| --- Log opened Thu Jul 15 00:00:53 2010 |
| 00:01 | < PinkFreud> | heh |
| 00:02 | < PinkFreud> | Namegduf: ick. the 5212 is a 54g chipset, no n. |
| 00:02 | < Namegduf> | Yeah. |
| 00:02 | < Namegduf> | It's from before n. |
| 00:02 | | * PinkFreud nods |
| 00:03 | < RichardBarrell> | Oh what the holy FUCK but CPUs are fast. |
| 00:03 | < RichardBarrell> | Er, GPUs. |
| 00:03 | < PinkFreud> | er, yes. |
| 00:03 | < RichardBarrell> | CPUs too but they're merely ridiculous at floating-point these days rather than actually "fuck off, what?". |
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| 00:17 | < PinkFreud> | ahhh, yes. hong kong seller on ebay - return policy is 14 days, shipping time is 10-20 days. |
| 00:17 | < PinkFreud> | riiiiiight. |
| 00:20 | < RichardBarrell> | "It's not like people will suddenly stop respecting you or anything" has gone to be one of the classiest putdowns I've read yet. |
| 00:20 | | * PinkFreud snerks in RichardBarrell's general direction |
| 00:34 | < RichardBarrell> | Ahahahah, the same thread also has "(I can't imagine what a disappointment you were to him, although I have the maths to describe it)". |
| 00:35 | <@McMartin> | Man, what units of disappointment do you apply scientific notation to there |
| 00:38 | < RichardBarrell> | I think a cardinal, equal to the number of disappointed sighs required to diffuse all of the pent-up frustration accrued over the course of an average week. |
| 00:38 | < RichardBarrell> | In this case, we're looking at something round about aleph-aleph-aleph-one. |
| 00:43 | <@McMartin> | That sounds like you need to deal with the continuum hypothesis which means you don't have the maths for it~ |
| 00:43 | <@McMartin> | Better to use iterated powersets of alephnull directly |
| 00:43 | < RichardBarrell> | :D |
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| 00:46 | < simon_> | I have no idea what you are talking about. |
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| 01:41 | < Tarinaky> | http://bc.tech.coop/blog/images/emacs-fingers.png << :D |
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| 02:01 | < RichardBarrell> | Tarinaky: I have that. :) |
| 02:02 | < Tarinaky> | I can't sleep. That and I have no self-esteem anymore. |
| 02:02 | < RichardBarrell> | Awwww. |
| 02:02 | < RichardBarrell> | Gotta go, falling asleep while I type. |
| 02:03 | < Tarinaky> | Bye. |
| 02:03 | | * RichardBarrell pats Tarinaky onna head. |
| 02:03 | < RichardBarrell> | Night' |
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| 13:53 | | * Tarinaky grumbles. |
| 13:53 | < Tarinaky> | I feel totally lost looking at my roguelike codebase now :/ |
| 13:57 | <@ToxicFrog> | Commenting failure? |
| 13:57 | < Tarinaky> | Dunno. I understand the different bits. |
| 13:57 | < Tarinaky> | I just dunno where to start advancing it :/ |
| 13:57 | < Tarinaky> | There're so many stubs. |
| 13:59 | < Tarinaky> | Plus I think the number of files in the project is starting to make my text editor get clunky. |
| 14:01 | <@TheWatcher> | So use emacs~ |
| 14:02 | < Tarinaky> | http://bc.tech.coop/blog/images/emacs-fingers.png |
| 14:02 | < Tarinaky> | I dunno if I should wrap it up and start a new project or not :/ |
| 14:02 | <@TheWatcher> | Bah! |
| 14:03 | < Tarinaky> | I really don't know what I'm doing >.< |
| 14:03 | <@TheWatcher> | Could start over |
| 14:03 | < gnolam> | ... having many stubs is usually an advantage in those situations. If you can't think of anything else to do, just fill out the stubs! |
| 14:04 | < Tarinaky> | I don't know what to fill out the stubs with! |
| 14:04 | < Tarinaky> | I'm at the point where I'm filling out stubs with stubs. |
| 14:05 | < Tarinaky> | This, to me, says I've got a problem. |
| 14:05 | < gnolam> | ... yes. |
| 14:06 | <@ToxicFrog> | Tarinaky: what editor _are_ you using, that it's getting clunky? |
| 14:06 | < Tarinaky> | Geany. I can't really think of a more graceful way of doing it though. |
| 14:06 | < Tarinaky> | Short of having it write the code for me. :/ |
| 14:08 | < gnolam> | When you put in a stub, you do so for a reason: you have some sort of design, develop against that design, and want everything to compile while doing so. |
| 14:08 | < Tarinaky> | Yes. I know. |
| 14:08 | < Tarinaky> | I don't have a design anymore. I've slept since then :/ |
| 14:10 | <@ToxicFrog> | ...that's why you write down the design. |
| 14:10 | < Tarinaky> | I never had a clear design. I didn't really know what I was doing >.> |
| 14:11 | <@TheWatcher> | So start over again, and this time you'll be able to come up with a slightly more informed design, maybe |
| 14:18 | < Tarinaky> | :/ Not really. |
| 14:23 | < Tarinaky> | I seem to be incapable of making the leap from knowledge of the language to actually managing and completing a non-trivial project :/ |
| 14:32 | <@TheWatcher> | Well, try something smaller than a rogue-like (which can actually get quite big and complicated) |
| 14:33 | < Tarinaky> | I'm kinda struggling to come up with anything though. RPGs were some of the first computer games made after all :/ |
| 14:33 | | * TheWatcher shrug |
| 14:34 | < Tarinaky> | And I certainly wasn't trying to reimplement nethack or *band. |
| 14:34 | <@TheWatcher> | Well, the last project I get my students to do is a lift simulator, might be worth trying something like that to start with. |
| 14:34 | < Tarinaky> | I have no idea what that is :/ |
| 14:36 | <@TheWatcher> | Building with N lifts, each of which may go at different speeds, and M floors in the building. Some shafts only cover parts of the building. Allow lifts to be called, you need to pick th ebest lift to serve each call, and move them about, include movement time, realistic delays for opening, waiting, closing... |
| 14:37 | <@TheWatcher> | Basically, you write an interactive simulation of the lifts in a skyscraper. It's not a game, but it does require a fair amount of thinking to make it work properly |
| 14:46 | < Tarinaky> | I have no idea how to approach that :/ |
| 14:47 | <@TheWatcher> | fling me an email address, and I'll mail you the project description |
| 14:48 | <@TheWatcher> | That gives you a more complete description, and somewhere to start from |
| 14:48 | < Tarinaky> | tarinaky@gmail.com |
| 14:49 | <@TheWatcher> | Okies, give me a few |
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| 15:12 | < Tarinaky> | Also annoying thing is I can't find Game Programming Gems on Amazon :/ |
| 15:15 | <@TheWatcher> | huh, odd |
| 15:16 | | * TheWatcher eyes the person selling a copy for £122 |
| 15:17 | <@TheWatcher> | Oh, that's why - "out of print" |
| 15:18 | <@TheWatcher> | That... rather sucks |
| 15:20 | < Tarinaky> | Yah. |
| 15:22 | < Tarinaky> | Holy crap. Art of Computer Programming vols 1-3 are on ebay for £30 |
| 15:22 | | * Tarinaky bids >.> |
| 15:23 | < Tarinaky> | >.> need to be careful. |
| 15:23 | < Tarinaky> | ebay will sap away all my precious moneys~ |
| 15:30 | < gnolam> | So how much more than £30 is is ">.>"? |
| 15:31 | < gnolam> | I'm surprised you even get to bid non-numeric amounts!~ |
| 15:31 | < celticminstrel> | XD |
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| 15:58 | < Tarinaky> | I bid £32. Postage is another £9.50. |
| 15:58 | < Tarinaky> | I'm looking to see what the auction is on now. |
| 16:00 | | * Tarinaky starts thinking about a single lift in a two-story building and has a crack at the problem. |
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| 16:11 | < Tarinaky> | Hmm... You can use switches to evaluate enumerations in C++ can't you? |
| 16:11 | | * Tarinaky thinks a switch would be neater than an if-then-else staircase >.> |
| 16:15 | < gnolam> | Yes. enums and switches are made for each other. |
| 16:15 | <@ToxicFrog> | Yes. Enums are just ints underneath. |
| 16:15 | < Tarinaky> | Just checking. |
| 16:16 | < gnolam> | But with a switched enum instead of a regular int, the compiler can check that you're actually covering all cases. |
| 16:28 | < Tarinaky> | Well. I've got a v.simple version of the lift done :x |
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| 17:01 | < Tarinaky> | So if I have a set of integers. How can I find the biggest number of that set less than X? |
| 17:01 | < Tarinaky> | lower_bound and greater_bound both seem dedicated to returning numbers greater than X. |
| 17:04 | < gnolam> | Iterate through, keep track of the highest qualifying integer so far. |
| 17:05 | < Tarinaky> | Doesn't that defeat the point of using a set? |
| 17:05 | < Tarinaky> | Since iterating through would be depth-first./ |
| 17:07 | < Tarinaky> | (Sets in C++ are implemented as trees. I would like to take advantage of this.) |
| 17:07 | < gnolam> | Arrrgh. |
| 17:08 | < gnolam> | There's a difference between "I have a set of integers" and "I have an std::set of integers". |
| 17:08 | < Tarinaky> | Yes. Sorry. I fouled up. |
| 17:08 | < Tarinaky> | So if I have a std::set of integers. How can I find the biggest number of that set less than X? |
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| 17:37 | <@ToxicFrog> | Do std::sets have a reduce method? If so you could use that. |
| 17:38 | <@ToxicFrog> | Oh wait, you want it faster than O(n). |
| 17:38 | <@Derakon> | Not that I have much context, but faster than O(n) and sets implies to me you need something that works with a group of data, which in turn implies to me you probably need a sorted datastructure of some kind. |
| 17:42 | <@Derakon> | You know it's been too long since you last did a commit when your commit message is 3683 characters (60 lines). |
| 17:43 | <@ToxicFrog> | Derakon: stl::set. Internally it's a sorted tree. |
| 17:44 | <@Derakon> | Ah, I wasn't aware of that. |
| 17:44 | <@Derakon> | I kinda assumed that most set implementations used hashmaps. |
| 17:45 | <@ToxicFrog> | Tarinaky: looks like std::set has bidirectional iterators, so you can go: |
| 17:46 | <@ToxicFrog> | iter = myset.lower_bound(x); biggest_less_than_x = *(--iter); |
| 17:47 | <@ToxicFrog> | Derakon: this is STL, leave sanity at the door~ |
| 17:48 | <@Derakon> | Ah, pointer arithmetic. |
| 17:48 | <@Derakon> | Where C starts to look like Perl golf~ |
| 17:49 | <@ToxicFrog> | That's not actually pointer arithmetic. |
| 17:49 | <@ToxicFrog> | The STL iterator class overloads ++ and -- to next and prev, and * to get-value |
| 17:49 | <@Derakon> | Oh, wait, you're right. |
| 17:49 | <@Derakon> | I didn't read it very carefully. My apologies. |
| 17:49 | <@Derakon> | (I almost typoed "apoloogies", which I would assume is some kind of backhanded apology?) |
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| 18:14 | <@Vornicus-Latens> | Set I don't know if you /can/. A sorted list you can do using a bisection run. |
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| 18:20 | | * TheWatcher readsup, notes that 'apoloogies' are apologies applied when working in OOP |
| 18:20 | <@TheWatcher> | >.> |
| 18:37 | <@ToxicFrog> | Vornicus: see previous conversation; STL sets are ordered trees and you can use the lower_bound iterator to solve this in what is hopefully O(log2n) time. |
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| 18:52 | | * Vornicus read that afterwards, yes. |
| 18:52 | | * Vornicus couldn't figure out how to play with iterators. |
| 18:55 | <@Vornicus> | nyway the reason STL uses trees instead of hashes is that hashes require two methods, and unlike Python, the two methods for hashes aren't actually built for basic types so you'd have to do it every time. |
| 18:55 | <@Derakon> | Oh yeah, and you can't use duck typing in C/C++. |
| 18:56 | <@Derakon> | Though I suppose you could pass along a function that accepts your object and returns a hash of it. |
| 18:57 | <@Vornicus> | you need 1. hash() and 2. ==; tres only need < |
| 19:17 | <@Derakon> | Presumably your hash function returns an object that can be compared with ==. |
| 19:18 | | * Derakon eyes the microscope happily, as the guiUtils module is down to a mere 136 lines. |
| 19:18 | <@Derakon> | By way of comparison, when I first showed up it was 1118 lines. |
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| 19:20 | | * Derakon removes 14 unneeded imports. |
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| 20:18 | <@ToxicFrog> | Derakon: you already pass in an object that performs comparisons on your key type; it just defaults to < |
| 20:18 | <@ToxicFrog> | So yes, you could definitely do it with hashes, they just don't. |
| 20:23 | <@ToxicFrog> | And speaking of hashes, <3 scala.util.collection.mutable.Map |
| 20:40 | <@ToxicFrog> | <extempore> note to self: sudo killall launchd is not kind of like killall inetd. |
| 20:55 | | * Derakon returns from getting exsanguinated. |
| 20:56 | < Namegduf> | Haha. |
| 20:56 | < AbuDhabi> | What did they replace it with? |
| 20:56 | < AbuDhabi> | Seeing as how you are alive. |
| 20:57 | <@Derakon> | Well, I stopped by Subway afterwards. |
| 20:57 | <@Derakon> | So, a footlong chicken sandwich with lettuce, tomato, pepper, onion, and olives. |
| 20:58 | < AbuDhabi> | I just ate supper, and now I'm hungry. |
| 21:07 | <@Vornicus> | Der: they punched out all your blood? |
| 21:08 | <@Vornicus> | and /then/ you ate a sandvich? |
| 21:08 | < AbuDhabi> | Damn Sidereal martial artists. |
| 21:09 | < AbuDhabi> | (They can punch people so hard they turn into ducks.) |
| 21:09 | <@Derakon> | Vorn: uh, yes. |
| 21:17 | <@Derakon> | ...my boss just asked me if, hypothetically speaking, we could add a fourth display to the cockpit computer. |
| 21:17 | <@Derakon> | Just watch, this time next year one entire wall of the room will be a giant LCD. ?.? |
| 21:20 | <@TheWatcher> | This is a problem?~ |
| 21:21 | <@Derakon> | Yes. I'll have to write UI widgets to use all of that space. |
| 21:21 | <@Derakon> | And we'll still be operating it from a distance of about two feet because the microscope room is tiny. |
| 21:22 | <@TheWatcher> | Hey, at least they haven't asked you to do a 3D holographic display |
| 21:22 | <@TheWatcher> | yet |
| 21:22 | <@Derakon> | Heh. |
| 21:22 | <@Derakon> | The raw data's too noisy to usefully show in 3D. |
| 21:35 | < Rhamphoryncus> | and that would stop them from asking for it? |
| 21:44 | <@Derakon> | Actually, my boss isn't entirely bullheaded~ |
| 21:49 | <@ToxicFrog> | Yay, dynamic loading. |
| 21:49 | <@ToxicFrog> | val test = new TextExpander(Class.forName(format).newInstance().asInstanceOf[Expanders]) |
| 21:49 | <@Derakon> | It's like an unholy fusion of Java and Lisp... |
| 21:49 | <@ToxicFrog> | Not far off~ |
| 21:49 | <@ToxicFrog> | This is Scala. |
| 21:50 | <@Derakon> | I guessed. |
| 21:50 | < Namegduf> | Is the part it took from Java the pointlessly excessively long lines? |
| 21:51 | <@ToxicFrog> | The part it took from Java is the JVM and the entire standard library. |
| 21:51 | < Namegduf> | Because damn, if that's variable declaration... |
| 21:51 | < Namegduf> | Ah. |
| 21:51 | <@ToxicFrog> | Most of that line is actually a call into Java's reflection subsystem. |
| 21:51 | <@ToxicFrog> | (to load a class by name at runtime, and then instantiate it) |
| 21:54 | <@ToxicFrog> | (specifically, new TextExpander(...) is what it looks like, Class.forName(format).newInstance() is the dynamic load, and asInstanceOf[Expanders] is a cast, since stuff returned by reflection has type ?) |
| 21:54 | <@Derakon> | For Jetblade, when I want to load a dynamic class, I require the module it's in to have a getClassName function defined, the results of which I pass to __import__() as the symbol I want to load from the module. |
| 21:54 | <@Derakon> | (So, first import to get the getClassName symbol, then import to get the actual class) |
| 21:54 | <@ToxicFrog> | ...I don't follow |
| 21:54 | <@Derakon> | A moment. |
| 21:55 | <@Derakon> | http://pastebin.starforge.co.uk/323 |
| 21:55 | <@Derakon> | Line one creates a Python "module" object with one entry: getClassName. |
| 21:56 | <@Derakon> | Line two calls getClassName and stores the result. |
| 21:56 | <@Derakon> | Line three creates a module object with one entry, which is the class definition. |
| 21:56 | <@Derakon> | Line four retrieves that definition. |
| 21:56 | <@Derakon> | I could actually probably do this better; this is just what I whacked out when I wanted to solve a particular problem in development. It hasn't warranted a revisit yet. |
| 21:57 | <@ToxicFrog> | Python: reaffirming my belief that dynamic loading is never pretty~ |
| 21:57 | <@Derakon> | Heh. |
| 21:58 | <@Derakon> | At least a call to __init__ is pretty much mandatory, but I suspect everything else could be cleaner. |
| 22:01 | <@ToxicFrog> | $ find . -name '*.scala' |
| 22:01 | <@ToxicFrog> | $ find . -name '*.scala' | wc -l |
| 22:01 | <@ToxicFrog> | 3 |
| 22:01 | <@ToxicFrog> | $ find . -name '*.class' | wc -l |
| 22:01 | <@ToxicFrog> | 23 |
| 22:01 | <@ToxicFrog> | I don't think I ever want to know how scalac works. |
| 22:01 | <@Derakon> | I don't follow how your first three lines there work. |
| 22:01 | <@ToxicFrog> | The first one was a stray \n. |
| 22:01 | <@Derakon> | Oh. |
| 22:01 | <@Derakon> | Righto. |
| 22:02 | <@ToxicFrog> | I was just hilighting the fact that three source files, containing three classes and one object, compile into 23 classfiles. |
| 22:02 | <@Derakon> | Yes, I got that. |
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| 23:12 | <@McMartin> | TF: At a guess, every closure template becomes a class |
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| 23:33 | <@ToxicFrog> | McMartin: yeah, I suspect that's what's happening |
| 23:33 | <@ToxicFrog> | And I use a lot of closures, so |
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| 23:38 | | mode/#code [+o Attilla] by Reiver |
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| --- Log closed Fri Jul 16 00:00:54 2010 |