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code logs -> 2010 -> Sat, 18 Sep 2010< code.20100917.log - code.20100919.log >
--- Log opened Sat Sep 18 00:00:43 2010
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13:45
< Anno[Laptop]>
How do I kill my screen from outside it?
13:50
< Anno[Laptop]>
Nevermind, found the solution.
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21:29
< jerith>
Oh, how I love PLY's documentation.
21:29
< jerith>
"[...] However, it may not tell you how the parser arrived at such a state. To try and figure it out, you'll probably have to look at your grammar and the contents of the parser.out debugging file with an appropriately high level of caffeination."
21:32
<@Vornicus>
heh
21:33
< jerith>
"Tracking down shift/reduce and reduce/reduce conflicts is one of the finer pleasures of using an LR parsing algorithm."
21:34
< celticminstrel>
So, I encountered someone who considers Python to not be a programming language.
21:34 * jerith bought that book Chalain blogged about yesterday (my purchase, not his blog post) and built a programming language today.
21:34
< jerith>
Not a very good language, but still.
21:35
< jerith>
celticminstrel: Do they consider a Python to be a kind of snake?
21:35
< celticminstrel>
They consider it to be a scripting language, but not a programming language.
21:35
< jerith>
Or do they object to it not compiling all the way down to native machine code?
21:35
< celticminstrel>
Basically, yeah.
21:35
< Namegduf>
"It's not a prog-"-yeah.
21:36
< Namegduf>
It's something I've noticed amongst Java fans.
21:36
< jerith>
That distinction has been broken for years.
21:36
< celticminstrel>
What distinction?
21:36
< celticminstrel>
Interpreted vs compiled?
21:36
< Namegduf>
Programming vs scripting on the basis of being interpreted.
21:36
< jerith>
Between "scripting" and "programming" languaged.
21:37
< celticminstrel>
Oh.
21:37
< jerith>
*languages
21:37
< Namegduf>
JIT messes it up completely.
21:37
< jerith>
Is Java a compiled language?
21:37
< jerith>
If so, then so is Python.
21:38
< jerith>
You can even distribute a Python app without the source, although it's a bit yucky.
21:38
< celticminstrel>
All scripting languages are interpreted, but not all interpreted languages are scripting languages, right?
21:38
< jerith>
What is a "scripting" language?
21:38
< Namegduf>
Depends on your definition of scripting language.
21:39
< Namegduf>
Generally, "only if being interpreted is part of your definition".
21:39
< jerith>
There used to be a wider gap between C and bash, to pick an example of each.
21:39
<@Vornicus>
Usually when I hear "scripting language" I think of domain-specific languages that are embedded in larger programs.
21:39
< Namegduf>
Me too.
21:39
< celticminstrel>
From wikipedia, I gleaned that scripting language generally means a language embedded in -- yeah, what Vornicus said.
21:39
< jerith>
bash is very definitely a "scripting language" in the original sense.
21:40
< jerith>
You *really* don't want to write more than a few tens of lines in it.
21:41
< jerith>
But even the "embedded in a larger app" distinction is blurry.
21:41
< jerith>
Consider lua.
21:41
<@Vornicus>
Lua is very often used embedded. But it can also be used all by itself.
21:42
< gnolam>
jerith: Chalain has a blog?
21:42
< jerith>
Precisely.
21:42
< jerith>
gnolam: I discovered his new one yesterday. But now I can't remember the URL.
21:42 * jerith fires up greader.
21:42
< gnolam>
In the special edition, greader fires up jerith first.
21:43
< celticminstrel>
Python can be embedded too though, right?
21:43
<@Vornicus>
Yep. It's done less often though.
21:43
< celticminstrel>
So yes, it is blurry.
21:43
< celticminstrel>
I'd probably do it. <_<
21:43
< jerith>
http://www.heartmindcode.com/blog/
21:43
<@Vornicus>
http://www.heartmindcode.com/blog/ <--- this, jerith?
21:43 * Vornicus is beaten.
21:43
< celticminstrel>
XD
21:43
< jerith>
Vornicus: That's the one.
21:44
< celticminstrel>
What was the reason for that link?
21:44
< gnolam>
Danke.
21:45
< jerith>
celticminstrel: See the start of this conversation. :-)
21:45
<@Vornicus>
http://www.heartmindcode.com/blog/2010/05/create-your-own-programming-language/ <--- jerith was discussing the thing referenced in this post.
21:45
< jerith>
Also, this is the ...
21:45
< jerith>
Yeah, I was about to post that link.
21:45
< celticminstrel>
Ah.
21:45
< celticminstrel>
The thing that you were quoting just before I said something.
21:46 * Vornicus wins!
21:47 * ToxicFrog eyebrows at the first line of that. I need to be writing my own language? Really?
21:47
< jerith>
ToxicFrog: You are already, aren't you? ;-)
21:50
< ToxicFrog>
Not really, unless you count DSLs created by mutating existing languages using their metaprogramming facilities.
21:51
< jerith>
How mute are you tating them?
21:52
< ToxicFrog>
Depends, but usually not very.
21:52
< ToxicFrog>
(and my other language is a LaTeX knockoff)
21:53
< celticminstrel>
DSL?
21:53
< jerith>
Domain Specific Language.
21:54 gnolam [lenin@Nightstar-38637aa0.priv.bahnhof.se] has quit [[NS] Quit: Z?]
21:54
< jerith>
sed and awk are text-processing DSLs.
22:02
< celticminstrel>
Are they Turing-complete?
22:02
< jerith>
You can shell out in awk, at least, so it is.
22:03
< jerith>
I /think/ sed might be too, but I wouldn't put money on it.
22:03 Zed [Zed@Nightstar-556ea8b5.or.comcast.net] has quit [Client closed the connection]
22:03 McMartin_ is now known as McMartin
22:06
< celticminstrel>
Is it logical to consider Turing-completeness to be a prerequisite for a (general, non-domain-specific) programming language?
22:07
< McMartin>
Yes.
22:07
< McMartin>
If you don't have it, you're hilariously underpowered.
22:07
< McMartin>
In fact, even for DSLs you should be careful to ensure you aren't accidentally Turing Complete
22:07
< McMartin>
Because, I mean, sendmail.cf is.
22:08
< McMartin>
IIRC, if/then/else and user-defined functions that take arguments and can call themselves will suffice.
22:08
< celticminstrel>
What's wrong with being accidentally turing-complete?
22:08
< McMartin>
People will use it to compute things.
22:09
< jerith>
Nothing, unless you're a configuration file format...
22:09
< celticminstrel>
XD
22:09
< McMartin>
And because you didn't intentionally think about it when you designed it, the result is fantastically, brain-meltingly ugly.
22:09
< McMartin>
And it will be your fault that it is.
22:09
< McMartin>
What I'm really saying is "go ahead and be Turing-complete, but for god's sake, do it on purpose."
22:10
< celticminstrel>
C++ templates come to mind. <_<
22:10
< McMartin>
Interestingly, Game Maker 8 does not become Turing Complete until you break out the script snippets, because those are the only ways to express recursion or free loops.
22:10
< McMartin>
Everything up to bounded loops it can handle with Legos.
22:10
< celticminstrel>
Script snippets?
22:11
< McMartin>
(My terminology, not theirs)
22:11
< McMartin>
It's "designed for non-programmers", or so they say
22:11
< celticminstrel>
So, disallowing recursion implies non-turing-completeness?
22:11
< McMartin>
Not *necessarily*
22:11
< McMartin>
But having it more or less guarantees it.
22:11
< celticminstrel>
Ah.
22:11
< McMartin>
The Lambda Calculus is turing-complete.
22:11
< McMartin>
So you build up programs by dragging actions over into a list of things to do in reaction to event X
22:11
< McMartin>
One of those actions is, basically, "execute this chunk of Totally Not JavaScript Honest"
22:12 Orthia [orthianz@Nightstar-8ee8c428.xnet.co.nz] has quit [Ping timeout: 121 seconds]
22:12
< celticminstrel>
Hehe.
22:12
< McMartin>
Once you bring that one in and its support mechanics, you're obviously a programming language.
22:12
< McMartin>
But you can get surprisingly far without it~
22:12
< celticminstrel>
I heard somewhere that ActionScript is basically JavaScript. Is that true?
22:12
< McMartin>
(It has, in Pascal terms, for but not while/repeat.)
22:12
<@Vornicus>
Not that there's anything particularly wrong with being Javascript. It's nice language that usually ends up attached to, well, web browsers.
22:13
< McMartin>
They're both implementations of the ECMAScript standard.
22:13
<@Vornicus>
celmin: ActionScript is an EC... dammit
22:13 * Vornicus keeps losing.
22:13
< McMartin>
I believe but am not positive that GML is not really ECMAscript. Someone better at both would have to study it.
22:13
< celticminstrel>
The samples on the ActionScript Wikipedia page don't quite look like my experience with JavaScript though.
22:13
< McMartin>
In particular, it doesn't seem to really have dictionaries, but I think you can fake them with objects.
22:13 * Vornicus gets around to downloading GM8.
22:13
< celticminstrel>
JavaScript doesn't have dictionaries.
22:13
< McMartin>
That's because core JS is very, very small and you're comparing the libraries they're linking against.
22:14
<@Vornicus>
McM: in JS, objects and dictionaries are really the same thing.
22:14
< McMartin>
Hm. Does it have inline definitions of objects?
22:14
< celticminstrel>
No, it was things like variable declarations that looked a bit different.
22:14
< McMartin>
I don't know how flexible ECMAscript is in terms of syntax.
22:14
<@Vornicus>
It does; they look rather a lot like python dictionaries, but you can use names and they aren't resolved.
22:15
<@Vornicus>
so {a: 1, b: 2} is the same as {"a": 1, "b": 2} no matter what a and b are outside the object.
22:15 * McMartin nods
22:15
< celticminstrel>
I usually use 'var name;' to declare a variable, but the code samples on the ActionScript page are 'var name:type;'.
22:15
< McMartin>
GML lacks the language for that but I believe that given a suitable environment it can simulate it.
22:15
< ToxicFrog>
[]]]]]]]]==ws\
22:15
< celticminstrel>
I dunno if that's just an optional extra that JavaScript also supports.
22:15
<@Vornicus>
\o/
22:15
< McMartin>
Or something that's optional in the standard.
22:15
< celticminstrel>
...wait, JavaScript has dictionary syntax?
22:16
< McMartin>
It's exactly Pascal syntax, though.
22:16
<@Vornicus>
celmin: it has object/dictionary literals, yes.
22:16
< McMartin>
(The type thing. var x:integer; is straight out of Pascal)
22:16
< McMartin>
It's 2 PM. I should get lunch.
22:17
< jerith>
Hello PoisonedKitty.
22:17
< celticminstrel>
For some reason, when I took my "data structures" course, we used dictionaries to simulate objects. This is in Python.
22:17
< McMartin>
(GML lets you create new object fields by assigning to them, and you can interrogate them by key-as-string; that sounds close enough to dictionary semantics that I suspect it could be used that way.)
22:17
< McMartin>
celticminstrel: A dictionary with callable values is a perfectly acceptable implementation of a vtable.
22:18
< jerith>
(A cat that's in close proximity to ToxicFrog must be poisoned, right?)
22:18
<@Vornicus>
in js: foo.a = "bar" and foo["a"] = "bar" are the same thing.
22:18
< celticminstrel>
True.
22:18
< celticminstrel>
But I couldn't help wondering why they didn't just use Python classes.
22:18
< McMartin>
It's not the most efficient implementation, but it does make multiple inheritance easier to define and it has a few other advantages, especially if your mechanism is duck typed.
22:18
< ToxicFrog>
On the other hand, doesn't python (unlike JS and lua) have a dict/object distinction?
22:18
<@Vornicus>
and by "perfectly acceptable" he means "Javascript does this"
22:18
< McMartin>
Probably so you can see the wires.
22:18
< celticminstrel>
Though, the "object-oriented programming" class was later and used Java.
22:18
<@Vornicus>
Python does.
22:19
< jerith>
celticminstrel: I once independently reinvented OOP by sticking function pointers in Pascal "records". (They're basically equivalent to C structs.)
22:19
< celticminstrel>
I know what Pascal records are.
22:19
< McMartin>
To really get classical OOP, jerith, you also have to have those functions take the record itself as one of its arguments.
22:19
< celticminstrel>
I saw Pascal sample code in... probably Inside Macintosh or something?
22:19
<@Vornicus>
<3 functions as first class objects.
22:20
< McMartin>
In C and at least ordinary Pascal, functions aren't first-class. You merely can take their address.
22:20
< jerith>
McMartin: They did. They were there to manipulate the data in the records.
22:20 * McMartin once set up a usable OO discipline for C64 assembler.
22:20
< Namegduf>
Why
22:20
< McMartin>
The vtable was itself executable code. It was awesome.
22:22
< simon_>
I had a question which was: Are all prepositional logic clauses equivalent to some Horn clause? I then read a little and found out that HORNSAT is P-complete, which makes me want to ask another question that I haven't articulated yet.
22:23
< McMartin>
P-complete? Then no.
22:23
< McMartin>
Because 3SAT is NP-complete.
22:24
< McMartin>
(Which is 3-term Conjunctive Normal Form).
22:24
< jerith>
Do you mean propositional logic?
22:24
< simon_>
yes.
22:25
< jerith>
That's very, very limited. It's basically Boolean algebra with existential qualifiers.
22:25
< McMartin>
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boolean_satisfiability_problem#3-satisfiability
22:25
< simon_>
no, that's predicate logic. propositional logic is without existential qualifiers, at least according to my Logic for Computer Scientists book.
22:26
< McMartin>
I believe he means implicit existential quantification.
22:26
< McMartin>
p->q being secretly "Ep:Eq:p->q"
22:26
< simon_>
alright.
22:26
< McMartin>
But yes, once you add being allowed to put in your own quantifiers, you jump to... PSPACE, IIRC.
22:26
< jerith>
I'm probably getting confused. It's been quite a while since I looked at that stuff.
22:27
< simon_>
hmm.
22:28
< simon_>
McMartin, why does 3SAT being NP-complete imply that finding if there is a Horn clause equivalent to a given non-Horn clause is NP-complete? because there are no shortcuts to comparing truth tables in all cases?
22:28 * TheWatcher tries to wrap his headbones around ffmpeg's command line
22:29
< simon_>
TheWatcher, good luck with that.
22:29
< simon_>
TheWatcher, I had a job once consisting of just that, and I was never really satisfied. :)
22:29
< jerith>
It's even worse than imagemagick.
22:30
< simon_>
I'm impressed that youtube's encoding isn't crappier considering how hard it is to make ffmpeg's encoding look nice.
22:32
< simon_>
McMartin, I don't mean to ask too many questions here. my lecturer couldn't come up with a quick answer and apparently hadn't read his (borrowed) slides (in which those questions were asked as curiousities at the end)
22:33
< McMartin>
simon: Well, no known.
22:33
< McMartin>
I've never dealt with Horn clauses, but as a rule, unless you can prove that you're in a special case, any satisfiability problem is going to be exponential worst-case.
22:33 * jerith heads to bed.
22:33
< jerith>
I'll fiddle with my language some more tomorrow.
22:33
< simon_>
McMartin, good..
22:33
< jerith>
Also, it needs a name.
22:33
< simon_>
jerlang
22:34
< simon_>
wait, did you mean a good name?
22:34
< jerith>
simon_: That's my "mucking about with Erlang's parse trees" project. :-)
22:34
< simon_>
shoot, I'm not even original.
22:34 * McMartin is out to a housewarming, will be back later tonight.
22:35
< simon_>
hehe
22:35
< simon_>
alright
22:35 * simon_ goes to bed.
22:35
< jerith>
It's a toy. I might throw the repo up somewhere public, but it's not intended to be anything actually usable.
22:35 * simon_ wants to toy with real compilers soon.
22:35
< jerith>
Therefore, crap names are fine as long as I don't dislike them.
22:35
< McMartin>
It appears from that wiki article I linked that HORNSAT is equivalent to 2-SAT.
22:36
< McMartin>
I think the last "language" I wrote was a little declarative thing that would let me organize my IFcomp reviews.
22:37
< jerith>
I've mucked about with Erlang parse trees and I rewrote a mathematical expression parser for an IRC bot. This is by far the closest I've ever gotten to writing a "real" language.
22:38
< jerith>
Actually...
22:38
< jerith>
I'm tempted to write a parser that generates Erlang parse trees now.
22:38
< McMartin>
Backends suck, avoid them~
22:38
< simon_>
a friend of mine wrote a parser combinator library in Standard ML.
22:38
< jerith>
I like Erlang's semantics, but the syntax is problematic.
22:39
< jerith>
simon_: It's easy to do in a functional language.
22:39 * McMartin <3 Parsec.
22:39
< simon_>
yeah, but it is really cool.
22:39
< jerith>
I've used PyParsing, which is based on Parsec.
22:39
< McMartin>
Prelude> :t (<3)
22:39
< McMartin>
(<3) :: (Num a, Ord a) => a -> Bool
22:40
< simon_>
haha
22:40
< jerith>
Due to syntax issues, PyParsing code gets pretty ugly beyond a very small grammar.
22:41
< jerith>
Actually, I wrote Rolo's dice syntax parsing in PyParsing as well.
22:41
< simon_>
- curry op <3;
22:41
< simon_>
> val it = fn : int -> bool
22:41
< jerith>
I might rewrite that (the IRC side, at least -- gwave's dead) in PLY.
22:42
< jerith>
Although I'll probably do it as an Eridanus plugin this time.
22:43
< jerith>
But it really is bedtime now.
22:43
< jerith>
G;night.
22:43
< McMartin>
My old 2005 project is the most "respectable" compiler work I've done.
22:43
< simon_>
only thing I ever did was some extensions to a reversible language as part of a course.
22:44
< Namegduf>
I think Google Wave's replacement is much better, myself.
22:44 * Vornicus goes through the Game Maker tutorial.
22:44
< Namegduf>
They added a little IRC-like chatbox to Google Docs.
22:44
< celticminstrel>
IRC-like?
22:44
< Namegduf>
In the means of display.
22:44
< McMartin>
Vorn: EXPLODING FRUIT
22:44
< Namegduf>
Name, then message, no large images or other formatting things.
22:53 * Vornicus clicks apples! ^_^
22:56
< ToxicFrog>
TheWatcher: use mencoder instead, seriously
22:56
< ToxicFrog>
It's still terrible, but less terrible.
22:57 * ToxicFrog 's video processing pipeling is all mencoder except for the muxer.
22:58
<@TheWatcher>
Will mencoder output H264/AAC .flv files?
23:00
<@TheWatcher>
Hm, looks like it might
23:00
< ToxicFrog>
It will do H.264 and AAC (and in fact that's what I'm using it for).
23:01
< ToxicFrog>
It doesn't do FLV unless that's part of the lavf muxer, which is why I use mencoder to generate the final video and audio streams and pipe it to ffmpeg for the final mux.
23:02
< ToxicFrog>
Which is pretty painless: ffmpeg -i foo.h264 -i foo.aac -r 30 foo.flv
23:02
<@TheWatcher>
It does appear to be, according to the documentation*
23:03
< ToxicFrog>
The documentation is, to put it bluntly, shit.
23:03
< ToxicFrog>
That said, I've yet to observe it to be incorrect.
23:03
<@TheWatcher>
Yes, my * was going to be a comment on my initial impression of it
23:03
< ToxicFrog>
Just incomplete, vague, and poorly laid out.
23:04
<@TheWatcher>
And since this is the mplayer guys, pointing that out probably results in a torrent of abuse~
23:05 * TheWatcher shrugs, will give it a try
23:05
<@TheWatcher>
Can't hurt
23:05
<@TheWatcher>
much
23:28 Tarinaky [Tarinaky@Nightstar-f349ca6d.plus.com] has joined #code
23:39
< ToxicFrog>
Ok, I'm quite impressed with PlayOnLinux.
23:43
<@TheWatcher>
Oh?
23:51
< Tarinaky>
ToxicFrog: What's the diff between POL and WINE?
23:52
< ToxicFrog>
POL is a Wine frontend.
23:52 You're now known as TheWatcher[T-2]
23:52
< Tarinaky>
Ahah,
23:52
< ToxicFrog>
It maintains seperate wine configurations for each thing, and has pre-rolled installers+configurations for a lot of stuff.
23:52
< ToxicFrog>
So far I've installed Steam (which had a precofiguration) and Geneforge 2 and Total Annihilation (which did not) through it, and all of them worked flawlessly.
23:53
< ToxicFrog>
(it also has a thing for maintaining multiple parallel installs of different wine versions)
23:54 You're now known as TheWatcher[zZzZ]
--- Log closed Sun Sep 19 00:00:44 2010
code logs -> 2010 -> Sat, 18 Sep 2010< code.20100917.log - code.20100919.log >
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