartin> | Heh |
| 03:46 | < McMartin> | I do think it's impressive how terrified everyone is of Iji on an agressive run. |
| 03:46 | < McMartin> | Because she really is the second most absurdly powerful cyborg in history. |
| 03:46 | < McMartin> | And she also breaks some rules, though so does my vote for First. |
| 03:46 | < Derakon> | The first being wossname the invincible? |
| 03:46 | < McMartin> | Yeah. |
| 03:46 | < McMartin> | Iosa and Iji both break A Rule. |
| 03:47 | < McMartin> | Iji can prefabricate projectiles, and Iosa is Made Of Doors. |
| 03:47 | < McMartin> | Which isn't supposed to be possible for carbon-based life forms. |
| 03:47 | < McMartin> | (I didn't notice until my replay that she actually has the shield-door aura on her.) |
| 03:47 | < Derakon> | Pfft |
| 03:48 | < McMartin> | Then there's Retribution. |
| 03:48 | < McMartin> | I'm not sure what to make of that |
| 03:49 | | * ToxicFrog catches up on Rock Paper Shotgun, eyebrows at the "rewritten endings" article. |
| 03:49 | < ToxicFrog> | ...I have to admit, that would have been a pretty awesome way to end SS2. |
| 03:50 | < McMartin> | Hm? |
| 03:50 | < ToxicFrog> | They did an article where they proposed alternate endings to games where they felt either the ending, or the last few levels, or both were lacklustre after an otherwise excellent game. |
| 03:51 | < ToxicFrog> | Morrowind, Half-Life, Borderlands, The Longest Journey and System Shock 2. |
| 03:52 | < McMartin> | That sounds spoilertastic to me, since I still need to play basically all of those and haven't beaten Borderlands yet |
| 03:53 | < McMartin> | What was their proposed SS2 ending? |
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| 04:02 | < ToxicFrog> | I can't really say without spoiling the shit out of SS2. |
| 04:03 | < ToxicFrog> | Beyond it takes the SS1 final bossfight (SHODAN takes over the game to directly fuck with the player) and turns that concept up to 11. |
| 04:03 | < McMartin> | I'm vaguely aware of SS2's end plot. |
| 04:03 | < McMartin> | Heh |
| 04:03 | | * McMartin has been spoiled on Half-Life and SS2. |
| 04:04 | < ToxicFrog> | (loosely speaking: you defeat SHODAN, she comes back, says "what part of 'god' don't you understand?" and the game CTDs. And then SHODAN takes over your computer. Cue real final bossfight. When you finally manage to trigger the killswitch and hit "reset", the game restarts and you find yourself outside the UNN recruitment office again.) |
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| 04:08 | < McMartin> | (KOJIMAAAAAAAAA) |
| 04:09 | | * McMartin has Opinions about dicking with the meta verbs~ |
| 04:13 | <@Vornicus> | TF: linkus? |
| 04:13 | | Thaqui [Thaqui@27B34E.D54D49.F53FA1.6A113C] has joined #code |
| 04:16 | < ToxicFrog> | http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2010/09/13/rps-think-tank-lets-end-this/#more-38 750 - spoilers for the above named games, of course. |
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| 05:05 | < Orthia> | What was their proposed SS2 ending? |
| 05:05 | < Orthia> | I pinged out. ;_; |
| 05:05 | < Derakon> | http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2010/09/13/rps-think-tank-lets-end-this/#more-38 750 |
| 05:06 | < Orthia> | AAha. |
| 05:06 | < Orthia> | Mind, I'm actually still playing 3 of those |
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| 05:50 | < McMartin> | http://innoquous3.orgfree.com/ is clever |
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| 06:15 | < ToxicFrog> | Gnar. Can't play Iji on the laptop because there's no way to rebind the movement controls. |
| 06:15 | < ToxicFrog> | It works fine in POL, at least. |
| 06:23 | | Orthia [orthianz@Nightstar-9656f873.xnet.co.nz] has joined #code |
| 06:57 | < Derakon> | I could swear you can rebind the controls... |
| 07:00 | < ToxicFrog> | You can rebind controls other than movement. |
| 07:00 | < Derakon> | Ahh. |
| 07:00 | < ToxicFrog> | Movement is always on the numberpad, ie, on the wrong damn side of the keyboard. |
| 07:00 | < Derakon> | And your laptop doesn't have a good arrow key layout. |
| 07:00 | < ToxicFrog> | s/numberpad/arrows/ |
| 07:00 | < ToxicFrog> | That too. |
| 07:01 | < Derakon> | Tell the creator about it! |
| 07:01 | | ToxicFrog [ToxicFrog@ServerAdministrator.Nightstar.Net] has left #code ["Leaving"] |
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| 07:02 | < ToxicFrog> | I was planning to just wait until I got home and then remap my joypad to look like a keyboard, but you're right, I should do that too. |
| 07:05 | < Derakon> | (Incidentally, the published speedrun for Iji on SDA was created...by the creator) |
| 07:06 | < Derakon> | Anyway, just about bedtime. |
| 07:08 | | Derakon is now known as Derakon[AFK] |
| 07:08 | <@Vornicus> | (yeah, that was a cool thing to find.) |
| 07:09 | < McMartin> | SDA? |
| 07:11 | <@Vornicus> | Speed Demos Archive |
| 07:12 | < McMartin> | Aha. |
| 07:12 | < McMartin> | http://mcmartin.livejournal.com/125009.html |
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| 07:57 | < kwsn> | ohhey, programmer channel? :D |
| 08:00 | < jerith> | Something like that. |
| 08:00 | | * kwsn should fit in, seeing he's a software engineer and all that :P |
| 08:01 | <@Vornicus> | oh hi |
| 08:01 | | * jerith moves Vorn and McMartin around a bit to make space for kwsn. |
| 08:01 | < kwsn> | :P |
| 08:05 | | Anno[Laptop] [annodomini@Nightstar-c3c7df6b.adsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #code |
| 08:07 | | * kwsn is sad though |
| 08:07 | < kwsn> | my prof for one of my classes... he |
| 08:07 | < kwsn> | belongs to the church of emacs T___________T |
| 08:08 | < Anno[Laptop]> | Convert him to nano. |
| 08:08 | < kwsn> | nah |
| 08:08 | < kwsn> | he won't |
| 08:08 | < Kaura> | Man, far as I can tell - and I'm just barely starting to start out - every language's got its hardcore fanboys. |
| 08:08 | < kwsn> | he actually manages to use most of the features |
| 08:08 | | * kwsn prefers using Vim w/ screen running |
| 08:10 | < jerith> | kwsn: Emacs is a really awesome editor, provided your brain's the right shape. |
| 08:10 | < jerith> | (Mine is.) |
| 08:10 | < kwsn> | well, both vim and emacs are like that |
| 08:11 | < jerith> | vim is also a really awesome editor, but it fits my brain less well. |
| 08:11 | < jerith> | TextMate's probably the third to fit in that camp, but it's for-pay and restricted-platform and thus somewhat disqualified. |
| 08:12 | < kwsn> | I use nano when i need to CP large amounts of text into a file, but otherwise vim is my main one |
| 08:14 | < jerith> | I dislike nano intensely, because its defaults alter my text. |
| 08:15 | < kwsn> | we had to write assembly code on our shared linux system, i was one of the few that did it directly in PuTTY |
| 08:17 | < kwsn> | and..... someone is being a bitch on IO it seems |
| 08:17 | < kwsn> | (which is the name of our shared linux box on campus) |
| 08:17 | < jerith> | Shared machines are always like that. |
| 08:18 | < kwsn> | usually it's not that bad |
| 08:18 | < kwsn> | *this |
| 08:18 | < kwsn> | considering it's 2 in the morning |
| 08:18 | < jerith> | That's prime coding time! |
| 08:19 | < Kaura> | Aand I've officially written my first Hello World ever. *ding* |
| 08:20 | < jerith> | \o/ |
| 08:21 | < kwsn> | congrats |
| 08:21 | < kwsn> | your'e officially a (bigger) nerd now |
| 08:22 | < jerith> | Wait. Writing "hello world" adds kilos? |
| 08:22 | < jerith> | Or does it add inches? |
| 08:22 | < jerith> | (And yes. I did just mix metric and imperial.) |
| 08:22 | < Kaura> | Length and girth, clearly~ |
| 08:42 | < Orthia> | But only for your stomach~ |
| 08:42 | < Orthia> | Kaura: What language? |
| 08:42 | < Anno[Laptop]> | (Brainfuck.) |
| 08:45 | < Kaura> | Reiv: Python |
| 08:46 | < Kaura> | Because it was uniformly recommended to me as the language least likely to send me screaming for the hills. |
| 08:46 | < jerith> | Teaching Python is the reason this channel was originally set up. :-) |
| 08:46 | < Kaura> | Ah-hah. |
| 08:46 | < jerith> | And Python is my favourite language for a lot of reasons that actually make it good for other people too. |
| 08:48 | < Kaura> | It does seem to have a very tolerant learning curve~ |
| 08:48 | <@Vornicus> | It was my first language. |
| 08:49 | < Namegduf> | Python is a fine language. |
| 08:49 | < jerith> | It was my fourth or fifth language. And so far it's the one I dislike the least. |
| 08:49 | < Namegduf> | I want to avoid its community, though. |
| 08:49 | < jerith> | Namegduf: Why? |
| 08:50 | < Namegduf> | http://stackoverflow.com/questions/89178/in-python-what-is-the-fastest-algorithm -for-removing-duplicates-from-a-list-so-t |
| 08:50 | < Namegduf> | Read the responses to this. |
| 08:50 | < Namegduf> | "y = [ _x for _x in x if not _x in locals()['_[1]'] ]" |
| 08:50 | < Namegduf> | One suggestion. |
| 08:51 | < Namegduf> | The short version is "The majority of them offering snippets of code in response to a question about speed appear not to understand, well, anything." |
| 08:51 | < Namegduf> | Speed, elegance, or (unless I'm sadly mistaken) Python-like code. |
| 08:52 | | * kwsn knows C++, Java, Python, learning Ruby, and by extension of C++: C and C# |
| 08:53 | <@Vornicus> | set(my_list) |
| 08:53 | < Namegduf> | Wrong, but you couldn't tell why it was wrong from just the URL. |
| 08:53 | <@Vornicus> | or, if you really need a list, list(set(my_list)) |
| 08:53 | < Namegduf> | You'd have to read it. |
| 08:53 | < Namegduf> | The question ends with "while preserving order" |
| 08:54 | < Anno[Laptop]> | kwsn: No assembly? |
| 08:54 | < kwsn> | oh yeah, that too, but not really much of it |
| 08:54 | < kwsn> | it was only half a semester of it |
| 08:54 | < Namegduf> | However, that did not stop someone from suggesting that. |
| 08:55 | < Namegduf> | And having visited the page, my assumption is that they did, in fact, see the full question. |
| 08:55 | | * Anno[Laptop] knows C and its close derivatives, Java, VHDL, Verilog, a few assemblers, and learning Perl now. |
| 08:56 | < Namegduf> | It's the sheer number of O(n^2) solutions, solutions which don't meet the requirements, and solutions which manage to be godugly while doing both the previous. |
| 08:56 | <@Vornicus> | Namegduf: sorted(list(set(my_list)), key = my_list.index) |
| 08:57 | < jerith> | Namegduf: That's not limited to the Python community, though. |
| 08:57 | < Namegduf> | jerith: No, but they're the only high-level language community I've had to deal with precisely. |
| 08:57 | < Namegduf> | *signficantly. |
| 08:57 | < Namegduf> | Aside JavaScript, whose resources are horrible. |
| 08:58 | < Namegduf> | It's worth using a helper library just to have things which are well documented. |
| 08:59 | < jerith> | In my experience, the Python community (in general) values Doing The Right Thing more than most other communities I've been invovled in. |
| 09:03 | <@Vornicus> | Actually, you don't need that list() call there. |
| 09:04 | <@Vornicus> | But that's still n^2, because you have to key each thing, dammit. |
| 09:04 | < jerith> | A list-and-set implementation is O(n), which is the best you can do. |
| 09:07 | <@Vornicus> | s = set(my_list); k = 0; while k < len(my_list): if my_list[k] in s: s.remove(my_list[k]); k += 1;; else: my_list.pop(k);;; return my_list |
| 09:08 | < jerith> | seen = set(); [(i, seen.add(i))[0] for i in my_list if i not in seen] |
| 09:09 | <@Vornicus> | ...jerith wins. |
| 09:09 | < jerith> | An abuse of the listcomp, but still. |
| 09:10 | < jerith> | I've written horrible hacks like that before, but only for golfing. |
| 09:11 | <@Vornicus> | I was going to rewrite mine so it built a new list -- less memmoves that way. |
| 09:13 | <@Vornicus> | But I was still for some reason gonna do two passes. |
| 09:14 | | gnolam [lenin@Nightstar-38637aa0.priv.bahnhof.se] has joined #code |
| 09:14 | < jerith> | I wrote mine as a generator function and then looked at it for about 40 seconds before the tuple/index trick occured to me. |
| 09:14 | | gnolam [lenin@Nightstar-38637aa0.priv.bahnhof.se] has quit [[NS] Quit: ] |
| 09:15 | | gnolam [lenin@Nightstar-38637aa0.priv.bahnhof.se] has joined #code |
| 09:17 | <@Vornicus> | ah, that's the advantage of two passes: the set shrinks while the new list grows, so you bound memory at the beginning. :P |
| 09:18 | < jerith> | If you destroy the first list as you build the second, memory usage is max(n, 2*unique(n)). |
| 09:20 | < Kaura> | ...'s gonna be a while b'fore I understand anything in here, huh... >_> |
| 09:20 | < jerith> | Kaura: Most of that thread is abuse of the language. |
| 09:20 | <@Vornicus> | jerith and I are Gurus. |
| 09:20 | < Anno[Laptop]> | Kaura: This is normal. Present a problem to a bunch of people whose passion is to solve problems, and they will try to solve it and argue about it. |
| 09:21 | < jerith> | I'm not a Guru, but I have more than a passing familiarity with the language and I have fixed stdlib bugs. |
| 09:22 | <@Vornicus> | "have fixed stdlib bugs" is automatic guru status. |
| 09:23 | < jerith> | Vornicus: Only once they actually get committed. ;-) |
| 09:23 | < jerith> | http://bugs.python.org/issue1491 |
| 09:24 | < jerith> | I've also helped port Genshi to Python 3, which is probably my biggest community contribution. |
| 09:24 | < jerith> | http://pythonsprints.com/2010/09/17/genshi-python-3-sprint/ -- I'm the one in yellow at the back. |
| 09:26 | <@Vornicus> | heh |
| 09:29 | <@Vornicus> | That's still more than I've done -- I put in a bisect patch but it got rejected. |
| 09:31 | | * McMartin_ hands out top hats. |
| 09:33 | | * Vornicus wonders why he is puttin' on the ritz tonight. |
| 09:33 | < McMartin_> | Primarily because a true gentleman leaves no puzzle unsolved, etc. |
| 09:34 | < McMartin_> | Specifically, Anno's line sounded like random NPC dialog in a Professor Layton game. |
| 09:35 | < Anno[Laptop]> | I make a great NPC. |
| 09:36 | | * McMartin_ haff tvelf metchsteek |
| 09:36 | < Orthia> | Life is tough. |
| 09:36 | < Orthia> | hn, no |
| 09:36 | < Orthia> | AHA |
| 09:36 | < Anno[Laptop]> | ITYM, "*sigh* times are tough." |
| 09:36 | < Orthia> | *sigh* Life is tough. |
| 09:37 | < Orthia> | Alas, yes. |
| 09:37 | < Orthia> | I fail as an NPC, for I forget my only line. :( |
| 09:37 | < kwsn> | jerith: oh god it's hideous </delayed> |
| 09:38 | | * kwsn also belatedly declines McMartin_'s top hat offer, wears his fedora |
| 09:38 | | * jerith adds eyes and teeth to his hat. +Watchful. |
| 09:38 | | * McMartin_ actually has been rocking the Ivy Cap recently. |
| 09:38 | | McMartin_ is now known as McMartin |
| 09:38 | | * Orthia dons his headscarf, waves a cutlass at you traitorous dogs. |
| 09:40 | < McMartin> | o/~ When laptops are benches God gave us for wenches / and a sail ain't a low price to pay o/~ |
| 09:41 | | * Orthia is curious about that song. |
| 09:41 | < jerith> | http://www.talklikeapirate.com/sounds/TLAPD_smith.html |
| 09:42 | < McMartin> | There we go. |
| 09:42 | | * Kaura can now spit out basic sums onto IDLE. So hideously basic, yet feeling so proud~ |
| 09:42 | < McMartin> | o/~ For I dream of the skull and the crossbones / I dream of the great day to come / When I dump the mundane for the old Spanish Main / And trade me computer for rum. ARRRR!" |
| 09:42 | | * Orthia is pretty certain that the first line is referring to, uh, pr0n? |
| 09:42 | < McMartin> | Kaura: That kind of thing happening at age 4 to 6 is what produced people like Vorn and I. |
| 09:43 | < McMartin> | Orthia: no. |
| 09:43 | < McMartin> | On non-Piratey days, it's a bench for kittens. |
| 09:43 | < McMartin> | You know, your lap. |
| 09:43 | < Orthia> | Aaaaah. |
| 09:43 | < Orthia> | As in, literal laps. |
| 09:43 | < Orthia> | Contrast with the term being known for small formfactor portable PCs. |
| 09:44 | < McMartin> | Quite. |
| 09:44 | < jerith> | Kaura: You may wish to look into ipython, which is awesome deep-fried in awesomesauce. |
| 09:45 | < kwsn> | McMartin: I'm a Jazz/Ska fan... the fedora fits :P |
| 09:46 | < McMartin> | http://www.tomsmithonline.com/freestuff/oddio/TLAPD.mp3 |
| 09:48 | < McMartin> | (Also, for jerith and Orthia, the "Aye" "Arr" "Hey" thing - the IRA is the Individual Retirement Account that most American corporate drones have as their pension) |
| 09:49 | < jerith> | So not the crowd that runs around bombing Ireland? |
| 09:49 | < McMartin> | The best part of the song is where they rhyme "mainsails" with "brain cells". |
| 09:49 | < McMartin> | jerith: Quite so. The invocation of "retirement plans" is the tell. |
| 09:51 | | * Vornicus gneegs |
| 09:52 | | * Kaura snerks at the song's end |
| 09:52 | <@Vornicus> | My first serious book - and I was reading it when I was not quite four yet - was the book that tells you how to use the commodore 64. |
| 09:53 | | * jerith only got seriously into C64 hacking at about age 7. |
| 09:53 | < McMartin> | Define "seriously" |
| 09:53 | < jerith> | Not just copying stuff out of magazines. |
| 09:53 | < McMartin> | Aha. |
| 09:53 | < McMartin> | I can' tplace it |
| 09:53 | <@Vornicus> | <3 Compute's Gazette |
| 09:54 | < McMartin> | I usually set 12-14 as my age for that for the C64, but by "seriously getting into it" there it was "hand-assembling machine code to decimal and putting it into DATA statements" |
| 09:54 | | * McMartin went on a retro kick about seven years ago, hasn't really felt the urge since. |
| 09:54 | < McMartin> | Or rather, the retro kick has been channeled into other things, mainly redemption of the older design forms. |
| 09:55 | < Kaura> | ;__; So far behiiinnndd |
| 09:55 | < McMartin> | But I do still have my C64 Programmer's Guide on my desk. |
| 09:55 | <@Vornicus> | I didn't program at all between about 10 and 20. |
| 09:55 | < McMartin> | The one with the timing diagrams for the chips wtf. |
| 09:55 | < McMartin> | Being a programmer back then was Something Different. |
| 09:55 | < Kaura> | I think the last time I touched any language that wasn't plain English or Mandarin was HTML in fifth grade. |
| 09:56 | < McMartin> | Are you going off the official tutorial here for Python, Kaura? |
| 09:56 | < Kaura> | Swaroo's guide. |
| 09:56 | < Kaura> | er, Swaroop |
| 09:56 | < Kaura> | Everything's making sense so far, though I think I better keep a few notes on the details... |
| 09:57 | < McMartin> | One of the modern skills of a working programmer is the ability to navigate gigantic documentation sets. |
| 09:57 | < McMartin> | I'd estimate I have about 1% of Python's API memorized. |
| 09:57 | < Kaura> | pfft |
| 09:57 | < McMartin> | Even that might be high. |
| 09:57 | | * Vornicus learned to program, and I mean honestly, not the ridiculous toys in mac pascal or c64 basic that pretty much did nothing back before I could think straight, from the official python tutorial. |
| 09:58 | <@Vornicus> | My very first serious project was /a whole programming language/ |
| 09:58 | < jerith> | As long as I know that stuff is in there and have a reasonable pointer to naming, I can look up the details. |
| 09:59 | < McMartin> | The first program I designed and wrote that was used by anyone outside of my family was a graphics editor. |
| 09:59 | <@Vornicus> | It was a carnival of lies and woe, and it broke in the next version of python because it added boolean literals that collided with the names I used. |
| 09:59 | < McMartin> | Heh |
| 09:59 | <@Vornicus> | But my god it worked, mostly, and people used it. |
| 10:00 | < McMartin> | (The graphics editor was used by the artists on the Target Acquired project, which was a little scrolly shooter I wrote with a team of guys in high school. Porting that project to SDL was the first thing I did *with* SDL.) |
| 10:01 | < McMartin> | Was this Schlockian? |
| 10:01 | | * jerith did his first professional development (in that he actually got paid) in his early twenties. |
| 10:01 | <@Vornicus> | This was Schlockian. |
| 10:01 | < jerith> | McMartin: It was. |
| 10:01 | < McMartin> | Oh, Christ. |
| 10:01 | < jerith> | I learned PHP for that. |
| 10:01 | < McMartin> | The first program I was paid to write was an ActiveX control. >_< >_< >_< |
| 10:02 | < Kaura> | ...you'll be scrubbing off that shame for a while yet, huh? |
| 10:02 | < McMartin> | This was back before the days of functional STL implementations, too, so about half that project was rewriting std::vector to not corrupt its own memory. |
| 10:02 | < McMartin> | Not really. I'm a pretty hardcore windows developer as it is, though I largely these days get to stick with the parts of Windows that are actually good. |
| 10:02 | < jerith> | I wrote an app to automate synchronised swimming scoring when I was in high scool. |
| 10:02 | < jerith> | *school |
| 10:02 | < jerith> | That was my first contract development, but I didn't get paid. |
| 10:03 | < McMartin> | (The primary thing I'm paid to do these days is debug device drivers) |
| 10:03 | < McMartin> | (The device driver interface in modern Windows is Actually Quite Good, and it got better at Vista - being Closed Source As All Hell meant they had to put serious effort into making sensible hooks and modularization.) |
| 10:03 | < jerith> | McMartin: How much of an overlap is that subset with the subset that Pi wrote? |
| 10:04 | < McMartin> | I'm not sure, offhand. |
| 10:04 | < McMartin> | Is Pi the VMS guy? |
| 10:04 | < jerith> | He mostly worked on audio stuff, iirc. |
| 10:04 | < McMartin> | Ah. No idea, I'm not in that code at all. |
| 10:05 | < jerith> | I'm not sure if you two ever hung out in the same places when he was still around. |
| 10:05 | < McMartin> | The Horrible Back-Compat Mess is mostly in User32.dll and Kernel32.dll, neither of which the driver kits use. |
| 10:05 | < McMartin> | Oh. |
| 10:05 | < McMartin> | Yeah, we were briefly in the same areas, but we didn't talk. |
| 10:05 | < McMartin> | Distressingly, at some point in the past three months, I've become more comfortable doing kernel-level hacking in Windows than in Linux. |
| 10:05 | < Kaura> | Whoa, it's 2. I've been tinkering around for an hour and a half now, on and off. |
| 10:06 | < jerith> | He was already fading away when I started hanging out in That Other Place. |
| 10:06 | < McMartin> | Oh yeah, there's also that. |
| 10:06 | < McMartin> | Kaura, you'll want to set alarms for this stuff~ |
| 10:06 | < Kaura> | Apparently! |
| 10:06 | < McMartin> | It's as dangerous if not more than playing something like Civilization. |
| 10:06 | < Kaura> | "Just gonna learn another hour's worth of Python toni- why is the sun up?" |
| 10:06 | < jerith> | Kaura: We can tell you're still new at this because you haven't checked what day it is yet. ;-) |
| 10:07 | < Kaura> | pfftaha |
| 10:07 | < jerith> | (It's Sunday here in UTC+2.) |
| 10:08 | < jerith> | He laughs. I've accidentally hacked through an entire weekend and unexpectedly woken up on Monday more than once. |
| 10:08 | < Kaura> | ...that's worrisome, that is. |
| 10:08 | < jerith> | That goes with the territory. |
| 10:09 | <@Vornicus> | Programmers are a very strange breed. |
| 10:09 | < jerith> | Of course, that was back when I was still young enough that I could pull all-nighters and not pay for the rest of the week. |
| 10:09 | | * Vornicus hasn't regularly fallen asleep before midnight in 20 years. |
| 10:11 | | You're now known as TheWatcher |
| 10:11 | < Kaura> | 'lo TW |
| 10:15 | <@TheWatcher> | ... (translation: good morning, Kaura) |
| 10:19 | | Orthia [orthianz@Nightstar-9656f873.xnet.co.nz] has quit [Connection reset by peer] |
| 10:21 | < kwsn> | Vornicus: i managed to go to bed before 11 pm 11 nights straight once o_O |
| 10:22 | | * Vornicus is a nocturnal kind of guy, which is why he's up at 5:22 AM. |
| 10:24 | < kwsn> | Vornicus: for those 11 days i had to work 6am-noon at the state fair @_@ |
| 10:27 | | Orthia [orthianz@Nightstar-9656f873.xnet.co.nz] has joined #code |
| 10:29 | | Orthia [orthianz@Nightstar-9656f873.xnet.co.nz] has quit [Client closed the connection] |
| 10:35 | | aoanla [AndChat@Nightstar-fed77b92.range81-156.btcentralplus.com] has joined #code |
| 10:35 | | Orthia [orthianz@Nightstar-9656f873.xnet.co.nz] has joined #code |
| 10:54 | | * McMartin stops juggling eggs in variable gravity, goes to sleep. |
| 10:55 | | * McMartin also re-plugs http://innoquous3.orgfree.com/ |
| 11:15 | | * kwsn goes to do that "sleep" thing, night all |
| 11:16 | | kwsn is now known as kw-sleep-n |
| 11:17 | | * TheWatcher eyes that |
| 11:17 | <@TheWatcher> | huh, for some reason, that reminds me of kula world |
| 11:26 | < McMartin> | Haven't heard of it |
| 11:26 | < McMartin> | But I've been messing with it on and off all day |
| 11:27 | < McMartin> | The second-to-last level is inconceivably aggravating |
| 11:28 | < McMartin> | But I've managed to do something like 75% of everything the game can do. |
| 11:30 | < McMartin> | A quick check of wiki says not really; the main gimmick in this one is gravity rotation. |
| 11:30 | | Kaura [kaura@Nightstar-fd82400d.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has quit [[NS] Quit: zzz] |
| 11:41 | | kw-sleep-n [kwsn@Nightstar-a0abd809.dyn.centurytel.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 121 seconds] |
| 12:10 | | * Orthia gets to level 12 of Visibility before losing interest and moving on. Amusing gimmick, however. |
| 12:10 | < Orthia> | ( http://www.kongregate.com/games/PsyFlash/visible-iii ) |
| 12:20 | | Thaqui [Thaqui@27B34E.D54D49.F53FA1.6A113C] has quit [Connection closed] |
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| 14:40 | < jerith> | Level 9 broke me. I miss the timing on the tricky bit about 9 times out of 10. |
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| 16:46 | | kw-sleep-n is now known as kwsn |
| 17:16 | < simon_> | what game is that? |
| 17:17 | < Abu[Laptop]> | Visible III. |
| 17:19 | < simon_> | my resolution isn't big enough to view the game. pity. |
| 17:44 | | Abu[Laptop] is now known as DuskRainbow |
| 18:00 | | kwsn is now known as kwsn\packers |
| 19:19 | | aoanla [AndChat@Nightstar-fed77b92.range81-156.btcentralplus.com] has quit [[NS] Quit: ] |
| 19:39 | | Derakon[AFK] is now known as Derakon |
| 19:46 | < DuskRainbow> | In Perl, if I want a regexp to detect a space, I just put a space in there, right? |
| 19:50 | < Derakon> | Yes. |
| 20:40 | | * TheWatcher eyes the channel |
| 20:41 | <@TheWatcher> | you can also use \s to match any whitespace (which may or may not be better) |
| 20:42 | < DuskRainbow> | /^!die\s/i |
| 20:42 | < DuskRainbow> | /^!die\s/i |
| 20:42 | < DuskRainbow> | This do? |
| 20:46 | <@TheWatcher> | That will require that !die is followed by exactly one whitespace character, always. !die with no whitespace after it will not match, and !die followed by two spaces will not - if you want 0 or more spaces, use \s*, if you want one or more, use \s+ |
| 20:48 | < DuskRainbow> | Right. Thank you. |
| 20:53 | <@Vornicus> | verdict on hacker evolution: not fun. |
| 20:54 | < celticminstrel> | Actually, that pattern would match !die followed by two spaces. |
| 20:55 | <@TheWatcher> | Well, it'd match it followed by a space and anything |
| 20:55 | <@TheWatcher> | yes |
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| 21:11 | | Vornicus is now known as Finerty |
| 21:23 | | DuskRainbow is now known as AnnoDomini |
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| 23:01 | < gnolam> | ... aaand they've gone and fucked up Inkscape. Great. |
| 23:09 | | celticminstrel [celticminst@Nightstar-f8b608eb.cable.rogers.com] has joined #code |
| --- Log closed Mon Sep 20 00:00:45 2010 |